Pay Now, Hunt Later???

S

sageadvice

Long Time Member
Messages
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I see where almost all Outfitters charge a huge booking fee and the rest due long before the hunt begins.

As a Licensed Construction Contractor, i would love to get all my funds for services rendered ahead of time but even though the thought is ludicrous, i fear that if that were to be the case, i might not always do the very best job possible in the best interests of my clients...get my drift?

Are you a guide-outfitter or a possible client and what are your thoughts?

Joey
 
Well sage,
Nothing wrong with getting a down/partial payment in todays world.
I think it's only good Business practice!
However,I'd never let a Full Payment play a part on my workmanship!
I think these guides are only protecting theirselves.
 
too many flakes in the hunting world....saying you'll be there with money in hand on the day of the hunt and actually showing up are 2 entirely different things.....




great post/pic, thanks for sharing

JB
497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
I beleive that the booking fee is used to buy supplies that may have to be paid for ahead of time for "Your Place" at the camp.

Use a Fly In hunt as a example.

pay for the plane fuel, the food,Horse feed, ect that has to be bought ahead of time before you arrive at camp wether you show up or not that the outfitter can not get back, things that have to be paid for in advance.

That is my thought on the Booking Fee money. now the rest of the money should be paid when you show up at camp/airport/hotel when you meet up.
 
I'm limited to 10% down payment by law on acceptance of the contract!

I don't believe i would be tempted either but then again, i'm not everybody out there and there are many examples of people not receiving services that they paid for. Paying in full in no way protects the client. I'm just wondering why they are willing to do so when it is not common practice in many other business deals.

Joey
 
Flakes? Yes, i agree...

nochawk, good points, thanks! I do question though, why not pay the balance at the end of the hunt?

Joey
 
Think about it sage.
Most outfitters are not huge by any means.
If they have just a few NO-SHOWS they've lost their Profit!
I don't blame them one damn bit for wanting full payment.
It would be no different in your Business if you got your 10% down payment,you completed all the work & they didn't pay you the other 90% (same kind of screwin)
Difference is Guides must be smarter than Plumbers and there ain't no way they're losing money,lol!
 
....and since it is such a short season, how can an outfitter refill the spots at the last minute??...he usually can't without a huge discount. Even then if the tags aren't over the counter it is impossible.

It really isn't hard to understand. I don't envy the outfitting business


great post/pic, thanks for sharing

JB
497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
One more thing sage,
Do you realize alot of these guides/outfitters buy the landowner tags long before they recover any money for re-imbursment?
I'll guarantee you sage,I hear people say all the time,damn them Deer Guides,Elk Guides,Bear Guides,lion Guides must be making millions.
Fact is,a Good Guide earns every penny & beats his equipment clear to pieces for his clients,not saying they all do,but the good ones do!
 
"Outfitters don't have the same ability to place a lien."

10 points!!! That makes major sense!

99% of the services i've rendered in my 5 years in business have been on a handshake but this is a small town in a big area where everybody knows somebody if not everybody so... i have yet to not be payed at least 100% on a job i've done.

Joey
 
Bessy, i don't believe this thread was intended to bring awareness of protection from the good outfitters out there.

Just the same, we all have costs of being in business, lots of costs, yet some get paid fully up front and i just can't see that.

Joey
 
Well sage,
Small towns do help,and you've been lucky.
Don't think I'm harping on you cuzz I'm not,but if you call me Bobcat one more time...............
 
Read & Think sage,think sage,read sage!
I've seen it happen many times.
I know it's gonna baffle you for a minute but think sage,think!
I've seen many non-refundable down payments placed on hunts,some jokers never finish paying the second part of the payment and never show up,yes it sounds weird,but there are people out there that do it,they throw the initial money out the window & leave the outfitter hanging,well unless the outfitter gets the second part of the payment he lost all profits,guaranteed!
 
Threatened you?
Just making examples sage so you can understand it.
Quit calling me Bobcat!
My name is Hellen if you don't want to call me HELL_ON_WHEELS

Listen sage,I take it you 100% trust everybody in the world,it would be nice if trust was that high & you are lucky to live/work where trust is that high,but I'm telling you the Truth sage,Outfitters do it to protect theirselves & I don't blame them one damn bit.
 
Joey, I get your drift. If a client pays up front before the hunt, he is totally at the mercy of the outfitter from that point on. If it turns out to be a bust, what recourse does a client have? The client is expected to put it all on the line up front. Mark my word, plenty of guys have been ripped off this way. We all know it.

Outfitters would work harder if they got 1/3 before the hunt, 1/3 at the start, and 1/3 at the end.

Not saying that there aren't outfitters you can trust. I know a few that I would pay 100% a year ahead of time and feel comfortable.

But I get your point, and agree.

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
 
I'll have to disagree with you eel.
Sure there are a few SHADY Jokers in all businesses.
Good Outfitters work hard right from the get-go.
If the whole World was 100% honest your 1/3,1/3,1/3 plan might work,but it ain't.
Do your homework & you won't be worried about up-front payments!
 
Thanks Eel, my point exactly!

Believe it or not, i already thought and knew of this other stuff mentioned from "you know who" before i ever posted this thread.

Joey
 
Let me ask you this sage?
Outfitters/Guides have always been a business that have been known to receive a tip if they gave their all,and as far as I'm concerned the tippage should be based on the Services/Overall Quality of the whole experience,Not just on rather Joe Blow killed a trophy,I also agree there are some out there that don't deserve a tip,like I've said many times,do your homework & that payment up front won't bother you at all.
 
Now that I think about this more, didn't someone around here recently get burned by paying an outfitter up front?
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-10 AT 07:44PM (MST)[p]HELL_ON_WHEELS, I agree, a client should do his homework. The outfitter can do some homework too! He can check on the background of a client, or should be able to. 2/3 payment should be enough to cover expenses.

All Joey was saying is that the client takes all the risk. That's true!

I've been taken before, that's why I get defensive. They got my money and then rolled over and played dead. And I had to way to make it right. I reported them but that didn't help me.

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
 
We, that visit this site, have a wealth of knowledge about outfitters just a few pm's away but average Joe out there does not. I believe many guys are mislead by the wonderful pamphlet pic's of monster deer and untold promises, our at least led to believe, that they too are going to get one if they pay the $$$ and hire this particular wonderful outfitter.

My thinking is that more outfitters would be up front of the actual "chance" to get a big trophy animal and put more emphasis on the "experience" if they were partially paid after the hunt because if everything went as described, the client could not dispute that it was indeed, a neat trip, even if he didn't get his trophy.

Also, there are just the ones out there that will promise the world, take your money, and put you with a inexperienced guide in a unproven or un-scouted area with little or no game. I know of this from several friends experiences, it does exist and there was no recourse...tuff luck fella, that's hunting.

Joey
 
Easy there Eel,
The Client ain't taking all the risk!
Check em out & relax.
Bet you done your homework the next time?
 
>HELL_ON_WHEELS, I agree, a client should
>do his homework. The outfitter
>can do some homework too!
>He can check on the
>background of a client, or
>should be able to. 2/3
>payment should be enough to
>cover expenses.
>
>All Joey was saying is that
>the client takes all the
>risk. That's true!
>
>I've been taken before, that's why
>I get defensive. They got
>my money and then rolled
>over and played dead. And
>I had to way to
>make it right. I reported
>them but that didn't help
>me.
>
>Ransom, $7000 was a good investment.
>I'm renting her out.
>
>Eel
>
>Know guns, know peace, know safety.
>No guns, no peace, no
>safety.


What $7,000 dollars?
 
Sage,
Not being smart but lets say you plan a trip to Vegas.
It's one of Vegas's busier times.
You must make reservations a few weeks in advance,you have to pay them in advance with your credit card,all of a sudden something comes up & you can't make it to Vegas even though you've got the room rented,it's too late to cancel,they're smacking your credit card,it's a little different with a motel,they might rent the room on short notice,but that don't work like that on a hunt,you can't grab a hunter on a spur of the moment,do you see what I'm saying?
 
Ransom, you been drinking? $7000????

H_O_W, I think Joey just explained the problem. There is no fool proof system of checks and balances. No amount of homework guarantees you won't get burned., client or outfitter.

Yes, if I ever hire another guide/outfitter I will do better homework. I'm still taking a risk with no way to re-coup if things go bad.

One problem is a hunt is an intangible thing. Plumbing you can see the work done and prove it. It's almost impossible to see if your outfitter did his job. It's objective and leaves room for interpritation. I see both sides really.

Joey is still right though. People work harder if they don't get paid in advance.

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
 
Well in some cases you're right eel.
But I know a few that give 110% no matter what,still doesn't guarantee anybody a trophy,theres alot of people that think just because they have money or have spent money they should be guaranteed a trophy,not always so.

Just so you know,after a fashion of the Outfitters/Guides getting burnt by NON-PAYING CLIENTS is why it's the way it is today,do you Eel & sage understand that part?
 
I would never pay more than 50% in advance. That way the risk is equal on both sides. I've heard as many stories of hunters being burned by outfitters as the other way around. I've even heard of fly-by-night outfitters using buddies for their references and then dissapearing. So even doing your homework doesn't guarantee anything. Also a guy (hunter or outfitter) may have been 100% legit before and this just happens to be the first time they burn someone.

50% in advance and the balance at the beginning of a hunt should be reasonable enough to anyone.
 
Cat or Helen, whaterever the hell your name is, i don't care what you are saying at this point.

You made your opinion clear and are backing it up with stuff that is already understood!!! Now, please don't be so thick headed and butt out!

Joey
 
OK,
That other item you've been talking about sage?
Lets see if you don't have to pay for it 100% in advance?
They ain't gonna let you try her out before she's paid for.
Does that agitate you also?
Or is that OK?
Remember,you're basing everything on performance right?
 
"Just so you know,after a fashion of the Outfitters/Guides getting burnt by NON-PAYING CLIENTS is why it's the way it is today,do you Eel & sage understand that part?"

H_O_W, I totally get that!

A plumber can file a lien if he doesn't get paid. A plumber can't make a client pay, but he can sure make a client wish he did! An outfitter/guide can't do that.

It's too bad there are bad apples on both sides.

Ransom, am I lost again? I get lost sometimes. That's why I need a guide.

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-10 AT 08:45PM (MST)[p]deadibob said, "50% in advance and the balance at the beginning of a hunt should be reasonable enough to anyone."

Deadi, saying that you would not ever pay in advance but then paying the balance due at the beginning of a hunt, is paying in advance, is it not??

PS; Overton, did you get your ticket money back? lol
We're good!!

Joey
 
IMO, its hard to compare plumbing to a hunt.

I am sure that "hunts" are many time booked from emotion, rather
than an immediate need. Someone may be excited about a hunt,
then get buyers remorse after. Wife, kids, bill, car broke down, etc.....

Then, the guide gets a cancellation and what is he supposed to do, 2 weeks before the hunt starts?

I would say a 10% non-refundable deposit should be due at the
time of booking. Then, 50% should be due 1-2 months before the start of the hunt (non-refundable).

Then, the guide will still have a chance to re-book the hunt to another customer, at a discounted rate.

I would think a more fair comparison would be booking hunts and
taxidermy work. Someone gets excited about an animal they harvest, then 3 or 4 months later decides to just bail out.

Just my opinion (for what its worth).
 
Ruff, Thanks for weighing in!!

I pretty much agree with all you said though you didn't quite give your thoughts on when that all important final payment should be made...before or after the hunt. Just as a note, i can't ever remember bailing out on anything that was hunting or fishing related. If i say i'm going to do something, jokes aside, i'm pretty much gonna do it and my word is good because of it.

It would be foolhardy of me to think anything that we say here is going to change the way things are being done. I've only used guides a few times in my life and they were mostly float trips for fishing. Still though, i read of and know of a few friends who have been burnt bad on muley and elk trips. I always wondered if it was "right" or why it didn't seem right to me, that the full payment was due in advance or on arrival of the actual hunt... and as i alluded to in my opening statement and Eel mentioned above,..

"People work harder if they don't get paid in advance."

Joey
 
"If i say i'm going to do something, jokes aside, i'm pretty much gonna do it and my word is good because of it"

Sage:

Too bad all people in business didn't operate this way.
I guess its like a car, you must pay before you hunt (or drive).

I agree with you however, that gives the guide more leverage. Unfortunately, my best advice would be to check ALOT of references.

BTW, if you ever hunt or fish N. Utah, look me up, I won't charge you a penny!
 
Sage asks for opinions and then bashes anyone that disagrees with his point.Never did see where H.O.W insulted your intelligence,so maybe I'm just stupid too,I guess.It's nice that you can trust people with a handshake where you live.Too bad the rest of the world doesn't work that way.Kinda sounds to me like you don't like outfitters to start with.Having gone on a few guided hunts,and done some guiding for an outfitter buddy,I can understand why they charge the way they do.My Nevada outfitter from last season didn't even ask me for the 2nd half of his payment at all.I gave it to him as we were breaking camp.He is probably in the minority,though.Maybe the 1/3-1/3-1/3 payment that someone mentioned above would be a better deal.Let me ask you,Sage,if someone gives you the 10% deposit,and later decides against having the work done,do they get the 10% back?Just wondering-NOT TRYING TO RUFFLE YOUR FEATHERS(which seems kinda easy to do!)!I do agree that a man is only as good as his word!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-10 AT 12:57PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-10 AT 12:08?PM (MST)

Nontyp, "Read & Think sage,think sage,read sage!
I've seen it happen many times.
I know it's gonna baffle you for a minute but think sage,think!"

i can maybe understand how you may see it the way you do i took the above message as insulting. This guy has done the same type thing on other threads and it's not the topic i feel he's disagreeing with so much, it's with me. The "threat" was in a post that was deleted-nuked. Also, i gave him plenty of space to voice his opinion but after the 4th or 5th replete, it got way old.

As i mentioned, most of my work is done on a handshake. If someone gave me a 10% deposit and then balked, usually i've got some hrs in the project and those hrs at my usual rate would be held against the deposit but the balance if any would be returned.

I have had two major, to me, projects that were scheduled to begin this month back out thru no fault of my own. I'm out not only the hours invested but the much needed income from these planned jobs...pretty much standard, the way it is, in the construction business.

Joey
 
I suppose that's the same reason the outfitters charge the booking fee(although I agree 50% NON-REFUNDABLE is pretty steep if a guy can't make the hunt).The outfitter I booked with in Nv does not make much money at it.He does it for the love of the hunt.While he's been encouraged by people to raise his rates,he doesn't want to exclude the working-class guy(me)from being able to go on these types of hunts.There is something to be said for that!I once hunted elk in NM with a guy(pretty famous outfitter)that over-books(or at least did back then).The unit I drew had been "shot-out" the year before(according to the guides in my camp).WTF??That was my bad for not researching a little more.My first guided hunt,so...This guy had pics of(and still does in Outdoor Life,etc.)BIG bulls.And they did kill big bulls of 370+ that year;just not in my unit.I definitely felt a little "ripped off"!Anyway,my point is,I guess you just never know.I think the outfitter is kind of put in a bad spot if he has a couple hunts cancelled at the last second,and can't re-book.I know that could be a hell of a hardship on the guy I hunted with in Nv;probably wouldn't faze the NM guy!BTW,I don't know what threat you are referring to...I didn't allude to that in my post.
 
It's really just about what the market will bear boys.99% of the outfitters require a sizable non-refundable deposit to book a hunt plus the rest upon arrival and that's that.As long as clients continue to book hunts under that arrangement that's the way it will be done.The bad apples in the outfitting business certainly take advantage of this arrangemnet that's for sure.

I can see the arguments of the fairness of it from both sides but since the market is what it is it's up to us hunters to check our outfitter/guides' references and reputation out thoroughly BEFORE we book since the risk is squarely on us.

CAVEAT EMPTOR!
 
Hey sage?
A threat?
I'm gong to have the Mods pull the Threat up for me.
Post # 18 was D13er's.
Post # 23 was overtons.
I don't remember who had Post # 38?
Never once did I threaten you.
You asked a question that kind of amazed me somebody like you would ask.
You asked the Question and you got some different answers,you didn't like most of the answers so all you want to do is argue & now say I made a threat,that's BULLCRAP!
I'm going to say it one more time:
Most Outfitters and Guides are tired of playing games with Clients,(not all Clients are Perfect Angels as yourself)all it takes is a couple of NO-SHOW Jokers that have only paid a down payment & it puts the Outfitters & Guides in a minus (in the hole) situation,do you understand what I'm saying?
There are Dis-Honest people on both sides sage,I'm not saying Clients don't get took,cuzz yes it happens,what I'm saying is even most refferable Outfitters have got tired of playing games & they do want most of their money up front,alot of them have been screwed over so many times they won't tollerate the BS anymore & I'll tell you one more time,I don't blame them one damn bit.

If you took one of my posts as a Threat you need to re-read them,don't say I made a Threat that was Nuked,there wasn't any Threats,and there wasn't any Threats Nuked.
 
Well shotgunjim,
Thanks to a good friend of mine it worked out way better than anybody could have expected for stinky.
The Guy/Guide I'm talking about has a BIG HEART and took over where 99% in his shoes would of said "screw it"
You won't find many Guy's like this anywhere & I don't care where you look.
Just so you all know,most of you already know,his name is slamdunk,a true sportsman that stuck his neck way out and manned up took care of business,I only know a very few that would'of pulled this off,yes We're proud of you slam & the others that were involved.
 
Yeah, you do that! Have the mods pull up post number 18 where you say, and i quote " Don't call me Bobcat, If you call me Bobcat one more time..."

Also have the mods pull up your IP address and compare it to those that have posted in this thread! They may find it interesting.

I posted this thread as a good topic for discussion between members. Many have posted their opinions and shed light on the subject. You though, have made it a personal thing that i don't quite understand and are doing your best to what, change my mind by bully tactics? I don't roll that way but that's beside the point. I find you vulgar and insulting and had thought of you as a friend. To say that i'm disappointed is an understatement!

Joey
 
sage,
You took that as a Threat?
Vulgar?
I guess while you're digging the Threats out you can find the vulgar stuff too?
I was thinking Post # 18 was D13er's,maybe I'm wrong?
Ya,have em pull the IP's up while you're digging everything else up too!
Ain't made nothing personal,tried explaining a few things to you & you still won't except the facts!
The World ain't perfect sage,I wish it was but it ain't,sure would be nice if all Guides & Outfitters could trust all the Clients but they can't,that's why they are wanting most/all their money up front,do you understand it?
 
Here's the thing...You did make your point clear...abundently clear to me, several times, over and over. But this is a forum, a topic for more that just your opinion but you don't get that. You seem to think it's all about you!
 
Ain't about me at all.
I posted the truth several times you just won't let it sink in sage.
It's your thread & several tried helping explain it to you,but I don't think you're listening?
You might not agree with the way the Outfitters/Guides run their Business sage & that's fine,my advice is go ahead & find you a Guide/Outfitter that suits yourself with the 1/3,1/3 & 1/3 payment plan if that's how you want to play?
But I can tell you one thing,there's a bunch of them not going to change their ways just because 'you' don't like the way they run their businesses.
 
Sage, myself being a construction contractor and a guide I see both sides.
First off once you show up for your hunt your guide, if he is any good has already invested most of the labor into the hunt in scouting and preperation. The hunting and guide world is beyond belief when it comes to cutthoats.
Let say you get half way into your construction job and I show up. I get out the nice photos of a few show houses I have built and tell the home owner I will give him a better job with higher quality fixtures for much less than what you are charging him. The home owner runs you off and has me finish his home putting you out of a job and sending you looking for work to fill the next 2 months. A month later you finally land another job. You start working on it and since I have just finished the last job you got screwed on I offer the same deal to your new client sending you packing again. Although this may sound a little far fetched in the construction business it happens all to often in the hunting world.
I see nothing wrong with paying 50% down at booking and the rest on arrival. If everyone was honest in their dealings it would not be a problem. Its kind of like pay before you pump.
Do your home work on the outfitter and why worry about it. Your going to pay it anyway. Good outfitters will not give you less of a hunt for paying up front. Their reputation rides on what they are killing and if they dont produce they dont book hunts.


--------------------------------------

"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
Nunya, Thanks for weighing in. After reading your post,. instead of hunt first and pay later, i should probably be thinking more along the lines of getting more for my construction work up front! :)

I've always been one to stick up for the little guy and yes we know how to do the pre-work in picking a outfitter but Joe blow that goes to his first sport show and signs up for a lousy, promised filled but outright scam of a hunt gets screwed with no recourse. To me, that is a lesson that should not have to be learned the hard way. I'm sure you see that side of it as well yet, as i said above, it would be foolhardy to think any change would come about because of this thread.

I too wish everyone was honest in their dealings! :)

Joey
 
sage,
Must take a big man to call somebody a moron?
Hard headed?
How bout you being THICK HEADED?
Read post # 56 sage & tell me an experienced guy in both fields just didn't tell you the same thing I've told you?
Come on sage,read it!
 
What sage?
You're not gonna jump NUNYA for telling you the same thing I told you ealier?
 
Good entertainment for the troops i guess. I hope Founder knows and is thankful for what i have had to deal with here, all in the name of a good time!! :) Aren't we lucky!!

Joey
 
I'll throw in another two cents worth here too.

We ask our clients to pay a 50% deposit upon booking the hunt, and to pay the remaining balance before the hunt begins. If they pay with a personal check it needs to be cleared two weeks before the hunt starts. Certified funds can be paid in camp when the hunt starts.

We have had 3 bad experiences over the last 5 years with clients that gave us rubber checks and killed an animal then left knowing full well the check was going to bounce. We had a heck of a time getting the money out of them, and it was way more hassle for us than if we had just made them bring certified funds, or pay in advance with the personal check.

The other experience was where a guy was with his buddies, and he decided he wanted to hunt as well. We let him hunt and he tagged a bull the second day of the hunt. He told us he'd send us payment as soon as he got home. Well, I didn't know if I trusted him, but I trusted his hunting partner and the partner told me he would make it right if his buddy didn't pay. That was good enough for me. Well, long story short, the guy didn't pay, and I spent 3 years trying to collect the $3,000 he owed me. I finally went to the buddy of his and asked him to pay up. He whined about it, but after a year he had payed me in full.

Outfitters want to guide hunts, not run collection agencies. I would rather lose a potential client because he is not willing to pay up front, than go through the scouting, hunting, and other expenses, and then after all that spend months or years trying to collect the money.


I own a taxidermy business and the same thing applies there too. I found out the hard way that if I let a customer leave my shop with his mounted animal without it being fully paid for, I run a very high risk that he will never pay for it, and to top it off, he will not have the balls to come back and bring any more business because he won't face me again to pay the bill on the first animal.

Policy now is a deposit up front of any amount. That means I'll take $50 bucks if that's all he's got, or several hundred if possible. That's on animals that are good ones that aren't likely to be left at my shop and abandoned. I take full payment on two point deer, and all tanning. I got stuck with 11 bison hides last year by two different groups of people. I paid for the tanning on all out of my pocket, and one group filed for bankrupcy, and the other got caught poaching and spent all his money on fines and told me "sorry I can't afford to pay you, so just sell the hides".
I will never again tan a bison hide without full payment up front. I also stopped letting customers take their mounts home without full payment 10 years ago. I lost too much money and too many customers because they wouldn't pay. I hold the mount till they get the money, or after a year I sell the mount if possible.

I know this may be more than you care to read, but it may answer a question or two.

DeerBeDead
 
Well I've read all of these now and here are my thoughts.

1. I think it is reasonable to want to have the hunt paid for (no bad checks) before the hunt begins.

2. You can check references and do research until your blue in the face and still get a bad outfitter and yes a bad client.

3. Once you pay the $'s you are hung out. Period. The outfitter may get reported but SO WHAT. I am doing that right now in Montana and I will bet that the licensing bureau doesn't do squat and the hunt was poor but that isn't the real problem. It was unprofessional and unethical bordering on illegal.

4. Many outfitters offer perspectives that are not attainable. They need to be honest about the animal quality. Then let the market determine how much it's worth. The good ones will raise to the top and the poor ones will sink.

5. All of this said you will get bad outfitters and clients that can't walk 100 yards. I have had mostly good exerpiences but 3 really poor ones with NO recourse. So guess what my recourse was. Nothing more than NO TIP. Not much else to do.
 
Like NUNYA said, the vast majority of the work is done before the hunter ever steps a foot in camp. Food is bought, camps been transported and set up, days, weeks and months of scouting and prep done, all that's left is the easy/fun part. Some good points made in relation to bad outfitters. I try and make it as easy as possible for the hunters to obtain information about our outfit. I WILL NOT allow a hunter in camp if he has not called references. I WILL NOT tell a hunter to shoot. That is his decision. That being said, we charge a $500 non refundable deposit if you book prior to the year you are coming. In January of the year you are hunting we require the remainder of a 50% deposit. The remainder of the hunt money is due mid June. You also have the chance to move your hunt to another year without paying a fee if something comes up. If you cancel by April 15th you will get all but the $500 back. If you cancel after the June 15th you lose the money you paid. I have NEVER had anyone cancel after June 15th. I will also give all of your money back if somebody books for the same price and takes your spot. We try to be as fair as possible. Once you get to June, pretty much everybody that wants a tag has one and it is really hard to book hunts after that without slashing the prices to the point you can't make enough money to pay the guide. When you buy an item from the store the markup is usually around 35-40%. As an outfitter, I don't make 30% profit on the tags and that's not taking into account the cost of supplies and wages. Most outfitters don't do it to make a living. It is definately not a get rich scheme.



It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Another Honest Outfitter/Guide,Yup it's AWHOLELOTTABULL.
I've always liked this guy,even if he does charge up front,lol!

So sage,what's not to like?
Do your homework,pick a Guide/Outfitter with a good reputation,pay him upfront or ever how he likes to be paid(cuzz you're gonna pay the price anyway)and go have fun & this/these guys will do their best and remember:It's Hunting,sure the 350"+ Bulls are nice,but it's not a Guarantee,do your best & be Happy with the whole hunt experience,not just the 400" Bull or 220" Buck that's been pounded in to everybodies head the last few years that you may not encounter,I hope you encounter it but it's still hunting,not quite perfected to just shooting/killing yet.

I'm not Harping on you sage,I like the Heck out of you,I'm just saying:these Guy's work hard & earn every penny,beat the crap out of all their equipment & when it's all said & done the didn't become millionaires overnight by guiding & dealing with the general public.

You already know sage,dealing with the Public is good for the most part,but as you already know there are BAD APPLES in all fields,the one thing to think about(and you to eel)when a so called Guide/Outfitter screws somebody over the word spreads/travels like wildfire & will lose all credibility/Business instantly,I think We've seen this happen right here at MM the last few years.
 
Although I do not have any personal experience with a guide....I would like to think I agree with most of what has been said; that the vast majority of work from a reputable guide, is done before the hunt ever begins. Ultimately, you are paying for a service...A "Guide Service;" not the animal.

Is their a risk? Of course there is, but if you're in it just for the size of the animal and not the experience and stories and camaraderie; then in general...YOU ARE HUNTING FOR THE WRONG REASONS!

To me, the pictures in their Brochures and on their Websites only represent what can be found anywhere with hard work and research....A Non-Typical result. I would like to think that if anyone was worth their weight as a hunter and researcher, even if the guide didn't fully do his work; the hunter could still find a decent animal (Remember, it should be about the experience etc, the animal is just a bonus). Even if not and the whole thing craps out, isn't that why we have things such as the Internet and GREAT Sites like Monster Muleys??? If you have a bad experience, you can blast the guide's reputation to a crowd of hundreds if not - THOUSANDS of their potential customers. Conversely, you can also get allot of honest feedback and scouting done on your potential guide through these same mediums....Google and the Internet are our friends!

That being said, here is another question for those of you with you own experiences and also those who act as guides:

If somone ends up puchasing one of those "Discounted Hunts" that the client either screwed the Guide on or just didn't show up even after paid; is that new Client going to have less work done for him due to the discourageing events that enabled him to purchase such a Hunt at such a Discounted Price? Also, what is the best way to find such hunts?


?-ERock-> ?
 
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and it seems like there are a lot of folks these days with good intentions.Good intentions don't put food on the table.I know if I was in the outfitting business, I'd cover my butt with an upfront deposit with the balance due 30 days before the hunt.
 
The last time I was on a guided hunt was before I "discovered" the internet. I can't even remember how I got the hunt set up, but I got a brochure from someplace. The brochure was loaded with photos of monster muleys. I looked at that brochure every day for weeks and finally called the outfitter and set up the hunt. I trusted everything he told me.

I wasn't looking for a guarantee! I just wanted to hunt hard at a place that had big bucks. No more, no less.

When I got there the outfitter took my final payment and left for parts unknown. My assigned guide laughed when I told him I was looking for something around 170-180.

My "guide" turned out to be a total drunk. Not one time did he ever accompany me out in the brush. He stayed at the truck and pointed where to look. Or he dropped me off and picked me up at dark. That part was fine really (not what I was told though).

Every morning I had to get the guide out of bed because he drank all night. One night he went to town and didn't get back to camp until noon the next day.

After the hunt I was pissed. I never was able to get ahold of the outfitter after that. The phone number I had was "no longer in service".

H_O_W, yes I've made some mistakes in my life. I will never trust my hunting dollars to another outfitter without doing my homework.

THE ONLY EEL WHO WISHES HE HAD MET hell_on_ wheels YEARS AGO!!!!

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
 
Agreed on the upfront money. No argument. The hunt should be paid for 2 weeks prior at a minimum to eliminate "flake" clients. I'm sure there are plenty!

On the other side where does my risk get curbed for flake outfitters. Not a guarantee of a certain size. I understand hunting. But as mentioned here I have also experienced a drunk, unprofessional, unethical and if not illegal, almost. No chance to get a PENNY back. So that's the problem for me. I pay 100% well well before the hunt date. I'm in good shape and I can see and spot as well as any guide I've ever hunted with and some of those were in the top 5%. I have done countless hours of research and checked references but you can still get a "flake" outfitter and your money is GONE. You can appeal all you want and blast them on the internet but the money is GONE. Don't give me lecture on DIY either. The draw system won't allow that if you want to hunt EVERY year. I can DIY with the best but not without a tag.

So I do everything I can and I have still been "fried" not burnt on 3 occasions and yes I have had many really good hunts where I didn't shoot anything but the outfitter was quality and worked hard the same as I did and I elected to not shoot.

Now how do I get any or part of my money back? The risk, if paid upfront, is all on the client!!!
 
I hear you eel.
Yes the bad apple can be on either side of the fence!
So?
You end up getting a Buck?
Did the ones you seen compare to the Brochure?
 
H_O_W, I saw two pisscutters and shot a $2500 coyote.lol I can laugh about it now.....sort of.

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
 
I hear you eel.
Well,sometimes we have to laugh,even when it's not funny,lol!
I think we've all been screwed over a time or two in life but getting screwed over on a vacation/hunt would even hurt the worst.

I think ole sage must of blowed his stack vent,lol!
The Outfitter 'Payment Plan' seems to bother him,just wondering sage if you've been worked over yourself by an Outfitter/Guide or if you just don't like the 'Upfront Payments'?
One thing to think about sage,a guy is gonna pay the money once you book with them,rather it be sooner or later,that money has nothing to do with how the hunt/experience turns out and you can't say: 'Well I ain't paying the final payment,you didn't get me in on a 400" Bull',well that's where TIPPAGE comes in,I believe an Guide/Outfitter should be Tipped on whether he gave his all or not,not because the hunter was expecting a world record animal and didn't end up getting him & now he's pizzed at all Outfitters.
Guides really like their Tips,and if he earned one I say dang sure give him/her one.

That's an expensive Coyote there eel,did you mount him?}>
 

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