Mule Deer Crisis in Western Wyoming

Founder might find the quote below of interest:

?another major impact is the unregulated scouting of trophy animals and selling their GPS coordinates. These scouting services are not under a Forest Service permit or Wyoming outfitter?s license. This service adds a huge additional pressure to the finite number of mature trophy bucks in Western Wyoming. The mule deer numbers are shrinking fast!?

It's seems to be ?major? and ?huge? to some folks.
 
Yes, I've vented in both his Facebook post plus in the thread in the Mule Deer Forum here at MonsterMuleys.com.

My scouting and sharing my knowledge has resulted in 2 top end bucks being shot, and it makes the list of "major impacts", right up there with last years winterkill. But Robb leaves off the list his flying around all summer, finding the biggest bucks, then surrounding them with long range shooters and hunting them down for 3 weeks not stop. That didn't make the list!

One certainly has to laugh at people like him and the crap they say. They'll say anything to rally followers. Then once he has a group of fools thinking he's the savior of mule deer, he'll hack their opportunity to increase quality so he can continue flying around and killing even bigger bucks at the cost of the fools who follow him.

He's not a friend of non-residents at all. He robbed us of opportunity to win brownie points with residents. Non-residents will almost certainly never see those tags again. Gone forever, regardless of a deer rebound in region G.
Now he's trying to get residents of WY to give up tags.

Yes, it gets me worked up, and that doesn't often happen. I've just heard enough of his blaming everybody and everything else for the possible diminishing quality of mule deer in Wyoming. And the diminishing herd as a whole. Yet he's real quiet about any affects he's had.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-17 AT 09:58AM (MST)[p]Meanwhile while Wiley puts this out on the net about saving the deer in Region G, including griping and blaming the scouting competition like Founder does, he's out flying a plane to find the big bucks and has long range shooting schools to help his hunters kill more big animals!!! IMHO that article is more than a little bit self serving and hypocritical when he is calling for curtailing resident hunters as his main way to reduce pressure and it won't hurt him a bit when the people that use an outfitting service like his are generally NRs. Addendum: I see Founder spoke his mind while I was typing my post and on the phone for a couple minutes before my post was done and up.
 
A crisis demands action not just words. If Robb is truly ready to give it all up, as he says, then do so. Stop booking hunters today. Cancel all your currently booked clients, 3 years out by the way, and refund their deposits. Then and only then, can this crisis be averted. Talk is cheap, actions show the true character of a man.

BTW, I cant seem to find a single Outiftter in G that is posting their sub 50% success rate on guided mule deer hunts on their website. They really should let the public know how bad they are at helping make their clients dreams come true before they cash the check.
 
Brian,

I understand your frustration with Wiley and what he does.

Which is the exact reason why you should also understand the frustration that Resident hunters have with what you're doing.

Even though you say you've only had 2 top end bucks taken from the information you sold, there are other ramifications of what you do and how it likely does impact the deer herd.

Everyone you sell information to, has a buddy, they tell a friend, who tells another friend, it happens all the time.

The information you share snowballs into more and more people figuring out where those bucks are, where they live, and how to hunt them.

My point is, that there are A LOT of pressures on that deer herd over there and for anyone to point fingers at the other guy, whether you point yours at Wiley, or he points his at you...is a bit disingenuous on both of you.

If you both really cared enough about the herd, Wiley would quit his long-range crap, flying, etc. and you would quit selling out deer via scouting packages.

My guess is that neither of you will unless forced to via regulation...which IMO, really shows where your priorities truly lie and how little you're willing to give up to give those deer a break.

For the record, I'm not going to fall on a sword over the bill that's going to be run this session to stop your scouting service. I cant lose either way from my perspective. If it passes, you don't get to sell your scouting packages, I'm fine with that. If it doesn't pass, you can continue to operate, and perhaps take some clients from outfitters...I'm fine with that too.

But, the sad part is, that those that supposedly care the most about mule deer, are the last to want to give anything up that is impacting mule deer. That is troublesome, sad, and leaves me scratching my head if anybody really does care about mule deer as much as they claim.

Also, I believe there are a bunch of things that haven't been tried yet that would really help the situation in G. Shorter seasons, stopping the youth doe hunting, over-passes, etc. etc. etc.

Even though I work over in that country from May to October, know it very well, see some nice bucks there, I don't even bother hunting it. Prefer to not participate in that chit show.

By the way, I think I saw you checking your buck there at the mouth of Greys River...didn't put it together until I saw a picture of your buck. Looked like a nice one, congrats.
 
I completely understand where you're coming from BuzzH, there is no doubt that when I tell someone where I saw a big buck, they have a far better chance of harvesting a big buck. No doubt.
The frustration I have is when people want me to stop helping a few guys increase their chance of success when these same people are buying long range rifles, better gear, flying around in a plane all summer and all that so that they themselves can improve their chances of success.
Why is it that I should stop what I like to do to save deer so that others who make no sacrifice can go kill them?

As I see it, people don't like for me to tell others where I saw a big buck because it might reduce their chance of killing the big buck. It has little to do with worries about deer herds. It's all about them trying to reduce competition.

The current bill they're trying to pass doesn't end the practice of someone selling information in their head about big game, it just gives it to outfitters, guides and a few others who can find the loopholes, to do it.

I'd be shocked if the bill were to pass. Totally unconstitutional. How can a state control what I publish in a report? A censorship law like that isn't just a little thing. No group who values the First Amendment is going to like that. After they control what I can say, what else will they want to censor? Maybe eventually they'll pass a law that none of us can talk about Wyoming mule deer anymore on the Internet. You know, it's a "major impact".

BTW - Thanks on my buck. He was no beast, but it was rewarding to get the one I was after. You do any good?


>Brian,
>
>I understand your frustration with Wiley
>and what he does.
>
>Which is the exact reason why
>you should also understand the
>frustration that Resident hunters have
>with what you're doing.
>
>Even though you say you've only
>had 2 top end bucks
>taken from the information you
>sold, there are other ramifications
>of what you do and
>how it likely does impact
>the deer herd.
>
>Everyone you sell information to, has
>a buddy, they tell a
>friend, who tells another friend,
>it happens all the time.
>
>
>The information you share snowballs into
>more and more people figuring
>out where those bucks are,
>where they live, and how
>to hunt them.
>
>My point is, that there are
>A LOT of pressures on
>that deer herd over there
>and for anyone to point
>fingers at the other guy,
>whether you point yours at
>Wiley, or he points his
>at you...is a bit disingenuous
>on both of you.
>
>If you both really cared enough
>about the herd, Wiley would
>quit his long-range crap, flying,
>etc. and you would quit
>selling out deer via scouting
>packages.
>
>My guess is that neither of
>you will unless forced to
>via regulation...which IMO, really shows
>where your priorities truly lie
>and how little you're willing
>to give up to give
>those deer a break.
>
>For the record, I'm not going
>to fall on a sword
>over the bill that's going
>to be run this session
>to stop your scouting service.
>I cant lose either way
>from my perspective. If it
>passes, you don't get to
>sell your scouting packages, I'm
>fine with that. If it
>doesn't pass, you can continue
>to operate, and perhaps take
>some clients from outfitters...I'm fine
>with that too.
>
>But, the sad part is, that
>those that supposedly care the
>most about mule deer, are
>the last to want to
>give anything up that is
>impacting mule deer. That is
>troublesome, sad, and leaves me
>scratching my head if anybody
>really does care about mule
>deer as much as they
>claim.
>
>Also, I believe there are a
>bunch of things that haven't
>been tried yet that would
>really help the situation in
>G. Shorter seasons, stopping the
>youth doe hunting, over-passes, etc.
>etc. etc.
>
>Even though I work over in
>that country from May to
>October, know it very well,
>see some nice bucks there,
>I don't even bother hunting
>it. Prefer to not participate
>in that chit show.
>
>By the way, I think I
>saw you checking your buck
>there at the mouth of
>Greys River...didn't put it together
>until I saw a picture
>of your buck. Looked like
>a nice one, congrats.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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Brian,

Why is it that you think Wiley should give up flying and shooting long range just to give you a better chance to kill a buck?

That circular logic can go on forever. Like I said, its apparent that neither of you care enough to do the right thing. Sometimes when people cant act responsibly on their own accord for the sake of others and our wildlife...then we have to pass laws and regulations to make them comply.

Its how it works, unfortunately. Laws aren't passed because of the 99%, they're passed because of the 1% that just cant seem to get it right.

I did well this year, got to hunt 3 states, spent some time hunting with my family and friends.

Lots of "firsts" for my nephews who are 10 and 13...they're both going to be good, ethical and conservation minded hunters. They already are.
 
I've never asked Wiley to quit flying or shooting long range. I don't like either, but that's just my opinion is all.

The only reason I even mention his name is because he's tried to portray me as a "major impact" and made claims that I operate illegally (which both are false) while not mentioning his impact at all.
He can do what he wants. The WY Game & Fish will have to regulate around it, and that's how I feel about me sharing my knowledge.....they'll have to manage around it, just as they do all the other things out there that increase a hunter success rate.

I really don't want to sound like a selfish butt, but people are crazy if they think I'm going to give up what I enjoy doing so that they can have more enjoyment doing what they enjoy doing. Instead of me quiting what I do, maybe those who think it's a "major impact" should stay home, save deer. That would then benefit me. I like that idea better.

If you want to believe that me not wanting to give up what I enjoy doing as not caring, then have at it. I care just as much as all of you who "think" you have all the answers and that your way is the right way. I let a lot of bucks live in that country over the years, probably at a much greater rate than most.
I've contributed over $4,000.00 to the state of Wyoming in the past 6 years via license fees and killed one buck. How many others have done that? Have you done that? Does a residents tax dollars pay the Game & Fish that much for one buck? Nope!


>Brian,
>
>Why is it that you think
>Wiley should give up flying
>and shooting long range just
>to give you a better
>chance to kill a buck?
>
>
>That circular logic can go on
>forever. Like I said, its
>apparent that neither of you
>care enough to do the
>right thing. Sometimes when people
>cant act responsibly on their
>own accord for the sake
>of others and our wildlife...then
>we have to pass laws
>and regulations to make them
>comply.
>
>Its how it works, unfortunately. Laws
>aren't passed because of the
>99%, they're passed because of
>the 1% that just cant
>seem to get it right.
>
>
>I did well this year, got
>to hunt 3 states, spent
>some time hunting with my
>family and friends.
>
>Lots of "firsts" for my nephews
>who are 10 and 13...they're
>both going to be good,
>ethical and conservation minded hunters.
>They already are.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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BUZZH
Like I said calling the kettle black, I guess if the guide didn't tell the hunter where that big buck was it would nice too.
Flying and spotting deer is a whole lot easier then climbing that mountain and finding deer.

So you think Rob flying and spotting those deer and GPS them and then leading several hunters into alot of big bucks is fine then.

Tell us how you feel about the wilderness law with a guide only for NR on Federal lands that belongs to all Citizens that pay taxes.

We have had this discuss about the Outfitter welfare law.
I think you and the group you belong to are Lock & Stock & barrel staying hand in hand with those outfitters.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-17 AT 04:22PM (MST)[p]Gator,

I really think you need to slow down there fella.

No, I don't think Robb flying for deer is right or fair...and BTW, who do you suppose got the flying regulation changed?

I didn't see you or Brian making any effort to do so...but I did see Jeff and I talking directly with GF commissioners, the upper brass of the Wyoming GF department, and working with the WY AG office to come up with the current regulation. You know, the regulation that makes it illegal to scout from the air for big-game from August 1-January 31.

I also don't like what Brian is doing either, but currently there is no law against it. Like I've already said, I'm not going to burn political capitol either way on the issue...I win either way the bill goes.

The argument that what I'm doing is a lesser impact than what the other guy is doing...well, that's not helping to reduce the over-all impact. Impacts are additive...each whittling away at our herds.

How do I feel about the wilderness guide law? Not sure how that relates to this discussion, but I've been consistent on it for a long time.

1. Land ownership has NO bearing on who owns the wildlife in any State. Supreme court has decided that a longggg time ago.

2. The State of Wyoming has the right to manage their game as they see fit. The regulation is a wildlife management regulation...court case on that as well.

3. I think, other than what goes on in AK, its the most discriminatory hunting regulation to NR's that exists, absolutely hate it.

4. Its nothing but outfitter welfare.

5. It would be incredibly hard to repeal it and I just don't see a majority of WY residents supporting a repeal. The benefit to them is areas they can hunt with reduced NR pressure (I think its mostly a perceived benefit since there are ways around it as a NR).

Brian, you aren't the only NR hunter in Wyoming that contributes a boat load of money to the GF Department. I'll tell you what I tell all NR hunters that hunt here, thank you for choosing Wyoming as your hunting destination. Greatly appreciated.

BTW, in the last 17 years, my wife and I have contributed $3000 to the AccessYes program here, and we don't get any licenses for doing so. Several years we've been in the top 10 individual donors to the program. The group I chair has also contributed another $1700 to the same program.

If the time I spend on issues here were worth a buck an hour (pun there)...It would make your 4k look pretty dismal.

Funding is additive and only a small part of what people do to make a difference...nobody is the hero.

Perhaps if we were all willing to give up just a little for the sake of our deer herd...it might make a whole lot of difference????

I think doing the right thing is additive too...
 
I dont like the Wilderness Law in WY, but if WY can get away with it, all states should have the same law or no state should have it.
 
Another WY G&H thread!!?? There's at least 2 others posted in the last week. And yes, you're gonna need lots of popcorn!!

It's obvious the NR's are the problem! :D :D
They killed 342 deer in Region G in 2016!!

Copied from a previous post:

From 2016 Harvest Reports:
5868 active resident hunters in G, killing 2743 deer
648 active non-res hunters in G, killing 342 deer
**Please note these numbers are from voluntary harvest reports, and some hunters may be double-counted, but it is the best information available**

From 2017 Drawing Odds:
958 non-res tags available in Reg G and H combined
 
Perhaps if we were all willing to give up just a little for the sake of our deer herd...it might make a whole lot of difference????
Those of as non-residents gave up 33% of our tags last year for the good of the herd, I'd say we've done a lot on our end. Are you going to give up 33% of your hunting opportunity for the sake of the herd???


Brian Latturner
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-17 AT 05:14PM (MST)[p]I have given up 100% of my opportunity to hunt in region G for the 17 years I've been a resident...like I said, its a chit show that I avoid.

Cant give up more than that.

Areas that provide this type of controversy, I wish they didn't even exist.

Everyone wants everything, and its the other guys fault...self reflection is in short supply.
 
Hey Founder, I hope you realize my comment above was sarcasm! In no way do I believe the 342 deer killed by NR's is the majority of the issue facing the herd. As a NR, it is both amusing and frustrating that so many people seem to think we are the root cause of the problem, and that reducing NR tags will save the herd.
 
I know this might not go over but.....

Seems like this squabble is yet another reason ALL businesses involved with public land hunting should be outlawed. What I see is a skirmish between two businesses, neither of whom pay a dime for the product they sell. If a outfitter wants to run a commercial business on hunting, then he should lease or own private land. Loggers pay per tree/acre. Oil drillers pay. Cattle grazers pay. What did this guide pay for the product he sells? Don't tell me a state license. I have one, and at no point does the taxpayer give me sheetrock to sell.

20 guides guiding it, Founder selling scouting. You really can't figure out the issue? And who loses? Wyoming residents, DIY guys trying to draw tags. Yet another example if the chit show that comes from the "professionals", perhaps that part of the equation needs to go away?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Yes, I know that.


>Hey Founder, I hope you realize
>my comment above was sarcasm!
> In no way do
>I believe the 342 deer
>killed by NR's is the
>majority of the issue facing
>the herd. As a
>NR, it is both amusing
>and frustrating that so many
>people seem to think we
>are the root cause of
>the problem, and that reducing
>NR tags will save the
>herd.


Brian Latturner
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There we go then, non-residents and you have done our part. Who's up next!!!



>LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-17
>AT 05:14?PM (MST)
>
>I have given up 100% of
>my opportunity to hunt in
>region G for the 17
>years I've been a resident...like
>I said, its a chit
>show that I avoid.
>
>Cant give up more than that.
>
>
>Areas that provide this type of
>controversy, I wish they didn't
>even exist.
>
>Everyone wants everything, and its the
>other guys fault...self reflection is
>in short supply.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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Robb Wiley urged everyone to check out his manifesto in the Wy Guide and Outfitter catalog I received last week. I read it and was going to go to his website to comment so I will do it here as well. There are many issues contributing to the mule deer decline. It is bad in most states. I live in Idaho and shoot a deer about every 4th or 5th year because I just think it's more important to leave the 3 year old or less deer on the mountain. That's my contribution in addition to supporting several Mule deer conservation organizations. Some will say that's great others will say that's not enough. There will never be consensus on what it will take to turn the mule deer spiral around, if it can be turned around.

Comment on Wiley's suggestions:

if the tag reduction were implemented as he suggests it would not hurt his business a bit. He has established a great business and there is a market for what he does. I wish he would have been more credible by acknowledging that his finances would be unaffected by the reduction of permits.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-17 AT 10:17PM (MST)[p]
Maybe if half of those here put this much effort into their own state they wouldn't be spending 4,000.00 in wyoming. Some here are always talking about what wyoming should or shouldn't do, but you never see them on their own state forum trying to change anything. Now, I've asked this question over and over again but still no takers. How many are pushing their own state for more NR deer/elk tags? Just saying..

For the record, I hate the wilderness law (I'm a resident) and it should be changed, but as buzz mentioned it will never happen do to the huge smelly turd, wyoga. Also,I would much rather see Brian sell a few deer locations than to have just one outfitter, especially those like Robb. When all the private in this state is leased up by Sy (SnS) and his cronies, or a percentage of NR tags are outfitter sponsored, fools like PLK will be to blame.
 
Well H#ll seem like alot more of us are on the same page, We are just a different style of thinking on HOW it should be done. Outfitter welfare is a huge problem due to the fact about the only NR tags they want to see is a Outfitter one.
I know all about the state rights to the animals, BUT look the private rancher has to pay for grazing right to federal lands SO just maybe States should have a few rules they have to follow to let NR hunt those same lands. Grazing fees.
Buzz
I would like to Thank you for all you have done to help the Herds.
Grosventrehunter, Yes some are whining about now having a tag every year, BUT they aren't willing to sit out a year or 2 and wait for that tag, Me I'm on the sideline for 6 years so far in Wyoming.
I'm waiting to get the unit I want to hunt with family and friends.
Outfitter welfare is just that.
One year we sat up camp in a place(unit H) where a outfitter has a yearly camp no-one was there a few days pass and I hunter stops by and tell us if the outfitter comes by we will have to move because by LAW that camp spot belong to him.
Well we didn't move but I have wondered how can a outfitter "OWN" a spot on federal land that was ok'd by a State Goverment.
Had a little sign on a tree.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Gator, I know of two different outfitter camps in the wilderness that have their pole corrals up year round, fire pits bigger than Madonna's vi%$!, multiple meat poles hung and nothing is ever done. To me outfitters are the biggest moochers of state and federal lands. Sy and his wyoga cronies are all poison to our hunting heritage. Also, it's about time the state/feds start raising grazing fees on ranchers. How can we expect deer/elk to make it through the winter when most of their habitat has been grazed over by fat cattle and sheep.
 
Deerlove you are right it was hanging low.
Then it wasn't hanging at all.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
>Gator, I know of two different
>outfitter camps in the wilderness
>that have their pole corrals
>up year round, fire pits
>bigger than Madonna's vi%$!,
>multiple meat poles hung and
>nothing is ever done. To
>me outfitters are the biggest
>moochers of state and federal
>lands. Sy and his wyoga
>cronies are all poison to
>our hunting heritage. Also, it's
>about time the state/feds start
>raising grazing fees on ranchers.
>How can we expect deer/elk
>to make it through the
>winter when most of their
>habitat has been grazed over
>by fat cattle and sheep.
>

Sounds like you like Sy about as much as I do, LOL!
 
Also, it's about time the state/feds start
>raising grazing fees on ranchers.
>How can we expect deer/elk
>to make it through the
>winter when most of their
>habitat has been grazed over
>by fat cattle and sheep.
>

Amen to that!
 
>Well we didn't move but I
>have wondered how can a
>outfitter "OWN" a spot on
>federal land that was ok'd
>by a State Goverment.
>Had a little sign on a
>tree.
>
>"I have found if you go
>the extra mile it's Never
>crowded".


- To answer your question...Outfitters dont get to choose where their camp is. They are TOLD by forest service exactly where they can set up camp, and that is the only place they are allowed to have the camp set up. They cant go out and set up a spike camp wherever they want like a DIY hunter in WY. So that is why a little sign on a tree is there, the outfitter isnt the one who makes that decision, it is the government.
 
Is this what the outfitters tell people like gator when he's found in "their" spot? From my understand they only have to register their camp location and aren't told the exact spot where they camp. Do they also tell outfitters it's of to leave huge fire rings, corrals and meat poles up all year long in wilderness areas?
 
mntnguide is correct. F.S. determines camp locations.


>Is this what the outfitters tell
>people like gator when he's
>found in "their" spot? From
>my understand they only have
>to register their camp location
>and aren't told the exact
>spot where they camp. Do
>they also tell outfitters it's
>of to leave huge fire
>rings, corrals and meat poles
>up all year long in
>wilderness areas?


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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>
>>Well we didn't move but I
>>have wondered how can a
>>outfitter "OWN" a spot on
>>federal land that was ok'd
>>by a State Goverment.
>>Had a little sign on a
>>tree.
>>
>>"I have found if you go
>>the extra mile it's Never
>>crowded".
>
>
>- To answer your question...Outfitters dont
>get to choose where their
>camp is. They are TOLD
>by forest service exactly where
>they can set up camp,
>and that is the only
>place they are allowed to
>have the camp set up.
>They cant go out and
>set up a spike camp
>wherever they want like a
>DIY hunter in WY. So
>that is why a little
>sign on a tree is
>there, the outfitter isnt the
>one who makes that decision,
>it is the government.

This is not quite right. Outfitters can get permits for spike camps. They may be told that location too, I don't know.
 
Utah used to have over 200,000 resident hunters every year. Can you even guess how much worse Utah would be today if we just ignored the fact that something had to change? If i lived in Wyoming i would fight hard to keep my hunting rights the same as always but the population is growing steadily everywhere and at some point there has to be the realization that the status will not stand forever. Even if non residents were issued zero tags on public land we all share in it will someday soon not be enough. Can the resource with stand the pressure? The only real question is when something needs to change, not if. Maybe its 10 years and maybe its now but it will have to change. Unless of course Wyoming puts a moratorium on move ins and babies. (someone is welcome to now say Utards should not be allowed to move here!)
 
I have a few questions for all of you that feel as though residents need to go to a limited quota in both G and H.

1. How many of you have actually spent any time scouting those areas in the summer when you can actually get a good feel for the amount of bucks that are in the area?

2. Why would any of you take at face value anything an outfitter has to say without thinking about what his agenda truly is?

3. How many bucks would you say in a 5 or so square mile area is a good amount on their summer range?

4. Why do you think Old Rob wasn't on this same soap box say in the past years, but now he is?

5. Do any of you watch founders pod casts about his scouting trips in Wyoming? Sense I know the answer to question 1 for most of you would be you have spent little to no time up there, do you believe how man bucks Brian says that he sees every year? Last year was right on par with all the rest of the years...

Old Rob is bent out of shape because he is killing less of the big bucks for his clients because both the non residents and resident diy guys are hitting it harder then ever before. Now he has more competition then before, and if he cant keep producing like before, he will not be able to charge the prices on his hunts he has in the past. It is funny to me that both of these areas produce some of the biggest deer in the world every year, along with tons of great 170" to 190" bucks every year and many of you that have never even set foot in those areas feel the need to tell us how to fix the problem we have! haha no thank you I think I like my problem just how it is, you can keep your Henry mountain once in a life time hunts and type up how great you had it once every 30 years or so!!

Believe me, if the people that actually do hunt these areas start to see a problem, I would bet we would be the first to start asking and also demanding change!

Not the changes old Rob wants though. More like ones that would actually help the heard. Here are a few that I can think of off the top of my head...

1. Have all the seasons in both G and H all be the same opening and closing dates. For that matter I also think 135 should be managed separate for the non residents then the rest of G also.

2. Start putting money towards deer crossings in the Kemmerer area.

3. mandatory harvest reports for all areas in the state for deer.

4. NO flying PERIOD!

5. Get rid of the wilderness law for the outfitters welfare checks.

Here are a few examples that would not only help the deer, but would also make the hunting experience more enjoyable by spreading people out a little bit.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-17 AT 07:00AM (MST)[p]Tknez,

That was a well written post! I appreciate your input and opinion much more than the typical ?if you don't like it, then stay the f out of Wyoming.?

I do have a follow up question for you. Why don't the residents request or deman the changes you speak of? If they will help the existing herd increase in number why not do it now?

Anyways, thanks again for the input. Region G was an awesome place and really humbled me. You guys are incredibly lucky to be able to hunt it every year!

Edit:

Honest question, why do you feel 135 should be regulated different? Thanks.
 
>1. Have all the seasons in
>both G and H all
>be the same opening and
>closing dates. For that
>matter I also think 135
>should be managed separate for
>the non residents then the
>rest of G also.
>
>2. Start putting money towards deer
>crossings in the Kemmerer area.
>
>
>3. mandatory harvest reports for all
>areas in the state for
>deer.
>
>4. NO flying PERIOD!
>
>5. Get rid of the wilderness
>law for the outfitters welfare
>checks.
>
>Here are a few examples that
>would not only help the
>deer, but would also make
>the hunting experience more enjoyable
>by spreading people out a
>little bit.

Hard to find anything to argue with in this post. For those that do not know, you will be hard pressed to find a person that has more knowledge and experience in G and H than Tknez and his family.

I believe the Kemmerrer mine is looking at opening a pit on the north side of Hwy 30. I think a great idea would be to divert some reclamation expense towards overpass construction. Not increasing their reclamation expense but rather using the money in other places. Overpasses will be far more beneficial to the wildlife than a re-sloped highwall or backfilling an old pit.

Getting rid of the Wilderness guide rule will do more to disperse hunter pressure than anything else.
 
>Both of you are wrong in
>my opinion it should be
>illegal to do what both
>of you are doing. Bunch
>of b.s

Please expand on that, as we have no idea who the heck you're even talking about when you say "both" and there are a number of people making comments, many of which in the last couple posts make sense IMHO.
 
Mulecreek---I really like the ideas in your last post and have one comment and one question. The comment is that the NR wilderness rule will never go away just like no flying at all even though many of us would like it to probably will never be adopted. The question I have is why do you feel that unit 135 needs to be a separate unit, which I assume you mean to be made into a LQ unit?
 
Ss you are 100 percent correct in asking why we haven't asked for or demanded those very things... I for one have been as guilty as anyone about sitting by and just being happy with just how good we do have it here in Wyoming! Not any longer though. I along with others will be demanding some of if not all of those very things along with fighting against the evil empire (wyoga).

As far as the question about 135. Let me start by saying that I have not had near the experience there as I have in the rest of G and also H. I do have some though, both summer scouting and also hunting it a bit the last couple of years. To me it is more of an access and type of a hunt then anything else. I just feel that part of G is so much different then most all of the rest of G and H it only stands to reason it should be managed as a stand alone.
 
>Ss you are 100 percent correct
>in asking why we haven't
>asked for or demanded those
>very things... I for
>one have been as guilty
>as anyone about sitting by
>and just being happy with
>just how good we do
>have it here in Wyoming!
> Not any longer though.
>I along with others will
>be demanding some of if
>not all of those very
>things along with fighting against
>the evil empire (wyoga).
>
>As far as the question about
>135. Let me start by
>saying that I have not
>had near the experience there
>as I have in the
>rest of G and also
>H. I do have some
>though, both summer scouting and
>also hunting it a bit
>the last couple of years.
>To me it is more
>of an access and type
>of a hunt then anything
>else. I just feel that
>part of G is so
>much different then most all
>of the rest of G
>and H it only stands
>to reason it should be
>managed as a stand alone.
>

Thanks for your answer to the question ss and I posed regarding unit 135. I goofed and asked mulecreek when it was your post within his that I missed and thought it was him saying that. I figured that it may well have something to do with roads and easier access than the units up north in G that I hunted in 2015 and was in with a buddy on his hunt for moose and deer in 2016.
 
>
>Getting rid of the Wilderness guide
>rule will do more to
>disperse hunter pressure than anything
>else.

With relation to mule deer, I don't think you'd be able to see an affect. Region G has pretty much no wilderness. Region H has the wilderness but the bulk of the deer herd doesn't live in wilderness areas.
 
>>
>>Getting rid of the Wilderness guide
>>rule will do more to
>>disperse hunter pressure than anything
>>else.
>
>With relation to mule deer, I
>don't think you'd be able
>to see an affect.
>Region G has pretty much
>no wilderness. Region H
>has the wilderness but the
>bulk of the deer herd
>doesn't live in wilderness areas.
>
You are correct in reference to region G. I would disagree in regards to H. H is where I primarily hunt. The non wilderness areas in H concentrate the non resident hunters to huge degree. For me, it had gotten to the point where the trucks at the trailhead I hunt out of was me, an outfitter and 4-7 out of state plates. 2 years ago I drifted down to G for a few days and I was surprised by how much less the pressure was at the smaller trailheads. There are also wilderness areas in H that are fantastic hunting. One area that I frequent, is largely devoid of hunters other than the outfitter that runs in that area, myself and one of my friends. I hunted the wilderness on the west side of the Tetons a few years ago and if it weren't for day hikers and trail runners you wouldn't see a soul. The hunting there is not as good as other areas but it is still a solid place to find a buck.

Further, removing the guide requirement would alleviate some of the high PP requirements for other areas like G. While I believe the hunting is better in G than H, it is not a night and day difference. There is a reason it took 6 PP to get a G tag and only 2 PP to get a H tag last year. I believe the majority of that reason is the guide requirement.
 
>You are correct in reference to
>region G. I would
>disagree in regards to H.
> H is where I
>primarily hunt. The non
>wilderness areas in H concentrate
>the non resident hunters to
>huge degree. For me,
>it had gotten to the
>point where the trucks at
>the trailhead I hunt out
>of was me, an outfitter
>and 4-7 out of state
>plates. 2 years ago
>I drifted down to G
>for a few days and
>I was surprised by how
>much less the pressure was
>at the smaller trailheads. There
>are also wilderness areas in
>H that are fantastic hunting.
> One area that I
>frequent, is largely devoid of
>hunters other than the outfitter
>that runs in that area,
>myself and one of my
>friends. I hunted the
>wilderness on the west side
>of the Tetons a few
>years ago and if it
>weren't for day hikers and
>trail runners you wouldn't see
>a soul. The hunting
>there is not as good
>as other areas but it
>is still a solid place
>to find a buck.
>
>Further, removing the guide requirement would
>alleviate some of the high
>PP requirements for other areas
>like G. While I
>believe the hunting is better
>in G than H, it
>is not a night and
>day difference. There is
>a reason it took 6
>PP to get a G
>tag and only 2 PP
>to get a H tag
>last year. I believe
>the majority of that reason
>is the guide requirement.

I hunt H areas myself. Have for a few decades. Just because its wilderness doesn't keep non-residents from avoiding the area. I've seen plenty of non-residents 'walking the wilderness boundary' during deer season, every year. There are lots of non-residents bumping the wilderness areas year after year, from the first week to last couple days of the season. The size of the country dictates how most residents and non-residents are accessing certain portions of wilderness in H. If the weather is fair that first week of hunting season during September than your going to see more backcountry camps and I could see more non-residents taking advantage of that if they could. But as the season gets into the second and third week and the weather gets colder not many are willing to go in deep and set-up a cold spike camp, resident or non. And horse users are a minority and livestock use is becoming less as a whole. I'd bet most residents don't even get to the wilderness boundary after the weather turns. Resident or non, 5-6 miles from the trailhead wherever their camp is, is the limit for most and by 5-6 miles hunters are just bumping the wilderness boundary from many access points in H. So from my perspective & experience, I just don't see how opening wilderness areas up to non-residents is going to spread the hunting pressure out. Just don't.....and I do believe non-residents should have the opportunity to hunt wilderness in Wyoming...its public land. And as far as pressure at trailheads, on any given day, any given year, whether its in G or H, trailhead pressure could be more or less. It just depends. I've counted as many as 16 horse trailers and another 12 trucks at H trailheads on the opener as well as the outfitter camp next to all the kaos. 4 days later and remainder of the season, its a couple trucks and the outfitter.

These are just some of my observations. I hunt wilderness and non areas every year. I cannot say one is better than the other. I find roughly the same amount of bucks in both areas. If you have a fantastic wilderness area spot, I'd keep that quietly in my pocket, lol....
 
I have no doubt the oil and gas have had an impact on Wyoming mule. However.......there has been no oil or gas on most of the State of Utah or Colorado, the populations of mule deer have been down well over 40% on many units in all Western States.

I believe we need to be extremely careful what we focus our efforts on to turn this trend around, in all Western States, so we don't waste time, energy, and limited dollars trying to fix something that isn't causing the major part of the decline.

Utah, because it seemed obvious, spent 10s of millions of dollars, of State, private, and Federal money on habitat restoration projects. The professional mule deer biologist told us, the decline was tied directly to old decedent habitat. After twenty years of monumental labor, and money was spent Utah dropped from over a million mule deer to less than 250,000, by 2007. Many of the 250,000 were on private land.

Wasted money, wasted time, because the wrong problem was being blamed by professionals that were trusted to know and understand what was causing the decline. They were wrong.

Of course, oil and gas has caused some deer loss. Of course, poor habitat caused some deer loss. Utah fixed its habitat, no significant increase in deer numbers resulted.

I believe, if you removed all of Wyoming's oil and gas, your deer herd would not grow significantly.........because it's not the primary cause of your deer herd decline.

I believe it's something else.

DC
 
>I have no doubt the oil
>and gas have had an
>impact on Wyoming mule.
>However.......there has been no oil
>or gas on most of
>the State of Utah or
>Colorado, the populations of mule
>deer have been down well
>over 40% on many units
>in all Western States.
>
>I believe we need to be
>extremely careful what we focus
>our efforts on to turn
>this trend around, in all
>Western States, so we don't
>waste time, energy, and limited
>dollars trying to fix something
>that isn't causing the major
>part of the decline.
>
>Utah, because it seemed obvious, spent
>10s of millions of dollars,
>of State, private, and Federal
>money on habitat restoration projects.
> The professional mule deer
>biologist told us, the decline
>was tied directly to old
>decedent habitat. After twenty
>years of monumental labor, and
>money was spent Utah dropped
>from over a million mule
>deer to less than 250,000,
>by 2007. Many of the
>250,000 were on private land.
>
>
>Wasted money, wasted time, because the
>wrong problem was being blamed
>by professionals that were trusted
>to know and understand what
>was causing the decline.
>They were wrong.
>
>Of course, oil and gas has
>caused some deer loss.
>Of course, poor habitat caused
>some deer loss. Utah
>fixed its habitat, no significant
>increase in deer numbers resulted.
>
>
>I believe, if you removed all
>of Wyoming's oil and gas,
>your deer herd would not
>grow significantly.........because it's not the
>primary cause of your deer
>herd decline.
>
>I believe it's something else.
>
>DC


Hahahhahahaha UTAH FIXED ITS HABITAT....HAHAHAHAHA OMG! Thanks for the laugh ..


《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
>>
>>Utah
>>fixed its habitat,
>>DC
>
>
>Hahahhahahaha UTAH FIXED ITS HABITAT....HAHAHAHAHA OMG!
> Thanks for the laugh
>..
>
>
>《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》


I gotta agree with AWESOME on this one. Anyone that makes that statement has no concept of "habitat".

ClearCreek
 
I thought you had the mule deer decline all figured out Lumpy, didn't you say:

"Because the public land hunter will not protect the future of public land mule deer populations. If you think I'm full of sh!t, simply go back and read the comments made in this discussion.

Its not over yet, but it's a few killing winters way. We are at the tipping point. Without a much larger critical mass, base population, public land mule deer are toast. Could it be prevented, hell yes, but the public land hunter is never going to won't allow it."

Yep, that's right, you blamed it on the public land hunter.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-18 AT 02:08AM (MST)[p]Yes I did. Who's responsibility is it to take care of mule deer herds on public lands?

John Malone's and Ted Turner's?

If not you........ who?

DC
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-18
>AT 02:08?AM (MST)
>
>Yes I did. Who's responsibility
>is it to take care
>of mule deer herds
>on public lands?
>
>John Malone's and Ted Turner's?
>
>
>If not you........ who?
>
>DC

I completely understand why guys like Wiley blame the decline of mule deer numbers on hunters in antlered only areas. Their main focus is having more bucks available for themselves and their clients. The simple truth and it's been pointed out by Tknez, the population of deer in region G was increasing, in fact overall numbers were very high, before an extremely bad winter reversed the trend.

What I don't understand is guys like you and Letmgetbig who claim deer hunters, killing bucks, will be the decimation of the deer herd. The simple truth here is that buck/doe ratios after hunting season are just fine, which means those deer hunters had little to no effect on overall population. It doesn't take much good common sense to understand, for most people anyway, that the foundation of a strong deer herd is it's female population. How about talk about those things that cause doe deer mortalities and get off the fallacy that it's hunters in antlered only areas causing deer declines.

I have an even better idea: maybe you should get involved and become part of the local mule deer initiative group, like I have. Oh, wait, you don't live here do you? I guess it's not your responsibility then, is it?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-18 AT 09:34AM (MST)[p]Listen son, we know very little about each other, our back grounds, our knowledge, our on the ground experience, our academic training and our individual bias's. What you know about what I know about mule deer, their nature and the nature of the environment they live in,and what I know about human nature and.........what I know about what you know,, could be wasted away in an thirty second rain shower.on a Sunny Sunday afternoon. I'd say the same about this Outfitter that your all wadded up over.

Let me finish my conversation on this topic, by giving you a more succinct way to make your argument:

bucks don't give birth to deer.

Or even shorter still: bucks don't have does.

It's more effective and everyone understands exactly what you mean.

Rest easy sonny, you'll win this fight, one way or the other, you will win, guys like you always have and always will. I've been down this road many, many times, I know where this goes and how the story ends.
 
After reading your last post I think you need to lighten up a little DC because IMHO you're wrong from the getgo on this one, as well as your comment about Robb Wiley, the owner/outfitter of NTO! The guy is a total ##### that's only interested in how much money he can make getting his high paying clients out to kill every big buck he can find. He's guilty of most of the things he mentioned in his BS article, including flying a plane to spot and mark every big buck he can find, but hasn't done a thing on his own to help the herd in G and H. He's a lot worse than Founder will ever be in regards to taking a number of big bucks, although I also hate the way people, and not just Founder, are now selling information to make it easier for people to kill big bucks. jm77 puts more time into walking the walk and not just talking the talk than anyone I know out in WY, other than possibly BuzzH, and if you listen to anyone on the net about conservation and mule deer he's the one you should listen to. Happy New Year and thanks for all the prayers you and Cody sent my way that helped me beat that cancer scare this month!
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-18
>>AT 02:08?AM (MST)
>>
>>Yes I did. Who's responsibility
>>is it to take care
>>of mule deer herds
>>on public lands?
>>
>>John Malone's and Ted Turner's?
>>
>>
>>If not you........ who?
>>
>>DC
>
>I completely understand why guys like
>Wiley blame the decline of
>mule deer numbers on hunters
>in antlered only areas. Their
>main focus is having more
>bucks available for themselves and
>their clients. The simple truth
>and it's been pointed out
>by Tknez, the population of
>deer in region G was
>increasing, in fact overall numbers
>were very high, before an
>extremely bad winter reversed the
>trend.
>
>What I don't understand is guys
>like you and Letmgetbig who
>claim deer hunters, killing bucks,
>will be the decimation of
>the deer herd. The simple
>truth here is that buck/doe
>ratios after hunting season are
>just fine, which means those
>deer hunters had little to
>no effect on overall population.
>It doesn't take much good
>common sense to understand, for
>most people anyway, that the
>foundation of a strong deer
>herd is it's female population.
>How about talk about those
>things that cause doe deer
>mortalities and get off the
>fallacy that it's hunters in
>antlered only areas causing deer
>declines.
>
>I have an even better idea:
>maybe you should get involved
>and become part of the
>local mule deer initiative group,
>like I have. Oh, wait,
>you don't live here do
>you? I guess it's not
>your responsibility then, is it?
>


You'd Best get yourself a Job with the UDWR!

"""We Got 100 Head left & 15 of them are Bucks!"""

"""The Herd is Doing Mighty Fine with Ratio's like that!"""

JUDAS!

Let's Count Total Numbers of Deer and then if you wanna Run Your BS Buck to Doe Ratio's get after it!
 
Gotta love this, Lumpy calls me "sonny", tries to school Wyoming hunters on deer and me on how I should explain things. Funny though, when he wanted to come to Wyoming deer hunting, wonder who he PM'd for advise? Yep, you guessed it, ole "sonny"!

And elkass gets what he deserves...crickets.

Happy New Year!
 
>Gotta love this, Lumpy calls me
>"sonny", tries to school Wyoming
>hunters on deer and me
>on how I should explain
>things. Funny though, when he
>wanted to come to Wyoming
>deer hunting, wonder who he
>PM'd for advise? Yep, you
>guessed it, ole "sonny"!
>
>And elkass gets what he deserves...crickets.
>
>
>Happy New Year!


JUDAS jm!

That the Best You can do in 2018?:D
 
>>>LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-18
>>>AT 02:08?AM (MST)
>>>
>>>Yes I did. Who's responsibility
>>>is it to take care
>>>of mule deer herds
>>>on public lands?
>>>
>>>John Malone's and Ted Turner's?
>>>
>>>
>>>If not you........ who?
>>>
>>>DC
>>
>>I completely understand why guys like
>>Wiley blame the decline of
>>mule deer numbers on hunters
>>in antlered only areas. Their
>>main focus is having more
>>bucks available for themselves and
>>their clients. The simple truth
>>and it's been pointed out
>>by Tknez, the population of
>>deer in region G was
>>increasing, in fact overall numbers
>>were very high, before an
>>extremely bad winter reversed the
>>trend.
>>
>>What I don't understand is guys
>>like you and Letmgetbig who
>>claim deer hunters, killing bucks,
>>will be the decimation of
>>the deer herd. The simple
>>truth here is that buck/doe
>>ratios after hunting season are
>>just fine, which means those
>>deer hunters had little to
>>no effect on overall population.
>>It doesn't take much good
>>common sense to understand, for
>>most people anyway, that the
>>foundation of a strong deer
>>herd is it's female population.
>>How about talk about those
>>things that cause doe deer
>>mortalities and get off the
>>fallacy that it's hunters in
>>antlered only areas causing deer
>>declines.
>>
>>I have an even better idea:
>>maybe you should get involved
>>and become part of the
>>local mule deer initiative group,
>>like I have. Oh, wait,
>>you don't live here do
>>you? I guess it's not
>>your responsibility then, is it?
>>
>
>
>You'd Best get yourself a Job
>with the UDWR!
>
>"""We Got 100 Head left &
>15 of them are Bucks!"""
>
>
>"""The Herd is Doing Mighty Fine
>with Ratio's like that!"""
>
>JUDAS!
>
>Let's Count Total Numbers of Deer
>and then if you wanna
>Run Your BS Buck to
>Doe Ratio's get after it!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


I would feel pretty confident in saying if you have a deer herd of 100 deer and 15 of them are bucks, then of course that heard is in very bad shape! Has anyone in talking about this herd that we are all talking about ever said or even suggested any different? Where is this herd you are speaking of?

How about a deer herd that has almost 40,000 deer in it, and also has a very sustainable buck to doe ratio of mid to upper 30's bucks to 100 doe. It has been on a steady increase of numbers over that last 10 years of about 12,000 deer. The objective is 40,000. And last but not least some of the largest deer every year in the west are taken out of this herd. Would you say that herd is in huge trouble and also mock the buck to doe ratio?
 
>>>>LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-18
>>>>AT 02:08?AM (MST)
>>>>
>>>>Yes I did. Who's responsibility
>>>>is it to take care
>>>>of mule deer herds
>>>>on public lands?
>>>>
>>>>John Malone's and Ted Turner's?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>If not you........ who?
>>>>
>>>>DC
>>>
>>>I completely understand why guys like
>>>Wiley blame the decline of
>>>mule deer numbers on hunters
>>>in antlered only areas. Their
>>>main focus is having more
>>>bucks available for themselves and
>>>their clients. The simple truth
>>>and it's been pointed out
>>>by Tknez, the population of
>>>deer in region G was
>>>increasing, in fact overall numbers
>>>were very high, before an
>>>extremely bad winter reversed the
>>>trend.
>>>
>>>What I don't understand is guys
>>>like you and Letmgetbig who
>>>claim deer hunters, killing bucks,
>>>will be the decimation of
>>>the deer herd. The simple
>>>truth here is that buck/doe
>>>ratios after hunting season are
>>>just fine, which means those
>>>deer hunters had little to
>>>no effect on overall population.
>>>It doesn't take much good
>>>common sense to understand, for
>>>most people anyway, that the
>>>foundation of a strong deer
>>>herd is it's female population.
>>>How about talk about those
>>>things that cause doe deer
>>>mortalities and get off the
>>>fallacy that it's hunters in
>>>antlered only areas causing deer
>>>declines.
>>>
>>>I have an even better idea:
>>>maybe you should get involved
>>>and become part of the
>>>local mule deer initiative group,
>>>like I have. Oh, wait,
>>>you don't live here do
>>>you? I guess it's not
>>>your responsibility then, is it?
>>>
>>
>>
>>You'd Best get yourself a Job
>>with the UDWR!
>>
>>"""We Got 100 Head left &
>>15 of them are Bucks!"""
>>
>>
>>"""The Herd is Doing Mighty Fine
>>with Ratio's like that!"""
>>
>>JUDAS!
>>
>>Let's Count Total Numbers of Deer
>>and then if you wanna
>>Run Your BS Buck to
>>Doe Ratio's get after it!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>I would feel pretty confident in
>saying if you have a
>deer herd of 100 deer
>and 15 of them are
>bucks, then of course that
>heard is in very bad
>shape! Has anyone in
>talking about this herd that
>we are all talking about
>ever said or even suggested
>any different? Where is
>this herd you are speaking
>of?
>
>How about a deer herd that
>has almost 40,000 deer in
>it, and also has a
>very sustainable buck to doe
>ratio of mid to upper
>30's bucks to 100 doe.
> It has been on
>a steady increase of numbers
>over that last 10 years
>of about 12,000 deer.
>The objective is 40,000.
>And last but not least
>some of the largest deer
>every year in the west
>are taken out of this
>herd. Would you say
>that herd is in huge
>trouble and also mock the
>buck to doe ratio?

Just sayin...............!

Don't Manage a Deer Herd Strictly off of Buck to Doe Ratio's!

Keep a Healthy Deer Count!

Have Some Bucks Still Alive after all the Hunts are Done that Have Good Genes & Some Age to them to do some of the Breeding!

Don't Kill 100% of the Cream of the Crop every Damn Fall!

Don't have a PISS POOR Managed Herd that has nothing left but MOTL/PISSCUTTER Bucks come the Rut to do all the Breeding!

Go ahead & Do your Buck to Doe Ratio Counts,But don't Manage a Deer Herd by this alone!

That's how they do it around here & it SUCKS!
 
That's why Wyoming is heads above Utah and it's poor management practices from what I keep reading on the net by other Utah residents besides yourself!
 
>That's why Wyoming is heads above
>Utah and it's poor management
>practices from what I keep
>reading on the net by
>other Utah residents besides yourself!
>

Yup TOP!

It's a JOKE in this State!

Deer = Managed for the Almighty Dollar!










It Won't Be Long and a 22" PISSCUTTER will be known as a Trophy that will be put on the Wall!




90087hankjr.jpg
 
Elk I do agree with you if the only thing you use is ANY one factor to manage a herd it is bad!

I have no idea of how bad it is in your neck of the woods, but I am inclined to take your word for it.

Then you also have others on here that claim how Utah has it far better then Wyoming and even starts threads about just that. I can't speak to either because I have never scouted or hunted there, but I would say your opinion seems to be in the majority. That is to bad I am glad I was born where I was that is for sure!


So back to the Wyoming range deer herd "crisis"...

All of the above numbers and facts I posted are about that herd. All of the ways you have replied to manage a deer herd also seems to line up perfectly with that herd. Therefore I will conclude that both you and I would agree that this "crisis" is not so much of a crisis at all, but more of an attempt by special interests to use a very bad winter to drive an agenda.

Kind of reminds me of when there is a mass shooting... yea I never really thought of it that way before, but now that I think of it Rob and Nancy Pelosi probably have a lot in common...
 
Hey Tknez!

The Sad Part is with Proper Management This State Will & Does Produce!

I'd Hate to see other Places destroyed due to the Same kinda BS!

If We had Buck to Doe Ratio's anywhere near what you're Seeing on Our General Units you'd See Permit numbers go up,Way Up & They don't care if they are Nubbins Bucks Still Sucking on their Mothers!

Perty Sad that as Smart as Humans Claim to be they just can't manage a Deer Herd!

I Know when it comes to Management you can't Satisfy Everybody!

But I'll be Damned if I'd Destroy the Herd Trying to Satisfy them all!
 
>>Gotta love this, Lumpy calls me
>>"sonny", tries to school Wyoming
>>hunters on deer and me
>>on how I should explain
>>things. Funny though, when he
>>wanted to come to Wyoming
>>deer hunting, wonder who he
>>PM'd for advise? Yep, you
>>guessed it, ole "sonny"!
>>
>>And elkass gets what he deserves...crickets.
>>
>>
>>Happy New Year!
>
>
> JUDAS jm!
>
>That the Best You can do
>in 2018?:D


Make things up and it's all you get from me. I just wasted 30 seconds replying to you. My bad...
 
"I would feel pretty confident in saying if you have a deer herd of 100 deer and 15 of them are bucks, then of course that heard is in very bad shape!"

You should come to Oregon, ODFW manages for 15/100.
 
Wapiti when I go that far west, I end up in the ocean fishing... haha

And as I said above, if that heard only has 100 deer to begin with that seems like very bad management to me. I am very glad to hunt the herd I do with the buck to doe ratio that is there, but I also hunt different areas of the state that I am sure are much closer to the 15:100 ratio. Not near as fun to hunt imo. That being said if there were only 100 deer total I would be up in arms to take drastic measures to do something about it.
 
Its a Wyoming piece, but short of one CEO, its interesting the responses from the Utah crowd.

I hope you guys up there spread them.


While you guys are wanting to tinker to improve/maintain, the Utah guys keep talking about how you need to NEVER let the "pros" into your hunting. We did here in the 90's during our "crisis", and now we manage deer/elk entirely for what's best for them.

We are still capable of growing numerous deer and big deer, but in order to satisfy the "trophy hunters"( meaning the outfitters, guides, CWMU), in order for the other 90k or so to hunt, we have seriously hurt the herds.

The Utah guys (minus the dude with 380 bulls in SLC, and 30" bucks next to his clothes store) are very aware of what happens when special interests take over management. THE DON, $fw, WYOGA, they are all the same. They wish to increase revenue, limit competition, create a cash cow.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 

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