News article - selling big buck coordinates in WY

What has gone on in this forum was more than helpful in convincing legislators to vote yes and to send this draft legislation to the next session.
 
Every state needs to look into this! As hunters, sportsman, ect when will we wake up to what's happening? The price of a Deers head just for his horns has really taken away from the long time hunting tradition.

1 guy with a tag, 50 guys looking for a Deer for him, guns that shoot 1500 yards, planes and drones in the air. Enough is enough the Deer deserve better!!!!
 
It's interesting to me that there would be such an uproar about this, and yet most find it perfectly acceptable to hire an outfitter, that will hire a Guide, that will take you directly to the area where they have pre-scouted the very same deer. Isn't this exactly the same thing, except that you have to do even less of the work yourself?

Interesting debate.
 
There is a difference between an outfitter and someone selling coordinates, photos, etc.

The outfitter or guide is permitted by the State, have to have a license, insurance, all that stuff. Representative Joe MacGuire gave some great testimony when he said we just don't allow anyone that wants to mine our coal, graze our State lands, etc. to do so. There are permits and procedures to follow, why should it be any different with wildlife resources.

Then there was a strong sportsmen's voice also that brings up the whole ethics side of the argument, which is also valid and has been stated here by the previous post.

The other fact that was brought up is that some people that are providing this service are also not permitted by the USFS either. When you sell photos taken on USFS lands, you have to be permitted for that too, and it was stated in testimony that no such permits were issued for the scouting services.

Its solid legislation, clear, clean and precise to the problem of scouting services.

Its more likely than not its going to be State law after this next legislative session, and rightfully so.
 
I simply can't see how a law can be passed to stop someone from telling someone else where they saw a deer. Whether for money or not.
The state may own the deer, but do they have the right to dictatate who talks about the deer and what is said about the deer? I own my house, should I ask for a law to be passed to stop people from talking about my house? Come on!!! Some celebrities would love there to be laws to stop others from talking about them and their property, but Freedom of Speech allows it and an amendment protects it.

We'll see if the law flies this year. I'd be surprised if it does. Like last year, I would hope there'll be some smarter state reps who see this as an unconstitutional law to suppress freedom to speak and/or publish information. Freedom of Speech in this country doesn't only apply when one speaks for free, it also applies when someone is compensated.

I have to laugh at how some people make it sound like if you know where a deer was in July that it's a slamdunk to just walk in there and shoot the deer. I think many know better, but just cast BS to try and fool the ignorant into buying the "unethical" BS. But then they propose a law that says it's okay for outfitters to do it. It's only unethical I guess if you don't have a guide license...??? Come on! Ethics don't revolve around state licenses, either it is or isn't ethical.

This comment by Jim Allen is what it's all about, "unfair advantage given to some hunters and not others." So going forward we all have to use the same optics, same gun, hunt the same amount of time, eat the same food, have the same strength, drive the same vehicles, scout the same, etc. Come on, people with the unit in their backyard have the advantage, not the guy traveling for New Jersey that I help.

So there you go, I don't think the law will pass and even if it does, I don't think it's constitutional and would probably deserve a fight. As for personal feelings about the issue, I respect everyone's opinion, but I have mine and I feel quite good to be able to help out a few guys who live too far from an area to scout it. I scout for myself and then later share the knowledge I have in my head, if I want. And yes, sometimes I get compensated for that knowledge I share.

And BuzzH, the reason the Forest Service testified that no permits were issued is because every one of them that I talked to, all the way up the chain, agreed that no permit was needed for me to tell people what I saw while on Forest Service land. No different than if I backpacked a hundred trails and then wrote a book about all those trails.
As for your "mining coal and grazing" comment. You're right, one can't mine without a permit or graze their cattle. But no permit is needed to look at the state land and no permit is needed to write a book telling everyone in the world where you saw that mine or state land.

But if they do pass the law, then so be it. Me not being able to help a few guys isn't that big of a deal. My biggest deal with this issue is that they're trying to force me to "Shut Up!" about any big bucks I find, and I just don't think I should have to do that. It's MY knowledge and I should be able to share it with anyone I want, whether it be for for free or a trillion dollars.

Just my $.02 on the issue.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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>I simply can't see how a
>law can be passed to
>stop someone from telling someone
>else where they saw a
>deer. Whether for money or
>not.
>The state may own the deer,
>but do they have the
>right to dictatate who talks
>about the deer and what
>is said about the deer?
>I own my house, should
>I ask for a law
>to be passed to stop
>people from talking about my
>house? Come on!!! Some celebrities
>would love there to be
>laws to stop others from
>talking about them and their
>property, but Freedom of Speech
>allows it and an amendment
>protects it.
>
>We'll see if the law flies
>this year. I'd be surprised
>if it does. Like last
>year, I would hope there'll
>be some smarter state reps
>who see this as an
>unconstitutional law to suppress freedom
>to speak and/or publish information.
>Freedom of Speech in this
>country doesn't only apply when
>one speaks for free, it
>also applies when someone is
>compensated.
>
>I have to laugh at how
>some people make it sound
>like if you know where
>a deer was in July
>that it's a slamdunk to
>just walk in there and
>shoot the deer. I think
>many know better, but just
>cast BS to try and
>fool the ignorant into buying
>the "unethical" BS. But then
>they propose a law that
>says it's okay for outfitters
>to do it. It's only
>unethical I guess if you
>don't have a guide license...???
>Come on! Ethics don't revolve
>around state licenses, either it
>is or isn't ethical.
>
>This comment by Jim Allen is
>what it's all about, "unfair
>advantage given to some hunters
>and not others." So going
>forward we all have to
>use the same optics, same
>gun, hunt the same amount
>of time, eat the same
>food, have the same strength,
>drive the same vehicles, scout
>the same, etc. Come on,
>people with the unit in
>their backyard have the advantage,
>not the guy traveling for
>New Jersey that I help.
>
>
>So there you go, I don't
>think the law will pass
>and even if it does,
>I don't think it's constitutional
>and would probably deserve a
>fight. As for personal feelings
>about the issue, I respect
>everyone's opinion, but I have
>mine and I feel quite
>good to be able to
>help out a few guys
>who live too far from
>an area to scout it.
>I scout for myself and
>then later share the knowledge
>I have in my head,
>if I want. And yes,
>sometimes I get compensated for
>that knowledge I share.
>
>And BuzzH, the reason the Forest
>Service testified that no permits
>were issued is because every
>one of them that I
>talked to, all the way
>up the chain, agreed that
>no permit was needed for
>me to tell people what
>I saw while on Forest
>Service land. No different than
>if I backpacked a hundred
>trails and then wrote a
>book about all those trails.
>
>As for your "mining coal and
>grazing" comment. You're right, one
>can't mine without a permit
>or graze their cattle. But
>no permit is needed to
>look at the state land
>and no permit is needed
>to write a book telling
>everyone in the world where
>you saw that mine or
>state land.
>
>But if they do pass the
>law, then so be it.
>Me not being able to
>help a few guys isn't
>that big of a deal.
>My biggest deal with this
>issue is that they're trying
>to force me to "Shut
>Up!" about any big bucks
>I find, and I just
>don't think I should have
>to do that. It's MY
>knowledge and I should be
>able to share it with
>anyone I want, whether it
>be for for free or
>a trillion dollars.
>
>Just my $.02 on the issue.
>
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!

You will still be able to share "knowledge", but only without coordinates and maps with specific locations.
 
>There is a difference between an
>outfitter and someone selling coordinates,
>photos, etc.
>
>The outfitter or guide is permitted
>by the State, have to
>have a license, insurance, all
>that stuff. Representative Joe MacGuire
>gave some great testimony when
>he said we just don't
>allow anyone that wants to
>mine our coal, graze our
>State lands, etc. to do
>so. There are permits and
>procedures to follow, why should
>it be any different with
>wildlife resources.
>
>Then there was a strong sportsmen's
>voice also that brings up
>the whole ethics side of
>the argument, which is also
>valid and has been stated
>here by the previous post.
>
>
>The other fact that was brought
>up is that some people
>that are providing this service
>are also not permitted by
>the USFS either. When you
>sell photos taken on USFS
>lands, you have to be
>permitted for that too, and
>it was stated in testimony
>that no such permits were
>issued for the scouting services.
>
>
>Its solid legislation, clear, clean and
>precise to the problem of
>scouting services.
>
>Its more likely than not its
>going to be State law
>after this next legislative session,
>and rightfully so.

So what does the proposed legislation actually say? How far does it go? Is it only "selling GPS coordinates" or "coordinates" or "directions to..". And does it go further as in selling other information such as photos, maps, word-of-mouth etc. etc.. Hand written maps, aerial maps, aliquot part section information from the public land system & quad maps can still easily be made and given as information either through mail or email. Are these more 'traditional' methods going to be allowed for scouting services to use? I totally understand the easiest way to get someone to a location these days is using GPS. You mention more concerns with scouting services than just GPS coordinates. Is this just the first step to how scouting services are going to be managed by the State?
 
Brian,

You keep trying to make it sound like you are just trying to help out a few non-res hunters by giving them some intel. You are selling the location of bucks by assumed B&C score. If it was just you sitting around the coffee shop telling your buddies or sending an email to one of the visitors to your sight then no one would know or care. You advertised your service. You marketed your service. You developed a fee schedule for your service. All of this sure sounds like a business to me. With a business comes certain regulatory responsibilities. You seem to want one without the other.

Curious why you don't offer your service in your home State of UT? Seems you have more support for what you do from your fellow UT residents. You might meet with less resistance in UT.
 
Sharing "knowledge", publishing information, about something that exists in another state doesn't require one to have a business license or special permit in the state where the something exists.

If you want to write a book about your favorite places to visit across the US, you don't need a business license in every state you write about. You just need a business license in the state where your business exists and the writing is primarily done.

I agree that my sharing my knowledge is business, but so is everything I share on this site or privately through email. I've made a living sharing information and facilitating the sharing of information for 12+ years. This site exists in part to help connect sportsmen, so that they can share information in one way or another.

I share information about Wyoming because I'm up there looking for myself a deer and because I like going there. Maybe some day I'll scout for someone hunting Utah, I don't know. If I have a tag somewhere and gather extra knowledge that I'm not using, I may share it. Maybe for free, maybe not. Just depends.

I don't scout Wyoming just to piss off locals up there. I do it because I want to find a buck for me to hunt. I know local guys would rather me and all other non-residents to just stay out of "their" state. But it ain't happening. It's a free world and I'm going where I want. You all are welcome to come to my state and see our national forests, to hunt, or go to Lake Powell. I promise I won't yell at you to go back home or rob your hunting camp.



>Brian,
>
>You keep trying to make it
>sound like you are just
>trying to help out a
>few non-res hunters by giving
>them some intel. You
>are selling the location of
>bucks by assumed B&C score.
> If it was just
>you sitting around the coffee
>shop telling your buddies or
>sending an email to one
>of the visitors to your
>sight then no one would
>know or care. You
>advertised your service. You
>marketed your service. You
>developed a fee schedule for
>your service. All of
>this sure sounds like a
>business to me. With
>a business comes certain regulatory
>responsibilities. You seem to
>want one without the other.
>
>
>Curious why you don't offer your
>service in your home State
>of UT? Seems you
>have more support for what
>you do from your fellow
>UT residents. You might
>meet with less resistance in
>UT.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
Why dont you do that in your own state? Utah has super deer areas and high roller people comming in.
Its just a modern day form of illegal outfitting.
 
I have to agree with Founder on this one.

Outfitters wanting to keep more control over trophy animals. They have made a poor and unfair law restricting non resident big game hunting in wilderness, while allowing ,hiking, small game hunting, fishing, etc in the same wilderness area. Makes no sense.
 
I'm quite sure that if it were "illegal outfitting" I would have been charged. Something is only illegal if it's illegal, not when someone thinks it should be illegal. At this point you just think it should be illegal, but it ain't.



>Why dont you do that in
>your own state? Utah has
>super deer areas and high
>roller people comming in.
>Its just a modern day form
>of illegal outfitting.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
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Brian,

I can tell you that if you sell pictures taken from the NF, including pictures of deer, yes you need a permit. Any photographer that sells a picture of a landscape, a bird, whatever, on FS lands, needs to be permitted. I can provide the regulation if you want it, in fact I will:

https://www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/special_film.shtml

I'm pretty familiar with the FSH, CFR, etc.

I would direct you to FSH Chapter 40 (45.52a(1))...regarding commercial still photography.

As to the rest of your comments, well, I will also agree to disagree. The State of Wyoming has the absolute right to regulate what happens with our wildlife, we own it, you dont. Wyoming not wanting people to be able to sell specific information about our big-game is no different than regulations not allowing flying, using drones, caliber restrictions, or any other game law. Not saying you have to like it, but many don't care for what you're doing either.

It seems to me that your attitude toward Wyoming's Wildlife, and specifically the way you've conducted your argument here, has largely prompted this legislation.

That, combined with Wyoming Resident hunters putting ethical hunting, the health of the resource, and wanting more for wildlife than a profit margin will be why this is very likely to pass.

Don't know what else to say really.

rocky2track, the adopted language is pretty clear, I have a copy, but I'm not going to type it. But, what you wrote is pretty well in line with the actual language.

Also, if the bill passes as is, anyone caught would be subject to a "high misdemeanor" with up to a $10,000 fine and year in jail.

Wyoming is serious about its wildlife, we've put a lot of effort into it getting to where we are.
 
>I'm quite sure that if it
>were "illegal outfitting" I would
>have been charged. Something is
>only illegal if it's illegal,
>not when someone thinks it
>should be illegal. At this
>point you just think it
>should be illegal, but it
>ain't.
>
>
>
>>Why dont you do that in
>>your own state? Utah has
>>super deer areas and high
>>roller people comming in.
>>Its just a modern day form
>>of illegal outfitting.
>
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!

Correct, precisely why a law needs to be passed to prohibit it.
 
Wilderness law is another one where the National Forest Service doesn't restrict non-residents. The state owns the wildlife and sets the rules on how and who gets to hunt, so they just make it a rule that if you hunt their game, you have to hire a guide. Many think it has something to do with the National Forest restricting us. Nope, it's just something you have to agree with to hunt their game. I would bet the statute was written with "Wilderness Area" in it to make people think it's a federal thing and not what it is, the state taking care of their outfitter buddies.
They may be able to regulate who hunts the wildlife, but should they be able to dicatate who can look at it and what is said about the wildlife? No way can that be constitutional. Ownership doesn't give a government or a private person the right to regulate what is spoken or written about their property.



>I have to agree with Founder
>on this one.
>
> Outfitters wanting to keep more
>control over trophy animals.
>They have made a poor
>and unfair law restricting non
>resident big game hunting in
>wilderness, while allowing ,hiking, small
>game hunting, fishing, etc in
>the same wilderness area.
>Makes no sense.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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Brian,

Nice attempt to pit this discussion as Res vs. NR. That has nothing to do with it. I think a res selling game locations according to B&C score is just as lame as a NR doing it. I support NR's hunting in wyo, just as I hunt in many different states and provinces when I can.

I will say that my issue with your service does have some influence from what I see as the Utah model of wildlife management. That being the over emphasis of Trophy score, the selling of animals to the highest bidder, the pimping of the citizens of Utah's wildlife resources to the various business organizations in search of more profit. I grew up hunting in Utah and I loved it. I have also seen the sh!tshow it has turned into. Wyoming is not like that to the same degree. I want to make sure we don't get any closer.
 
I don't sale photos of deer I see.


>Brian,
>
>I can tell you that if
>you sell pictures taken from
>the NF, including pictures of
>deer, yes you need a
>permit. Any photographer that sells
>a picture of a landscape,
>a bird, whatever, on FS
>lands, needs to be permitted.
>I can provide the regulation
>if you want it, in
>fact I will:
>
>https://www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/special_film.shtml
>
>I'm pretty familiar with the FSH,
>CFR, etc.
>
>I would direct you to FSH
>Chapter 40 (45.52a(1))...regarding commercial still
>photography.
>
>As to the rest of your
>comments, well, I will also
>agree to disagree. The State
>of Wyoming has the absolute
>right to regulate what happens
>with our wildlife, we own
>it, you dont. Wyoming not
>wanting people to be able
>to sell specific information about
>our big-game is no different
>than regulations not allowing flying,
>using drones, caliber restrictions, or
>any other game law. Not
>saying you have to like
>it, but many don't care
>for what you're doing either.
>
>
>It seems to me that your
>attitude toward Wyoming's Wildlife, and
>specifically the way you've conducted
>your argument here, has largely
>prompted this legislation.
>
>That, combined with Wyoming Resident hunters
>putting ethical hunting, the health
>of the resource, and wanting
>more for wildlife than a
>profit margin will be why
>this is very likely to
>pass.
>
>Don't know what else to say
>really.
>
>rocky2track, the adopted language is pretty
>clear, I have a copy,
>but I'm not going to
>type it. But, what you
>wrote is pretty well in
>line with the actual language.
>
>
>Also, if the bill passes as
>is, anyone caught would be
>subject to a "high misdemeanor"
>with up to a $10,000
>fine and year in jail.
>
>
>Wyoming is serious about its wildlife,
>we've put a lot of
>effort into it getting to
>where we are.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-17 AT 02:22PM (MST)[p]>I don't sale photos of deer
>I see.
>
>


But you do sell the information, and the price goes up by the size of the deer?

Your customers just take your word that the buck is as big as you say, without seeing any proof?

Very trusting customers you have.
 
Honest question for everyone opposed to founders service.

There have been scouting services for a long time in western Wyoming, (at least 10 years) Robby denning just to name one, and no one ever really blinked. So is it the fact that founder is selling these deer by the inches and not the act of scouting itself that detests you so much?

I will be following this issue closely and am curious to see where it goes.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-17 AT 03:21PM (MST)[p]We realize you love your wildlife Buzz, especially the outfitters loving to restrict average hunters from wilderness and wanting them to be catered too and protect the outfitting industry.

No one likes to see what we love, "hunting"get worse.

Trail cams, long range shooting, drones, better optics, etc. We need some regulations. There are a limited number of game animals.
I don't see if a hunter helps another hunter with some info and gets paid or not paid, should be a crime. Only hunters who are "legal outfitters" who have laws protecting themselves alone should be able to share information and be compensated.
 
The value of what I offer is the information, not a photo. I share all the photos for free on my site and Facebook. And yes, trust is quite important.


>LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-17
>AT 02:22?PM (MST)
>
>>I don't sale photos of deer
>>I see.
>>
>>
>
>
>But you do sell the information,
>and the price goes up
>by the size of the
>deer?
>
>Your customers just take your word
>that the buck is as
>big as you say, without
>seeing any proof?
>
>Very trusting customers you have.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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on Facebook!
 
No idea who Mr. Denning is. Yes, the fact that he emphasizes the B&C score is part of what I dislike about founders service. The fact that he or anyone else that runs a service like his is taking so much of the hunt out of hunting for these deer is what I dislike the most. Lets be honest, finding a legal buck in Western Wyoming is not a complicated thing to do. Finding a 160" buck is not that hard to do. Finding a 180" is more difficult. The act of trying to find the animal you want to kill is hunting. Founders service says, "here he is, found him for you, come kill him." His service does as much as he can to diminish the hunt and emphasize the photo op.
 
I oppose the wilderness guide law just as much, or perhaps more, than anyone else. Not many residents do. If you think I'm an apologist for outfitters, you'd be dead wrong. Ask Sy Gilliland how much I support outfitter sponsored legislation.

I also oppose selling information to Wyoming's wildlife as well and have supported the current legislation to make it illegal. I'll also support it during the session.

BTW, there is nothing in the current law that would prohibit helping out a buddy if no money changes hands, just like Nesvik said in the TV interview.
 
Come On!, the percentage of hunters who actually scout is probably in the single digits, so claiming that I'm taking "so much" out of the hunt is false. 90%+ hunters don't scout, so it's not any part of "the hunt" to most people.
Not sure how much hunting you do, but I can assure you those bucks I find aren't too often standing in the open during the hunt waiting for someone to kill them. In most cases, bucks found in the summer are never seen during the rifle hunt. And it takes serious hunting in most cases for someone to actually harvest one of those bucks. Anyone who thinks a hunter just shows up and kills these big bucks does not hunt them often, if ever. You claim that and it's not just me you're offending, but many others who have hunted particular bucks long and hard and not harvested them. Implying that they're easy to get if you know where they live is absolutely incorrect.
I know though it's an angle used to fool the ignorant.

But no doubt, knowing where one lives does help, but doesn't take all the "hunt" out of the game. In fact, most people just show up a day before the hunt, goes hunting and hopes for some good luck. A person I help does the exact same thing. The hunt they experience is no different than the vast majority.



>No idea who Mr. Denning is.
> Yes, the fact that
>he emphasizes the B&C score
>is part of what I
>dislike about founders service.
>The fact that he or
>anyone else that runs a
>service like his is taking
>so much of the hunt
>out of hunting for these
>deer is what I dislike
>the most. Lets be
>honest, finding a legal buck
>in Western Wyoming is not
>a complicated thing to do.
> Finding a 160" buck
>is not that hard to
>do. Finding a 180"
>is more difficult. The
>act of trying to find
>the animal you want to
>kill is hunting. Founders
>service says, "here he is,
>found him for you, come
>kill him." His service
>does as much as he
>can to diminish the hunt
>and emphasize the photo op.
>


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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on Facebook!
 
One of the stupidest laws I have seen. I do not like the practice but the law is absurd...

You can not prevent a person from selling their personal knowledge. Sorry it just can not happen. If I have the mark on a big buck and I decide to sell that knowledge, how can that be considered illegal?

The entire idea of it favoring a few hunters is absurd as well.

The only reason this is an issue is because the money hungry outfitters see it as a threat to their business. I have 1/2 a dozen bucks right now that people may or may not pay information on. However there is absolutely no way that we should passing laws that make it illegal to share personal knowledge...

Hell if that was the case then Randy Newberg should be shut down today. After he is making money by showing people his knowledge about hunting public land. Not all hunters can afford out of state licenses, therefore it is really unfair...
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-17 AT 04:51PM (MST)[p]We have a law making it illegal to use drones to scout. We are now considering a law against an unlicensed person selling gps coordinates or telling someone where they saw a big buck. However, if you are an outfitter you can fly until July 31, sell a $8000 hunt, and be booked until 2020 because of it. Who do you think are killing more big bucks in Western Wyoming? Brian's scouting service from the ground or multiple outfitters flying until July 31? Maybe we should make it a law that Brian can't sell GPS coordinates on bucks found after July 31 (sarcasm).
 
I agree with Elks...

There are so many companies out there that make a living off of helping hunters have a successful hunt. If what you guys are saying is true then gohunt, epic outdoors, rob denning, etc should all be shut down. Their services are helping all hunters be more successful.

I agree with Founder on this. If he wants to put in the sweat to find these deer and give information to someone, whether for free or for monetary reasons that is his decision.

If someone wants to pay Jason Carter to help them develop a plan to draw certain tags and be more successful that is their decision. None of these things make a hunt a slam dunk.

It sounds like to me Wyoming residents are not wanting people to come in and kill big bucks in their state? It is still public land and anyone has the right to hunt it that can draw the tag. Even is the law passed there is no way to stop this from happening. To me this is one way the outfitters are just not wanting any competition and are trying to force legislation.

In my opinion I would rather see this type of a things than so many outfitters out there. If people were just selling coordinates to deer, the "hunter" would still have to go out and find them for himself. Now days outfitting has gotten so ridiculous, one hunter per 15 guides. Mossback, WLH, etc.. I would much rather deal with what Founder is doing. It is still on the hunter to get it done, its not bringing someone on the mountain to just pull the trigger..

I do not see how this could stick nor be enforced.. I do agree with the drones and anything that can harass the wildlife. I just do not know how things like that can be enforced even though I would like for it to be.
 
What gets me fired up is when one of those outfitters who flies around all summer to find the biggest and best and then surrounds those bucks with 3 hunters and numerous guides to get that deer dead on opening morning sends me an email telling me that what I do is what is hurting quality mule deer.
After sending me the email he probably jumped in the plane and took off to find more. But he has a permit to outfit, so it's ok. I'm the one hurting quality mule deer. (huge eye roll and finger in the sky)


>LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-17
>AT 04:51?PM (MST)
>
>We have a law making it
>illegal to use drones to
>scout. We are now
>considering a law against an
>unlicensed person selling gps coordinates
>or telling someone where they
>saw a big buck.
>However, if you are an
>outfitter you can fly until
>July 31, sell a $8000
>hunt, and be booked until
>2020 because of it.
>Who do you think are
>killing more big bucks in
>Western Wyoming? Brian's scouting
>service from the ground or
>multiple outfitters flying until July
>31? Maybe we should make
>it a law that Brian
>can't sell GPS coordinates on
>bucks found after July 31
>(sarcasm).


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-17 AT 06:47PM (MST)[p]All he will have to do is get an outfitter's license and he is good to go. What's the big deal?

And this resident vs nonresident thing is ridiculous. Nonresidents are treated better in Wyoming than most all states. Period.

Here is the draft, there was an amendment on page 2 line 1, add "advertise or" between "shall" and "provide".

8118unnamed14.jpg


29146unnamed46.jpg
 
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-17
>AT 06:47?PM (MST)
>
>All he will have to do
>is get an outfitter's license
>and he is good to
>go. What's the big deal?
>
>
> And this resident vs nonresident
>thing is ridiculous. Nonresidents are
>treated better in Wyoming than
>most all states. Period.
>


Thanks for posting the draft bill. Interesting. Getting an Outfitters license may be the easiest part. Obtaining the commercial permit from the Bridger-Teton National Forest could be the hardest and providing insurance while your on BTNF lands. I highly doubt there are any available deer hunter days on BTNF lands for new outfitters. If the BTNF didn't feel that his scouting and selling information to hunters was going to count against the number of deer hunting days, then yeah this could be an option.
 
I hear that about every law on the books...they're all hard to enforce.

Plenty of savvy LEO's out there.

Plenty of stupid criminals out there too.

They collide quite often.
 
I believe I live in the neighborhood (at least one of them) that Founder scouts. I won't support this legislation. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

People have been pimping wildlife for generations. We live in an information age. I can buy a veritable library of books telling me how to find and kill good mule deer. Just with the pics in some of these books, I can find where some monsters were killed and the books tell me that if one was there, more will be too. If someone wants to sell the information that there is a Boone and Crockett buck in a particular drainage, or over a particular ridge, so be it. The average hunter is going to need a lot of luck to find and connect with that buck, even knowing where its core area is. If we are going to eliminate information sales, then we need to eliminate the guide business. The information is part of the package paid for.

If we want to work on legislation toward better ethics, we should eliminate the ridiculous wilderness restrictions for non-residents. I am sure we have more people dying, falling off the Tetons every year, than we ever will have hunters lost or killed hunting the wilderness.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-17 AT 08:38PM (MST)[p]mmwb,

Start the campaign to end the wilderness guide law, nothing stopping you. Find a legislator to sponsor it, draft the legislation, do the legwork...I'll support it.

Same with getting rid of guides and outfitters.

Pitter patter...go get at 'er...

In the mean time, its a smart move to stop the further pimping of our wildlife with the legislation we're talking about here. Best to nip it when its a small problem.

I wish you all the best (sincerely) in your endeavors to end guiding, outfitting, and repealing the wilderness guide law.
 
It really doesn't matter to me, Buzz. The proposed legislation just seems hypocritical to me, in light of existing things. Why add another to reams of current laws that are biased for or against special groups?
 
>It really doesn't matter to me,
>Buzz. The proposed legislation
>just seems hypocritical to me,
>in light of existing things.
>Why add another to reams
>of current laws that are
>biased for or against special
>groups?

Why is it hypocritical?

All Brian has to do is get an outfitters license.

We don't allow people to utilize our natural resources without a permit. Try waltzing into Wyoming and just start mining our coal, grazing/farming our State lands, or logging our timber resources without a permit.

Why should we allow someone to pillage, and profit from, our wildlife resources without a permit?
 
If founder wanted to truely help and wasn't about $ I would support him on this issue but it is all about $ and not helping another hunter. I thought this sight was all about helping but it becomes more clear every day it is about money and this is why the site isn't as good as it once was. Lots of people don't post here anymore because of this. There is a good chance this will pass, I know a couple legislators who support it and they are not from the west side of the state where this takes place.
 
We don't allow people to utilize our natural resources without a permit. Try waltzing into Wyoming and just start mining our coal, grazing/farming our State lands, or logging our timber resources without a permit.
OR, as it relates to me, you need a permit if you want to look at state land and tell others about the state land or where a mine is or where you saw a great tree that someone could buy a permit and cut down as a Christmas tree. Permits to talk about anything the state owns. Crazy!
If Wyoming really wants to cash in, they should begin forcing Google and other map companies to buy a permit if they want to share the locations of state highways on maps, or sharing school locations and everything else the state owns. They could pass laws prohibiting everyone who could profit from speaking about state property to have a permit that they issue. They could force us to buy a permit just to talk about the unconstitutional laws they're trying to pass.




>>It really doesn't matter to me,
>>Buzz. The proposed legislation
>>just seems hypocritical to me,
>>in light of existing things.
>>Why add another to reams
>>of current laws that are
>>biased for or against special
>>groups?
>
>Why is it hypocritical?
>
>All Brian has to do is
>get an outfitters license.
>
>We don't allow people to utilize
>our natural resources without a
>permit. Try waltzing into Wyoming
>and just start mining our
>coal, grazing/farming our State lands,
>or logging our timber resources
>without a permit.
>
>Why should we allow someone to
>pillage, and profit from, our
>wildlife resources without a permit?
>
>


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
What's not hypocritical about it is the better question? Supposedly everyone's concern is the pimping of the wildlife and making money off of these assets. This law is supposed to be for the benefit of the wildlife, but looks to me like if you are an outfitter it's fine to sell bucks to the highest bidder. Seems to me as long as the state is getting their share they don't give a damn. I'm not a fan of selling deer to the highest bidder nor the Utah model of wildlife. I agree with Buzz and JM77 99% of the time, but saying this isn't hypocritical is in Elks words "absurd".
 
Brian

Out of the scouting packages you sold how many of those people killed that buck? How many saw that buck but never killed it? How many never saw the buck at all?
 
>What's not hypocritical about it is
>the better question? Supposedly everyone's
>concern is the pimping of
>the wildlife and making money
>off of these assets. This
>law is supposed to be
>for the benefit of the
>wildlife, but looks to me
>like if you are an
>outfitter it's fine to sell
>bucks to the highest bidder.
>Seems to me as long
>as the state is getting
>their share they don't give
>a damn. I'm not a
>fan of selling deer to
>the highest bidder nor the
>Utah model of wildlife. I
>agree with Buzz and JM77
>99% of the time, but
>saying this isn't hypocritical is
>in Elks words "absurd".

I agree 100 percent! I don't "like" either option, selling gps coordinates or guides and outfitters. If they made a law making one legal and one not that would be "abusrd." Get rid of both of them, but there is no way they can make a law telling a person he cannot share information of what he "saw" on the public land.

The hunter still has to go in there and get it done. I am fine with this becoming law but I would like to see guiding and outfitting get the same treatment, to me they are one in the same.

Personally I will never use a guide or an outfitter or a scouting service. That is not how I want to hunt.
 
Brian,

You are not sharing a thing, you are SELLING information. Yes, you are "telling" people about the location of deer, but you sure as hell aren't doing it for free!!!!!

You not recognizing this as a problem also bring up the question of your morals in general. How much money did you earn last year selling his information? Did you happen to claim any of it on your taxes as income? Did you clear $2,000 or was it $5,000, or did you make more than $10,000 "sharing" your info?

I'll call it how I see it, your a scammer. As long as you get your cut then it's fine, right?

This site has many good people who share information for FREE in an attempt to help other hunters. You Brian are not one of them.

A shout out to Topgun, mightyhunter and many others for actually HELPING others!
 
I know and I am sure many others have received information from Founder free of charge on this site, so I wouldn't say it is all about the money. He is running a business as well, so I understand profiting from his services if deemed legal.

I am not a fan of his scouting services, but living back east I would consider using it. My preference would be to get information on "this is a good basin to check out", rather than "here is a 184" buck, does that work for you?"

If this law passes, could he just tell me that "______ is a good basin to check out" for $500 or would he need an outfitter license to do that? What if he told me "this historically has been a good basin". Is that okay? I think this law goes down a bit of a slippery slope. How about the issue of splitting points for knowledge of a big buck so both can draw? I have more of a problem with that then selling coordinates of a deer.
 
I think this
>law goes down a bit
>of a slippery slope. How
>about the issue of splitting
>points for knowledge of a
>big buck so both can
>draw? I have more
>of a problem with that
>then selling coordinates of a
>deer.

I know of 4 NR guys who averaged this year on antelope with two others with zero points. When they showed up, the two guys had all the blinds set up on waterholes and the four killed 4 bucks in a day and a half.

Sounds like a guided hunt to me!
 
OK, I am not for or against either option right now. But, as BUZZ claimed there is law that if you sale pictures on NF you need a permit.

OK, so honest question. Why can an outfitter/guide take pics of animals, put it on his web page and to show people the animals they have or even the animals they have killed and THATS OK? To me, that is a double standard.

But back to the point. A guide or outfitter is doing the exact same thing that Founder is doing. I have a friend who is a guide and lives here in Utah but guides in Wyoming. Yes he works for an outfitter, but he is from Utah. He does his work, gets tips and paid by clients and brings his money home to Utah. Is he wrong?

In my mind, Founder and a guide are doing the exact same thing. The only difference is Brian is not baby sitting the spoiled turd on the the mountain.

When I had mu Unit 45 elk tag in '14, I asked for help. People sent me lots of info. While on the mountain, I ran into lots of people who shared info. I rewarded them with meals and food and beverages. Maybe that was against the law.
 
The difference is Founder does not have a license and the guide has a license from Wyoming and from the National Forest service. I think that is what the intent of the law is....is to make Founder get an outfitter's license.

I believe he said that he was working for a guide now, so perhaps he has already seen the writing on the wall.
 
Fellas, the problem isn't necessarily one or a few doing this. It's all the guys that see it being done and now doing it also to make a buck.
The amount of people selling info about the location of a trophy animal is increasing and may likely grow to be what all can recognize as a serious problem.

We don't need to agree but this law will likely prevent the possibility of more serious trouble to come.
It for all practical purposes will make this a more controlled event. Cost will prohibit most from doing it legally. That in turn will lower the amount of guys doing it.

That's how I see it.

You can still sell this info, but just have to be properly licensed to do it and that's not cheap or a quick easy process.
But if you want to do it for profit, then it will be regulated just like most business in most states.

I can't find a fault in that, other than I would like to have seen it be prohibited for anybody to do it at all.
Selling GPS coordinates to a popular hang out of a trophy animal is not guiding or outfitting in my opinion.
It's more like trying to sell something you don't even own.

Anybody want to buy a bridge?
Not likely a good way to keep hunting in the average persons reach.
 
"Selling GPS coordinates to a popular hang out of a trophy animal is not guiding or outfitting in my opinion.
It's more like trying to sell something you don't even own."

The guides/outfitters are selling what they don't own:if you are meaning the wildlife. The only difference is that they will walk or ride a client to where the animals are vs. giving a coordinate or mark on a map.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-17 AT 02:35PM (MST)[p]Brian I know you are as hardcore of hunter as anybody, puts in a ton of time and does it yourself. It makes no sense to me that you would sell your hunting moral fiber to some fat slob that is too lazy to find a buck for themself? You know as well as I do that if you were in a unit in CO, UT, WY or anywhere else and had put in numerous days and hours of scouting to find the buck you want. You wake up opening morning to find some fat slob that pulled in the night before with a gps, a map, and a picture of the "his" buck that somebody else found for him and he paid to have the coordinates given to him, that wouldn't piss you off a little bit??? All I can say is I hope I never run into you in areas I hunt to be exploited to the lazy folks that have a little money to blow. Even if that fat slob doesn't kill the buck, he is sure going to put a damper on your hunt. It's garbage in my opinion and I guess I would never consider selling a bucks location that I have busted my ass finding, that totally contradicts why I hunt. Hell you even turned down help on your Paunsagunt tag because "You like To find the bucks yourself" haha now you are selling GPS coordinates to bucks....weird, To each his own I guess.
 
Bocephus,

Would you sell a bucks location if you didn't plan on hunting that buck? That is what founder is doing here. I agree, I don't like it, but he has not intention of hunting the buck he is selling GPS coordinates to.

Heck, it might help him eliminate a few people that could be hunting the buck he is hunting.

This whole thing is a bit crazy, maybe Wyoming should go more like Colorado and allow more tags while deer are transitioning versus so many tags when they are on their summer range.
 
Pepi,

No I wouldn't sell any coordinates to any buck. It's hard enough to find a good buck let alone sell him off to some schmuck that hasn't put in any time or effort learning the area. What a dis service to your fellow hunters that have put in the time. Not to speak of the guy that buys the coordinates haha how could you feel like you earned that deer or even feel good hunting him. To me there is no debate, its BS
 
No different than what outfitters do. Anyone who wants to do it legally should just get an outfitters license....
 
>No different than what outfitters do.
> Anyone who wants to
>do it legally should just
>get an outfitters license....


Exactly...
 
I hear you all, but what if a sheep hunter or elk hunter told you they saw a good buck in a specific drainage, would you hunt it?
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-17 AT 08:09PM (MST)[p]I guess I'm just getting tired of guys exploiting wildlife to make a dollar. The sheep hunter or elk hunter that gives a tip to a fellow hunter is a completely different story than selling them pics and coordinates, and an estimated score. I hate to see what it will be like and how much money it's going to cost my kids to go hunting....if it continues you will have every punk kid out looking and taking pictures of bucks then selling them for a finders fee. Oh wait....legal or not I don't agree with it.
 
My question to founder is this...

Would you be selling this info if you could pull in G or H tag every year?

If you think the lazy shmucks are keeping your info a secret you are kidding yourself. They are blasting your hard earned info to every jack knob that will listen.

Another fine example of the dollar and the internet ruining what was a very good thing....

And dont kid yourself if you think you havent screwed up a few good drainages by sending these knuckle heads with a check book up there...
 
>My question to founder is this...
>
>
>Would you be selling this info
>if you could pull in
>G or H tag every
>year?
>
He gets a tag in G every year by sharing points...

Outfitters are doing the same thing, except they are permitted and the hunters they are guiding have better odds of killing the bucks because the guide/outfitter is there physically helping them.
Outfitting isn't going anywhere... Unfortunately.

I think flying to scout should be against the law year round, why isn't it? Because outfitters still find the big bucks by flying in late July. You can recognize the giant bucks in July. I won't hold my breath waiting for that law to change. Outfitters are in bed with Legislators.

[font face="verdana" color="green"]
Jake Swensen
 
>>My question to founder is this...
>>
>>
>>Would you be selling this info
>>if you could pull in
>>G or H tag every
>>year?
>>
>He gets a tag in G
>every year by sharing points...
>
>
>Outfitters are doing the same thing,
>except they are permitted and
>the hunters they are guiding
>have better odds of killing
>the bucks because the guide/outfitter
>is there physically helping them.
>
> Outfitting isn't going anywhere... Unfortunately.
>
>
> I think flying to scout
>should be against the law
>year round, why isn't it?
>Because outfitters still find the
>big bucks by flying in
>late July. You can recognize
>the giant bucks in July.
>I won't hold my breath
>waiting for that law to
>change. Outfitters are in bed
>with Legislators.
>
>[font face="verdana" color="green"]
>Jake Swensen

Don't hold your breath Jake, do something about it. Don't know how you supported the efforts to get the ban, but if enough sportsman push a July 1 closure, we could make it happen.
 
For the life of me I don't see how it can be considered "unethical" to sell the coordinates of where a buck has been spotted when the buyer still has to transport himself to the location, locate the animal, successfully bag it, and then clean and pack it out himself.

And then turn around and say it is somehow "ethical" to pay a guide who feeds you, locates your buck, takes you there, tells you where to aim, cleans and packs out you animal, and basically does everything for you except pull the trigger and wipe your butt after you go potty.

To me, that is the height of unethical and unfair to the game animals.

Any legislation to make it illegal to sell coordinates is simply one more way to increase the government welfare assistance given to guides and outfitters in Wyoming.
 
>For the life of me I
>don't see how it can
>be considered "unethical" to sell
>the coordinates of where a
>buck has been spotted when
>the buyer still has to
>transport himself to the location,
>locate the animal, successfully bag
>it, and then clean and
>pack it out himself.
>
>And then turn around and say
>it is somehow "ethical" to
>pay a guide who feeds
>you, locates your buck, takes
>you there, tells you where
>to aim, cleans and packs
>out you animal, and basically
>does everything for you except
>pull the trigger and wipe
>your butt after you go
>potty.
>
>To me, that is the height
>of unethical and unfair to
>the game animals.
>
>Any legislation to make it illegal
>to sell coordinates is simply
>one more way to increase
>the government welfare assistance given
>to guides and outfitters in
>Wyoming.

Exactly! I would much rather have the GPS coordinates sold then outfitters all over the mountain. The hunter still has to kill the buck. I have seen a lot of big bucks that I have not gotten an arrow or bullet into..
 
Hey BuzzH
"graze our State lands, etc. to do so. There are permits and procedures to follow, why should it be any different with wildlife resources". HELL EVEN THE REP has no idea what land it on.
Now if was only STATE Lands. But it not it Federal lands most of the time. Hope like hell one day those in charge of MY federal lands decide to start charging those states that have outfitter welfare laws some Grazing fees for running those STATE animals on NF lands.
Hell maybe Trump could use that money to fix Texas and Florida.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 

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