"Management elk hunt" discussion

[Ticks N Tines]

While hunting the Pahvant this year I was amazed at how many mature bulls were 5x6s or big 5x5s. It raised the question in my mind of: "Why the heck did they eliminate the managment hunt?"

Seems to me that that manangment hunt benefits everyone. It provides the DWR with more money, it gives more tags and more opprotunity to harvest a huge bull. It also breaks some apps away from other hunts for better odds.

I must have seen at least 4 or 5 bulls that would score in the 340-350 class as 5x6s or straight 5x5s. Most people would be thrilled to kill a bull of that caliber on a managment hunt.

I think most of the guys that draw the regular tags will avoid these managment bulls. So now we have tons of managment bulls taking over the herds and passing genes along, while The trophy class bulls are all being harvested.

I just don't see a reason for eliminating this hunt, and I think it needs to be reintroduced.

Does anybody have any insight to this issue? I would appreciate your thoughts and opinions.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[TheGunClaw]

I observed the same thing on the SW Desert. IMO, if reintroduced, the hunt should take place before the bulls break up. My first thought was in August while in velvet. Are the spike only hunts in every unit and are they during august? I am not a big fan of Spike hunts anyhow so perhaps do away with the Spike hunts and replace with a limited number of Management tags.

 

[HorseCreek]

I loved that hunt. To me the state didn't give it enough time to be a success or fail. Tons of big 5's on the Monroe as well.
Traditonal only >>>------->

 

[DR_DEATH]

Is this was your talking about? This bull score 357 2/8ths gross and would be right around 373 if he had equal 16" brow tines on the left side to match the right.

A 350 bull as a management bull???

 

[mathewsman]

I agree with gun claw. Bring it back, but re-structure it for what it is; a management hunt to weed out bad genetics. It defeats the purpose when huge broken up 6's (or more) are getting killed. Do it early before they break up from fighting. Take the tags from the spike pool so your not killing too many & with the lower success percentage, they could give out a lot of tags if they made it a primative weapon hunt which would help the current flooded LE pools. I like the idea.

 

[rackman]

I thought it was great when they did it! I don't know why they gave up on it so soon. I would love to see that hunt again.

 

[huntinfanatic]

When the management hunt was discontinued I called the dwr and asked why it was shutdown. I was told way too many of the bulls killed had 6 pt. frames but had a tine or two broke off. Like many of you have already said and I agree, the simple solution would be to move the hunt dates to an earlier date.

 

[Elkhunter96]

I say use the archery hunt as a good management tool. For the most part, archery guys will take a 320-340 class bull out of the herd where as a rifle guy would pass on that bull. Heck, I was happy to take a nice 330 class 5x5 with my bow this year. I saw and hunted some bigger ones, but it just didn't work out. Give more archery tags and use them as the management tool.

 

[TheGunClaw]

The main point is to reduce the "eternal 5 point" gene so that would not be as controlling of an approach. But you are right. People who don't mind or even prefer to shoot a big 5 (I met one such guy on the SW desert hunt) could simply put in for the 5 point management hunt and have better odds in that draw.

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

My how we forget so quick!
When most of the Bulls that were killed were NOT management type Bulls (As I stated would happen long before these hunts ever started)the DWR found out real quick most Hunters were wanting Trophy Bulls with one broken point!
Taxidermists love broken points & can fix em up nicely!

Most TARDS were looking for Big Bulls that were busted,not Fricken 5 Point Bulls!

Any proof some of the Big Bulls were not a 5 point when they were younger?

After the management hunt somebody started a "Show me your management Bulls thread" here on MM
Only one person manned up on the SJ Unit & posted his Bull,a real PISSCUTTER that should of been shot,the only Bull I've ever seen on SJ with Willow horns,nobody else would post any pics of their SJ management Bulls,Hmmmm,I wonder why?
Because they were big Bastards with a broken point,that's why!

Gonna have to show me where we can add one more f'n hunt in this state?

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[Ticks N Tines]

I like the idea of having an early hunt for managment bulls.
I think if they issued 10 Archery Managment tags and 10 Rifle Managment tags, it would be perfect. That way you avoid most of the big broken bulls, you don't add any seasons, and you add more tags to the pool. Those extra 20 tags would pull at least 700-800 people away from other apps and increase odds a bit.

I would put in for it for sure.

If I remember right there were only a few units involved in the managment hunts. Pahvant, Monroe, and SW Desert. Were there others?

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

There was several HJB,I don't remember all of them?

Just so you know,In my eyes there are management Bucks & Bulls that need to be X'ed!

Problem was Hunters were working the system once again!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[utfireman]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-10 AT 06:00PM (MST)[p]I would move it to the archery hunt, then your not going to have those broken tines.

New Mexico uses point restrictions in some of their area's and have been doing it for years.

 

[slamdunk]

Management elk hunts won't even put a dent in the genetics.
Until you can figure out how to discipline hunters to kill the right bulls and more importantly, figure out how to remove an inferior cow throwing that genetic, your not even going to touch it.
Killing a busted up bull with a regular 6x6 genetic might seem cool to some, but it's only working against what the system was intended for. Then we had people killing young 5x5's just because it fell into that same "loop hole".







http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/slamdunk_04/E1x1BWINV1-2.jpg[/IMG]

 

[2_Point]

Management hunts are not used to alter genetics. Management hunts are used to put pressure on a segment of the herd that is not being utilized.

To reduce bull/cow ratios they must kill bulls. If there are antler restrictions then it protects Bess' Beloved Inches, while targeting animals which regular tag holders are not killing.

Just make people burn their points if they use the resource.

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

2_Point!

As stated a million times!
LE Units were set up for a chance at a trophy Bull!
Not too many people wrapped up in it when it first started!
The Elk started doing well!
Then everybody & their Dog wants a Trophy Bull Tag!

Don't know about you 2_Point?
But I'd rather see LE Units managed the right way rather than the (wrong) way they're being managed today!
This over slaying of Cows & Spikes type of ##### ain't gonna work!
Wanna place any Wagers on it?

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

Hey PUNK?

The DWR & Pro know how get rid of the inferior Cows!
Kill every fricken one of them!
Then BAWL because Bull to Cow ratio's are Fricked up!
Then Pro wants age objectives even lower than Anis!
WAFJ!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[justr_86]

I know that people weren't even hunting the big 5s, they shot broken 6s, spikes, 3s, 4, and small 5s. From the directors mouth! That's why they are no more....

 

[TheGunClaw]

You can't just have them "early" before they start busting points, as in early sept etc as bulls can bust as soon as they strip. The hunts could serve their purpose but it would NEED to be in early August before they strip. If you see a bull with a busted tine in velvet then they have some answering to do to the DWR. That would be treated the same as a poaching case.

 

[Igottabigone]

I understood the management hunts were designed to help the bull to cow ratio. Genetics were just secondary. I was told, when I had my bull checked, that they really didn't care if the bulls that were being killed were broken six points. Anyway, I would love to see that hunt come back just the way it was. Below are the pics of our hunt. Both my bro-in-law and I drew the Desert the first year it was available. My bull, the smaller bull, scored 305 and was 9 years old. My bro-in-law bull scored 340s if it had the g2 on the right side and was aged at 12 years old. It was honestly one of the funnest hunts I have been on.

 

[Igottabigone]

I forgot to mention that we saw 2 or 3 bulls for every cow we saw on that hunt.

 

[Deersman]

Maybe they did away with the management hunt for the same reasons so many folks appose a 3pt or better hunt on deer. To many 6pt bulls are mistaken for management bulls shot and left to lay.

 

[Ticks N Tines]

It's true, people will always try to beat the system. But it was a good way to provide more opprotunity to us hunters and pull people away from some other apps.

I think if managed the right way, this hunt could happen again. But I doubt anyone will even talk about it at the RAC.

Pretty soon most the herd bulls on the Pahvant will be huge 5s.

 

[Flint]

Who says a 5x6 is not a trophy. When I finally draw my LE tag, I will be happy to put it on a nice 5x6 or even a 5x5. Way too many hunters are worried about the number of inches of bone poking out of a bull's head.

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-10 AT 03:27PM (MST)[p]Igotabigone, How long did you look at the bull before you shot him? That was a close one.

And no, the management hunt will never work. If it's just an excuse to shoot more bulls on a unit then ok.

 

[Igottabigone]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-10 AT 08:19PM (MST)[p]We watched him long enough to determine he was legal. In fact, when we had the bulls checked the DWR did not consider my bull to be a 5x6. They were only counting points that were three inches or longer. I know the proc. says otherwise, but that was their standard for this hunt.

 

[isayNUNYA]

The #2 in the WORLD archery bull was a management bull the year before. An unbroken 5x6. The next year he was a 7x6 scoring 443 and killed on the pahvant HJB.
Utah has a management bull unit for smaller class bulls. Its called Colorado.

 

[wstrntines]

Does anyone have a copy of the results or know where to find them on those management hunts i was just curious what they found in their research. I kinda wish we could do 3 point or better on our general season deer hunts maybe it would be a good thing. And a management hunt on the vernon last alot of monster 2 and 3 points had the tag last year saw alot of em.

 

[Silentstalker]

"The #2 in the WORLD archery bull was a management bull the year before. An unbroken 5x6. The next year he was a 7x6 scoring 443 and killed on the pahvant."

+1

These management hunts do nothing for the genetics but make us feel better. Those genes are so common in the good bulls, cows, and "bad" bulls.

If the goal is to help the bull to cow ratio I would support it but only under the following conditions:

#1 It must use bonus points to draw.
#2 Give the youth and older hunters preference if they choose to apply.
#3 Make it a 5 point or club horn only hunt. No 3 pts, 4 pts, or broken bulls. If the penalties are stiff fines and high enough to scare people, they will look real hard at the bull before they shoot him.
#4 Must eliminate the spike hunt on the units that do a hunt management.

I will say this, in tough years the rifle hunters do in fact shoot these bulls and the archery hunters shoot them every year. I have seen pic's of 4 big 5's shot this year. 2 off of the Book Cliffs (bow), 1 off of Monroe (rifle), and 1 off of SW Desert (bow) I am sure others were shot as well.

I had bigger bulls in the area and had no hesitation shooting my big 5 this year. I really like the looks of them and score means very little to me. He will really look nice in my collection.

 

[grizzly]

Pretty much everything you want is already done with the Management hunts for deer on Henry's and Pauns, plus they make you take an online course to teach you to shoot mature inferior bucks instead of young growing bucks.

I think it could work for elk too.

The bull in the picture below was posted in the elk forum and was killed on Meadowville. This is a perfect example of a mature 5x5. Hopefully I'm okay to repost it.

(You all can decide for yourself if it is a management bull or not)

Grizzly

 

[TheGunClaw]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-10 AT 11:20AM (MST)[p]
I am aware of Ryan's bull and how he was a 5X6 the year before but this is an anomaly IMO. There is a definite genetic predominance for those large 5 point bulls to remain as such. Of course sometimes that can change but the "majority" of the time it does not. Those bulls are in the objective age class (average to above average age) so they are in their prime breeding age. As evidence of the large quantity of mature 5 point bulls it is obvious that this is a genetic trait which is going to continue to express itself without intervention. How long would it take to curtail this genetic trait is tough to say but genetics definitely can be manipulated, via selective breeding, to decrease the odds of a genetic trait from being expressed. Notice I said "odds" and "expressed". I cannot say I have studied the literature on the "5 point" trait, if there even is any. I wonder if they (the powers that be) know if this is a trait that is controlled by a recessive or dominant gene. A mature 6 point framed bull could still carry the 5 point gene but it would only be expressed depending on whether it is a dominant or recessive gene and the combination of the cow he breeds with. So you could argue that it would never be eliminated so why try, etc, etc. But it could most certainly be reduced in odds and frequency of expression by reducing the bulls that express the 5 point trait with the management hunts. I believe the science backs this.
Now whether or not Utah wants to do this is questionable. Logically, if you could reduce the quantity of mature, herd breeding 5 point bulls but not negatively impact the herd size and bull harvest age objective decided upon then why would this not be a good thing? There should be a way to manage the tag allocations for each hunt (management hunt vs standard hunts) in a way that you could assure a certain number of mature 5 point bulls are shot without reducing overall hunter opportunity. It's already been expressed that there are enough people that would love to shoot a big 5 point. You could have a wait period for how often one could draw this tag so same individuals don't draw the tag and make it so bonus points are lost when drawn (I believe this was not the case before).
The key is the hunt would NEED to take place in August before the bulls strip, perhaps the week before the archery deer hunt starts.
If the DWR manages it effectively it could work but it would have to be done right and the general public would have to be open minded and patient to letting the process unfold and the results to express themselves which would take time. Those are two things I don't know could happen with this day in age of Media.
Just interesting is all. The public knows what it wants. I just think it could work. Whether or not it is worth the work is another question. On the surface, I think it would increase the "trophy" (subjective) quality which would be better for all involved, the state and the hunters, and the TOTAL hunting opportunity could be kept the same. A side benefit I would think is less hunting pressure during each hunt. Cheers.

 

[Silentstalker]

Grizzly,

That is a heck of a 5 point. After reading this thread I hit several of the other hunting websites. It seems quite a few of these big 5's have been shot this year.

In every picture I saw hunters with big smiles who used a LE tag to kill those bulls. My point being, hunters already do in fact shoot these bulls.

The creation of another hunt to me is silly. But if the majority wanted it or if it could be said it benefits the herd than by all means, I would say go for it. I would just hope it uses points and is fairly strict on bulls they can and cannot hunt.

 

[Ticks N Tines]

My point is that: It would create more permits and more chances to harvest a bull in this state. Anyone that doesn't want more chances at killing a trophy elk in this state is wierd.
As we stand now, it's taking 10 to 15 years to draw a permit.

You create more hunts and more applications and as a result, you create better odds and can draw a tag a year or two earlier. What is the problem with that?

There are definitely concerns with this hunt, but it could work and could have great benefits for the herd and for hunters alike.

Yes, people kill 5x6s and 5x5s on LE hunts right now. And yes, there have been 400 class bulls that were and are managment bulls. But the point is that a managment hunt would create more opportunity.
That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[mathewsman]

Yes it would create more opportunity, which is a good thing, and it would save a few potential 400 bulls being killed when they are spikes.