News Article about Utah's Deer Hunt

A

AWHOLELOTTABULL

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-10 AT 08:55PM (MST)[p]I know this has been thrashed but I sure hope people show up to these RAC meetings with a head on their shoulders. One of the possibilities would be to cut the deer hunter numbers from 94,000 to 87,000? Oh my, what will we do? a 7000 tag cut is a spit in the face. It may help but only if you spread the pressure out into smaller units. This region thing has to go.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=294&sid=13186474

OK, let me have it. I took off the kevlar.:D


It's always an adventure!!!
 
it doesnt matter whats the difference in 15/100 and 18/100 nothing.... it wont satisfy the inch guys..

you could carve the whole state up into 100 units and it wont be good enough either... A few years ago some people couldn't find a big enough buck on the henry mtns so that is why Kelee cut the tags...


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
Very true SWB but the overall deer numbers are what people should be concerned with. Other than our LE areas and of course your beloved Front, it's pretty tough to find even a doe in some of the areas I hunt. I cound a pocket of good bucks this year but other than that I didn't see but a few more deer total. What I don't understand is why we keep offering doe hunts in this state. Can someone honestly say that the winter ranges are over crowed? I specifically paid attention to the area by Sheep Creek this year. It is an area that has been chained and reseeded several years ago. I hardely saw any big game on it period. Very few deer. I don't profess to be a biologist but it seems to me that reducing pressure, and spreading the pressure out is a good place to start.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
I hear ya about the more deer theory. Im all for more deer however Utah says it has been at 300,000 deer for about 5 years now. They want what 400,000 total? If you can fix this mystery then its solved..

But there has to be something to why the front has so many deer and bucks. I cant put my finger on it though. It doesnt have winter range, it has lots of coyotes, It is getting quite a few bears, I know it has lions and it gets hunted for 4 months straight by some of the most hard core hunters out and Im not talking about just the bow hunters. There are tons of dedicated hunters that hunt this area!

The only thing I can see is no wheelers, rifles and few elk. I guess this gives people the chance to see a big buck because they live a few more years and they simply cannot put it together to put one on the ground. Like me Im going on a 2 year drought unless I get one in the next few days.

This just doesnt happen on the rifle areas. People have a brown its down mentality and they have the equipment to get it done. This is why I say cut the rifle tags and make these guys chose a lesser weapon.. But this makes me a looser bow only guy I guess.

I just love to hunt and don't care what weapon i use if I get to hunt every year. i cant afford to hunt in other states so I choose to hunt with a lesser weapon here in Utah because it is the only way I can do this. Sometimes I get a buck but more often then not I eat tag soup. Ive been bow hunting hunting in Utah since 1989. In that time Ive only killed 8 bucks and Ive never wounded a buck. That's 8 deer in what 20 years of hunting. I know Im not the average guy when it comes to bow hunting. I am a step or two above the average guy and Im not just saying this to be rude. I also dont pass every buck that walks in front of me either. I usually will shoot the first 3 or 4 point that gets in range. So if im not the average hunter and ive only killed 8 deer in 20 or so years of hunting then it leaves me to belive a not so average guy will kill maybe 4 deer in the same time frame. That to me is a lot of bucks left living in the field and a lot of opportunity to hunt..

I know when its all said and done and they cut the tags,make smaller units, and cut my chances at drawing a tag every year then I am going to just choose a weapon that will allow me to put a deer on the ground period. This will no doubt make it harder for the die hard rifle guys to hunt by putting a butt plugg in the system.. There is no way im going to wait 4-5 years to hunt with a gay bow and Im not the only guy i know talking like this. in fact every one of my friends ive talked to have said the same thing.

the whole proposal thing makes me sick especially after this years success with all my friends and family hunting success. Everyone I know who hunted with a rifle in Utah killed a buck except one. The only one that didn't kill a buck was my buddy brodsideshots 14 year old daughter. She actually held out for a big buck by passing the dinks and had her chance at a 180 class buck on the last couple of days of hunting. you wont believe where they saw the buck if I told ya either.

I honestly think the deer herd is declining because of the elk. I never see deer in high numbers where I find elk. I dont know why this is the way it is but it is the same way on the front!!



4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
I agree with the argument that elk are a huge cause of deer decline. They push the deer out of the preferred fawning/calving grounds.

Look at San Juan in Utah. It once was a trophy deer unit, but once DWR managed it for elk, the deer quality dropped dramatically.

It is very hard to find a unit anywhere that is simultaneously a trophy deer and trophy elk factory with large herd numbers of both. It is one or the other.

On a side note...It has been documented that willow and aspens are coming back in Yellowstone since wolves decimated the elk population, it will be interesting to see if deer rebound in those areas. (I'm not advocating wolves, just posing a thought.)

Grizzly
 
If you just look at Utah, I would buy the whole elk pushing the deer out theory. However, Colorado has the largest elk herd in the world and they have some of the most densly populated deer herds in the western states. When I hunt Colorado I see elk and deer co-mingling everywhere I go. That kid of busts that theory. I just don't see the numbers at all. Lets just say that you're right on with the elk theory. So why not decrease the number of deer tags for a while to allow the deer herds to rebound? If they are down, and it seems everyone agrees on this issue, then lets stop hunting them so heavy for a few years. Even if it were to require a more balanced approach between elk and deer, you still have to give the deer a chance to recover. We can't keep hunting them like we do.

IMO the reason the deer thrive on the front is because of pressure. I agree that nut jobs like you and Jerry ;-) hunt the front like it should be hunted but there is no way "The Front" sees the pressure that other areas do. I consider myself a hardcore hunter but I have never hunted the front. Out of all the hunters I know, I only know 2 people personally that have hunted the front, and they don't do it on a yearly basis.

Anus Aude said in that article that if these changes were to take place, it would be the biggest changes in 15 years. 15 YEARS! Does it really take that long to change things. No wonder the deer numbers are down and can't recover. 15 YEARS!! Holy crap.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
I think BUTTmaster missed Option # 5?

This is Option # 5 Deer Management Plan:

4 Point or better in all 5 Regions!
You get caught trying to sneak a PISSCUTTER out You'll get a 100,000.00 Fine, forfeit your wheeler,the DWR siezes & Auctions your Gun off & You spend 1 year in the State Pen!

Ban every QuadQueer off the USFS & BLM!
You get caught You'll pay a 200,000.00 fine & your Quad will be donated to the local wrecking yard & ground up in to metal filings,you lose your hunting Privelidges for Life & spend 2 years in the state Pen!

Archery Hunters will only be allowed to use Recurves,Maximum 50 lb draw,you get caught with your high powered Mathews,BOWTECH,PSE,Hoyt,Browning,Etc it'll be a 300,000.00 fine & lose your rights to hunt for life!

Muzzleloader Hunters will only be Allowed to use Traditional/Hawken/Flintlock Type of weapons!
If you get caught with your High Powered Omega's & such there will be a 400,000.00 fine & 1 year with the local Bubba's down at the Jail Cell!

Rifle Hunters will only be allowed to pack weapons up to .50 Caliber(lol) with a maximum of 6X Scopes!
You get caught sneaking your 50X Scopes along with 2,000 yard RangeFinders & Long Range Scopes You'll be fined 500,000.00 & 2 years in the state Pen!

Archery Season will be 10 days long so get the days picked!

Muzzleloader season will be an early hunt & 9 days long!

Rifle Season will be 7 days long!

Non-Stop/Continuous/Overlapped Hunts of all kinds will come to a Flyin Hault!

There won't be any f'n cow hunts goiing on while Mule Deer are rutting!For GAWDS sake let them Relax & do their thing!

There will NOT be any SPIKE/PISSCUTTER hunts ever tried on the already suffering Deer Herd of Utah!

GEEZUS,shut them FRICKEN Doe hunts completely down!

The use of 1080 should be used again,but since we know that ain't gonna happen let's kill/trap every Coyote we see!

Let's start Fencing Hi-Ways/Installing Culverts & whatever else it might take to cut down on so damn many RoadKills!

If & when we got a problem with Mule Deer let's move them rather than kill them if at all possible!

***QUIT DECIMATING AREAS & OVER HUNTING THEM TILL YOU HAVE TO CLOSE THE AREA,STARTING A HERD OVER FROM AN INTER-BRED FEW IS TOTAL BS,FOR GAWDS SAKE QUIT SHOOTING THE GENETICS COMPLETELY OUT!***

Tell the Wolf Lovin Hippies just like I've told them,'Go ahead,bring them to Utah & We'll shoot every Damn one of them'!

If Cutting Tags for a few years is what it's gonna take,Sobeit!

Within a few years You'd see the Mule Deer Rebound & there'd be some decent Buck hunting in TARDVILLE once again!

I think Option # 5 will excite ww!
----------------------------------------------------------------

I'm with AWLB there BUTTmaster!
Although for the most part,Colorado Elk are not managed for Trophy Bulls,they have way more Elk than We do,WTF BUTTmaster?,kinda shoots your Theory down doesn't it?
So You're gonna puss out if there are any changes that might cut a few tags back & start using long range weapons huh?
Not saying the Gal didn't pass on the 180" Buck but what I will say:She's either a damn good hunter or a Fool?
You're always ranting & a raving about all these Giant Bucks you know about BUTTmaster,do you ever venture off the Wasatch?
Or just because you see a few big Bucks on the Wasatch you think there's just as many on other general regions?

Cutting Buck/Deer permits by 7,000 permits is a slap in Our face so go ahead & tell Anus Aude I said so!

38 years & counting of PISS POOR Mule Deer management,WTF?

It'll take major changes that will never happen because we have too many TARDS in this state that think they have to kill a PISSCUTTER every year!

I'm placing money bets that no matter what foolish/stupid changes are made it won't be enough to bring the World Class Buck hunting back we once had due to GREED & More PISS POOR management plans!

Get your money out BUTTmaster!



God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
cat
she tried like hell for that buck! she didnt pass it up! and yes we do venture off the front! All the rifle kills this year from family and frieds were off the front!!

It was a good year to have a rifle tag!


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
"the whole proposal thing makes me sick especially after this years success with all my friends and family hunting success. Everyone I know who hunted with a rifle in Utah killed a buck except one."

There is no doubt you have an agenda sw. This season could go down as one of the worst yet. Thats not polling a handful of people like you are doing.

You have got the Wasatch Front where there are a few big buck left. There is no doubt that it being archery only helps in growing big bucks, but who are you to tell everyone that they have to hunt like you do.
 
I have listened to the "elk" theory for the past few years....

I agree that it may cause deer numbers to decline. But, there is only a small decline IMO. Let look at the Box Elder area. Lets say, west of Tremonton to Nevada and South of Idaho to Brigham. How many elk populate this area? Not very many. Sure there are a few LE elk areas, but overall, for the large area, there are very few. Is the deer population booming in this area? Its been a few years since I have hunted it, but I doubt it is.

I'm not saying I have all the answers. However, to say the "over abundance" of elk is the main reason for the deer decline is WRONG.

I still think the state needs to be divided into more areas. Add some trophy units and keep some areas that have more tags.

Here is my top reasons for Lower numbers of deer:

1- Too many tags

2- Road Kills

3- Winter Kills

4- Predators

5- Too many roads. I am not saying close them all, but think that 75% should be closed.

Go ahead and argue away lol....

BTW, Doe hunts are the most ridiculous and stupid thing Utah could do. I would ban them....
 
I have said it 100 times, the amount of bucks don't matter for an overall deer population as long as you have 7 bucks per 100 does.

SO go ahead and cut out more hunters and you will see that it does NOTHING for the deer herd and only puts a few more bucks on the ground.

My hell you guys want the entire state like the Henry Mountains which is the biggest travesty in the history of Utah's deer hunt.

40 damn guys a year get to hunt a place that millions has been spent on. Why can't you guys see how wrong that is.

Wake up, you keep cutting hunters out and we wont be hunting at all.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
Fishon,

Seems to me you are the kind that are ruining the deer herd, you are satisfied as long as you have a tag and get a thrill out of killing a 1X1 you are the kind that if we let continue to hunt we will see no deer.

Maybe you should wake up and look at all the other states around us, none I repeat none are putting 94,000 hunters in the field, but if you want to continue to hunt nothing go ahead because that is where we are headed. I do not see Nevada, Colorado or Arizona out of deer and oh how do they do it, by managenment.
 
Curtis

If you knew me or my background you would see why your remarks are laughable. I traveled the west for 5 years as the President of the Mule Deer Foundation and met with every game agency about mule deer.

I am just a bit more informed on the dynamics then you may know.

No harm in your post but you really should know what you are talking about before you say it.



Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
Did I say that I wanted it managed like the Henry's Tony. You see, you are what they call a know it all. You speak everything as fact. Have you ever been wrong about anything?

Please let us all know when you have been wrong about something. I am waiting to hear about it...
 
Tony,

Given your prior position as president of the MDF, what is your take on UDWR's management of the deer herd over the past 20+ years?


In my opinion, as well as many others...the focus should be on the overall health and number of deer as a whole, and simply not trying to again "tweak" management to prouduce 3 more bucks per 100 does which does nothing for increasing the deer population.

I think it's safe to say that the UDWR's guesstimate of deer numbers in this state is far from accurate. It will never be dead on, due to the difficulty of getting exact numbers, but there has to be a better way.

I think micro-mangement could be helpful...if it's well thought out and they are fully invested in it. However, the UDWR claims that they will never have enough resources to manage our deer herd that way.

I just don't think or believe that mule deer management can stay stagnant for that long...at some point they need to realize that their management needs to have some sort of dynamic aspect to it.


BowHuntr
 
And because you were president you seem to know it all but failed to answer anything about the other states success in going to unit management. If you know so much, you would understand that these other states have better mule deer hunting than utah and no the units are not like the Henry's.

You are right, I may not have traveled the world like you have, but take it from someone who loves the outdoors and has some common sense. There is not 300,000 deer in Utah and there is not 15 bucks to every hundred doe in utah. The deer herd is in a critical downward spiral and if we the real sportsmen can see that and are willing to do whatever it takes, maybe people like you need to jump on board and help in this voice rather than to find the best way you can to get another tag next year.
 
Again laughable

I have not attacked you yet you seem to want to accuse me of things that are not true. I am VERY involved and always will be. The problem is not to many hunters it is not enough deer.

Cutting hunters out has proven to do NOTHING for a deer population.

I will be at the central rac this evening and would love to meet you if you will be there and voice your opinion.

regards
Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
Why does killing the bucks destroy a herd. You don't need 18 per 100 to have a healthy growing herd.

I also want to talk about the doe tags. I added up all of the doe tags they issued and it was 1,000 for areas that are mainly public and 600 for mainly private areas. you are trying to tell me the 1,600 does that may be killed every year is stopping the herd from growing another 100,000 animals.

environmental factors limit our deer herd more than the hunters in this state have for a long time.

alpinebowman

>>>---shots that are true pass right through--->
 
Utah won't stick with a plan long enough to see if it will work or not.

I think the problem is killing them in fields on winter range. Stop doing that and there will be more deer. I wish I could find a number on how many are actually taken, but can't. Deer don't hurt anything in a field during the fall or winter. Elk are hell on fences, I can see keeping them out but leave the deer alone!

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
Cutting out hunters does improve the buck to doe ratio which is what the options are trying to achieve. I have enough common sense to know that 45,000 hunters will kill less bucks than 94,000 hunters.

I will agree that it will not help increase the does or the deer herd which does need to be addressed but does not seem to be one of the options at this time.

All I am saying is it is easy to see that DWR is offering option one as the least painful by cutting a small 7% in tags. Anis Aoude, a year ago told you guys in the central region and I quote You can limit harvest by limiting the number of permits. Not sure that a small 7% cut is going to do much but if we continue like we have it will only get worse.
 
I don't know how many of you remember, but a few short years ago Colorado sustained one of the worst winter kills in 50 years. From Delta down to Montrose, deer were laying dead everywhere. I saw the devastation first hand. When it came time for the draws, some of those units tags were cut 90%. Colorado's DWR took a big revenue hit the next couple of years. Just last year they gave out a few more tags and are planning to do the same this year pending the results of this years winter kill. Now if you took that same scenario in Utah we would have never cut tag numbers. Hell, we may have even give out more because we think that the winter ranges are overrun with deer. Ok, that's little over-doing it but you get my point. Utah is revenue driven PERIOD! I don't care who you, or what your title is, was or will be, you can't tell me that decreasing hunting pressure will not improve deer numbers. Like somebody posted above, putting 47,000 hunters in the field vs 90,000 will obviously allow more deer to survive. That's just simple math there. I know there are a ton of factors involved and habitat is a huge part but it should be an all out assault to preserve our deer herds.

Tony, i agree that if you cut out hunters you may reduce the new hunters that will be recruited, but I also strongly feel that if you don't cut the pressure you will see the total destruction of our hunting far faster than if you lose a few new hunters. I for one will always hunt and so will my kids. We will hunt in other states until Utah gets their act together


It's always an adventure!!!
 
I think that if they cut the number of hunters afield the sucsess will go way up. There is a point of dimminising returns. For what it's worth, I think Utah needs some dramatic changes in their deer hunting. The changes will hurt in the short run but help in the long run. The overall deer herd is hurting and Utah needs to look proven tactics to raise overall herd numbers. Like many have said. The buck to doe numbers are not always the best IMO. 50 bucks to 100 does sounds great but if Utah only has 10,000 deer than that number is not so great. JMO but I think the DWR needs to take drastic steps to increase total deer numbers and not look at only buck to doe ratios. A good start would be to stop all the does hunts and kill as amny yotes as they can.
 
>Cutting hunters out has proven to
>do NOTHING for a deer
>population.
>

If that's the case, why is it when the DWR cut the tag numbers to zero on the Paus, Book Cliffs & Henry Mts because their deer populations were almost at zero, the deer population magically rebounded to great numbers in a matter of a few years?
 
There were still alot of does on the Book Cliffs at the time of closure. It was the bucks that were down and when they closed it for a couple of years it was the bucks that rebounded.
 
KTG

1st off the deer herds were not zero in those areas, I know about the Book Cliffs personally because I hunted there for many many years before it was closed.

There were plenty of deer just low buck numbers.

Answer this

How does not killing bucks drastically increase a deer herd?

It doesn't. Look at the Henry Mountain. They stopped killing bucks and now there are stomper bucks but the overall deer herd is in poor shape. And only 40 people get to hunt it every year.

TRAVESTY.....

Look at any biology on deer herds and you will see that 7 bucks is all that is needed to SUCCESSFULLY breed 100 does. Saving bucks only helps buck numbers, DOES on the other hand affect the herd population.

BUCKS DO NOT HAVE BABIES!

We are not hunting does in this state, the key is get more does to have more babies and get those babies to survive.

Kill all the bucks or as few of bucks as you want, IT WONT FIX THE REAL PROBLEM.








Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
Hey sw?

Thought you were a bonified StickFlipper?


God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-10 AT 05:48PM (MST)[p]7 mature bucks might get the job done on 100 does but I think some studies show that it should be more like 10 at least.

But when 6 of those 7 bucks are only one and a half, or two years old alot of the does will have to wait an extra month to get bred. Those late season fawns can have less chance of survival come winter, depending on conditions.

That being said I agree there is way more to it than the buck to doe ratio.
 
Jason

I don't know it all and have never claimed to but what I know is this

Utah has killed more lions then any other state
Utah has killed more coyotes then any other state
Utah has done more habitat then ALL the other states combined
Utah has fenced roads, built underpasses and got tough on party hunting and poaching.

Utah has cut out 134,907 deer hunters since 1983

And none of this has fixed the deer herds

Utah killed 24,763 bucks in 1993 when there was 140,701 tags
Utah killed 25,000 bucks in 2003 when there was 97,000 tags
Utah killed 24,000 bucks in 2009 when there was 94,000 tags

Do you see the numbers? Less hunters in field and they still kill the same amount of bucks. But now we have less people to help fight our fight.

Wake up and realize it is a deer issue not a buck issue.

All the while elk have increased from 5,000 in the 70's to 25,000 in 1983 to 68,000 2009

Elk are the ONLY thing that has not been looked in to or addressed in this state.

These are not my facts these are facts from the state and WAFWA (western association of fish and wildlife agencies).

So make fun of me and try to belittle me but understand I am dealing in BIOLOGICAL facts about what we have tried in Utah and what we have not.

The deer herds are no better then they were in 1983. The only thing Utah has not tried is getting rid of some elk. In fact we have been increasing elk.

FYI, a local Sportsmans group is threatening the DWR that if they don't increase elk by 20,000 then they won't support putting any more money into habitat and they will go the legislature and get the money put towards predator control.

Is this how we should try to fix things?

LAUGHABLE

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
Apology!

sw!

Now I've got one of your friends stirred up!
When I said: 'She's either a damn good hunter or a fool'
Didn't mean no harm in what I said when I said 'Fool',just misunderstood what you posted & thought she had turned a 180" Buck loose in hopes of finding a bigger Buck,My Bad!

I just found out she's a dang good Hunter!

So I stuck my Paw in my mouth,1st time you know?:D

My definition of Fool = selective!

Just wanted to clarify that!

Now let's Hash it out sw?

Did you Rifle Hunt this year?






God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
Well fishon?

If you don't some Elk have been knocked down the last few years You are very wrong!

I haven't seen the Deer herd changing though,other than getting worse,WTF?

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-10 AT 06:20PM (MST)[p]Tony, I don't believe cutting tags is THE answer, but I believe it to be a part of the answer, at least until the herd is at it's objective, both buck:doe and total population. I don't see how a single buck makes it through the year alive on a general season hunt. Seems like the pumpkin patch has every square inch covered on opening morning, at least in the NE region.
And I don't mean the population numbers that the DWR pulls out of their... ears. They must really smoke some good stuff before they go counting. I'd add a healthy dose of predator control and bring back chaining and clear cuts in a big way (probably never happen).
All I know for sure is that the management that has been happening could be identified as government by anyone with an IQ above 10.
 
So Tony, you said how all these thoughts and ideas won't work but haven't offered up what will work. So what is it? What will work in your oppinion? Reducing pressure on deer herds does not just include shooting bucks. Out of the 97,000 hunters out pounding the hills, how many of those do you think shoot a doe "on accident". Does it affect herds having 97,000 people trapsing through your bedding areas, stressing the does and fawns out? Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide! Don't tell me that doesn't take it's toll on herds. If the DWR goes with option #1 on their list, Utah's herd size will never recover. NEVER!!! You're not stupid Tony. Look at our neighbors and tell what they are doing that we aren't. Wyoming, Colorado, Arizona, etc. have smaller units and less pressure in those units. I've got a friend that drew his deer hunting unit in Colorado on his 4th choice and has seen 20+ bucks so far with one of those a 180+ buck. Just talked to him tonight. Even a 4th choice unit in Colorado beats our units that people can't draw and hunt every year. You tell me what we are doing wrong and how to fix it.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Easy Bull!:D

Looks like to me the MDF coulda made the Utah Deer herd Famous by now,WTF?

It happened with the Elk fishon!

Why hasn't the MDF made it happen with the Deer?

I don't even wanna hear that 95% of TARDS just wanna kill a Dink!

I've said it for years but nobody seems to get it:
You can't pressure a Game Herd from mid August(July for alot of Scouters)on in to January & February with Bullsshit Cow slaughters(that are 4 months pregnant)and ever expect anything good in the future!

Utah couldn't manage fish in a barrel let alone a Game herd in the Wild!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
this is for Jim and BESS

Yes bess I have shot my rifle this year. .270 wsm at a doe antelope and I will be using it on a cow elk in December in your neck of the woods. I am a pretty good shot with it and I tell you it is a sweet shooting sob. I can hit anything out to about 600 yards without even thinking too much about it..

Jim you asked me if I even get off the front.. Well yes I do I go with family and friends every year if im in town when the hunt is going on. I would like to ask you a question now. Why haven't you ever or any of your friends ever had a look on the front or hunt the front? If you have you would no doubt see how good hunting in utah can get.

Since I have educated myself by hunting in both areas and have seen the difference in both areas I think I can make an educated guess on how to improve hunting in the crappy areas. It is almost just like you said cut the hell out of the rifle tags and turn them into muzzy or archery tags. I would say this is a better step then to go out and cut your own balls off so to speak by cutting all the tags. This still allows revenue for the state and still allows a hunter to pick up a lesser weapon and still hunt. It however does not mean they will fill their tag!

there is no way to argue one way or the other on these forums your point when one side of the argument has not nor will not try another way to hunt and Im not talking to you Jim on this issue. Its pointless all it does is pit one hunter against the other. Who the hell needs peta when we as hunters attack each other. It is also pointless to argue your point when a few words you type never convey your proper tone or mannerisms of how you normally speak. People always twist what you are saying around.

I know I am pushing a solution that will never gain any traction. I also hope to hell the agendas the inch guys are pushing don't gain any real traction. I guess this is how the political BS plays out.

By the way did you see that the northern rac voted 12-0 in favor of proposal 1. 7,000 tag cuts keep the 5 regions as they are. This means about 45 bucks per region will get saved and we will have 18/100 ratios.

by the way Bess if you want a lazy LE quality deer hunt where you can shoot a 180+ buck our your car window put in for a LE hunt like I do and wait your turn! This is what you always say to me!!!! :D

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
Bess why is it you want to force me to hunt piss cutter elk but its not ok for you to hunt piss cutter deer? That's messed up!

its the same mentality from elk/deer in utah.. you get to both hunt spikes on general units/six points in le units
or
spike deer on general units/4 points in le areas. Its the same mentality but you think one is gay and one is the next best thing to Budweiser!!

so why are you so hell bent on changing it? why is one good for elk and one not good for deer?

at least im consistent in saying on both issues they could still issue tags to lesser weapons without shooting out all the quality for you die hard rifle guys!


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
WTF you talking about sw?

I hunt PISSCUTTER Deer every year!

WTF you don't get is:

Buck huntin could be way better than it is now sw!

(I'm talking about letting some of the Bucks reaching their potential sw,you hear me?)

You were born a little late,I don't think you have a clue to what this state once produced!



God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-10 AT 08:39PM (MST)[p]your the one that doesnt have a clue or you cant read either way it doesnt matter.

I know you hunt piss cutter deer every year and I hunt piss cutter elk every year.. That was my point. I have max deer points and you have max elk points. This means your happy with telling me to pound sand and hunt piss cutter elk and wait my turn to hunt a Le unit. Well Im saying the same thing to you. Pound sand and hunt piss cutter deer and wait your turn to hunt a LE quality buck!! The states management for elk is the exact same mentality for deer. If you cant see this then your thicker in the head then i give you credit for.

You tell me to pound sand when I want to mess with the elk and Im telling you to pound sand when you want to mess with the deer.

So your fine with hunting piss cutter elk and Im fine hunting piss cutter deer. Except you and I know you don't hunt piss cutter elk every year in your neck of the woods and I dont hunt piss cutter deer in my neck of the woods. So I will be coming out in your neck of the woods next year with quite a few of my closest friends that want to hunt those not so piss cutter elk in your neck of the woods with rifles.. :D

I can guarantee you wont set foot in my neck of the woods for deer so those not so piss cutter deer are still safe!! :D


This is the good old days bess the deer and elk in utah keep breaking b&C records every year. They keep breaking p&y records every year also.. We used to have loads of deer and no elk now we have loads of elk and no deer.

I don't care what you think or the division thinks but elk do affect the deer especially if the land is at caring capacity which I believe it is. Ive seen it first hand to deny the facts! There is no other reason in the great elk areas the deer numbers are suffering and the great areas for deer the elk numbers are suffering!

whether you like to admit it or not the ideas i have been suggesting this whole time could and would help out in both deer quality, elk quality and quantity or max available tags.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
swb - you need to go back and re read these posts. I never said you didn't get off the front. That was somebody else. I was actually paying you and Jerry a compliment. I know you guys like to hunt the front. In fact, the first time I ever met Jerry he had mentioned the front. That is the first time I had even paid attention to it. If you read my other post, I said that I have friends that hunt the front but they don't do it religiously like you guys. I don't hunt the front because I have a business to run and by the time it's time to hunt for myself, hunting season is over.

And I can't tell you how glad I am that the Northern RAC voted 12-0 for Proposition #1. Yeeeehaaaaaaa! Oh well, at least I can afford to hunt in other states. For those that have to hunt Utah, I'm really sorry.

Another thing there swb - you better hope that everybody doesn't catch on to the size of bucks on the front and how good you say it is. It won't be a solitary place anymore and then that deer herd will go down hill as well. You even said it yourself. The front doesnt have the habitat/winter range are the acres that the other units do so why do they have good deer? Pressure. That is the only variable left. And oh by the way, as Fishon and you have said, just because there are big bucks and a lot of them doesn't mean you have a great deer herd. Am I right?


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Don't F with me sw!

I never said Elk didn't effect deer!

Just sayin:

Both the General Elk & Deer Herds could be way better Quality with some decent management!
Problem is you Opportunist Freaks can't stand to see some tags cut when they really need to be cut!
And for GAWDS sake 7,000 is a slap in any Sportsmens face,that won't do JACK so don't tell me it will!

No matter the CHANGE,it won't be severe enough to help fix Utahs Suffering Deer herd,if you don't see this sw you'd best wake the hell up!

So you just keep pisscuttin for Elk & I'll keep pisscuttin for Deer,I see no & Expect very little change with such rediculous Game management!

There's more to life than being able to possess a PISSCUTTER tag every damn year!

So sw?

You & your family dropped the Bows & picked up the long range rifles this year huh?
What kind of Bucks did you get?
PM me if you don't want it posted here on MM,I know it's a secret!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
HEY CAT do ya think elk have any effect on deer???

29 units has yet to have a motion seconded to bring it up for a vote...







*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Bess
you don't post the elk you and your family and friends have shot and told everyone on the net where they shot them so why should I post the deer my family and friends have shot. If we weren't shootn good bucks don't you think I would be on the band wagon of cut the hell out of the tags?

I can tell you this it was a good year for everyone except me.


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
I grew up during the time when they closed the Paunsagaunt. The fall before they closed it we put 3000 miles on dirt roads with a spot light out there and saw 5 does, TOTAL!!! After 5 years of being closed we had the best mule deer unit In The World! The proof is in the puddin. It is as simple as WE HAVE GOT TO QUIT KILLING THE DAMN DEER. ITS THAT SIMPLE. IT WORKS. WE HAVE A MODEL THAT HAS BEEN PROVEN TO WORK. I WITNESSED IT FIRST HAND. YOU CANT ARGUE WITH THE FACTS!!!
 
Jim this is why I hate the internet and these post sometime. like I said things never are what they seem and things are typed that are the way you want them to sound. I know for a fact I could sit at any deer camp with you,Bess or another guy on this hunting fourm and have a dang good time.. typing on the puter is not my strong points and neither is english/grammer.. sometimes I go back and re read my posts and go huh. anyway you did say you had your flack jacket on so I hope I didnt give you to much flack.

Have a good one Bess. Utah is going to have mule deer change this year. The racs are total BS and the wildlifeboard will vote how ever it wants and it wants 29 units. Just wait and see they will go against the way the sportsman in this state want to manage their game..

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
AS mentioned. If you have 15 bucks per 100 does that is more than enough for a healthy deer herd. 18 bucks may improve quality of hunt slightly. Not the over all health of the herd.

The 4 major factors that effect over all numbers are:

1. Predators mainly Coyotes and lions. ( including the constant harrassment from lions and coyotes chasing deer, leading to sickness,burning fat reserves, and aborted fetus in does, etc.)


2. Weather, winter kill especially in Northen Utah. Green up in the spring.

3. Road kill. Example. Deer kills between Smithfield UT and Richmond exceed 100 per year. Hunters at both check stations, Logan and Blacksmith Fork has checked in less than 100 deer per opening weekend. Estimated 65+% of the harvest. Not to mention Logan Canyon road kills, Blacksmith fork, Sardine Canyon, and othe roads. More deer are killed by Cars than Hunters.

So the THREE C's. Cougars, Coyotes, and Car's.

4. Habitat. The amount and condition of habitat, so deer can put on enough fat reserves.
Fat reserves are checked on road kills, to help identify the deers health in that area.

5. Elk on winter range can and do compete with deer. Not a big problem why the deer are not recovering in most areas imo.

Changing the hunt from 15 to 18 bucks per 100 does will do nothing in the big picture and over all management. Hunting changes, if you have 15 bucks per 100 does, will do nothing to improve the amount of deer in the long run.

I too have been to alot of meetings over the years. I don't have all the answers. Some of my thoughts as well.
 
First off, there is a misconception that the division instigated these changes, they didn't. The wildlife board with coercion from a couple of pink elephants ordered them to come up with a few proposals to go along with the WB desired option 2.

Secondly, I find it completely laughable that everyone wants to discount science and biology in lieu of Bubba's opinion, based on what he heard from uncle Earl at the coffee shop. It was completely transparent at both RAC's that supporters of major change were the less educated of the bunch. They refuted pretty much anything BIOLOGISTS had to say because it didn't fit the criteria for pushing uncle Earl's plan through. Brilliant.

Jim, I sincerely hope you don't have an uncle Earl. :)
 
I agree with TREE that there is a misconception about the division instigating the change. I believe that it was a wet dream of a certain special entrust group whom we all know so well and I also believe that they would love nothing more than to see option #2 go through. Look at the benefit to them $$$! Truly think about it.
 
>Another thing there swb - you
>better hope that everybody doesn't
>catch on to the size
>of bucks on the front
>and how good you say
>it is. It won't
>be a solitary place anymore
>and then that deer herd
>will go down hill as
>well. You even said
>it yourself. The front
>doesnt have the habitat/winter range
>are the acres that the
>other units do so why
>do they have good deer?
> Pressure. That is
>the only variable left.
>And oh by the way,
>as Fishon and you have
>said, just because there are
>big bucks and a lot
>of them doesn't mean you
>have a great deer herd.
> Am I right?
AWHOLELOTTABULL, are you serious, you think there are people that don't know there are big bucks on the front? Everyone knows about SW?s ?honey-hole? and there is a TON of PRESSURE. Over 16,000(or more if you include dedicated hunters) people have the option to hunt it. The OPPORTUNITY to kill a QAULITY buck is there. Look at that??QUALITY and OPPORTUNITY in the same unit.

Not to mention the herd is healthy and stable in a unit with limited winter range, open season on does, hunting during the rut and a 4 mo season. Based on current population models from the DWR, the herd in the archery area is steady at around 1400-1600 for the last 3 years. The variable that is missing???..? long range weapons.


Before you start thinking I am gun vs archery guy; I am not. I just took my best buck to date with a rifle this year and loved every minute of it. At the same time I love the archery hunt. I guess in my mind I am a WIN/WIN guy.

So why not make a WIN/WIN here???.

Rather than cut tags period why not shift tags on units that are struggling with buck-to-doe ratios from rifle hunts to less effective weapons like archery/muzzle loader? Lower success rates on bucks would lead to higher buck-to-doe ratios and improve quality but people would still have the opportunity to hunt?

Would you rather hunt 1 in every 3-5 years for a ?quality? buck or hunt every year with a muzzle loader/bow with the possibility to draw a rifle tag every 3-5 years? I understand that most people prefer to hunt with a rifle but at least with what I am proposing they would have the chance to hunt if they wanted.
 
>First off, there is a misconception
>that the division instigated these
>changes, they didn't. The wildlife
>board with coercion from a
>couple of pink elephants ordered
>them to come up with
>a few proposals to go
>along with the WB desired
>option 2.
>
>Secondly, I find it completely laughable
>that everyone wants to discount
>science and biology in lieu
>of Bubba's opinion, based on
>what he heard from uncle
>Earl at the coffee shop.
>It was completely transparent at
>both RAC's that supporters of
>major change were the less
>educated of the bunch. They
>refuted pretty much anything BIOLOGISTS
>had to say because it
>didn't fit the criteria for
>pushing uncle Earl's plan through.
>Brilliant.
>
>Jim, I sincerely hope you don't
>have an uncle Earl. :)
>


So I guess we should believe all the forrest hippies out that and start to understand that "Global Warming" is real??? Uncle Earl AKA Al Gore.
 
looks like the central rac voted 10-1 and one dude didnt vote at all.

this makes the count 22/1/1 for proposal one.. looks like the northern region is going to see 7,000 tags cut. The rest of the state is over objective with buck to doe ratios.


SFW and the wildlife board also got blasted last night for trying to sneak this BS through at the last minute. Finally good to see people waking up to the SFW/board BS thats going on.


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
>looks like the central rac voted
>10-1 and one dude didnt
>vote at all.
>
>this makes the count 22/1/1 for
>proposal one.. looks like the
>northern region is going to
>see 7,000 tags cut. The
>rest of the state is
>over objective with buck to
>doe ratios.
>
>
>SFW and the wildlife board also
>got blasted last night for
>trying to sneak this BS
>through at the last minute.
>Finally good to see people
>waking up to the SFW/board
>BS thats going on.
>
>
>
4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

>
>The harder you work the luckier
>you get!!

I believe the tag cuts will be distributed through the Northern, northeastern and south eastern units.


www.bowhuntersofutah.com
 
Well sw?

What don't you like about option # 5?

With proper management the tags would only have to be cut for a very short few years!

If we keep poundin PISSCUTTERS like we have been for many years your Opportunist tag ain't gonna be worth a damn in the very near future!

Now?

Should we make some Wise changes now?

Or keep poundin the already suffering Deer herd like we've been doing forever & just see what happens?

Maybe we should just do a Prayer & hope for the best?

It must really bother you sw?(The thoughts of not having a PISSCUTTER tag in possession every year?)







God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
thanks fision for all the time you put into your data research.. you are one of the guys that seems to know whats going on..

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
B_Bop,

What did this state ONCE produce? And when was that? And how did that super production come about? Just curious if you really know what you are talking about, or if all of your posts are you just trying to joke around..
 
Well Elmer!

You think I'm f'n with you?

GEEZUS!

This state once produced the largest Mule Deer Herd in the World!

60's through about 1972!

Everything me & AWLB says is total BS,just ask the MM Pro's on here!

I don't see where I studdered in Option # 5?



God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
Mountaintime - just because there are 16,000 people that have the option to hunt it doesn't mean they do. If you polled all the archers in the state I would just about bet that not even 1/4 of them hunt the front. In fact, I would just about bet that you wouldn't see 2000 archers on the front. Please don't try and tell me that "The Front" gets pressure like other places. You're not talking to a rookie.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Tree,
The scary thing is that people that presented for option 2 are probably the most knowledgable. They are ones looking through the DWRs BS and asking for real HERD managment not Hunter managment. Hunters supporting Option 1 and 3 are only concerned about not being able to hunt every year, FACT! They show no intrest in the future of our deer herds if it means sitting out at all and I even heard RAC members say as much! I believe you would buy anything the DWR presents to just support the DWR. I think that probably comes from personal relationships with them and not pure boilogical backing. It was the Wildlife Board that asked for changes because that is what the DWR agreed to last year and was doing nothing. You know that all the chips are not out on the table at the RAC meetings! If you don't then I would certainly question your knowledge of the situation!

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
that is what I was trying to say at the rack meeting by makeing the cwmus tag for tag insted of a 90 10 split tag for tag would help with some of the hunting presure. cwmus can choose if the want a 90 10 split or a 85 15 or a 80 20 but if the choose 90 10 then all the antlerless tags go to the public. then I asked why don't they let us spot light for preditors and anis dodged it by saying shoot all the coycote's you want we don't have law on that. but if you spot light with a gun were there is big game then it is permafacia evidence that you are hunting big game. Every county has it's own law's on spot lighting so you have to contact the sheriff to see what the law is and if you can spotlight in that county.
 
Thats a great article. Unfortunately there are a few on here that will read this and say are herds are just fine.
 
Muley,

You hit it right on, this is not about trying to find the best way to get another tag next year, this is about saving the deer herd. Anyone not trying to save the herd are selfish at this point. How can they spread tag cuts across just three regions, I guess they think the southern region is just full of deer. Sounds like we will get all the hunters like usual and our deer herd cannot sustain it anymore than the other regions can. There is no deer anywhere, including Southern Region.

It is time we looked at how to increase the deer herd not how to increase mine and your chance of getting another deer tag.
 
Ya! Send em down! We have plenty of deer for everybody in the state down here. Are you serious? What a bunch of bull. I agree. We need to save the herds regardless of anything else. Might as well talk to a wall than the DWR.
 
B_Bop,

No need to be rude unless that is in your nature. Biggest mulie population in the world eh? Good for utah then. So you seem to know what you're talking about, guess you have been hunting deer here for a long time then. Why was the herd so big back then and not anymore? Sure they got knocked down by bad winters and prolonged droubts, and a bunch of other stuff. Just trying to understand your thought pattern. Are you saying hunters today are the problem with mulie population in utah now? Seems like it with your plan 5 thingie.
 
People need to stop trying to manage for inches, manage for a healthy herd and the rest will follow!

Work on winter range, access to winter range for the animals. Over or under highways with fences along highways.

Quit giving stuff to special interest groups, if your going to do that, have the state handle it so the money will go into wildlife instead of a CEO's pocket.

I like bobcats idea of bringing back 1080.

Stop shooting deer because the are a "problem animal" while on winter range.

Early season cow tags, CUT DOWN ELK NUMBERS!!!

After nov 1 there should be no big game hunts going!

I like sw's primitive weapons idea, it makes sense!

I didn't like the 5 day hunt. But now I do, I know for a fact that there were quite a few little bucks that should be around next year.

STICK WITH A PLAN LONGER THAN 1 YEAR!!!

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
I just don't get some people? All of these ideas are spot on! Including designating some units to be primative weapon only! I think that would be a great thing!

SO ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE EASIER TO IMPLEMENT WITH 29 SMALL UNITS. EACH UNIT CAN GET FOCUS ON EXACTLY WHAT WILL HELP THAT UNIT!

Anis in his presentation states that each unit is currently managed as we speak. Great but that is not a full truth. I personally asked Anis if we lose control of each unit once the hunts open and they are thrown into a region? He answer was YES WE DO LOSE CONTROL OF EACH UNIT AT THAT POINT. So in complete truth we are not managing each unit to what is very best for that unit....FACT! Let me state that again...YES WE DO LOSE CONTROL OF EACH UNIT AT THAT POINT!!!! I promise I want to hunt probably more than most on this site. I would hunt with a rock in loin cloth if they had a season. But the most important issue right now is pin point accuracy in what is causing a loss of deer in the state of Utah and the best option I see is to break it down into small enough pieces that each can be addressed!

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-10 AT 03:24PM (MST)[p]Exactly. There are 50 CO's STATEWIDE to cover every hunt that takes place from Park Valley to Shivwits. My experience is that many people think that money for herd counts, law enforcement, research etc. is bountiful and that the DWR is wasting it all on frivolous projects.

Some people will always be complainers by nature.

www.bowhuntersofutah.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-10 AT 03:44PM (MST)[p]Why don't we take the money/tags the state gives sfw, mdf, rmef, nwtf and so on and use the money for law enforcement and habitat improvements. Fences on highways with overpass or underpass's for the animals to cross for more access to winter range.

If they want money or still want to be around they can figure out a way to do it without taking away tags from the draws or wasting money people donate on corporate retreats and such. We don't know where the money they make goes but we sure as hell know where it comes from!

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
So fishon?

We gonna keep killing Does?

WAFJ!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
Tony, will you take some time to digest this article and tell us your thoughts on it? You keep saying that cutting buck tags will do nothing, but I disagree.

Does it all starts with the bucks?
Have you ever wondered what goes on in bachelor groups of bucks during the long summer months? While I do spend a fair amount of time watching them, I would love nothing more than to spend an entire summer watching one group of bucks interact, establish a dominance hierarchy among themselves, and learn new and undocumented behaviors; what a great summer job. A close friend and partner theorizes that during this time the younger bucks are learning from the older bucks how to be bucks. This might sound kind of silly, but there is likely some truth to this theory. Much like the males in the human population there is a great deal of learning and maturing gleaned from the younger bucks observing older males. They learn what to eat, where to water, where to hide, how to act, how to treat the ladies and generally just how to be a buck. Without a doubt, these types of learned behaviors are crucial and key to the survival of the species. So just what is a mature buck? How do we know they are there?
Some biologists may classify and tell you a mature buck is a 2 year old buck. This is mainly because this buck is sexually mature. All this really means is that its testicles have dropped and it can produce viable sperm. However, a buck really doesn't become 'mature' until he's somewhere around 5 years old. Not only are many physical characteristics of the buck fully developed, but the buck has had time to grow and mature and knows how to be a buck. The question now is, are we losing some of these important learned behaviors because we don't have the mature bucks we once had?

So what does all this mean?
The natural history of cervids dictates that the females will select and breed with the dominant mature male. Generally, this is determined by body and or antler size. This selection takes place during what we call 'the rut'. The rut of mule deer, in most western states, peaks around the third/forth week in November. Mating with a mature buck should ensure a strong/'fit' offspring and builds a healthy population. At least that is the theory. Unfortunately with the declines of deer in the west, there aren't too many places where you find 'mature' bucks doing the bulk of the breeding. Habitat fragmentation, highways, roads and urban sprawl have isolated and fragmented traditional winter ranges and breeding grounds. With these groups of does scattered hinder and yawn, it's next to impossible for one or two mature bucks to breed 30 does, let alone 100 or more. What is more typical in many of our herds is the two and three year old deer, or even yearlings, are doing the majority of the breeding. Are they capable of doing so? They are. The genes are still there, it can't be bad for the population, right? Well, it might be and here's why.

Could it all start with the Does?
A doe likely won't breed with a scrawny pencil neck buck during her first estrus cycle. However, if she is still 'fit' she will come into estrus again 3-4 weeks later. Now, she may just decide that pencil neck is better than nothing if Goliath is still absent. This really isn't helping our deer herds.
The gestation period of a doe is 200 days, give or take a week or so. Given that, let's do some math. I know it hurts but it's simple. Lets say doe 'A' is bred on November 18th, given a 200 day gestation, the fawn should hit the ground right around the 30th of May. Doe 'B' is bred on December 23rd (her second cycle) given the same gestation period, the fawn hits the ground on Independence Day. Does anyone see what is happening here? Fawns born in May/June are likely to weigh more, be more 'fit', and better to withstand predation and make it through a bad winter than those born in July/August. These fawns go into the winter being less 'fit', weighing less, making them more susceptible to disease, predation, and extremes in weather, which can lead to higher fawn mortality, less recruitment into the population and lower doe to fawn ratios. Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a fawn with its spots in late August/September? This really shouldn't be happening if all the does were bred in late November early December, but I see it with more and more frequency.

Could we be a part of the problem, does it start with us?
This is a tough question. It's a biological, social, and economic issue. What are we to do? For starters, we just can't continue to manage for quantity during these times of famine. Maximum sustained yield goes out the door with extremes in weather. One solution might be to manage for quality rather than quantity; another might be to simply reduce the number of tags sold and reduce harvest. Obviously this presents a few problems. Who is going to be the first to give up their tag for a year or three? I know in Utah it would be cut throat to give up a tag. Ask your state agencies how much money they can live without.
In summary, I don't think we can continue to allow our immature bucks to do most of the breeding. We need those mature males in the population. We need 'fit' healthy fawns to make it through the dry summers and the cold wet winters. We can't be harvesting 70-80% of our yearling bucks during these harsh times and expect things to recover over night or from year to year. We must manage for an even age distribution of bucks in the population through restrictions and reductions. It's important for us to realize this. We as hunters just can't continue to kill anything that has antlers and expect our mule deer population to increase. I'm not saying we all need to be trophy hunters either. But, just maybe we don't have to kill a deer every year to be a real hunter.
 
There is some truth to what you lined out, which is exactly why point restrictions (3 point or better) never worked. WHen all you do is kill the old breeding bucks then your scenario is what happens.

Does get bred later and fawn survival is less. So thank you for spelling out to people why 3 point or better is the WORST deer management option in the history of the world.

Now here are some stuff for you to digest. 50% of the buck harvest in this state is 1-2 year old bucks, the bucks we should be killing to keep the genes healthy for the very reason you so plainly spelled out above.

Why do we hunt spike elk so heavily in this state? For the same reason you stated above. Harvest the young bulls when they are young and immature and then the ones that grow old have great genes and are mature.

I hate to use other states as examples because Utah is not like any other state from a habitat, predation and population standpoint but here it goes.

Colorado kills the biggest most mature bucks its state has to offer and they kill them in the peak of the rut. The reason they are afforded to do that is because of there deer numbers mostly. They have enough bucks and deer to recruit deer into an older age class every year. The only place that is similar to Colorado habitat wise in Utah is the Book cliffs. That is why the deer herd as a whole rebounded so well there with a closure..... The habitat and water was incredible and so reproduction and survival was maximized.

Now lets take the Henry Mountains. They closed it as well, it has the WORST deer habitat of any limited entry deer unit in the state. It has a year around lion hunt, tough on predators, they bought all the grazing permits as well.It is an open bull unit on elk. In fact they want zero elk on the Henry NTN. And that deer herd in is poor shape.

So the answers to our problems I don't have, but I know the ONLY thing Utah has not looked at is the affect elk may have on deer. Isn't that worth looking into?





Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
Tony,
I don't believe I said anything about buck numbers. I said that smaller units allow us to use pin point accuracy to address what is hurting each unit. If it is hunters then yes cut tags. If it is something else then address that. To argue with that theory is crazy! More deer is what we want, not just bucks. All of you not supporting option 2 are too hung up the whole buck issue. Micro management is just that, actual specific management of each unit. The DWR says if we go to 29 units we will lose 7000 tags out the gate. That leads me to believe the DWR knows we are over hunting certain units right now. If that is the case it only supports the need to actually manage each unit. Or we could issue 200,000 tags and just say to hell with it, let's all go camp and wear orange that will help the deer herd for sure!


There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
"That is why the deer herd as a whole rebounded so well there with a closure..... The habitat and water was incredible and so reproduction and survival was maximized." Tony

They also got really aggressive with the predators on the Books.

Those that know me know that I love to hunt elk more than anybody but I would be willing to sacrifice some elk if it meant the deer numbers would rebound a little. I have not seen a proven study that tells me that will happen though so I'm not jumping on that wagon just yet. And . . . don't forget, the new state animal of Utah is . . . you guessed it, THE ELK! So don't plan on that happening too soon.

There is a fine balance and our illustrious biologists are getting paid to do that job. If they can't do it and produce, they need to be replaced with those that can. I'm tired of being lied to, fed sugar coated bullshi+, and told that our buck to doe ratio is at goal.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Right on AWLB!

Too bad there are alot of Panzy Asses that can't see what goes on in the real world!

A few years back I seen a real Doosey pulled by the DWR!
Across the South Slope they had it broke in to 4 sub-units!
The way they had it set up was if any of the sub units dropped below their objective(15 Bucks per 100 Does I believe it was?)the sub unit was to be closed,well a couple of sub units did drop below their objectives!

Anybody wanna Guess what they(DWR) did?

No they didn't close a damn thing!

The other 2 sub units were slightly above the objective(I'm talking 1 or 2 bucks above objectives)

So they throw all the numbers in to one pile & averaged the 4 sub units & left all of them open!

GOOD GAWD A MIGHTY!

That's how you fix a struggling few sub units ain't it?

JFP!



God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
Fellas

They are only recommending to cut buck tags because the wildlife board said they want 18 bucks per 100 does. Theay also said it was NOT a biological decision.

stop hunting all the bucks and it still wont fix the deer heards. Thats is a BIOLOGICAL FACT not an opinion.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
Tony,

Ya I understand your point. So what you are saying is the DWR will not use the micro managment to address deer numbers. It is not just buck doe ratio this plan can effect! Yet it will take actual effort to manage so you may be right. They would rather just sell al the tags in a statewide open unit. The board is only asking the division to do what they agreed to do last year!

I'll ask again Tony. You have been in a better position to fix the deer herd over the last 20 years than most of us. Why have you not implemented YOUR plan to save our deer herds. We have lost over half our deer herd in the last 25 years! We know your are the champion of a tag every year crowd, but this will not bring back our herds?

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
The DWR has already said, NONE of the three options will INCREASE the deer herd, INCLUDING #2! Good gawd some people are hard headed! The only thing any of these 3 options do is address the damn bucks, and does that through regulating HUNTERS, not the herd!
 
Never said that 16,000 people hit the front, just said they had the "option". You may be right about the number of people that actually hunt the front. It could be 2000(there are more if you ask me) or it could be 4000...who knows. My point wasn't how many go but how many have the OPPORTUNITY if they choose to go and hunt QUALITY deer.
 
To think that actually micro managing units is not hard headed, it is just plain stupid to think otherwise. I don't doubt that the DWR would not utilize this oppurtunity. The truth is to address all of the issues hurting our deer herd it needs to be looked at on a smaller level than the current region system...FACT! The second FACT is that most of the anti option 2 crowd are more concered about hunting every year and not the health of our deer herds. Our herds are shrinking and hunting oppurtunity should be taking a back seat for now. If we can get this done right it will increase opportunity for many years to come, but it may take some sacrifice in the beging.

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 

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