Mule deer and elk baiting on T.V.?

T

timberline

Guest
Was just watching the Sportsman's channel and saw what appeared to be a guy hunting elk from a blind over a site baited with hay and possibly pelletized suppliments. It looked a lot like Utah country but I couldn't be sure. He had elk and mule deer on the bait site. Didn't see him arrow anything but the premise remains that he was hunting over bait (or it appeared that way).To my limited knowledge, there are no western states that allow hunting elk over bait. Am I wrong?

Just curious if anyone else saw this or knows of its legality. I am not in favor of hunting over bait for anything but bears as I feel it removes the hunt aspect from the hunt. Anyway, I will step down from my soapbox. Thanks.
 
I saw the same damn show!

Big Pig is the name of the show....

He was hunting with an Outfitter on the Extended archery hunt for elk.

I could not believe that some Utah Outfitter would bait with hay and what was that 50lb bag of feed he used? on a national TV show.

With all the info out there about feeding our Mule Deer the wrong feed during winter and how they will die with a full stomach as they can not digest hay.......this Utah Outfitter is feeding them hay......for bait?? WTF

That Big Pig TV host is a piece of work......

Robb
 
I know in oregon that is not illegal to bait whick shocks me since they are so liberal. anyway there is nothing on it in their regs and when you call oregon F/G they say its not illegal but not recommended
thanks
the provider
 
I did not see the show, or know anything about it, but I do have a Q for you timberline.

You said: "Just curious if anyone else saw this or knows of its legality. I am not in favor of hunting over bait for anything but bears as I feel it removes the hunt aspect from the hunt."

So dose this mean you wont hunt over a water hole, I am just curious.




Jake H. SHED OR DEAD IT DONT MATTER TO ME!!!
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
It is legal here in Washington but probably not for long. It is a lazy way of "hunting" IMO.
Eric
famousfigures_abevigoda.gif


Ultra liberal, wolf loving, illiterate, gay, hippie midgets on crack piss me off!!!!

deerline.gif
 
It's legal here in AZ. but the Game & Fish are trying to outlaw it.http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos/1248mdgc0343_(large).jpg
 
Its not illegal to bait deer or elk in Utah. Alfalfa is an excellent food source for deer. The only time they die with a belly full of hay is when its given to them too late and they are already too far gone.
 
JakeH,
No I don't hunt over water holes. I think that placing a bale of hay as an attractant is not the same as hunting over a natural water hole, however to answer your question I do not hunt over water holes. I prefer to spot and stalk. Not always the most productive method, but thats what I enjoy.
 
Thats cool, Im not saying that seting out a bail of hay is the best way of hunting, but honestly hunting over water could be looked at as worse, because the water hole is there all the time and alot of he time it is the only location that the animal can get water where as they can find feed all over the place.

I have hunted over water before, but it is just one method I use, so I would not be one to go throwing stone's at something that is very simular if you ask me.


Again I did not see the show, it could have been done in a very tasteless way, I dont know.



Jake H. SHED OR DEAD IT DONT MATTER TO ME!!!
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
I sure hope the video was not in utah.....I am sure there are a lot of game wardens in this state who would love to catch someone baiting for deer or elk. Someone above said that it is not illegal here? I promise you that you would be fined for something. Those (officers) are given leway to interpret the law, if they think you are in violatio, you will be fined.....if you disagree you can fight it, but you will spend far more time and money fighting the charge than just paying the fine.

I disagree with the waterhole=bait idea. I have nothing against baiting, but most baits are made from items that attract or draw an animal to a location. These items are usually more desirable to the game than what is found there naturally. Something that smells better, tastes better, or is easier to obtain. Man made attractants can often lead to game numbers that are higher and more concentrated than what you would find naturally. Nature has a way of managing game numbers in an area, even if it is "the only water source in the area". Where as man made attractant like "food" can be continually renewed, allowing for higher game numbers.
When you spend the time to get to know the area you hunt, to "find" the funnels, bedding areas, water holes, etc. we call that scouting.
When you "manipulate" and create those things for the sole purpose of attracting the game away from the natural areas and to your creation...that is baiting.

I can see some problems that could arise from baiting, but being that I have never hunted over a bait, I would never go as far as to say it was "right or wrong". But I do believe there is a differance.
 
>Its not illegal to bait deer
>or elk in Utah. Alfalfa
>is an excellent food source
>for deer. The only time
>they die with a belly
>full of hay is when
>its given to them too
>late and they are already
>too far gone.


Apexmtnman,
I mean no offense and have the utmost respect for you as a fellow hunter but please research this fact or explain how you know this.
Take care and best of luck with your future hunts.
 
While visiting friends in Oklahoma, we went to a very crowded night club and most single guys used an ear of corn on a string, dragged across the dance floor, to attract local women.

Is that the same thing?

Is that "ethical"?

It DID seem to work.
 
Many elk and deer live very happy lives on alfalfa. They have plenty of food, irrigation water and move to the cover around the field or sometimes in the tall alfalfa lay down and enjoy the day. Why leave they have everything they need, with great tasting food to boot.

Any field or water hole could be considered a bait site. Its a place that the majority of the animals congregate.


4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
Mtnrunner

UTAH DIVISION OF WILDLIFE RESOURCES
STATEWIDE MANAGEMENT PLAN FOR MULE DEER

Winter Feeding Policy Attachment
Winter feeding is not the simple act of kindness that many perceive it to be, and in fact,
can be a great detriment to the welfare of Utah=s big game herds if not considered
carefully.
Health problems associated with animals concentrating in feeding areas include higher
incidences of eye and respiratory infections. Infection rates of chronic wasting disease
and brucellosis have also been shown to be higher in artificially fed populations of deer
and elk. Reproduction in some herds that are fed every winter; such as the Jackson,
Wyoming elk herd, is dramatically lower than Utah=s herds-at least partly due to
communicable disease.
Range damage occurs in areas around feeding sites because animals continue to eat
other forages even when they are being fed. Where this feeding occurs every year,
natural winter forage is often overused and may never recover.
Depredation on nearby private lands can be caused or intensified by establishing
feeding sites since animals concentrate and usually increase each year.
Intense competition for food in limited space at feeding sites often causes higher death
rates for fawns and calves than under more natural dispersed conditions.
Expense is extremely high in feeding programs in comparison to the relatively few
animals it may help. For example, the cost to feed ALFALFA pellets to one deer for 60
days would be approximately $45 at 2005 prices. The labor and equipment to distribute
the feed could exceed the cost of the feed. The costs to feed elk are approximately
double the costs for deer.
Why private citizens are discouraged to feedB
The Division generally discourages private citizens from feeding big game to
avoid causing increased problems for deer. For instance, it is known that a
steady diet of certain types of feed may actually cause harm to deer. Also, once
a feeding program is begun, animals must be fed until they are ready to move
back to natural forage.
Keeping big game wild-
Supplemental feeding can create significant behavior alterations like disruption or
abandonment of long-term migration patterns. And though nature may seem
cruel, it is perfectly normal for 10-15 percent of deer and elk to not survive a mild
winter; more die during a harsh winter. Animals ill-equipped to survive succumb
to starvation, accidents, predators, exposure, disease, or parasites. Feeding
may save a few from starvation but does little or nothing to halt losses from other
causes.

The Fish and game use ALFALFA PELLETS to emergency feed deer during the winter. Yes, they need other feed also but alfalfa is an excellent food source for deer.
 
The Fish and Game cannot give you a ticket for baiting deer or elk period. Its not illegal, I repeat ITS NOT ILLEGAL TO BAIT BIG GAME ANIMALS IN UTAH. They cannot give you a ticket for doing something that is legal. How many of you holier than thou's sit at a water hole trying to ambush a nice buck. How many of you watch a nice sidehill hoping a nice buck will come to feed, you may not have put the food there but you are ambushing them as they come to a food source just the same. Most of you would stake out your mother if you thought it would give you a chance at a 200 inch buck.
Putting out a bale of alfalfa hoping a nice buck or nice bull will come in and partake so you can get a shot at one is not a criminal offense, get over it.
Worry about things that are really important, like why are your undies all tied up in knots or why do you get headaches over thinking about how other people hunt.
And yes, alfalfa is an excellent food source for deer, just ask all the farmers that have 50- 100 head of deer feeding in their alfalfa fields every night. ( Don't tell the deer they're eating poison, they seem to be oblivious to the fact.)
 
>I repeat ITS
>NOT ILLEGAL TO BAIT BIG
>GAME ANIMALS IN UTAH.

Better check your sources a little better as it's not that plain cut. Look into the new law passed last year. Might give some Conservation officers some ammo to go after abusers.
 
The Fish and game use ALFALFA PELLETS to emergency feed deer during the winter. Yes, they need other feed also but alfalfa is an excellent food source for deer.

Of course they use Alfalfa pellets....what else could they use? Last time I checked there were not large supplies of sagebrush pellets.
The reallity is that Alfalfa is a sufficient food source, but far from an excellent one. Any biologist will tell you that deer recieve far more nutrition from sagebrush and other natural food sources. A biologist in the southeast reagion described it to me this way......Alfalfa is like a bowl of captain crunch, while sagebrush is like spinich. You give a kid a choice and he will eat captain cruch all day everyday, but just because he likes it and stays alive, doesn't mean it is "good" for him. If ya want to grow up big and strong you gotta eat your spinich.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-10 AT 08:17PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-10 AT 08:06?PM (MST)

People were saying that deer die with a belly full of of alfalfa and that feeding them alfalfa will kill them. BS
Here's an interesting read for all you doubters. Be sure and read the last 4 lines of the abstract.

[http://www.jstor.org/pss/3798121]

Notice they say a starvation diet of sagebrush, sagebrush is not the best food source for deer, its their last resort when they are starving.

And Flinger I asked a Wildlife Officer if it was illegal to bait deer and elk and he told me no. And nowhere in the proclamation is it listed as a prohibited hunting method.
 
Just from my experiences with deer and Alfalfa; I have seen deer in alfalfa fields numerous times and have seen deer eating off of hay stacks. The problem with alfalfa comes when it's baled and cured. The microbiota within the deer's gut is designed to break down native vegitation such as bitterbrush. Bitterbrush is one of the preferred vegitation types for deer forage as it has a high protien content. I have seen as many as twenty or so dead deer in and around open alfalfa hay stacks. I opened up five deer and all had zero bone marrow fat (an indication of starvation), no intermuscular fat, and a stomach packed full of alfalfa hay. This is not an isolated incident either. Many of my friends have seen this same thing in winters past.

I think that alfalfa in its green state is a prime food source for mule deer. I don't claim to know the exact reasons why baled alfalfa is so detrimental to deer while green alfalfa is not. I have read some studies that talked about microbiotic shifts with seasonally available food sources. All I know is what I've seen. Just my two cents. Take it or leave it.
 
Pigman should be banned from Hunting in Utah... not for the fact that he did anything wrong...other than he is a Public TV Idiot... He makes Southern Rednecks look intelligent.

After watching the baiting show... and yes it was in Utah and how bad he slams Utahns and Western Hunting... I just want to smack him with my cane.

Destiny
 
" I promise you that you would be fined for something. Those (officers) are given leway to interpret the law, if they think you are in violation, you will be fined."

Not exactly. Actually, not even close.


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Timberline
If you read the last line in the abstract from the link I posted it says" However by the time starving deer arrive at a hay supply, the rumen microoragisms may be completely dead or contain low energy reserves." They need the microoranisms in their gut to digest the food or they will die of starvation with a full stomach. You find them around a hay supply because they concentrate there, but how many die the same way in the wild because of the same problem with different food in their stomachs.
I've seen many dead deer on the winter range and don't know the real cause of death other than supposing it was starvation.
I don't think dried hay is the problem, I think its more the stress of winter and the low supply of food, somehow their digestive system gets screwed up and they die. If you can keep them healthy with regular feeding of hay throughout the winter I think more would survive. Its been done in the past by the Fish and Game, MDF and SFW with good success. I think the secret is not to let them get too run down before you start a feeding program.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-10 AT 10:44PM (MST)[p]1911 Let me give you an example.
A friend of mine is a houndsman and was asked by someone new to the sport to help him learn to train the dogs. So my friend decided to start by showing him how he keeps his dogs in shape. So they load up a couple of older dogs and some pups and go for a ride. He stops. Shows this guy how to put a collar on one of the older dogs. Lets one of the older dogs out along with the pups. (No collars on the pups) He tells him the older dog knows to follow the truck and the pups will follow him. He proceeds to drive down the road with the dogs running behind. He chose an area with low bear activity, as a matter of fact private property was on both sides of the county road.(Why is that significant, because any self respecting houndsman stays away from private property.) Well around the corner comes a DWR officer. Tells him that he can't persue bears (out of season). He tells him that he is just showing his friend how he exercises his dogs. Tells the officer to take note that all but one are pups and they they are not collared. Officer says he believes he has intent to persue and writes him a citation. My friend happens to be aquainted with a certain higher up in the DWR so with fire blowing out both ears he gives him a call. This person tells him that he believe him, but that the officers are given discretion to write tickets based on what they see. It is not against the law to run your dogs behind your truck, but if an officer believes there is intent, they can write you up. You then have the right to contest that in court. He would have won his case, but it was costing him more time away from work than it did to pay the fine. So after the first hearing, he just paid it.
 
I used to work on studies involving captured radio collared deer that tracked them from the middle of winter through the early spring. I performed several necropsies on those that I found dead and observed that those that died from starvation, in a natural setting far from any hay stacks, did so with nearly empty to completely empty stomachs. Not that I am discounting the dead or depleated microorganism theory posted earlier, it's just what I had observed. I deffinitely think that this requires further study as I too have heard and worked with those that feed alfalfa pellets to deer durring winter feeding situations. I feel that native vegitation is best for all wildlife and should be of a higher priority and recieve more attention than winter feeding. Beyond the digestablity issues that may ensue with hay, hay stacks and feeding concentrates deer leading to many more problems such as disease spreading and predator focusing. With chronic wasting disease spreading ever closer, I think that any management activities that concentrate wildlife should be discouraged. Again, just my two cents. I am always interested in any research associated with deer, so if any of you have links or studies that you think are of interest, please let me know. I think that as a hunter and member of several wildlife enthusiast groups, I need to be as well informed as I can to help in any way I can. Anyway, stepping off the soap box. Thanks.
 
I think that most of the "naturalists" find it offensive that we humans can actually be helpful to wild animals and that letting Mother Nature run its coarse isn't always the best solution. But hey, what do I know? I mean look at all of those "Natural" wolves in Idaho, they sure dont need any "Human" interaction.

Man has been involved with deer and what happens with them as much as drought, winter, mountain lions, coyotes or any other "natural" thing has and for just as long, to act like we are spectators now would be a mistake and as the world changes (i.e. less ground, more predators more hunters) we better too.

Son
 
>I did not see the show,
>or know anything about it,
>but I do have a
>Q for you timberline.
>
>You said: "Just curious if anyone
>else saw this or knows
>of its legality. I am
>not in favor of hunting
>over bait for anything but
>bears as I feel it
>removes the hunt aspect from
>the hunt."
>
>So dose this mean you wont
>hunt over a water hole,
>I am just curious.
>
>
>
>
>Jake H. SHED OR DEAD
>IT DONT MATTER TO ME!!!
>
>
458738e374dfcb10.jpg


I would have a problem with it if it was genetically engineered water created to make antlers grow and if you hauled that water hole in on a snowmobile.
 
>While visiting friends in Oklahoma, we
>went to a very crowded
>night club and most single
>guys used an ear of
>corn on a string, dragged
>across the dance floor, to
>attract local women.
>
> Is that the same thing?
>
>
>Is that "ethical"?
>
>It DID seem to work.


it was oklahoma, enough said :)
 
I was responding to posters above that somehow think hay will automatically kill deer when fed to them, which is simply not the case. Yes sometimes if you feed hay to starving deer some of them die, I don't know why, and I think biologists don't really know why. I think it must have something to do with the microorganisms in their gut, but then I'm just guessing. Natural food is better for deer, afterall they've been surviving on it for longer than man has been around.
Sometimes when the snow is so deep that it covers up the natural vegetation and the deer are starving, I think its okay to feed hay to deer, to at least save a few, rather than let them all die.

Running hounds in the mountains during a closed season could be perceived to be intent to chase. If you are going to exercise your dogs why not do it in the valley away from any chance that the dogs might run across a scent to chase.
What does that have to do with baiting deer and elk since its not illegal.
 
It was the Pig Man show, and they were in utah. Yup ol "professional" guide hauled in some nice green hay and 100lbs of pellets. I was flipping stations when I saw this I stopped. I doubt this is the first time this has happened but I was so digusted I stopped on this show. I guess I am from another planet, but I hunt western big game. I HUNT, meaning I go to where said animal lives, on his terms, and try to out do him in his world. Elk, deer(mulies), moose are wild animals and I WAS REALLY BOTHERED seeing some jackazz outfitter bait them with a bigger jackazz putting it on his t.v. show and talking about how he is the alpha male. Whether there is a law or not this is wrong, and YES you whitetail guys who spend all summer planting and growing genetically engineered crops to funnel deer to your tree stand, you ain't no better. This is just another example of how we have lost the soul of this sport. We bait, we shoot 800yd shots, we genetically engineer, we hire dudes to gut and clean, we give the meat away, we "book" hunts at places with 3 and 4 star ratings. Hunting has become a "golf" weekend. Do we blame the shows(they video it), the guides(they sale it), the states(they profit from it) or us(we have become so damn lazy and weak that we want to subtract the effort from outdoor sports)? I don't know, but most of us are in all the conservation groups, what are we conserving, a real life video game were you can do nothing, see no blood, do no work, just pull a trigger and take a picture?
 
Flinger, I can't find anything on the law your talking about. Could you post it up or atleast a link to it?

I talked to a director and he said no it is not illegal. The officer may think its unethical and find something else your doing wrong and write you for that, or say good luck!


4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
Quick follow up, I contacted the DWR to complain. Baiting to hunt big game is not illegal, but is, and I quote "HIGHLY UNETHICAL". Not sure why it isn't illegal but since no law was broken they can't do anything. I have tried to find out who the outfitter was but can't seem to. If you know, post his name so we can add his to the list of shame along with rulon jones, and other outfitters who break laws and bend rules to keep the "hunter success" numbers high. If the state refuses to police these guys, it is up to us.
 
So what is the difference in baiting a deer with hay and setting out a salt lick to film elk with a tree camera? Neither are illegal in Utah and both give a hunter a edge.
 
Nothing, they are the same except the trail cam takes a pic, the baiter kills the hungry elk/deer on winter range. I sent the Pigman an email, he responded with a threat of a slander lawsuit. I had to apologize to him about the illegality of baiting, its not illegal in utah for big game, then I told him what I thought about the ethics of hunting over bait in the winter in Utah. He was hunting the Sanpete extended archery season, don't know who the "master" guide was. Told him that he should try hunting the sanpete during the season on the mountain without the bait, what do you want to bet that happens? I give him credit for standing up for himself, but for a "well known" hunter he falls pretty short. Next time I bet he is as careful as the other "masters" about showing the "tricks of the trade" like high fences and bait. Man I just hope that In fisherman doesn't film on a fish farm, that would crush me!!! Amazing how these guys hype themselves and market and promote and have all these defenders claiming how we are all just jealous when in reality, its not jealousy it shame, kind of like your alcoholic uncle who everyone says is just outgoing, when the dirty little secret is he is a drunk! Baiting is legal, don't need a slander lawsuit, but disgusting, unethical, and just plain sad, especially on the winter range in utah!!! My .02
 

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