National Health Care

[eelgrass]

One of the big issues seperating Republicans and Democrats is the issue of National health care.

If you agree with the Democrats, tell us why. And if you don't agree tell us why.

Maybe we can come up with our own solution.

I work for a company that has a fairly good major medical plan. I contribute about $200 a month, and I'm happy doing that. I could lose my job, or will retire and will have to find something else. So it is a concern of ours.

Many good decent hard working people don't have insurance, and just flat can't afford it. Others could afford it but choose not to.

Health care just keeps rising for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which because of people receiving treatment who can't or won't pay.

I'm generally not a big fan of government but we live under it every day, and I do think they do lots of things right. Roads, building codes, law enforcement, etc.

Is there a solution? Could the Federal Government do this right?

Eel

 

[bobcatbess]

I'VE OFTEN WONDERED IF WE'D OF DONE THE FLY-OVERS WHAT KIND OF COVERAGE EACH & EVERYONE OF US MIGHTA COULDA HAD???

WE NEED INSURANCE BUT WHERES THE MONEY GONNA COME FROM NOW THAT WE'VE BLOWED WHAT WE HAD & BORROWED WHAT WE DIDN'T HAVE???





THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[B_F_E]

I'm for it.
I've flip flopped the last two years on the issues because of the staggering cost born by employers/employees.
Sad when indigents enjoy full coverage & if you got a job your paying for theirs, yet cant afford it yourself.

 

[257Tony]

I wish somebody would lower my premiums! I am 31, my wife is 30, I have 3 kids and we are all very, very healthy. We only go to the Doctor for scheduled kids checkups for the most part, with no history of any diseases, etc. I have to pay $650 a month for my little family, and that is with no maternity coverage. They want almost $1000 a month for that.

So essentially I pay $8000 a year for insurance, and if we want to have another kid I have to pay another $8000 out of pocket! Health Insurance is our 2nd biggest monthly bill behind our home mortgage. I don't want a system like Canada, but some relief would be nice...

 

[RELH]

We do need to find a working solution to the health care issue for the average working person. I do not think the system in place in Canada is the solution based on the very high taxes that workers have to pay to support it. also they have the issue of poor care or excessive time elements on non emergency care.
Yes, it is a crying shame that illegals and welfare can have their medical needs taken care of, but a low income wage earner is left to dry on the vine.

RELH

 

[eelgrass]

Bobcat, if we spent that money on national health care instead of Iraq, we would still be in debt either way. Maybe Iraq will end some day but health care goes on forever.

Eel

 

[bobcatbess]

ARE YOU SURE IT WILL END eel???

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[huntindude]

At last some rational thinking on this subject. another thing to think about is how much health care cost us in what we buy, GM figures about $1600 per car so do the math and everything we buy we pay a health insurance fee on. then add all the public employees and medicare, medicade, so the cost of health care is way more than just your premium. some experts say it will bankrupt American business and America in less time than we think if nothing is done.

So what's the answer? I really don't know but some sort of socialized medicine and drug program is my guess. those who can afford better will always be able to buy it but for everyone else there will be something in place. we're paying for those who can't pay anyway so it's time to come up with a plan that's more efficient.

 

[Forthewall]

As a business owner I would love to be able to provide my crew with best medical and dental coverage available. Unfortunately between paying a living wage, providing a safe work environment, and getting hammered with 23% workers compensation simply does not allow me the ability.

As an employer I have never had a workers compensation claim in 25 years of operation. Do I receive any discount on comp. rates...No. If I didn't have to pay such high comp. I could easily cover my crew with a great medical and dental plan.

As it is, I can only afford to cover my employees through Kaiser for major medical and leave dental optional. 257Tony I believe stated $650.00 a month and I believe that doesn't include dental.

A good start to Universal healthcare would be to over-haul the workers compensation system which is completely out of whack.

 

[d13r]

FTW,

Arnold said he fixed it.....lol

JB

 

[CAelknuts]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-08 AT 01:03AM (MST)[p]If the problem with medical coverage is the cost, how can anyone think that involving the government in providing a solution will lower the cost? Seriously. Here comes a whole new administration if we have universal health care, along with all the associated costs of said administration.

A significant part of the cost problem is associated with liability. If we can fix the liability issue, and have tort reform, we probably could see medical insurance become much more affordable. Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

More to add later.

 

[Anaconda]

I posted the following on another site. Of course I was instantly told how wrong I was.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I don't claim to be an expert, but it seems to me that a little political will power, the cost and availability of health care in America could be improved dramatically.
In some areas the expense of providing health care has driven many emergency facilities out of business. Most middle class people are staggering under the expense of premiums, co pays, and uncovered expenses.
I see three main problems that drive the cost through the roof, and stifle availability.

#1 Pharmaceutical company?s spend tens of millions of dollars developing new drugs and bringing them to market. Lots of them never make it to market, so when one does, they recoup their costs by charging ten times or more what it actually cost to manufacture.
Other countries with universal health care simply will not pay these prices. Motivated more by profit than humanitarian reasons, these company?s sell the drugs out of the country for a profit over manufacturing cost while letting Americans pay for the research and development A new drug that cost Americans $30 a pill can often be found in Canada for $2 a pill.
Basically, the American consumer is subsidizing prescription drugs in much of the rest of the world.

This needs to end now. Congress should pass a law that no company may sell, import or disperse any pharmaceutical product unless the wholesale price is the same worldwide. We can't control the price in Europe or Canada, but we can sure check on it and they are ripping us off (again) the fines will be in the tens of millions and CEOs will be put in jail. Oh the pharmaceutical company?s will howl, as will the Europeans and Canadians, but I think it's time the rest of the world paid their own way and the drug Co.s will not loose a penny once they start charging everyone a fair price.

#2 By law and medical ethic codes, an emergency care facility can not turn away someone in need because they can't pay for their care. The trouble is, close to 50% can't pay, so guess what ? The other 50% pay double, or more. The problem is exacerbated in South West border states where there is a high population of illegal aliens. I have seen emergency room waiting lines as long as six hours.
Obviously, some type of universal health care plan would help, but that still leaves citizens paying for aliens.
First, we need to FIX THE ILLEGAL ALIEN PROBLEM.

#3 Medical malpractice insurance drives up the price of any medical care by a tremendous amount. I don't know how much, but I'll bet close to 20% of any medical bill goes to the insurance carrier, maybe more.
The only way to reduce the cost of malpractice insurance is to reduce the lawsuits.
I still believe if some Doctor misdiagnoses your kid because he's late for his tee time, causing permanent damage he should pay. But not millions. It's not going to make you feel any better. How about covering the kids medical costs related to the mistake for life ? Make him go back through medical school from day one ? When your wife goes in for a boob job and they come out lope sided, stop crying, you don't need to sue.
TORT REFORM NOW.

 

[bobcatbess]

THE WHOLE THING WOULD TAKE SOME MAJOR FIXIN!!!

SO I SAY LETS GIT-R-DONE!!!

IS IT FAIR FOR PEOPLE LIKE FTW TO BE PAYING 23% TO WCF & NEVER HAD A CLAIM???

HELL NO IT AIN'T!!!

THERES ALWAYS SOMEBODY & I MEAN MANY SOMEBODIES WORKING THE SYSTEM!!!

WE HAVE SEVERAL AROUND HERE THAT HAVE IT MASTERED!!!

THEIR BACKS HURT SO BAD THEY CAN'T WORK!!!

BUT COME OCTOBER THEY MUST FEEL A HELL OF A LOT BETTER CUZZ YOU CAN FIND THEM ON THE MOUNTAIN HUNTING AWAY!!!

THEY JUST MUST BE SMARTER THAN ME!!!

I THINK ITS OVERDUE TO START CLAMPING DOWN ON THEM!!!


THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[easymoney]

Anaconda,
You posted a great one and it holds some of the answers that everyone needs to think about. And if you are being, "instantly told how wrong I was." you must be talking to a liberal or socialist forum that sees the answer to every problem we face with more social handouts and bigger government...
I'm self employed, married with one child and my Blue Cross coverage (which I've had for 30 years)is now $900 a month. $10,800 I pay annually BEFORE I make any claims or buy any medicine.
The most money I shell each year is for combined insurance costs and that's before I ever make any claims, which I never do because it just raises my rates even more.
Something needs to be done right now, but IMHO another social program is not the answer. Right now because of the existing social programs in place, my healthcare costs have already gone through the roof to provide for those who refuse or can not afford to pay their own way.
One of the choir...





Stop Global Whining

 

[huntindude]

You hit the nail on the head when you said your cost have gone through the roof due to those who can't pay, yet you say you don't want a hand out program, please explain that, you are paying a hand out right now so how do you figure? wouldn't it be cheaper to have government health care of some kind for these people with doctors paid public scale rather than putting it on our tab with doctors driving a Porsche and flying a Mooney? I don't resent the money doctors make I'm just looking for a better deal if I'm getting stuck with the bill.

Before you get on me for being a socialist explain how public schools and roads are any different. the government isn't the answer to everything but would you rather get the bill for private schooling for all those who coudn't afford it? same thing.

 

[eelgrass]

Well we sure have identified some of the major problems that we all face everyday. It seems like there is a lot we can and should do to fix those. And I don't see any of the current candidates addressing those issues except as lip service.

I tried to do a search on the Clinton and Obama plans. They seem to be almost identical, but they are both short on specifics. I tried to copy and paste the gist of Clintons plan. Forgive me for that. It seems more like a plan to insure that everyone has insurance rather than address care itself. I think that's a good thing. In theory I like the first paragraph. Please don't label me as a wacko Clinton lover. I just want to try and make some sense of all this and get some ides.


A Clinton adviser compares the plan's "individual mandate" -- which requires everyone to have health insurance -- to current rules in most states that require all drivers to purchase auto insurance, according to The Associated Press.

In her plan, Clinton said families would receive tax credits to help pay for coverage. The tax credit would be designed to limit the premiums to a percentage of a family's income.

Federal subsidies would be provided for those who are not able to afford insurance, and large businesses would be expected to provide or help pay for their employees' insurance.

Clinton said her plan would not require small businesses to take part, but will offer tax credits to encourage them to do so.

Under Clinton's plan, Americans would be offered the same health care benefits of private health care plans offered to Congress through the federal employee benefits program as well as a public program similar to Medicare.

Americans satisfied with their current coverage will be allowed to keep it, the Clinton campaign said.

To help pay for the plan, Clinton would also eliminate the Bush tax cuts for those making over $250,000 and limit the amount employers can exclude from taxes for health care benefits paid for those making over $250,000.

 

[Deadred7o7]

Hey T-grass or should I just call you a wacko Clinton lover. LMFAO


Kyle
"If it moves shoot it again"

 

[Forthewall]

Why don't you just marry Hillary Eel? You friggen whacko!

Eel I agree that Hillary does seem to have the most comprehensive plan of the 2 dem candidates. I think I could live with most of the temp tax cuts expiring with the exception of the marriage tax. I also feel strongly that the AMT either needs to be modernized or trashed. Apparently Exxon and Chevron are doing just fine and will survive without their recently awarded tax breaks.

On the surface it makes sense that premiums across the board would drop dramatically. This would provide an environment that would make workers comp. reform a much easier task.

My understanding is that outside of the basic structuring our medical care would stay the same. With the exception that insurance companies would no longer be able to cherry pick what is covered and what is not.

There is no excuse for our high infant mortality rate or seniors having to for-go basic conveniences like eating or heating their home, just to pay for their meds.

I hate to say it, but sometimes I think universal healthcare has been off the table in order to cull the herd while providing a vehicle for corporate profit.

That's pretty dark huh?

 

[gb22]

Whether premiums or taxes, having third-party payers and programs will NEVER reduce cost.

Your out-of-pocket will only rise with anything the government mandates.

Look at the history of this. You can pick our country or any other. Yes, I know all about the European democracies....do you know how many times how many of them have actually gone bankrupt..the entire country.

Do you know how truly "sucky" (very technical term) their medical delivery systems are (Yeah, lived there a while....very glad I'm HEALTHY.)

 

[Alchase]

A couple things to concider.
Dallas General Hospitol delivered 18250 babies in 2005. Of those 18250 babies 14630 were delivered to illegal aliens with no health care insurance. Just one hospitol!
I believe the National Health care cry we are hearing is only a political hot button to get a certain person elected. I do not mean to say something has to be done. Lets think about this for a moment.
Hillary claims to want to bring about a national health care plan. But please do not forget that she was also on the board of directors of Walmart at the time when they treated their employees so badly and refused to give them decent health care still don't. This puts such a drain on the individual states health care. Here is the catch. At the same time she is credited with coming up with Arkansas State Child Health Care Plan. While profitting from deniying employees health care?
Hillary also had two years to define a plan for National Health care

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan

Wiki ref
"The bill was a complex proposal running more than 1,000 pages, the core element of which was an enforced mandate for employers to provide health insurance coverage to all of their employees through competitive but closely-regulated health maintenance organizations (HMOs)"

This is coming from some one who proffitted for years at Walmart and could not even get enough of her own party votes for the plan they were proposing. Do you think there has been a change of heart here?

This was not meant to be a bash Hillary post, I was just using her as an example of the election promises that work great in sound bites and buy votes that really are never meant to be realized. It reminds me of the Miss America Pagents when all the contestents stand up and say "I just want world peace"

I do not have the solutions, but I know this, as long as we are paying for every illegal imagrant that crawls across the border there is no way we will ever have affordable health care.
And robbing the working class with taxes to pay for our own less fortunate does not work either. There is a word for that it is called Socialism.









As you can read here, the meetings were held in secret until they were sued to



There are only two types of people - The Hunters and the hunted,
I hunt.
Alchase

 

[bobcatbess]

SOUNDS GOOD!!!

BUT WHAT ELSE COMES IN THE PACKAGE???

THIS MIGHT BE THE SAME THING RUS HAS BEEN READING!!!

I'M NOT KNOCKING YOUR CHOICE!!!

BUT I AIN'T VOTING FOR HER!!!

SORRY eel & RUS!!!

OH BY THE WAY RUS???

DID YOU HEAR ABOUT HER WANTING TO BORROW ATHENA???

YA KNOW IF I BORROWED ATHENA I'D GIVE HER BACK TO YOU!!!

IF HILLARY BORROWS ATHENA.......................I DON'T THINK SHE'LL WANT TO GIVE HER BACK???

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[Forthewall]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-08 AT 01:13PM (MST)[p]Alchase LA general is not much different when it comes to delivering babies from illegals.

My analogy of the illegal issue is this: When you have a hole in your boat and you are taking on water, do you concentrate on bailing or plugging the hole first?

You mentioned Walmart's employee coverage policies which seem to parallel our current national policy. That is to say, our economy benefits from the low wages of illegals, yet ends up paying out in social and medical benefits.

Outside of Universal healthcare it appears that both the Dem candidates have a more feasible approach on the illegal issue than the GOP.

Not to bash Mitt, but this nice guy round-up so to speak is a pipe dream. When he mentions that we must deport illegals, "give them time to get their affairs in order, let their kids finish out the school year", seems unrealistic. Who is going to round-up our 12-18 million illegals? National Guard? Police? Army? What impact would that have on our economy and at what cost?

The Dems don't like to talk about the fact that NAFTA is the main reason why the influx of illegals have dramatically increased in the last 10 years. Manufacturing jobs have left Mexico to China, agricultural jobs have been replaced in Mexico by Guatemalan illegals.

I agree with the Dem candidates on the illegal issue, secure the borders, back-fines, mandatory English, and then entered into the system while waiting for permanent citizen status. This would not be a blanket amnesty policy of the 80's, but a comprehensive policy that is a win-win for all concerned with the least impact on our economy.

Once the borders are secure and the plan is in place. We should embrace George's plan and implement a guest workers program as hispanics establish citizenship and move away from the agricultural labor industry.

 

[ClorideRUS]

I've never been one to keep my thoughts to myself so here you go.

Have you ever noticed that when you have medical insurance and go to a doctor everything costs 2 or 3 times what it would if you were paying out of pocket? Doctors and hospitals gouge the insurance companies every chance they get. When you review your medical statements have you ever noticed that the doctor always bills way higher than the maximum the insurance will pay.

Why don't insurance companies set premiums based on how willing you are participate in preventative care? For example, I smoke. Why should my premium be the same as someone who chooses not to smoke? Why are premiums the same for people who are obese as those that choose to control their weight?

Why do illegal aliens get the same level of care as citizens? Why not establish ?free clinics? for those that choose not to have or cannot afford insurance?

Why not establish ?limits? on liability?

Why are tort lawyers the richest people on the planet?

Why do pharmaceutical companies get to patent drugs? Why not let all pharmaceutical companies compete in the market when a new drug is discovered?

Bottom line ? Universal Health Care is a moral responsibility in my opinion. However there are many things that can be fixed to make that an affordable solution.

Good post EEL ... it gets us all thinking?

RUS

 

[eelgrass]

Hillary wouldn't marry me. I don't smoke cigars.

To throw another problem into the mix. My dad is 84 and mom is 80. Dad suffers from Dementia/Alzheimers. They have good medical insurance from his railroad pension. Right after Christmas mom collapsed with a heart condition and ended up in the hospital. All of us kids gathered around to take care of dad, which is pretty much a 24/7 job. His Dr. saw that that wouldn't work for long so he placed him in a care home. Now the nursing home informs us it will cost $6400 a month to keep him there. $6400 a month???? He's in a room with 3 other guys and he doesn't eat but about 2 cups of food a day. WTF???? He could easily live another 10 years.

Now we are scrambling to figure out how to pay for it. We're talking to doctors, nursing homes, lawyers, VA, etc. Mom might have to sell their house and hope the money outlives them both.

This whole medical system is headed for a major disaster, especially as the baby boomers reach that age where medical problems mount. You all better get into the nursing home business.

 

[huntindude]

Good point eel, a guy just blew into town a few years ago and bought up half the land on the other end of the valley from me and built a ranch set up like nothing this county has ever seen including an indoor arena we'd all kill for. he has a fleet of planes including a personal 747 for international flights and even his kids live like royalty, what's he do? he owns a chain of nursing homes and health clinics. now we're all about free enterprise and capitolism and this guy isn't a crook or anything, he's taking advantage of our stupidity for not insisting on affordable care for our seniors like we insist on affordable education for our kids.

My father inlaw is in the state veterans home and while it's depressing to go there and see some of our best Americans in the last stop of their life I have to tell you the place is as good as a place of that nature could be. I don't know what the cost is most of it's picked up by the government but the staff and the facility are great. I've visited some for profit expensive nursing homes that were not much more than human kennels in my opinion, just pathetic. so while our veterans sevices had some problems that are getting worked out nobody can tell me the government can't do it right if they're being watched, the same could be done for non vets as well and cost may force it.

 

[NeMont]

RUS,

Do you have examples of going to the doctor with insurance and it costing 2 or 3 times what it costs if you didn't have insurance? Usually it is exactly the opposite. Insurers have set allowances that they will reimburse for and the providers usually contract for that amount. It is the private pay patient that will get billed the entire amount.

In addition in most states, for group insurance, insurance companies cannot single out smokers and other high risk individuals. Per HIPAA a company cannot consider pregnancy a preexisting condition. There are a ton of laws at the state and federal level that drive up the cost of health insurance. Those laws were demanded when insurance companies began to "disciminate" against smokers and the obese.

Name a country that has a socialized system where there is not rationing of health care. The Canadian's system is so overwhelmed at times that they send neonates to Montana for care.

I can agree some level of basic care should be available but if you think health care is expensive now, wait until it is free. There is not enough care out there to provide everyone the level of care they think they deserve.

Illegal aliens account for about a relatively small amount of the overal $2 TRILLION spent on health care in this country. While they should not recieve any free care IMO they are not causing the collapse of the American system.

If you want to know who is causing the problems with health care costs in this country then look in the mirror. Everyone wants there to be all that modern medicine can provide, from like new hips to stents in our arteries to MRI's to what ever but nobody wants to pick up the costs of this care.

It is easy to blame hospitals, docs, insurance companies and pharmacutical cos but what about some patient resposibility. Look at England if you smoked and are overweight and over 60 years old to bad for getting bypass surgery. Now how many Americans would sit and take a decision like that. What if it was your spouse or parent.

As for nursing home care that is an entire different ballgame that is not the same as health care for all.

Nemont