Opinions regarding sheep dying because of domestics

W

WYGriz

Guest
I've seen a ton of threads on sheep hunting on MM, as well as wolves (in general), but I was curious to gauge your opinions regarding the biggest proven threat to wild sheep...domestic sheep and the diseases they spread. We've lost nearly 1,000 bighorns in the West due to pneumonia (can only be transmitted by domestics) since last winter, but you hear very little anger about that. Just thought I'd see what you all think.
 
My anger at wolves is the reintroduction of the larger northern wolves that follow migrating caribou. Timber wolves remain in a home range so if the prey fall in numbers then the wolves will decline in numbers. Migrating wolves that experience a fall in prey numbers simply lope over the next mountain ridge and find more prey. Repeat until reach Pacific Ocean and leaves behind a wake of dead zones.

Sickness from interaction with domestic animals is going to happen. People need food and it takes land to raise food. Buying up all land around a population of wild sheep to create a buffer zone is problematic due to amount of money that would be needed. Killing grazing rights from government land is also problematic since ranchers will be put out of business in some cases.
 
>the biggest proven threat to
>wild sheep...domestic sheep and the
>diseases they spread.


>due to pneumonia (can
>only be transmitted by domestics)


Those two quotes are the subject of much debate with "proven" being the kicker. I personally hate range maggots, but the people who own them I do not hate.

It's a very tough issue. It is very difficult to actually prove to all parties involved that a domestic sheep/bighorn sheep interaction is what causes a die off. There are always exceptions and always other factors involved that muddy the water. Best solution is to keep them separate but that is very hard to do sometimes. The sheep producers feel threatened by bighorn sheep and the bighorn sheep groups feel they have a right to see bighorns returned to their historic habitat. I have been interested and involved in this battle for well over 20 years and I still do not see a very palatable solution. It's sad but I think the real solution will only come when the economics of raising domestic sheep on rangeland become so bad that those people go out of business and that way of life is lost. Thats a very unfortunate situation.
 
It has been unequivocally PROVEN that domestic sheep transmit deadly disease to wild sheep. It CANNOT be disputed. The science is there and printed.

To accept wildlife death and displacement due to disease contracted from livestock is unacceptable today. We are more intelligent than that. The key is to remove domestic sheep from public land and find allotments on land where no interaction with wild sheep is possible. This MUST and WILL happen.

The domestic sheep industry is no longer viable. It has declined in production over 85% in the last 50 years. It's over-subsidized and not utilized to feed our population. The issues that "muddy" up the water are social/political coming from the wool grower lobby.
 
WYG, I'm not arguing with you. The science is there to MY satisfaction. But believe me, the sheep lobby, as you refer to them, continue to influence certain people in powerful places to discount that science and say it isn't proven. That bighorns die when exposed to the diseases of domestics is easy to verify. Put one of each in a pen and see which one dies. But that's not science to some.

I also agree with your assertion that the domestic sheep industry is not viable today, especially without incentives that have been paid in the past.

My point is, it isn't a matter of science. It's strictly political. That may change. But it's not happening overnight. As I said, this has been a hot button issue for decades. And your solution of removing domestics from the range has always been AN answer. But there has never been the stomach for that.

On this same subject, I personally believe that domestic goats are going to become the new "domestic sheep". Goats are becoming both popular and profitable as a means of fire and vegetation control. And goats are every bit as "dirty" as domwstic sheep and even harder to contain and control.
 
where I see wild sheep I have never seen domestic sheep. so to say they all get sick cause of domestic sheep is BS.

I cant stand domestic sheep and I cant stand throwing loads of money at a stupid wild animal that dies from a runnie nose either.


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Nets are for fish!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-10 AT 04:12PM (MST)[p]Wow! I don't think there is a single intelligent word there. Of course you don't see domestic sheep where you see wild sheep. Where there are domestics, there are no wild ones (because of disease). And I also wouldn't call pneumonia a "runny nose." Your observations are obviously much more credible than science and facts. Good for you.
 
WYGriz go back and read my post slowley since you are having a hard time understanding it.

I have plenty of experience with those wortless wild sheep. I see them every winter near my home and yes I have never seen a domestic sheep near them and yes they all have runny noses or what you call Pneumonia! they are also dropping like flies!

It sucks to see so much money shoved into a program that keeps failing/dying and then only have one guy be able to hunt them "maybe".

I think they are fine in some areas and I dont see a problem with them but to keep shoving money into a hole is plain idiotic.

I would rather see the money that is flushed into the sheep flushed into killing wolves/coyotes, and purchasing land to increase muledeer habitat.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Nets are for fish!!
 
And the plus side to that is that since you hate them so bad you would never try to draw a tag for them "wortless" animals so there is one less guy applying for sheep. :)
 
Im courious, Do domestic goats transmit disease to wild sheeep? Ive seen packers use them in sheep country and since the Nev die off I cant help but wonder. I kinda like the idea of pack goats.
 
Yes! Let's get the sheep rancher!
Next we can go after the cattle rancher.
Hell, let's just get to the root of the problem and get the ranchers!
End of problem!

Ya all are starting to sound like the enviros!
 
I would like to see the facts on the transmission of the disease, from the domestic to the wild sheep. Didn't some woman in Montana or Canada do a thirty year study on this debate, and she couldn't prove it for fact? I think this might be a myth, just like Global Warming. Some species are just weak hearts, maybe that's whats wrong with the wild sheep. You know, the domestics have been here for a couple hundred years now. And just remember, China will produce everything that the fickle Americans don't want to anymore. We can justify ourselves out of existance.

Thanks Brownie.
 
Don't know about that but I do know we had illegal immigrant poachers in the Angeles National Forest. Some "hunters" reported their hunting partner missing. Come to find out they were poachers and after killing a ram this fella fell off a cliff retrieving a downed critter. There were several heads next to where he left his rifle to retrieve his last prize. Several were collared by dfg previously and of course had lost it's tracking signal. Probably some rich white folk wanted a trophy the easy way. Maybe the sheep were just eating his grow operation.
 
There is another big predator out there on the big horn sheep. Large eagles & hawks are known for killing the young by harrassing them until they go over a cliff and the eagle feeds on the carcass.
This was why old Elmer Keith hated eagles and the bigger hawks and would shoot them in sheep country after he witness this on several occasions.

Do not even bring up the subject of shooting eagles, The bird loving crowd would hang you out to dry. They are as bad as the wolf loving crowd for protecting their favorite animal or bird of the day.

RELH
 
WOW!
Ya think?
I have a very good friend, in Weiser, Id. who's family has been running domestic sheep in Unit 32 & 22 for 150 yrs, plus or minus!
There were no bighorns, or should I say California Bighorns, in Hells Canyon, at the time they started! The wild sheep were gone!
50 +- years ago the Feds/state introduced the Calif. Bighorns into the Hells Canyon region, (Northern). My friend's family ran sheep in the mid region! The introduced sheep have moved into the northern part of the of the Mid region, so now my friend, has been through HOLY HELL, because HIS sheep are" SUPPOSOBILY" causing the "RE-INTRODOUSED" sheep to get ill and maybe die!
THAT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN! Those sheep very frequently get within 5 miles of each other, but the ENVIRO biologists that work for the FEDS, say that he and his sheep HAVE to go!
Good bye local businessman! Good bye to the annual co sponsor of several local charities. Good bye to another part of the AMERICAN way of life, in the West!
Some of you spend too much time behind your computer screens and magnum 4x4's to really see what YOU and I Stand to lose, if these ranchers all are gone!
Think about it!
 
This has been very interesting to see the responses. Overall, I've been saddened by the extreme ignorance and (in some cases) stupidity of some comments. We hunters always want to call ourselves conservationists and stewards of the land, but for too many the opinion is that "if I can't kill it, I don't care." THAT will be the downfall of hunting.

People disputing the FACTS that wild sheep get disease and DIE from domestic sheep and goats are either too ignorant, too emotional, or too stupid. Be that as it may, it HAS been proven and this CAN'T be disputed.

For those "experts" saying that sheep are worthless and weak, here's a simple description that even your "brain" might comprehend.

Wild sheep have evolved over thousands of years on this continent. The diseases prevalent in domestic sheep (who have only been in the West since the mid 1800's) were new pathogens, to which wild sheep have no anti-bodies and subsequently can (and do) perish when coming into contact with domestics that carry the disease.

Simple analogy: You are a healthy human...you're walking along the street and come into contact with a person carrying SARS, Ebola, or the bubonic plague. Since you're body has not evolved to fight these diseases you get sick and have a great chance of dying. So what have we done with infect humans with diseases that our bodies have trouble fighting? We quarantine them and keep them away from healthy people that are at high risk.

The sheep industry can and should stay, but not in areas of wild sheep populations (current and historic ranges). I worked many years on a cattle ranch. We never ran the cattle on National Forest land, but rather our own private land and made sure to mitigate any interaction with wildlife. It's not that hard if you're willing to do it.

Where there are no domestic sheep or goats, wild sheep thrive and are disease free.

Oh, and for the guy talking about the "introduced" wild sheep in Hell's Canyon...Wild sheep were there first. They were killed off by unregulated over-hunting and disease from domestic sheep introduced in the 19th century.

The answer is quite straight forward...if you still want to run domestic sheep and goats, find other ground to do it on, before the government drives you from it.

This not an "enviro" pushed propaganda piece. It's hunters that are ACTUALLY concerned with wildlife. Think about it...if we help to grow wild sheep populations then there will be more opportunities to hunt them.
 
WYGriz,

I get scared when I hear the terms "Proven and can not be disputed". It reminds me of Al Gore and the global warming debate. I'm employed in the emissons testing industry and have reviewed several sets of scientific data that disputes the proven and cannot be disputed evidence regarding Global warming. My opinion is Global warming the biggest scam every perpitrated on the people of the world but every day I hear people say "Proven and can not be disputed".
If you put a sick domestic sheep with a healthy wild sheep it will surely get sick. I believe that on some occasions domestic sheep can and do cause diease in wild sheep.
As domestic sheep get removed from areas where interactions occur die-offs are still happening at an alarming rate. This years die-offs in Nevada, and Northeastern Utah are great examples. No sheep grazing in either areas for years.
For 5 years I've been hunting the middle greys and have seen domestic sheep graze right next to wild sheep. So far, knock on wood we haven't had any die-offs (in recent years) in the Wyoming Range and as far as I can tell we have a nice little population of sheep growing in that area. I also know that two full time govt hunters follow sheep in the wyo range and kill hundreds of coyotes, eagles, bears, and wolves that would raise hell on wild lambs if Domestics weren't there.
It starts with sheep men, then cattle ranches, then Outfitters, and then all sportsmen and people who wish to enjoy the outdoors. Their strategy is to keep us divided and fractured; if that happens they will surely conquer all of us.
 
> Im courious, Do
>domestic goats transmit disease to
>wild sheeep? Ive seen packers
>use them in sheep country
>and since the Nev die
>off I cant help but
>wonder. I kinda like the
>idea of pack goats.


Yes
 
Two full time govt hunters that kill hundreds of coyotes, wolves, bears, and eagles, you gotta love that one. Global warming ain't true, so domestic sheep probably dont give wild sheep diseases, its just a rumor promoted by "them" to get sheepmen off the mountain. Unbelievable, Could you imagine how many sheep could live in the Wyoming range if the flocks of domestic sheep weren't wandering around ruining all that habitat, I bet the salt rivers could hold huge herds, the southern winds have lots of habitat unavailable except for the domestic sheep, and thats just a small chunk of Wyoming. If people only knew how much publicly owned wild sheep habitat is ruined because of wandering bands of non native sheep. All hunters should be sickened at the loss.
 
>Two full time govt hunters that
>kill hundreds of coyotes, wolves,
>bears, and eagles, you gotta
>love that one. Global
>warming ain't true, so domestic
>sheep probably dont give wild
>sheep diseases, its just a
>rumor promoted by "them" to
>get sheepmen off the mountain.
> Unbelievable, Could you
>imagine how many sheep could
>live in the Wyoming range
>if the flocks of domestic
>sheep weren't wandering around ruining
>all that habitat, I
>bet the salt rivers could
>hold huge herds, the southern
>winds have lots of habitat
>unavailable except for the domestic
>sheep, and thats just a
>small chunk of Wyoming.
>If people only knew how
>much publicly owned wild sheep
>habitat is ruined because of
>wandering bands of non native
>sheep. All hunters should
>be sickened at the loss.
>

............MY GOD!.....I cannot believe that I am in TOTAL agreement with Piper..... on this one!
 
I've got good friends on both sides of this issue. One sheep hunter who swears that the domestics kill all of the wild sheep on the mountain. The other one raises sheep in the Sierra's. The rancher says, there is no documented proof that domestics infect the wild ones. He and his father have been ranching on private and public land for over sixty years. For the last ten they have had to struggle and fight the goverment to keep their permits. The DFG and Forest Service pulled another one from them this spring. The reason why? A docter out of Mammoth was cross country skiing this winter in the McGee Mt. area, and said he saw a ram, two ewes, and a lamb. They pulled his permits on hearsay only. That sucks.
On the other side, my good friend the sheep hunter is convinced that domestics have to go. He drank the kool-aid, But the University of California, at the White MT, Reasearch Station, just moved in 60 domestics, for high altitude studys at the Barcroft Station. Those sheep are penned up about 400 yards from a small herd of nelsons big horns.I wonder, if its such a problem, HOW COME THE HIGHER EDUCATED, AT THE UNIVERSITY can have the sheep in close quarters, and the rancher can't? I'm just getting sick of all the B.S.
Just remember,if you keep drinking the kool-aid sooner or later we all lose. Open up your mind, and don't buy the B.S.

Thanks, Brownie
 
Piper,

Since its pretty obvious that your a sheep biologist please explain current dieoffs in Nevada and Utah where there were no domestic sheep?
As I said earlier I do believe that some diease outbreaks can be attributed to domestic sheep, wild sheep interaction. I just know that wild sheep currently are co-existing with domestic sheep in the Wyoming range, and they are doing better in the South end of the Wyoming range than they are in the North end where Fnaws bought all the domestic sheep permits about 8 years ago. This is a fact.
In 2003 after a 2 day backpacking trip in July I ran into a G&F warden and I told him about about a band of 20 rams in the area that I had been backpacking. He made a statement that we would never hunt them because they would most certainly die of diease. Lots of these rams are still there today, plus another 15 or so, and we currently have been hunting them for two years.
I do believe without any uncertanity that predation is the second biggest killer of wild sheep next to diease and the facts is that the govt hunters that travel with the domestic sheep are killing the ##### out of coyotes, bears, on occasion eagles, and lions.
As far as domestic sheep destroying habitat I believe the Wyoming range is some of the best summer habitat that exsists in Wyoming. The thought that domestic sheep "destoy" habitat is laughable. It looks exactly the same on the North end of the Wyoming range where there is no sheep as it does on the south end where there is domestic sheep. Stronge arguments can be made that responsible grazing on public lands can enhance habitat.
The enviromental groups that have a anti grazing agenda will be coming after sportsmen after they succeed in destroying the livestock industry so be careful what you wish for.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-17-10 AT 07:24PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-17-10 AT 07:22?PM (MST)

feduptwo- While no doubt domestic sheep do damage some habitat, its nothing compared to a century ago when the damage was really wrought, but thats not what I was refering to. herds of domestic sheep wander all summer long covering huge acreages, and that effectivly renders millions of otherwise good bighorn habitat useless. Anywhere they wander and possibly come in contact with wild native sheep means there can be a catastophic effect to the wild sheep. Its a well documented fact that the bacteria carried in the lungs of wild and domestic sheep is different, the domestic bacteria causes pneunomia in the natives, and they can pass it to the rest of the herd. The vast majority of the Wyoming range has no wild sheep, there are none in the southern end that I know of and the small herd you talk about is in what I would consider the central part of the range. Both the southern wind rivers and the southern Wyoming range have domestics, so there are no bighorns in those large areas. The Ruby And East Humboldt herds may well have come in contact with a sick wandering bighorn that had contact with a domestic, there are many ranches in the area and I believe there are flocks of domestics that go at least as far north as the Mitchell creek area. All sheep can wander, and Ive head that the strain of bacteria killing those sheep is the same as in domestics. The pre settlement population of bighorns in the west was estimated to be in the millions, the diseases that wiped out all those sheep is one of the real tragedies as far as wildlife goes,and as long as domestics are here there is no real solution. Bighorns have a different story compared to comeback stories of other north American big game. Its too bad for us hunters.
 
Sounds good to me. I'm old enough to remember when there were lots of domestic sheep in the Eastern Sierra of California. I also remember when there was a bounty on lions in cali. There were more domestic sheep, and cows in the mountains than there are nowdays. But THERE WAS also about 6000 deer on the round valley winter range too. Now THERE IS ABOUT 1500. Funny how things change, all those bad domestics, and more wild animals too! All the sheep, and most of the cows are gone. I guess those sheep herders earned their keep. Amazing how a guy that gets a tent , a jug of wine, and somthing to eat, does a better job on big game management than the PROS.
Thanks, Brownie
 
I imagine there were lots of bighorns in that part of Cal at one time, but you aren't old enough for that.Why don't you contact the U of C and ask about the research station? use the computer and study the bacterial pneumonia issue, lots of research has been done.
 
I'm Tired I don't think I'll look it up . What I'm tired about is all the over educated as- holes that keep on freqenting this site. You know this country was built by people that utilized our natural resourses. They had to make a living on the range, if they overgrazed it , they fu--ed themselves. It seemed to work pretty good for about 150 years, we went from nothing to the most powerful country in the world. But after the sixtys, it seems that the progressives in this country got in power in our institutions of higher learning. It's never been the same since! Wake up America, you've been taken over and you dont even know it . Hunting, Fishing, OHV'S, Pack Animals,Their all bad. Isn't it amazing we did so well for all that time, and now we don't know our a--. You know Piper, you may be a real smart guy , but I think you missed the common sence chapter.
Thanks, Brownie
 
You know Piper, I dont know you, and you might be a nice guy. But what I'm Pi--ed about is, all you biologist type guys want to look for the most extreme problem. Just like working on a pickup, guys like you want to rebuild the engine, when all thats wrong is your out of gas. Look in the history books sometime, you might learn something. And no, it's not that a capitolist society is a bad thing. You know most of the farmers and ranchers are pretty good guys!
Thanks, Brownie.
 
WYGRIZ

Which animal is going to help people out more, if you are so worried about keeping wild sheep alive. I believe there is vaccines and medications that will prevent pneumonia and a whole lot of other diseases... To many people are worried about sheep and cattle pushing out wildlife... The sheep and cattle sure benefit us a whole lot more... You are fighting to put sheephearders out of business, what do you do for a living.. I want to start fighting to put you out of business and see your family business go down the drain... Most of these sheep men have had these operations for a long dam time from generations passed down.. I dont like sheep either but I am sure not going to push to have someones lifelong business come to an end just to save some wild sheep that benefit very very few people... Same goes with cattleman. Just think if you took all the AUM's away from the sheep and cattleman, this would affect you and a whole lot of others... I believe wild sheep have their places and yes lets keep them going, but lets not affect some guys life long dream of being a rancher whether its sheep or cattle...
 
one persons life-long dream of a owning a flock of sheep and having a Peruvian herder follow them as they wander all over public land means hundreds of young people will never be able to fufill their life-long dream of hunting north American wild sheep. What I do for a living does not take opportunity from anyone. Niether does it have a measurable effect on wildlife. This is a about wild and domestic sheep, not cattle or hypothetical viewpoints.
 
Well, if we were to have a multimillion dollar, taxpayer funded study to see if goats, llamas, or flying pigs can transfer a disease, I'm sure we can come up with something!!
 
I remember how the Spotted Owl was on the brink of extinction and how important it was to stop all old growth logging to save the little fellow, and so they did. Then it was proven that Spotted Owls lived fine in logged over areas, ie. second growth timber, so the loggers had to stop logging there too. Then it was proven that logging had little to no effect on Spotted Owls, but by then it was too late. Whole generations of loggers and lumbermen had been wiped out, and that's really all that mattered.

There is a place for wild sheep and a place for owls. Just don't use them as an excuse to shut down private enterprise, just because you don't like it.

Anyone who has "a life long dream" of hunting a North American wild sheep can get lucky in the draws or save enough to hunt sheep in Alaska or Canada. We don't need to shut down the Country for something as childish as that.

Eel
 
Sheep hunting is Childish?, thats an interesting thought. Shutting down the whole country? thats interesting also, I don't know where that came from. Should private enterprise trump all other uses on the public land? or is it something that needs to be balanced? Do things change over periods of time or are we stuck? In my opinion one of the main reasons America is such a great country is because Teddy Roosevelt and others helped put the brakes on the wholesale exploitation of Americas wildlife and wildland resources. Did that mean shutting down the country, or the abolshment of private enterprise, hardly. The cries are the same then as now, but I really expected more thought out of some hunters on this site.
 
goverment allready drove sheep men out are area & big horns still got sick so you figure it out.
 
>+1 eelgrass you are exactly right............
>

eelgrass is always "exactly" right. He should teach a class on common sense and reality...



great post/pic, thanks for sharing

JB
497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
>Well, if we were to have
>a multimillion dollar, taxpayer funded
>study to see if goats,
>llamas, or flying pigs can
>transfer a disease, I'm sure
>we can come up with
>something!!


Flying pigs died out long ago from a strain of swine flu. Ive never seen domestic sheep at 12000 ft but I have seen domestic goats. Be nice NickW
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-18-10 AT 10:19PM (MST)[p]Piper,

I don't buy your arguement that a wild sheep traveled to a domestic sheep, and then traveled back to the wild sheep while having pnemonia. Then it happened again in Utah. The wild sheep in Utah were probably 40 miles from the closest free ranging domestics; even farther than that if you figure that the wild sheep would have to have swam across Flaming Gorge to reach Domestics. I believe that wild sheep occasionally just come down with it and pass it on to there buddies. Probably caused by stress, poor range.
conditions, drought and other factors we have no control over.
As far as habitat goes:
Teton range has no domestic sheep allotments and essentially no wild sheep(used to have a pile of sheep).
North Wyoming Range no domestic sheep and no wild sheep to speak of. (used to have huntable populations of sheep).
Every unit in Wyoming has reduced sheep tags on historical tag numbers and most areas there are no longer domestic sheep allotments left.
I fully support FNAWS and other conservation groups buying out allotments that they feel are determental to wild sheep on a willing buyer, willing seller type of agreement.
Being a true believer in multiple use of our public lands I'm opposed to forced sell offs for the sake of wild sheep or any other species for that matter. The sheep industry is part of my Western Heritage and I support responsible public land grazing. When were successful in reintroducting wild sheep to every portion of the the Western United states that Domestic sheep no longer roam then I may see more need to remove domestics from traditional ranges. Until then lets work on those areas.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-19-10 AT 01:29AM (MST)[p]So, maybe a different direction here.

First off, I grew up on a working cattle ranch. I still have several family members in the business and my wife is from a long line of "Basquo" sheepherders. That said, I have NOTHING against the domestic livestock business.

My issue is with the use of Federal lands/wildlife habitat and interaction of domestic livestock.

300 years ago, Europeans invaded this continent and most every living thing "we" have brought here ever since, from plants, fish, birds, domestic livestock, horses and ourselves, has displaced, poisoned, infected, exterminated, or otherwise had a detrimental effect on the "native species". Some effects are more clear than others....so far.

Look into it.

Mother Nature spent several million years designing this country and we come along and add a bunch of stuff she didn't account for, or create defenses from.

For a people who are supposedly the smartest on the planet, we continue to prove how pitifully stupid we are.

To flat out discount the domestic sheep vs. bighorn sheep issue, is simply foolish and uneducated. Something is killing them. They did fine for a few million years or so and all of a sudden, they cannot manage?

You want to be a Cowboy or a Sheppard, fine. I have no problem with it, but it needs to happen outside of Federal and public lands. The Federal lands grazing programs are no longer profitable, or cost efficient to the Government and they benefit a VERY small section of the population.

Spin it however you want and throw in all the "Americana Culture" you want, there aren't that many rangeland Cowboys left for a reason....."it ain't the cheapest way to make a cheeseburger, from scratch."

As an aside, most every petroglyph site, in the Eastern Sierra, depicts bighorn sheep in abundance and these native people made their home in this valley for about 6 to 10 thousand years. Where have the bighorn gone since we showed up? Maybe the Indians took them with them when they went wherever.

I have seen one bighorn, on the valley floor, in my entire life.

Let 'er rip! We aren't about to settle the arguement on this dumbazz website anyway! Cattle Barons and accredited biologists have been having it out for 50 years......

EDIT: As per the heading of the origial poster.."OPINION" is the key word here and I REALLY don't think mine will make a difference regardless. Nor do I care.
 
+ 1 nickman Domestic sheep, cheatgrass, and a bunch of other things were huge mistakes by early settlers, but it happened. Things are always changing whether we like it or not, hopefully for the better as far as wild sheep go, its just kind of sad that people on this hunting site might see working towards that end as childish.
 
Sad...that's all I can say. I hope this isn't representative of all western hunters. If only a few stand up and fight for our wildlife resources then I might have to rethink my passion and participation in the great sport of hunting.

Since many of you can't seem to understand truth (or don't want to due to ideological bias), I'll try again. Domestic sheep (and goats) can and do infect wild sheep, if the domestics carry the pathogens. Since there is know way of knowing which domestic sheep do and don't have the pathogens, they must be kept separate.

As far as no sheep in the Uintas and in Nevada that's wrong too. The Utah herds are being affected by domestics in Colorado, since there's an active allotment right next to the border in wild sheep habitat. Domestics ARE in the affected NV ranges, but politics is keeping it quiet.

Oh, and if you would read what I wrote, I'm not against ranching...I worked as a cow hand for many years. All ranchers have a right to have their business (sheep ranching not being economically viable anymore), but it can (and is) being done on private land, or public land where wild sheep aren't adversely affected.

As for the "history buffs" in the crowd. Since you know so much about American history and you think we were doing such a great job in the 19th century, I really hope you're not hunters. The 19th century was the greatest devastating century when it came to destroying our natural resources and taking them regardless of the costs to future generations. Teddy Roosevelt even said that through conservation you protect wildlife from the greed of the present, to save it for the enjoyment of the future. We had nearly wiped out ALL wildlife, even the now prolific whitetail and turkey. If you find that so appealing and great, I suggest you go somewhere else, where the destruction of wildlife, their habitat, and the health of people are common place. There were over 2 million bighorn sheep in the western US when Lewis & Clark came out here 200 years ago. That number crashed to only 15,000 by the middle of the 20th century. Now we have around 70,000 thanks to research, transplants, and reducing domestic/wild interaction.

The Wild Sheep Foundation (a hunting conservation organization) is working and funding research into possible vaccines and other ways to stop the spread of disease from domestics to wild sheep. But, it has been proven that the disease transfer happens. Wild sheep cannot carry the pathogen and not be sick, it's invasive and foreign to them. If you don't want to believe it and choose to remain ignorant then so be it...no truth or facts will ever convince you. It's too bad you don't really care about wildlife and are not real hunters because of that. All you want to do is take and never give anything back. It's a shame, but I guess it's the way of the world.

This was an intersting, if albeit dissapointing thread. I had hoped (I guess I'm too naive) that more of us hunters would be passionate about wildlife conservation, even the wildlife we can't hunt that often.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-19-10 AT 05:11PM (MST)[p]WyGriz, don't give up just yet. There's many sportsmans groups in Montana and around the west,that know the truth. We just endured a server winter, of pneumonia outbreaks, in many BH sheep populations in Western Montana. Some herds had die-offs of 80%.The disease was positively traced to a hobby ranchers herd here. These wild herds produced 200 + class rams. Sales for governor tags here are well established for going over $100,000 for 1 ram tag. Show me where a domestic sheep has a value of close to that. Our local sportsman organization paid a local hobbyist for his herd. He had to agree not to raise sheep or goats again. There is no doubt that wild sheep will contract and die from the the domestic pathogen. To think otherwise is wishful thinking or ignorance. Lots of reasons exist to do away with domestic sheep grazing on public lands, where they can come in contact with wild ones. Our local club also took the state DNRC to court over a lease that is next to wild sheep. The state allowed the grazer to change from cattle to domestic sheep. We sued and won. The domestic sheep were removed.


I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
The closest sheep allotment to the sheep in NE Utah is across the lake in WYO about 50 or 60 miles as a sheep travels. The closest allotment in CO is on the other side of Vermillion creek closer to Maybell on mostly private property, again 50 or 60 miles from the outbreak in 3 corners. There may be some 4H lambs on a few ranches in Browns park thats probably where it came from, maybe alien domestics transported by mother ships and then removed without detection, after the infection occured.
Meanwhile the sheep in the wyo range coexist on a daily basis, and have since at least 2000.
Once again not not saying there isn't a problem I'm just going to laugh when you get rid of all these domestic sheep and wild sheep still die of diease. Time and money would be better spent on vaccinations and feed station supplements that allow wild sheep to stay healthy.
A
 
I've asked our local bio's if there was a way to vaccinate wild sheep. Nothing will work as it sits right now. That's not to say something won't work in the near future. Of the sheep we had die off, it was directly linked to the domestics. The ones bought by our club were tested and carried the pathogen. The diseases your wild sheep got might not have been the same pathogen.

I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 

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