North Eastern Region "Pre RAC" meeting

B

BLTSO

Guest
The Region has decided to hold a pre-RAC meeting due to the variety of questions and comments we have received about the deer hunt. The meeting is for the 14th at 7pm at the BEERC (USU). This is not to replace the RAC, it is only designed to let us meet with sportsmen for an informational exchange of ideas. It will be in a roundtable type format so we can meet informally in smaller groups. The meeting is open to the public and all RAC and Board members are invited/encouraged to attend (see attached news release). Also, if you know of someone who would like to attend, please extend the invite.

Hey guys, just wanted everyone to know!! :) Come on out, I'd love to hear your opinions. This next meeting is a big one......

Carrie Mair
NE Region
At Large RAC member
435-724-8511
[email protected]

(save some of you the trouble of trying to figure out who I am) ;)
 
My Letter for The RAC/DWR/PUBLIC

Due to Work I may not make it to the Pre-RAC/RAC Meetings,so if you do not mind Carrie,I'd appreciate it if you copy what I'm going to type below & hand it to the UDWR,or read it to them or whatever you want to do with it & Thanks!

The Future of the Utah Mule Deer Herd & Mule Deer Hunting as I see it and have seen it:

1-Hunting just isn't the same as it once was.

2-I remember the Banner days of Mule Deer winding down around 1972 when my Dad harvested his last Big Buck,when I say Big Buck I mean a Buck that was 35"+ Wide,sure He's took a few Decent Bucks since then but Deer Hunting in Utah has never been the same since then & It never will be again,but I do believe it could be better than it is now.

3-I never thought I'd see Areas/Units Hunted out in Utah until they had to be closed for several years,boy was I ever wrong on that thought,just to name a couple,The Book Cliffs,BumbleBee,Henry Mountains and San Juan,with as many UDWR Biologists as We have here in Utah I honestly do not why they couldn't see declines in the Deer Herd & should have cut back Permit Numbers when cutting back was needed to help Improve suffering Deer Herds/Numbers,Instead they kept issuing too many Permits & shot the Units out so bad the Units had to be closed for a few years,I still don't understand their(DWR)thinking on this?

4-Then we start the LE Deer Units several years back & these Units have had their ups & downs also,mostly when they get doing fairly well the UDWR issues too many permits & they go down hill real quick,but with alot of people screaming:"I want My Opportunity"the UDWR seems like they want to try & satisfy every Opportunist in the State which you can not do,and will not ever happen,it'd be nice if we could but we can't,too many Hunters & not enough Big Game.

5-The UDWR pressuring Big Game Herds from Mid-August through December/January is total BS,Cows Hunts that run in to December & January,What a Joke,there isn't no Game Herd anywhere that can take the Continuous/Non-Stop & overlapped Hunting Pressure Utah puts on their Game Herds.

6-We've heard that the Lions were the biggest problem in the Book Cliffs several years ago,yes Lions eat Deer,but for several years the Lion Quota has not been filled,yes they hunt Lions hard in the Book Cliffs,the Book Cliffs herd still isn't what it should be,too many permits issued,better open your eyes & thin the Coyotes out,then you could issue more permits,with the future of the Oil Drilling & Oil Shell & Poor Management I don't see this Unit ever being the same as it once was,yes I know fuel is more important than Hunting,or so they say.

7-I've said this for years but seems like very few realize it:Even if we could bring the Big Bucks of Utah back I honestly don't think you could keep them alive during the Poaching season,until the UDWR starts setting some Big Fines & revoking Hunting Privileges for Life I don't think anything is going to change.

8-Good Gawd(Sorry for the Language) I had another one of my hunting spots invaded by Illegal ATV Law Breakers again this year,I talked with a local Biologist while hunting & asked him if He'd please call who ever needed called to get it stopped,don't think he called anybody?If he did nobody showed up and there were more Trails Blazed & extended by the day,When is the USFS & the UDWR going to wake up & do something about this Problem?Just for your info,it's just about too late,Ya I know,they're a good Tool when used properly,I think the 'Tool' in most cases is the Joker that's hanging on to the handlebars.

9-Just in case you don't already know UDWR,the NorthEastern Deer Herd is Suffering Big Time,You should already know this,can you see it?Several other Regions are suffering too.

10-I've hunted all my Life hopeing to someday harvest a Buck worthy of mounting & putting on the wall,still hasn't happened & may never happen I'm OK with that,but Hunting where there's a chance at a Buck more than 3-4 years old might help,I just keep thinking about the Younger generation of Hunters,what will they see?It doesn't look good.

11-I hate to say it but I don't see the Utah Deer Herd coming back anytime soon,I've seen nearly 40 years of POOR Management & even when something good happened with the Deer Herd in certain areas/units it was over hunted & shot out a short time later due to poor management.

12-The way I see it today,A Quality Deer Herd will never be seen in Utah ever again,after 40 years of the DWR's management what do we have today?A suffering Deer herd,that's what we have,I hope it changes,I've hoped for 40 years now but it's not happening.

13-You can't satisfy every person/Hunter in the State UDWR so when you going to start managing the Deer Herd rather than the Screaming Opportunists?

14-Unlike many other Hunters in this State I see many,many,many & a combination of problems with the Utah Deer herd of today,I honestly don't think anybody could make enough & severe enough changes quick enough to bring the Deer herd back & satisfy all the Hunters/Opportunists at the same time.

15-Remember one thing UDWR,when you haven't got anything left to sell things are gonna get tough,You'd best step up to the Plate & make the Proper changes now rather it makes some people/Hunters mad or not.

I could go on Typing for a Week,most of you already know my thoughts & most of you either like me or hate me,I'm OK with that,I've warned you all for years what was coming,well it's here now,We going to make some needed/proper changes or are We going to try another 40 years of poor Deer management as per the last 40 years?

bobcatbess











Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
RE: My Letter for The RAC/DWR/PUBLIC

I hope every deer hunter in Utah and their children will take ShowMe's remarks to every RAC and the Board meeting and read it into the microphone for 2 hours. Over and over and over and over!

You younger 30 something guys best get fired up. Bess and others have been warning the bureaucrats for over 30 years this day was coming. "THE LIGHT'S ARE ON, NOBODIES HOME."

We've seen the decline, you youngsters have no way to compare or measure how far we've fallen because you haven't had 40 years to measure against. You think Bess is just blowing "trophy smoke", you're wrong. You are going to loose a hunt-able deer herd, Statewide, in a very few years.

Here is what we know:

North West Utah Region-deer numbers are so low a region reduction in tags sold this last year. It will take years to recover.

Southern Region -Northern part: deer numbers so low and the fawn doe ratio so bad the Director had to take matters in his own hands and relocate limited DWR to predator control in the middle of a budget year. BLM and Forest Service reported at an elk management meeting last week the winter habitat is such good shape they now want to start to focus on summer aspen/conifer encroachment projects rather than any more winter range.

The Northern Region has huge tracts of private land and very few deer on the public land during the hunting season. The Northern Region has also got the most sensitive winter range conditions of the five regions and is therefore more vulnerable than any of them.

You Wasatch Front hunters have it good right now because of the limits in place in your back yard, wake up, your turn will come soon enough.

You think that you can keep hunting these animals non-stop for antlers and meat year round and stand up there and tell us old boys there's no impact. You lying to yourselves! And I don't give a damn who it pisses off.

I'll take one more swipe and try to get anyone I haven't touched yet. You guys and gals that make your living off wildlife, you outfitters, guides, rifle and archer shop owners, landowners (CWMU), bullet, ball and arrow manufactures, you best pony up right now and you best not try to hold off, hoping it will get better some how. If you think you can support your families when the deer herds and the elk herds are gone, you have got a bitter dose headed your way too. Help now or suffer the consequences soon than you think.

If you want your youth to hunt deer and elk in Utah you better suck it up right now and get this sucker headed the other way because you know damn well what Bess is saying is 100% right on and worse.

Tis the season! RAC meetings matter! I promise you, there will be a huge effort to push for more opportunity this year, like you can't even begin to imagine.

DC
"Road Blocker Extraordinaire" & "And All Those Other Things"
 
RE: My Letter for The RAC/DWR/PUBLIC

And one more thing, as if we don't already have enough on the plate.

There's a Mexican Red Wolf headed right up your backside on a fast trot and if you think the State Bureaucrats are difficult, wait unit you get a load of what the US Fish and Game boys have up there sleeve for y'all.

Sleep tight!

Dc
 
RE: My Letter for The RAC/DWR/PUBLIC

Good I am not the only one who didn't know ShowMe was Bess.

I agree with what your saying 2Lumpy and Bess.

Although I am not completely in tune with Utah but I believe most of what you say could apply to all western states as far as General areas are concerned.

Along with the younger guys lack of background is their eternal optimism and the fact that if you work REALLY hard you can still find a good buck (this is ALWAYS the argument check out the no forkies for grown men thread in the Mule Deer section) then throw in the Govt. info on herds and their management that the masses seem to gobble up.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
RE: My Letter for The RAC/DWR/PUBLIC

god help our wildlife... sfw and mdf have to many money deals to care about .
 
RE: My Letter for The RAC/DWR/PUBLIC

Go ahead and go to this meeting, but beware all you are going to get told is that the deer herd in the NE region is going just as planned. They will tell you that their objective is 15bucks per 100 does, and those numbers are right on target according to the biologists. When someone tells them that they hunted that region hard, and viewed over 200 does and with them maybe 4 legal bucks, they will basically tell you that you are a liar.
 
RE: My Letter for The RAC/DWR/PUBLIC

They can call me whatever they want to,I know what's there & what ain't.
And I don't need years of Schooling/Brainwashing to know what I see.


Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
RE: My Letter for The RAC/DWR/PUBLIC

And, after all that is said, someone swill ask how the counts are done, and they will tell you that the biologists use a helicopter over winter rang lands get a basic count and then add a percentage that they couldn't see. You will also be told that like the elk, when pressured deer will not seek private ground, they are not that smart. They will try to shoot sunshine up your hind end, and tell you, the hunter/sportsman that your concerns will be taken into account. When in all actuality they have their minds already made up as how they will proceed to foul up both the deer and elk herds in the NE, or should I say the whole state. To put it another way, the Utah Fish and Game (lame) are a bunch of money hungry liars. Just my take on things.
 
RE: My Letter for The RAC/DWR/PUBLIC

Let me put this the way Cassius Clay would have said it:

If you ain't gon'na try,
You got no need to cry.

So....show up,
Speak up,
or Put up!

There's nobody on this forum that has tried and failed any more times than me and the Cat so we're not interested in why your not going to do your part. Either you care enough to put out some effort or you don't.

DC
 
Here's the gist of last night's meetings......

Although, this is a reflection, and might be somewhat emotionally charged, with a personal spin....

I encourage you all to read through to the minutes. They aren't posted yet, but will be soon (http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/hunting/board-rac.html)

First and foremost 2lumpy, I'm putting up the effort...I will be at every RAC (unless some catastrophe happens.) This is important guys, and you need to understand that the RAC WORKS FOR YOU, to REPRESENT YOU! And unless I know what you want, I can't help you.

Bessy, I didn't see your post until today, however, I feel as though I represented your points at the pre-RAC as well as the RAC, maybe not as elequently as you put it here, but in so many words. Next time, PLEASE CALL ME. I'm not as avid of a MM'er as Justr, so you'll have to give me a few to become an addict.

Ok...here's the skinny.

Most everything was in fact accepted as proposed by the state, with the exception of the extended archery boundary, which was altered to include the Maser area (approx. 3 miles north of 500 W.) and the eastern boundary was extended to include all land up to the Monument boundary. The one mile buffer was REMOVED from the green river. Much to the dismay of the Bowhunters. I voted in affirmation of the motion BECAUSE it was proposed to the RAC that this is no longer a depredation hunt, it is strictly recreational, and will be managed as such. Because this is not a tactic to remove depredation animals anymore, the buffer becomes a hazy line, and for law enforcement issues, was limited to the north side of the Green.

I believe the bow hunters are going to propose the reinstatement of the buffer to the Wildlife Board, as well as an inclusion of the Pleasant Valley area.

Everything else was business as usual, and the motions were accepted as state proposal.


Here's where it got interesting.

DIAMOND MOUNTAIN.

grrrr.......

A letter was sent to the RAC regarding a variance from a law that allows the land owners to be exempt from allowing one hunter to access their property for every voucher given. (let me know if you want a copy of that letter) Mr. Dave Chivers was present at the meeting, along with an outfitter that works for him. The outfitter stood up and told the RAC that because there is a high monetary value on the animal, they are worth more in general. Here's where I became irate. The division was questioned regarding the variance, and was told "all is well." I had requested a list of general public hunters that were allowed access no the property (the landowners had claimed to have the information). It was not provided to me. Mr. Chivers, as well as the division claimed that the long running 17 year history of the variance had proven to be successful in the past. We voted, it passed. It was after the vote that I began hearing an OUTPOURING of public discontent with the vote.

Here's the deal. I know NOTHING about the Diamond. Educate me, please. All I know is it is vastly private, and there is limited access.......let's hear the opinions. Bessy, fill me in here. The vote was made without public input, which allows for me to strike the vote from the record, if there is enough public input in negation of the vote. Basically, if it makes you guys mad.....let me know. I'll do what I can.

....NEXT......

Blanket management. 18-25/100 ratios are the general management tactic across the state. Historically the Taylor is in the single digits for buck to doe ratio......upwards of 20 years ago. Here's what that boils down to. If we manage that unit on the 18-25 buck ratio, we will continue to cut tags, until there are no tags left.....with no hope for regeneration. My question to the state was, if we are going to manage on a unit by unit basis....shouldn't we do just that? I asked to implement the historical data of a unit into the equation of ration numbers, and not manage the state under a blanket. It's not logical.

...Next......

I made a proposal to amend the state wide Management plan to allow for the implementation of a management deer hunt on a limited entry unit. This is a broad amendment that needs to be put into place so we can start a management hunt in the book cliffs. The idea is to gear the management tags (3 point or smaller on one side) towards the youth and seniors in order to regenerate lost tags, and increase opportunity on the unit. We would like to see it in place for 3 years as a trial (as deemed fit by the division biologist on that unit (Dax).
That will hit the board at the next meeting, I'll keep you updated.

That is the basic gist of the meeting. Any questions, comments, hate mail, please email me.


Thanks for your passion, and dedication to the resource.


Carrie Mair

[email protected]
 
BLTSO
Just to make sure you understand, my remarks were not directed at you, clearly, you're doing exactly what I hope every sportsman will do.

Here is what seems to be going on, and it has been for 40 years.

A handful and I mean a handful, like a dozen or so, sportsmen in each area are passionately engaged in growing wildlife for sport hunting. Another 50 or so are active watchers and talkers but rarely step to the microphone or write a letter. The other 15,000 in each area don't seem to know and/or don't seem to care, they just want to hunt and will adapt to what ever the system provides. The 15,000 are never going to make sure the wildlife herds are cared for and are never going to do much more than spend a weekend or two packing a weapon and shooting what ever the system says they can.

The 50 active watchers and talkers will get on forums, attend fund raisers, show up at conservation events but rarely if ever take an individual aggressive proactive, speaking, letter writing effort to help. They are great guys/gals but for some reason hold back personally.

The "dirty dozen" are the ones that are packing load and it's not enough. They can't do it alone. Your obviously one of the "dirty dozen" in your area and I commend and respect you. What I'd hope to see is the other 50 guys/gals get as fired up as you and get this mess with mule deer turned around.

Thanks for your passion and your effort. If I came across poorly, I apologize.

DC
 
Lumpy, not at all!! :) I didn't mean to insinuate that you had directed your comments at me.

I just believe that people should lead by example.....and actions speak a lot louder than words.

I'm willing to be a voice but the 15000 people need to be the backbone. And some people need to show up and take the time to educate themselves before they spew ambigious and misinformed opinions.

Educate educate educate........
 
RE: My Letter for The RAC/DWR/PUBLIC

>Go ahead and go to this
>meeting, but beware all you
>are going to get told
>is that the deer herd
>in the NE region is
>going just as planned.
>They will tell you that
>their objective is 15bucks per
>100 does, and those numbers
>are right on target according
>to the biologists. When
>someone tells them that they
>hunted that region hard, and
>viewed over 200 does and
>with them maybe 4 legal
>bucks, they will basically tell
>you that you are a
>liar.

Dude, we don't need all the reasons you won't show up. But if you don't show up and share your opinion, or try to do something you have no right to complain about anything.





4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
RE: My Letter for The RAC/DWR/PUBLIC

My question is, as a RAC member, what can I do personally to improve your experience as a hunter in Utah? I'm not claiming to be able to right the wrong, fix the problem, or solve world hunger....but I can listen to your complaints, but make sure you follow them up with what you would like to see done. What you believe the resolve to be. Standing there and pounding the podium talking about how the whole world is out to destroy the resource might be EXACTLY how you feel, and this is to no discredit to that feeling. I'm simply asking for constructive information, and constructive criticism. Instead of "the DWR blows sunshine"...how about, I didn't feel as if I was heard, it would have been better if X would have happened, instead of Y.

See what I mean.

Anyone is entitled to their opinions about the management, but tearing everything down, will never result in rebuilding anything.
 

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