my ram rejected from SCI!

ridgetops · Apr 17, 2011

I found out a couple weeks ago that SCI records has refused to reconize my ram as a California Bighorn and reclassified it as a Rocky Mountain. I'm in the process of appealing the decision. I have sent them a couple e-mails with plenty of information from the Utah DWR but they have yet to respond back. I now have the phone # of the guy that turned it down, so I'll be giving him a call this week for hopefully better news. Has anyone else heard of this happening? I'll keep you posted.

Koby

Bullelk1 · Apr 17, 2011

Why not just enter it into B&C? The SCI scoring system leaves a lot to be desired, in my opinion.

ridgetops · Apr 17, 2011

B&C does not recognize the California as a separate species from the Rockies. For that reason my RAM won't make the books as a Rocky but would be ranked #12 in the world in SCI as a California Bighorn.

mntman · Apr 17, 2011

LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-11 AT 12:40PM (MST)[p]I have no idea one way or the other but did you happen to shoot it on the wrong side of the road? I know they generally just use man made boundarys or a natural line that is easy to identify as the decision line for these slight variance in sub-species...
Bummer though if you cannot get it recognized as a California, best of luck.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"

ridgetops · Apr 17, 2011

Utah does not seperate the California and Rockies into seperate draws, like some of the other states do. If you want to hunt one of the California Bighorn units, you need to use up your Rocky points. Also, Utah does not have any sort of specific state records that is kept. So right now, SCI is the only way to get a California Bighorn reconized. Unless one will score over 180" which may never happen in Utah.

wymoosehunter · Apr 17, 2011

Pictures and a story? How big, etc.?

greatwestern · Apr 17, 2011

LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-11 AT 09:03PM (MST)[p]Hey RT, on what grounds did they refuse recognition of your Darkhorns as a California? Genetic testing? To be honest, I thought that dude WAS a Rocky, as I have no idea where you were hunting (or which units in Utah hold california populations, for that matter), and your ram sure does look like a rocky to me anyway

Forgive my ignorance as to where the separate population boundary designations are in UT, but could it be possible that the ram wandered into that area from somewhere else? Are there Rockies in a range reasonably close to there? Some bighorn rams have been known to disperse quite considerable distances in certain instances. I personally know of one Rocky ram that randomly showed up on a Desert range, and could only have come from either one of two populations averaging over 60 miles away. I also know of a collared ewe that was part of a transplant to augment a new population and decided she didn't much care for her new digs after all, and so walked the 30+ miles home, much of which was through heavy timber. Two other translocated collared ewes were killed by lions making this same journey.

Its something to consider anyway, but certainly don't let any lack of eligibility for such and so 'Book' diminish the quality of your fine trophy for you, as I'm sure you won't.

Cheers

ridgetops · Apr 17, 2011

LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-11 AT 10:17PM (MST)[p]greatwestern, you have some good points. I don't know why they changed it, they won't respond to my e-mails. My ram is a transplant from Antelope Island, which are California Bighorns. My ram was collared and had ear tags. Which will prove where it came from. The dark horns are probably from the two big fires that were out there in the last five years, he probably was rubbing his horns in the ash and burnt brush.

wymoosehunter, you can find my story in the 2010 "Hunt Adventure Challenge"

Here's a new picture of my ram with his hardware.

greatwestern · Apr 17, 2011

LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-11 AT 11:36PM (MST)[p]Ah shoot man, totally forgot that he was wearin the collar. Nah, it wasn't the darkhorns that I figured would indicate him as possibly being other than a california by appearance...I was lookin at his body size and very dark chocolate cape, but most notably his Rocky lookin ears

I'd give em some more time to communicate their reasoning for the rejection. Do you know if there is any history of possible Rocky "genetic pollution" in the stock used to establish the Island herd? Or hell, maybe collars and tags are adverse to their 'exclusive admission criteria'?

Sounds kinda fishy to me, but I'd keep the pressure on em if its something you feel is worthwhile to you...I'd personally just tell em to stuff it! Never much cared for the SCI clique anyway

That dude is a fine ram, and I am glad to have been given the opportunity to see him in the photos and excellent video you provided

So Thanks, and Good Luck man!

**edit---hey, you might post up the link to your video here as well for those who haven't seen it yet...great stuff! I will always remember the footage of the group dropping the crags after the shot, and the one young dude getting hammered off the intermediate landing by the following ram...Get the hell outta the way boy, comin' through!!

PleaseDear · Apr 17, 2011

SCI is the only record/scoring option that seperates Rocky's from Cali's.

I couldn't understand why it was being stated as the New Utah state record when we have 190 + ram as the state record...

Then I saw it had been slipped over to SCI for the state record title.

Still kinda confusing.

Hope it all works out for ya.

Robb

TOPGUN · Apr 18, 2011

Here's the link to the great video of ridgetops taking his ram!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bHOszVXXcik

440sixpack · Apr 18, 2011

I wouldn't lose much sleep over anything SCI has to say or if you get an award from them.

littlebighorn · Apr 18, 2011

Coby,
SCI must have their head in the clouds. Send them a copy of the Utah State Sheep Management Plan. It specifically lists the Stansbury Sheep, Newfoundland, and Pilot Mt. Herds as California Sheep. They all came form the Anelope Island sheep which originated from the Kamloops herd in British Columbia, and Nevada sheep for some of their California herds.
And while Greatwestern has a point that sheep can travel a long way, that sheep clearly had it's origins from Anelope Island, which is as isolated as any California herd in the world.
I suspect that whoever turned it down, took a look at those dark horns and said "no way" can that be a Cali ram. But the collar is very significant evidence of it's family tree.
Good luck on your fight for recognizing your ram. He is indeed the most special ram I have ever been a part of, and they can never take away the great experience you had in harvesting that monster. It is a fight worth fighting and I think if you really want to get it done, contact some of the Utah FNAWS people like Ryan Foutz, or Don Peay to drop those guys a line about your sheep. I know I am willing to do anything I can. I witnessed the whole thing and I think my son's video is pretty solid evidence of where it came from.
Good Luck
Rick

greatwestern · Apr 18, 2011

Just watched video again off T-Guns link, and it is that collared ewe that gets bumped...yes indeed, it appears as though chivalry IS dead!

Ya LBH, I obviously know nothing about Utah sheep, but if the herd's history and origins are how you describe, I don't think them SCI fellas got much ground to stand on with their decision to reject Darkhorns. But like I said, the organization has always impressed me as being rather cliquish, and I'd just tell em to...well, nevermind

Anyway, I enjoyed seeing that great footage again, and hope it all works out to RT's best interests

Cheers

bighornbob · Apr 18, 2011

First off great looking ram. I would not worry too much about the SCI record book and it looks like one person made the call to call it a rocky.

As a person who hunts Rockies and Cali's everyyear there is no real way to tell the difference between the two. Someone mentioned the sheep looked like it had Rocky ears and I would like to know what the difference is between the two species.

I have seen dark horned rams of both species and dark colored capes on both. Usually a dark colored ram will be a older ram, but I bet if you put two 10 year olds side by side, they would probably be the same color.

Here in BC our record book has a Category for Cali's and it depends on where you killed your ram if its a Cali or a Rocky. The bios know they mix in the common areas but the use a boundary like B&C does.

There are a lot of heads in the British Columbia record book that are not even listed in the SCI book (like I said up here many do not even know about it). A new BC record was shot a few years ago (I know there were pictures on here) and I beleive it went like 195.

Once again great ram.

BHB

Lien2 · Apr 18, 2011

Congrats on your ram! But..........WHY let some organization, score, piece of paper, etc. tarnish this experience?! That is a trophy no matter where your name sits or doesn't sit in some book, enjoy it!
Congrats again, you are a lucky man!

Lien2

greatwestern · Apr 18, 2011

Ya Bighorn Bob, it sounds like you'd be the expert...I always have had the impression that californias had slightly longer and more pointed ears than rockies short and rounded ears. RT's ram also appears to have a horse of a body for a southern dwelling Cal sheep.

I have never seen such a dark chocolate colored California either, they generally have more of a 'buff' color, including old rams...shoot, the majority of the mature rams I've seen have been of the greyish variety, whether Rockies, Deserts, or Calis...the dark chocolate color is certainly more rare in my experience, but that doesn't include any time in BC

Differing horn color can be found in any subspecies as well, and I would certainly never use it as an idicator, though certain areas have tendencies to produce rams with horns of a specific color and conformation

Anyway, I definitely agree about not putting too much importance into what SCI says about it, thats sure

Bullelk1 · Apr 18, 2011

Great ram! I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep about the rule book on that one.

ridgetops · Jun 12, 2011

RE: my ram rejected from SCI! - UPDATE

LAST EDITED ON Jun-12-11 AT 10:22AM (MST)[p]I finally got things straighten out with SCI and they have re-classed my ram back to a California Bighorn. In hindsite, I may not even have had him entered but I'm gad he's reconized for what he is. Hopefully this will help anyone else that wants to enter there Cali ram from one of these units with the same genetics. I should be getting back the mount this summer, just trying to find the best/less expensive way to get it back down to Utah from Montana. I still can't believe I connected on a 170+ Cali ram. Still on cloud nine.

ishootaRUM300 · Jun 12, 2011

RE: my ram rejected from SCI! - UPDATE

Congrats on getting into the books.

littlebighorn · Jun 12, 2011

RE: my ram rejected from SCI! - UPDATE

Koby,
That is very good news. It seemed like someone wanted to discriminate against the Utah Cali herd, so hopefully that will straighten out Dave's sheep listing as well.
So are you actually submitting it or not? If it is about the cost, drop me a PM and I will help you out! I would definitely have him listed!
Congrats again on a great ram.

ridgetops · Jun 12, 2011

RE: my ram rejected from SCI! - UPDATE

Rick, he's listed now. I think with the new entries this year, he's going to be ranked 16th all time. SCI said, right now it's being reconized as a pending top 20 ram. I guess it was re classed a week after I sent them the e-mail with all the Utah DWR info. They just didn't respond back to me. I think one guy thought the other was going to get back with me. Thanks for your help.