Mtn goats non-native and displacing sheep

J

jims

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I was wondering if any of you have read this article on Colo sheep and mtn goats?

http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/article_8699d56b-3931-5b1b-b870-57361f43aba5.html

I'm not exactly sure if there is any proof that mtn goats are non-native to Colo? How about neighboring Wyo and Utah, NV where they have been re-introduced? At one time it was thought they were native and now they are considered non-native? Why the change in thought by the CDOW?

Also, is there any direct and proven evidence that goats are actually displacing sheep? There may be interactions where goats prevent sheep from licking salt but dominate goats to this to other less dominate goats and I would think sheep do the same? Is there any proof that goats and sheep directly compete for habitat, feed, cover, and anything else?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-10 AT 11:54PM (MST)[p]Jim-from-Ft Collins, Jimbo, and Jimmy,

Are you demanding this time that we answer your specific questions and don't drift? Are you set in yer beliefs and opinions before we even respond and then just patronizing us? Are you gettin' just plain mean Jimster in order to liven up your thread as well as this forum and your dismal life?

Cuz, Jim-dude, if ya are......I just might play.

The Dog
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-10 AT 08:37AM (MST)[p]I was hiking in the Maroon Bells Wilderness Area a few weeks ago and saw a stud billy mountain goat in the cliffs above the river. It was cool seeing that goat. But I'd rather have been seeing bighorns. If there is evidence that goats are limiting bighorn populations, I would be in favor of significantly uping the harvest to reduce the goat population.

Colorado should manage first for rocky mountain bighorns, the iconic state animal.
 
Good post. I agree with hornedtoad. I do not have the answers but will be very interested to read some of the responses. There have been two recent articles on the topic in the denver post.

Clearly cdow is taking steps to reduce Mnt Goat populations with nanny only tags and more tags in certain units.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-10 AT 03:07PM (MST)[p]It will be interesting to see which way the wind blows on this one. The debate about whether goats are native or not may never be solved as people comb over old records and sightings of questionable reliability. I like having at least the chance at drawing a goat tag here in CO but bighorns face more threats from people/development/predators than goats, generally speaking, because they tend to inhabit lower elevations and transitional areas that goats rarely visit even in the dead of winter.
 
The WY G & F sez mtn goats aren't native to Wyoming as they migrated in from Montana. I would assume a lot of critters migrated in from somewhere else. Haven't heard where they draw the line when in time something has to move into an area and adapt to be considered native. I think last year the G & F was starting to keep an eye on a couple of goats that had moved into the Pinedale area. Sounded like if they started to reproduce, they were gonna take actions to get them out for fear of competing with Sheep.
 
I recently read an article in Colorado Outdoors regarding the same subject; ie. are Mtn Goats "native"...

I drew a mountain goat tag this year, "yeah for me!!" When I looked at the population trend from 2007 to 2009 in the area my tag is in I noticed that the population has been cut in half.... from 290 goats to 150 last year!! I'm guessing that this was somewhat planned by somebody.. My area is not near Mt. Evans or Rocky Mtn National Park, so I'm not real sure why the sudden need to cut the herd in half.

I'm glad I drew a goat tag when I did, because I suspect that Mtn Goats populations will take a beating in the future, making it even harder to draw a tag...
 
What does it matter? Shiras moose aren't native to UT, ID, or CO, but both have them. For that matter, the Canadian wolf isn't native to the lower 48, but look what we got.

Yelum
 
I'm kind of glad I started this post. There seems to be a lot of speculation but not anything written in stone on this subject. I started a similar post on the RM Sheep Foundation website as well as the Bowsite.com where there have been some good responses.
 
Jim,

I have not seen any evidence to date on the issue. Domestic sheep on the other hand are a problem.

George
 
They should start shipping them up here in exchange for all the sheep we've sent down that way. A lot of the goat populations are really hurting here in Montana.

Where were the Colorado Goats first brought in from?
 
In RMNP they are removing or destroying any goats they see in the park. Sheep have been declining in the CO for the last more than a decade. Many think that goats have at least something to do with that. If it comes down to sheep or goat, I choose sheep!
 
Randy - no sheep from MT have been relocated to CO.

I copied this reply from the comments section on the denver post article. Personally, I find it hard to beleive that there were no goats in CO at any time prior to 1948.



I am the President of the Rocky Mountain Goats Foundation (RMGF).
This article pulls information from a limited source of people and simply maligns the goats as the cause for sheep declines.

The Rocky Mountain goat has been designated as a native species of Colorado due, in part, to efforts of the RMGF. We have evidence of goat populations in this state that go back 400,000 years (Porcupine Cave, near Fairplay). Their relatives have skeletal remains all the way to the Grand Canyon. To say that a REINTRODUCTION of the goat to this area is the cause for a sheep decline is inaccurate. We would like both species to thrive and share concerns with the Park Service on the bighorns.

We constantly have to fight this perception that goats hurt the bighorn sheep. Disease is disease and goes both ways. Aggressiveness of the goats is a survival mechanism. All species have a right to take what they can and protect their turf.

Historically, we have sightings of goats by Teddy Roosevelt, naturalists throughout the West before 1948, and nothing satisfies the people who claim they are non-native. Why did the Colorado Legislature twice list them as endangered in the 1800s? One specifically, (House Bill 133 passed in 1887) said ?no person shall kill or wound, ensnare of trap any Ibex or Rocky Mountain Goat within this state for a period of 10 years?. This was reaffirmed in 1889 in House Bill 143.

In 1898, the United States Cartridge Company stated in their book that the species was limited in number. We have similar cites from the 1870s, 1880s, 1890s, and 1900s. All signs point to the fact that the goat was hunted to extinction. The Denver Times reported in an article in 1900 that the goats were becoming extinct in Colorado.

Based on this evidence presented by the RMGF, on March 11, 1993, the Colorado Wildlife Commission stated that the goat was an indigenous species to Colorado.

We are trying to reach out to the National Park Service to try and resolve this policy so that the RMG is recognized for what it is: a noble creature deserving of protection as well. If more tags are needed to control the population, we are more than happy to support it. We would auction them off in a heartbeat if the State gave the ok.

Alan

Alan Churchill
President, Rocky Mountain Goats Foundation
 
Huh, you're right.
We've sent them to both Dakota's, Utah, Wyoming, and Nevada, but never Colorado. My bad. Either way, we'd gladly take those goats.
 
I'm trying to remember what sheep Nevada got from Montana. I'm not saying it didn't happen. Pretty sure we got sheep from Wyoming, Colorado and Alberta. Just trying to recall which releases came from where. I know I have a listing of sources and destinations somewhere but I don't know where. Do you know the year? You have me intrigued now.
 
I'll try to dig up an article or something, but didn't your ruby mountain herd get some from our blackfoot herd? Pretty recent, would've been like 2005ish. I could be wrong though, just sounds very familiar to me.
Is the ruby mountain herd deserts or rockies? I guess that would answer if I'm thinking right or not.

Also, haven't sent any to south dakota, but we have to Nebraska.
 
Not finding anything. I must be mistaken. Everything I've found concerning that capture was just redistributed in MT. So scratch Nevada from that list. Confirmed though are WY, ND, NE, UT and I think ID.
 
Jimbo,

Started to engage you in this topic, but then I realized the plain truth.

Goats are barnyard animals.......and I don't hunt barnyard animals.

Sorry.
 
Ramtagless, that is some pretty interesting news and the first I have ever heard of it! I would be curious about the CDOW's thoughts on what you stated in your post above?

I guess I am really bored to death so thought I would post a few numbers in regard to Colo sheep and goats. What I thought would be interesting is overlay all of CO's goat units over all of CO's sheep units to see exactly where there are huntable numbers of goats and possible conflicts with sheep.

There are currently 17 goat units and 74 bighorn units in the entire state of Colo. Of the 74 total sheep units only 12 sheep units have goats. In other words, 16% of the total sheep units in Colo have ~goats.

According to the 2009 CDOW stats there are a total of 6,903 sheep in Colorado. I looked on the CDOW website and added up the total number of sheep in the 12 units that have both sheep and goats. Only 1,315 sheep are found in 12 units that have both sheep and mtn goats.

Would there be more than 1,315 sheep in these 12 units if there were 0 mtn goats? Are mtn goats and sheep in these 12 units found in the vicinity of each other and if so are they competing for the same food, water, space, and critical rutting grounds, winter range, etc?

Twopups, Are you sure you don't like the wooly barnyard animal Wyo is re-known for?
 
Randy,

The Ruby herd is Rockys, or what's left of them. Major die off this winter there and East Humboldts. I believe those sheep came from Alberta. The local sportsmen that raised the money wanted those genes so they held out (I think, old age you know).

Again, I'm not saying we didn't get Montana sheep but I don't remember it. I know years ago (like 20) we tried to get some as an alternative to you guys holding so many ewe hunts but it didn't pan out.
 
Hey Jims...just to clarify, those comments were copied out of the comments section on a denver post article. Just thought it was interesting, not my comments. Thanks...
 

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