Once a 3 point, always....

ELKOHOLIC · Feb 27, 2012

A co worker and I was talking about Mule deer genetics. I have heard some say that a mature 3 point buck will always have the same basic 3 point frame and will not be a typical 4. Can someone prove or dis-prove this by a series of horns found from a buck or give other input on this. Should be interesting.

nickman · Feb 27, 2012

So.......Where then, would a typical 4 point grow from?

I guess I don't understand the concept of the question....

"Fathom the hypocracy of a Government that requires every citizen to prove that they are insured.....but not everyone must prove that they are a citizen"

Big_DD · Feb 27, 2012

Not sure how relevent this reply will be, since it's not strictly about 3 points, but here it goes.

I know the Utah govenors tag deer in 2000, killed in Utah County, guided by Mossback, was a 3x4 the year before (99), and the next year (2000) was the largest typical 4 point ever harvested on film (so it was claimed).

That's why I was always skeptical of the management hunts, I know that may be an isolated incident but I think a lot of the times, for most deer anyway, we will never really know unless we can keeps tabs on the same deer every year to prove otherwise.

Another point or another tine can always pop up the next year.

TOPGUN · Feb 27, 2012

The same thing has been said both ways regarding young whitetail bucks that start out as spikes. If the second rack is still a spike, then shoot him and take him out of the gene pool. However, he may have just been a late born fawn and needed that extra year to catch up with the crowd so to speak. Knowing exactly how old a buck is really needs to be known to be sure IMO.

YELUM · Feb 27, 2012

My friends and I watched a big 36 inch buck a few years ago. He had a 4x4 frame with extras. That spring we found his sheds scoring 207, plus two previous years. The year before he had a 4x3 frame with extras, and the year before that he was a 3x3.

Last year I saw a heavy mature 4x4, and this year he is a 3x3.

Yelum

beech18 · Feb 27, 2012

Im not saying I know the answer because I dont. I too have heard the same thing about 3 points will always be a 3 point. Correct me if I am wrong. Doesnt Utah have management hunts in selected areas for example where you can only shot a 3 point? If so, whats the logic behind this? I have also read the same thing if you find a big 5 point bull, he'll always be a 5 point.

30plus · Feb 27, 2012

Big d you are right on that buck but have the time line off.
in '97 he was about a 28" 3x4, then in '98 32" 4x4 my dad has the sheds mounted, to my knowledge noone found the sheds in '99, then he was taken in 2000 there is only 4-5" difference between '98 and 2000.

Utah has the management hunts on the Pauns and Henries in order to harvest more bucks without wiping out the top end bucks every year. It is not about genetics but getting hunters to target older bucks that would be and were left alone during the regular LE hunt. The Pauns was getting a very high buck:doe ratio but just adding more tags was not getting hunters to take the big old 3xwhatevers or 2x2s that were all over. So the management hunt was started to target bucks that otherwise were not being targeted.

Spend any time on the Vernon and you can see hunters will take a 22" 4x4 over a 25" 2x3, 3x4, 3x3 etc. even though the other may be heavier and show more age hunters prefer the 4x4 or little extras over a bigger 3x.

But back to the question a 3x3 can grow to be a 4x4.

I am sure some bucks get taken in the management hunts that might grow to be giants if left but most wont and a lot more oppurtunity is created while the units can be kept as premium units.

hank4elk · Feb 27, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-12 AT 02:26PM (MST)[p]Too many variables involved to make such blanket statements IMHO. All depends on feed,water,age,and genetics. A big 5x5 could be 5x7 or 7x7 the next year,or regress into 4x4 or 3x3.Maybe start growing new eye guards or a droptine. Best book on mule deer is "Mule Deer Country" by Dr. V. Geist ,foremost authority on ungulates.Best book on elk is "Elk Country" also by the good DR. Only 30" + buck I ever came close to taking in UT was a 3x3,and he gave me the slip.

Broadside_Shot · Feb 27, 2012

Take a look at the Buck that they called the General. One year he had a 4x3 frame and the next year he was killed he had a 4x4 frame. Both years he had extras.

Castnshoot · Feb 27, 2012

This deer was a 3X3 in 2010.

This is him as a 4X4 in 2011 on the left.

I think most deer will go from a 3X3 to a 4X4, a few may not. As they get real old they might loose points as well.

NV4Life · Feb 27, 2012

I've seen a bull elk (I know it's not a muley) go from a 380s 6x6, to a 410+ 7x9, to a 389 net 6x6. It is undeniably the same bull, my brother has 2 years of sheds off of him, and they killed him the 3rd year. He retained the same basic frame, same shaped points, but grew extras one year.

ELKOHOLIC · Feb 27, 2012

Nickman, I think it was "Geist" that said a Mule deer with good genetics would be a 2 point at 1 1/2 yrs and then should branch in to a 4 at 2 1/2. Don't quote me on that, but I think that is what was said.

Looks like we got some examples of 3's going to 4's. No doubt it happens. How much of a factor is a buck being a 3 point have on the potential of being a solid 4 point down the road???

tx_packmule · Feb 27, 2012

Depends on one's definition of mature. I've watched WT do some weird stuff from 4-8yrs of age and some will stay the same, others will start sprouting extra Gs and trash. I would suspect muleys to be similar.

elkassassin · Feb 27, 2012

Topgun is a dork. Who cares about a tiny 3 point anyway.

T264 · Feb 28, 2012

>A co worker and I was
>talking about Mule deer genetics.
>I have heard some say
>that a mature 3 point
>buck will always have the
>same basic 3 point frame
>and will not be a
>typical 4. Can someone prove
>or dis-prove this by a
>series of horns found from
>a buck or give other
>input on this. Should be
>interesting.

Did ya'll catch the key word in the above quote "MATURE"? Big difference between a 2 year old 3x3 staying a 3x3 and an old mature 6 year old 3x3. Odds are highly against a "mature" 3x3 ever becoming a 4x4 or better (typical frame).

T264

TOPGUN · Feb 28, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 07:55AM (MST)[p]Who ya calling dork, dork, LOL! Too bad I got post #14 deleted for calling you what you really are, but it's in your username and everyone can figure it out easy enough!