My Deer Proposal (just ideas)

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

I think we get focused on one thing on the internet and it's hard to discuss something and not sound so one sided. Buck to doe ratio should be thrown out the window. That should not even be a concern at this point. Once deer are at objective (NO, I don't believe the DWR numbers!!) then you can worry about buck to doe ratios. In a nutshell here is what I propose,

1. Smaller units with actual management in each individual unit. None of this, managing the same in the Southern units the same as the Northern. It will spread the pressure out. You don't even need to reduce the tags necessarily. Just spread them out. Utilize those 2nd, 3rd and 4th choices on the application process that have been useless up to this point. If you need to raise the license fees then raise them.

2. Continue on the conservation pushes for improved habitat on winter ranges. Have contingency plans for harsh winters in place to minimize what we can. Forget the Henry Mountains right now and focus on the much needed areas that hard barely surviving right now. The Henries will be a thing of the past in a few years with their management practices down there now.

3. Predator control. MDF, SFW, RMEF, etc sponsored coyote contests. Increase bounties. Have dedicated hunter coyote hunts where you have to show up and check in and check out. Give a certain number of hours per so many coyotes killed. Increase cat and bear tags. I have 7 points for these 2 animals and still can't get a tag. I see bear all the time and I have seen a lot of cougar sign this year so far.

4. Seasonal road closures to foot and horse traffic only. I mean, lets get serious about this one. Close them 1 week before the archery season opens and open them up after the late season ends. If it is NOT A MAJOR TRANSPORTATION ROUT close the roads! Increase fines exponentially so people think twice before driving somewhere they shouldn't be.

5. Close winter ranges off completely. We've already got shed hunt dates now just enforce them and allow the deer to winter unmolested.

If we are truly serious about improving our deer herds then you can't just dabble at this point. Every issue has to be addressed and any proposal that doesn't should be revised until it does. Fixing 1 or 2 of the issues does nothing. It is the proverbial "pissing in the wind". What we have right now is a LAZY big game board and a LAZY self serving RAC! They are as worthless as "##### on a boar"! These guys need to feel some pressure and we as sportsman need to figure out a way to make them accountable. Just my 2 cents. I'm sure I left something out. This surely doesn't encompass everything but it's a far more complete proposal than Option's 1,2 and 3.



It's always an adventure!!!

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

I agree with AWLB!

I also think we need to do more Fences/Underpasses for Big Game throughout Utahs Roadways,I travel the Road from Duchesne in to SLC on an average of once a week & I'm telling you Guys & Gals it's unbelievable how many animals get slaughtered on that stretch alone every year!

I know it will take money & time but damn something needs to be done!

Gonna add another one to BULLS Plan!

Abso-f'n-lutely no more Doe Slaughters in this state,if you need help transplanting them let's get some Sportsmen together & lets move them!

This one will piss some of the Stick Flippers off:It's gonna have nubs or you're not shootin it,Doe killing is comming to an end!

Is it necessary to have 6 months of NON-STOP & OVERLAPPED hunting in Utah with pressure on all the Game Herd clear in to January with FRICKEN Cow Slaughters?

I could keep going but I'm gonna give somebody else a turn!

is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[walleye1121]

This makes to much sense to even be an option.

I am all for it though.

 

[dwalton]

Closing the winter ranges in EVERY western state would be a great thing!

 

[325wsm]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-10 AT 06:14PM (MST)[p]I agree 100%, maybe we need to get rid of the Rac completely or at least vote some guys like awholelottabull onto it, and get rid of the dead weight that we have in there now.

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

No we ain't voting AWLB on to the RAC!

We are gonna replace Anis with AWLB!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

Think that'll enhance my Draw Odds for 2011?

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[justr_86]

I like your plan, add on bess's highway crossing and no more big game hunts antlered or antlerless after oct 31. At that point every season will be done on general and LE units. Let them keep the fat they have gained through the summer for the rut and winter!

They already run cow hunts during bull and buck seasons, no need to have anything that late!

 

[slamdunk]

Fire Anis and appoint Pro, he'll straighten 'er out!!

http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/slamdunk_04/E1x1BWINV1-2.jpg[/IMG]

 

[bowhunt]

AWB,

You are spot on!

The current proposals are a joke! They do not address the issues.

It is going to take more than cutting a few tags, we have got to get serious about it and make some real change.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Well thanks guys for the vote of confidence but I don't profess to being able to do that job I just know the guys that are in there now don't have the deer herds best interest in mind. If they did, there would have been changes long before now!


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[stillhunterman]

I think you folks are pointing fingers at the wrong people. It is the WB that makes the decisions, not the DWR or Anis. And guess who runs the WB???

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

You're right Still. It's the wildlife board and the RAC that have the final decision. They may have outside influences but it's just like you state elected officials. They need to grow a pair and make the right decision based on the health of the herds. And please don't make Anis Aude out to be an innocent bystander. While I know his hands are tied on some things he will tell the public what they want to hear while knowing full well it's not going to happen. They have these RAC meetings only because they feel they have to. The decisions already made before they even turn the lights on at these facilities. If someone can name a positive result from our recent RAC meetings (10 years) that benefit the overall health of our deer herds please do. Good luck on that one.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[PleaseDear]

I agree with ya Jim.

Granted I pretty much got out of this whole 'Budwieser Biologist' gig-------BUT------- we try and hunt here in our state and I am tired of my Utah earned money going out of state year in---year out.

Question.........

Why seperate LE buck units from the 29--or smaller units and have this dumb 2 point system (Preference points Gen tags/Bonus Points LE tags)

Have 1 draw ALL deer units included---all 5 choices count and if ya draw any of the 5 you use your points.....simply combine the 2 point systems to 1 point pool.

Move hunters into the hunt and out of the point pool type deal.

Robb

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

I agree Rob! I would say put every deer unit in the same pool. If you want to hunt a 200 inch buck then put your first choice down for the Henries and then the Book Cliffs as your second choice and then (unit 18?) on the Wasatch as 3rd choice and so on. You shouldn't be able to apply for a Henries tag and then be in a separate draw for the other not-so-sougth after units. Get rid of the "premium" status and charge one fee for a draw tag across the board.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

Man I'm liking this,the more I read the more I like!

And PUNK!
That wasn't very funny!
I heard your buddy Pro on KSL yesterday morning while I was in SLC,sounds like He's taken up Pheasant Hunting?
Pheasant hunting is like Deer Hunting in the Basin,You 'might' get one!

You know Guys!
It would take just a few short years to improve Utah's Deer herd,I say lets GET-R-DONE rather than doing the same ole BS,we can't take much more of the same old BS or we ain't gonna have JACK left!

I had to laugh a while back,was talking to a Guy I know & he claimed the reason for the Deer herd in Utah that flourished in Utah was the Nuclear Bomb testing with the fallout radiation,he claimed thats why all the big horns & freak racks,well maybe it's time we set a couple more off!

As I've posted many times!
I'm for whatever changes we need & we need some serious changes,do whatever it takes to turn this Deer herd around,I like to hunt as much as anybody,but it's easy to see if We keep going in the same direction we've been going we can kiss her goodbye!

What I still laugh at is:
Every year I hear Deer Hunters say:Well I shot this little Buck because I need the Meat!
Anybody ever add up what a PISSCUTTER or any other Buck will cost you per pound when it's all said & done?
Let's see?
5 days off work!
Gas money!
Grocery Money
Wear & Tear!
List goes on & on!
But by GAWD I got my my Dink Buck & now my Family is gonna survive the Winter now I've put Meat in the Freezer!

Just sayin.........................

Be nice if some of them Milk on the Lipp Bucks could make it but in TARDVILLE most of them don't because we feel the need for the Braggin rights:"Yup I filled my Tag this year"!


God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[Founder]

I'm definitely a fan of seasonal road closures. That would help quality a lot.
I personally don't think our deer herd here in Utah can be much larger. Between many more elk, LOTS more people in the woods, development, etc., I think we have about as many deer as this state can support, so I believe we need to now make due with what we have and make it the best we can.
There's a lot that can be done without drastic tag cuts.

I think if they maintain the current 5 day hunts for 4-5 years, quality will be awesome. If they also combined that with some seasonal road closuers and very small tag cuts, it would be nice..........................BUT, people would still complain if they didn't see a big buck on their hunt.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

 

[Deerlove]

Heres a good one have ALL Dedicated hunter hour actually help the deer herd. Hwy fencing, planting etc, no more stamp licking and fish counting.

 

[justr_86]

People will complain if they don't get to see 10 big bucks from the truck. Then complain when they can't hunt every year.

 

[stillhunterman]

>I'm definitely a fan of seasonal
>road closures. That would help
>quality a lot.
>I personally don't think our deer
>herd here in Utah can
>be much larger. Between many
>more elk, LOTS more people
>in the woods, development, etc.,
>I think we have about
>as many deer as this
>state can support, so I
>believe we need to now
>make due with what we
>have and make it the
>best we can.
>There's a lot that can be
>done without drastic tag cuts.
>
>
>I think if they maintain the
>current 5 day hunts for
>4-5 years, quality will be
>awesome. If they also combined
>that with some seasonal road
>closuers and very small tag
>cuts, it would be nice..........................BUT,
>people would still complain if
>they didn't see a big
>buck on their hunt.
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com


I think you are right on there Founder. I believe the mule deer herd here in Utah was artificially inflated for years (decades) during the Hey Days. I think it is pretty dang close to capacity right now. I think it was LULU who said we should stop the focus on the Henry's and move that to other areas where the herd can benefit, good advice. That is about the only way to increase the size of the herd by much, improve the habitat (specifically winter range).

We've become an Instant Gratification society, and hunters/hunting is no different. I believe many of us have lost our roots of the Hunt, and like you said, will complain if we don't see many mature animals from the roads or near by.

Today's Big Game Management strategies are highly politically influenced, like most other things, and it is extremely complicated and multi-faceted with many groups other than hunters that need to be kept in mind. That being said, I think we are at a precipice for hunting here in Utah. For the first time in a long time, the Hunter's voice is being heard, and we are showing up. That needs to continue big time at the WB meeting! Unless they witness our displeasure with the way things are being run in a dramatic way, I believe they (WB)will continue down the current political avenue, being led by the "inch" influence that has a stranglehold on our deer and elk herds.

Two WB member positions will come available next year. We need to let the Governor know how we feel and interject those feelings with vigor and assertiveness..

 

[ktg]

Those all seem like good ideas that I would support. I remember several years ago making the suggestion in a thread like this one that we should combine all the draws and have one point pool. I was about run off the forum. Maybe people's ideas are changing.

 

[mevertsen]

Just one note from an outsider's point of view. The OP, and a few others mentioned closing the winter range completely. In another sentance, they said increase lion tags!

Ummm....

Last I checked lions eat deer, and lions follow deer, so now you want to close off the lion hunters from the deer in the winter, which means no lions getting killed.

Just an observation, and I also feel that killing lions will not have as big of an impact as people believe it will.

Later,

Marcial

 

[buglinbilly]

Without reducing hunter numbers drastically, it will be tough to change things in a positive way from my view point, unless we do things that have not been done before. Yesterdays ideas have proven they are not sufficient to solve today's deer problems.

Before every climbs all over me, just let me say I grew up during the good ole days of mule deer hunting (1955-1975). Things have changed drastically, since then and although it would be great to return the herd to those levels, that is not possible in these days, for multitude of reasons.

When I grew up I learned to hunt with my uncles 32 special. There were no scopes (only open sights) and no shooting sticks. In those days a long shot was 100 yards. As time passed I got me a 270 with a scope and although I was never really a good shot like most of you, it sure made killing a nice buck much easier. As time past, I missed the part of hunting that required one to get close ( I understand there are different camps in this thinking) to game I hunted and in the early 70?s chose to hunt with just my bow.

But I truly believe, that if we are going to resolve our mule deer crisis, we have to take pressure (killing) off our herds and especially our bucks. I think we have a lot of great minds, that can come up with some great ideas, that if implemented, would do far more good,than what is presently being done.

I would suggest that some of the regions or units go to primitive weapon hunting. And I don't just mean with archery equipment. How about a rifle unit that is limited to 30/30?s or rifles that fall into that general category (open sites)? A person hunting that unit could use no shooting sticks or no scopes. I think it could offer more tags, longer season and yet many of bigger bucks would escape to live a year longer. In a few years I think you would find, that units buck to doe ratio much better, and I truly believe the buck?s age class would rise significantly. I think within several years, the unit would become s much sought after hunt.

In any light, we all need to think out side of the box and quit trying to fix the problem with yesterday?s old ideas that have proven they just don't work.

Have a good one. BB

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

I agree!

Make the Stick Flippers retire their gear they are presently packin & use 45 lb(Max) Recurves!

Make Rifle hunters use nothing bigger than an open sited 30-30!

Make all Muzz hunters go back to their Hawkens/Traditional/Flintlocks!

Watch me get jumped on this!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[Castnshoot]

Ideas 1,2,& 3 are good.

As for 4 and 5.

Be carefully about restricting access to public lands for what ever reason. Those types of rules could too easily be used against us when the voting base swings the wrong way. Besides there are alot of other reasons to be on these lands other than hunting.

 

[SMELLYBUCK]

1. Smaller units with actual management in each individual unit.

How much more do you think it will cost to "actually manage." They hardly manage the 5 they have right now.

2. Continue on the conservation pushes for improved habitat on winter ranges.

good

3. Predator control. MDF, SFW, RMEF, etc sponsored coyote contests. Increase cat and bear tags.

It would be interesting if a couple of mountain ranges had unlimited over-the-counter tags. Preditor control is the only management tool the state has largely neglected.

4. Seasonal road closures to foot and horse traffic only.

Great in theory but politically unrealistic. Getting federal roads closed for state hunts would be a mess. I love walking though. I hunted one of the few places that are truly walk in last month. In a 24 hour period, I saw fewer than 12 hunters and 3 heavy bucks taken. I know at least one other was shot, but I didn't see the size of others.

5. Close winter ranges off completely. We've already got shed hunt dates now just enforce them and allow the deer to winter unmolested.

Yes

Although these are great ideas in theory, I'm pretty skeptical. I used to think party hunting and muzzleloader rut hunters were the reason I didn't tag much. In 17 years we've cut tags, increased prices, shortened seasons, taken the hunt out of the rut, stopped either sex on archery, 1 to 5 units, increased deer fencing on I15, increased winter habitat, and gone to choose your hunt.

Has any of this paid off? Do you think the hunt would be much worse if we would have stuck with a state wide hunt with unlimited tags?

One other big thing is fawns aren't making it. In theory our herd could double in two years. Killing 25,000 bucks a year should be very sustainable if we have 300,000 deer.

We'll see the state split up more next year. I doubt it will change things any more than all the other restricitons that have miraculously done nothing.


sour grapes

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

Again,kinda funny!

Colorado has several Roads that close on a certain date!

Just so you boys know!

We already have some Winter grounds closed to traffic!
Just so you know,Lions are being hunted in these areas,Lion hunters take turns by getting a key from the DWR & they take turns with the access/key!
One other thing you boys should know that don't know is the Coyotes in this state are the major predator problem with our deer herd!

The USFS can't even enforce the Laws they already have in place so while we are making changes let's set a couple of places aside for Quad Queers to Hash & Thrash & close the others completely to ATV's!

That ought to be enough to get somebody BAWLING!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[ktg]

>Just an observation, and I also feel that killing lions will
>not have as big of an impact as people believe it will.

I recall in another thread someone posted that the DWR claims a population of about 2500 lions in Utah. At 1 deer per week, per lion, you do the math.... I'd like to see the population at about 1/2 that. Again, an idea that will never happen.

As for coyotes, I have no clue how many deer they kill but it certainly won't hurt to kill 99% of them.

So how do we kill all these predators? The last effective way was poison. That was back when we had so many deer. I don't think that will happen again.

More cost effective habitat = chaining. That probably won't happen either.

 

[mevertsen]

>>Just an observation, and I also feel that killing lions will
>>not have as big of an impact as people believe it will.
>
>I recall in another thread someone
>posted that the DWR claims
>a population of about 2500
>lions in Utah. At
>1 deer per week, per
>lion, you do the math....
> I'd like to see
>the population at about 1/2
>that. Again, an idea
>that will never happen.
>
>As for coyotes, I have no
>clue how many deer they
>kill but it certainly won't
>hurt to kill 99% of
>them.
>
>So how do we kill all
>these predators? The last
>effective way was poison.
>That was back when we
>had so many deer.
>I don't think that will
>happen again.
>
>More cost effective habitat = chaining.
> That probably won't happen
>either.



And somehow people believe that 2500 number, but don't believe the 300,000 deer number...

Yet they come from the same source, and its darn near impossible to count lions.

They figure we have that many lions here in NV as well, and only 110,000 deer, so it just doesn't add up.

Later,

Marcial

 

[elkantlers]

I want to throw in my .02.

I agree something needs to be done to help our deer herds, but I don't agree with seasonal road closures in the fall. There are many people that enjoy going for rides (ATV or Truck) in the fall. It is the best time of the year for this type of activity. The weather starts to cool off, the leaves are starting to chang and usually you can see some animals out and about. It is not right to eliminate some people( elderly, handicapped, lazy) just so that others can see a few less hunters.

I have done back country hunts where it takes a good part of the day just to get to where you are going to camp. I also like to hop on the ATV and ride to the top of a canyon and then hunt from there. I think there are plenty of places where both types of hunting can take place with out closing off areas.

I would rather see more predator control. Namely a war on coyotes. We are underutilizing our trapper friends. We are more than willing to put the hurt on coyotes but we can't do it with the current laws. The trap check laws are so restrictive that there is no incentive for trappers to target coyotes. Also the DWR needs to loosen up on the bait laws. In the good old days a chunk of jackrabbit could catch any coyote that came by. Now it is illegal to use. If we get these laws changed and add a bounty you could see the number of coyotes caught by trappers explode.

I also think the draw needs to be tweeked. I think there ought to be a Deer Draw. Not a limited entry and then a general season. If you put in for a the henries as a first choice, you will be behind all the people that put in for SE deer tag as their first choice.

I do like giving the youth some extra perks. I think all youth should be able to hunt all three seasons and I do like the idea that we give the youth a second weekend on the rifle hunt. It is hard to get kids out to hunt with only 5 days.

 

[southslope82]

I have a few Questions first off
1. Is the final decision going to be actually voted on or is it what ever the DWR wants?

2. I have read on the DWR website and I feel that they are more concerned about B/Doe ratio rather than over all deer #'s is this the case? -"yeah I think I know the answer" Lol just want to hear what you all really think.

3. At the RAC do we get to share our Opinions on what we would like to see happen or are we basically only able to discuss the options they have presented?

4. In the end is the final answer one of the 3 proposed plans they already have?

5. This is mostly for the "NE" part of the state but does anyone know if the DWR takes into account what the Ute tribe does as far permit #'s before they get the tags handed out?


I myself would like to see no more doe killing period. deperdation or regular hunts. - I have my reasons but I'll save my breath- for later.
I really like the idea of raising the coyote bounty.
The Lions though I feel are in the same boat the deer are in acrossed a huge part of the state I have hounds for myself and have alot of houndsmen friends that know this not think "know" this for a fact, nothing pisses me off worse about this whole deer solution shizz than seeing people come on here squaking about the lions when they have never tried even simply finding a track let alone go and actually get involved in it. So don't assume if you don't really know.
I am kinda undecided about the primitive weapons, The muzzle loader hunt is were I think something could be done I shoot a TC Omega so I am as guilty as the next but the difference between a new inline shooting 200 plus and trust me they shoot just fine even farther, Versus an old flint lock is a huge difference. I definetley don't like the idea of a bunch of idiots only packing around recurves though or even a 45 pound bow period- Holy crap and people think that there are alot of wounded deer now. Our deer would look like porcipines with all the flippin dips around.
I think a huge difference could be seen if they simply cut tags and cut alot of the tags these number that the dwr has come up with are not near enough in my opinion I was thinking like a good starting point would be cut the tags by half. Thats just looking at it from my neck of the woods I don't know about the rest of the state. It will definetley be interesting!!!

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

Well Sloper!

I've been to several Units in Utah this Fall and the Deer Herd Sucks just about everywhere!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[southslope82]

I have no doubt the whole state is in a world of hurt as far as the general units go. I just didn't want to speak for someone else.

 

[stillhunterman]

I have a few Questions first off
1. Is the final decision going to be actually voted on or is it what ever the DWR wants?

Decisions for the management of the Utah deer herd are NOT made by the DWR, they are made by the Wildlife Board: And yes, it is what the WB wants, relative to what chains SFW pulls to lead them.

2. I have read on the DWR website and I feel that they are more concerned about B/Doe ratio rather than over all deer #'s is this the case? -"yeah I think I know the answer" Lol just want to hear what you all really think.

The DWR is concerned about the health of the deer herd, but in all reality is relegated to the wishes, once again, of the Wildlife Board. They are more concerned with the number of bucks, not the health of the herd.

3. At the RAC do we get to share our Opinions on what we would like to see happen or are we basically only able to discuss the options they have presented?

Yes, you can share you thoughts at the RAC's, and present whatever options you may think they will consider. But bare in mind, the RAC's only serve one purpose, and that is to submit ideas and public input to the WB. They have NO POWER to implement ANY deer management plans.

4. In the end is the final answer one of the 3 proposed plans they already have?

In the end, the final answer is whatever the WB decides, along with the hard core nudging of SFW.

5. This is mostly for the "NE" part of the state but does anyone know if the DWR takes into account what the Ute tribe does as far permit #'s before they get the tags handed out?

That I don't know.

 

[southslope82]

Thanks stillhunterman... I didn't really understand how big a part the WB has. I was under the impression that they simply sifted through the publics ideas and opinions and presented it to the DWR and thats all. Don't get me wrong I'll be at my RAC I just feel like a ton of others on here and think that my time and opinion which is also basically the same as others is totally a waste of effort. But I guess I want to reserve my right to complain if they make it worse than it already is or keep it pretty much the same. So I will be there.

Another question- I guess I should know this but I don't-
Will someone shed a little light and tell me why is it the SFW have such a impact on things like this??? I mean there are a ton of wildlife groups that could do the same why SFW and not a different one?? Or one at all??? I am guessing some how in the end it boils down to money am I right?

 

[CATMAN]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yup Your Right