Makes me sick!

[elkcreek]

A gentlemen in my office spent some time up around the Current Creek area this weekend and came across something that I did not want to belive happens in this state (UT). My friend came upon his favorite deer hunting spot and found a fresh kill. The problem was that it was a calf cow (beef) with a gut shot arrow sticking out of it. He found the cattleman at the bottom of the canyon and he told my friend that it did not surprise him because he usually losses between 5-6 head an archery season. Bowhunters get a bad wrap enough as it is. I can't belive there are idots out there that would even think about getting there kicks off of gut shooting a beef cow.

 

[2_Point]

That is becoming a major issue in the circle of ranchers whom I talk with. Problem is guys like Ironhead on this site. They would never turn their buddy in for doing something illegal. Too many archers feel an entitlement to have "Their Hunt" all to themselves. Many archers on this site propose blunting and make all kinds of threats.

We have a ranch in Utah and never have any problems with rifle hunters and muzzleloader hunters. But every year we are dealing with archers and their illegal activities (trespassing, harassing wildlife, harassing our cattle, even making threats when they are told to leave) and it seems to always be different archers.

Maybe it is time to shorten the bow hunt to 10 days, then there could be more enforcement of the laws.

I would like to see any hunter who shoots livestock in Utah be charged with a FELONY and loose thier hunting rights for life, plus reimburse the rancher 10 fold for the trouble.

 

[DallanC]

>That is becoming a major issue
>in the circle of ranchers
>whom I talk with.
>Problem is guys like Ironhead
>on this site. They
>would never turn their buddy
>in for doing something illegal.
> Too many archers feel
>an entitlement to have "Their
>Hunt" all to themselves.
>Many archers on this site
>propose blunting and make all
>kinds of threats.

Too many people here at MM advocate all kinds of illegal behavior


-DallanC

 

[n2chukar]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-05 AT 12:02PM (MST)[p]That is absolutely inexusable. 4 to 5 cows a year killed with a bow? I find that hard to believe as law enforcement would be all over that and it would not be too terribly difficult to find the culprit. I sincerely hope that is the wrong information as I don't feel most archers are that bloodthirsty! If it is ture -- hang em high!

 

[AZWALKER]

These western states need to wake up and require more stringent rules to archery hunt. I know in AZ they don't require any kind of hunters ed unless you're under 14. I know other states require hunters ed. I just went through a combo course down here in Phx and after taking it I think everyone who wants to hunt should be required to take. It shouldn't be as easy as going and buying a bow and tag and then you're legal. Slob, idiot hunters are gonna ruin it for the rest of us if we're not careful. I really believe in policeing your own and I think more guys should step up to the plate and call these idiots out when we see them doing stupid things. Not that this situation couyld be helped. I think there should be very drastic steps taken to bust these guys and keep them from doing it again. What was it, like $1500 dollars for a mature cow? These guys should be fined at least that much and possibly fined for the cows breading potential as well. Now to be honest, I don't agree with ranchers on every point, but I'll be right by their side when it comes to this crap.... Anyway, thats my 2 cents


Donnie

 

[c3]

I'm going to call BS on the 5 - 6 head a year to archery hunters. I've been bow hunting 25 years and have never seen or heard of a cow being shot by a bow hunter. On the other hand I've seen quite a few that have been shot by rifle hunters.

I had a good chat with a rancher who runs cows up above Moon Lake on Sat. afternoon and he was a great guy. He surely didn't have any issues with bowhunters and his cows up that way.

I'm just being the doubting Thomas that I am and need to see some holes before I'm going to buy even 1/10th of that 5 - 6 head a year much less the stuff 2-point is spraying

Cheers,
Pete

 

[Elkeholic]

I don't know about other states but you can not hunt without hunters safety in Utah and they cover plenty about ethics and making sure of your target. It's called hunter safety not gun safety.
It would NOT require any other course, once they have been through hunters safety they should be aware that this would be unacceptable. The problem is that some will still do it anyway and no amount of courses will stop them.

I also agree that those numbers seem extremely high.

There is a reason they call it Hunting, and not Killing

 

[DallanC]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-05 AT 03:28PM (MST)[p]> I've been bow hunting
>25 years and have never
>seen or heard of a
>cow being shot by a
>bow hunter. On the

I guess the original thread starter is just lying to stir up stuff right? Or that the recient SLC Tribune article on the cattle killings was made up? The pictures they showed were photoshop'd? And the other thead here where people admit to blunting cows, they were all just kidding right?

Yea it must not happen because you havent seen it.


EDIT:

>that 5 - 6 head a year much less the stuff 2-point is
>spraying

Ummm hear-say is one thing, but I personally know and have been on the ranch 2pt referred too... and yes I've been there when there has been trouble with archery people. There are alot of people I'd call a liar in life but he aint one of them.

Whats truely amusing is how "anti-cattle / anti-sheep" archers seem to be but they will go to great lengths to tresspass to get to where the deer and elk are, which in some areas are right smack dab where lifestock is ranged.


-DallanC

 

[2_Point]

Pete- I just re-read my post and I can't find 1 fact which is wrong, nor do I find any of my opinion to be way out of line from the things I have seen. So I will take your smiley face at the end of your post as a tongue in cheek comment.

I was just at an auction this past week and talked with some old ranchers who are having more adn more problems with bow hunters the past few years. Our ranch has problems every year with archers. In the past 5 years we have had problems with archers EVERY year. In the past 5 years we have NEVER had a problem with a rifle or muzzleloader hunter.

Maybe archers just think they are all camo'ed up and sneaky so they can do illegal things and not get caught.?.

I think the problem with the archery hunt is the cows are on Forest Land during the bow hunt. Most cattle are off forest service ground by Oct 1, weeks before the rifle hunt. So I will call BS on your seeing numerous cattle shot with a rifle. (Although I am sure some are shot)

By the way, did you see the post a couple weeks ago in which numerous archers were advocating the blunting, killing, and harassing of the cattle on public lands.

I think the hunter's safety courses are great. I just wish that archers would have to take an extra course in Utah which would teach archery ethics and a Proficeincy Test. I would be first in line, as I have been known to to shoot my bow too. (If you guys can believe that!)

 

[Fireball]

2_Point, There is a class, it is called Bowhunter Education, and it does teach plenty of responsibilty. Though not required by Utah is is required in several states with others looking at requiring before issueing a bowhunting tag. Proficeincy testing is only required in Alaska, and that is only in limited areas, while there are few good things that go along with proficeincy testing, like demostrating that you can shoot your bow, for the most part it leads to promoting irresponsible behavior, the big one being that if you can hit paper at long ranges its ok to shoot at animals at the same distances. Anyway there is going to be a combo class taught the last week of January, first week of Feburary at the Lee Kay Center. If you are close to that area, hope to see you there.
Tim

 

[RuttCrazed]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-05 AT 05:11PM (MST)[p]>Whats truely amusing is how "anti-cattle
>/ anti-sheep" archers seem to
>be but they will go
>to great lengths to tresspass
>to get to where the
>deer and elk are, which
>in some areas are right
>smack dab where lifestock is
>ranged.
>
>
>-DallanC


Ummmm......I generally try to hunt where the deer and elk are, why is that so amusing?

Rut

 

[bowhunter223]

2-point and DallanC: Maybe you boys aught to take up rifle hunting!?

 

[DallanC]

>2-point and DallanC: Maybe
>you boys aught to take
>up rifle hunting!?

I mostly hunt with Muzzleloaders, been doing it for a very long time now. Last year was the first time I didnt draw the general season ML tag, so in order to hunt I bought a bow, spent the summer practicing and shot a single arrow killing a nice 3x4. This year was a repeat of last but with my wife not drawing her general tag. Bought her a bow, she practiced all summer and shot a 2pt couple weeks ago. Big achievement for her IMO.

I have nothing against bowhunting in general and plan to hunt that way in the future when I fail to draw my 1st choice tags... but I fail to understand your statement above, unless you are trying to elude a point that I'm in some way part of the problem??? I grew up on a small farm and know all of the headaches associated with it so I very much lean in favor of farmers and ranchers when I hear of things like this thread is about.

I believe in respect for the animals themselves, I believe in respecting other peoples property be it range cattle or ground. Now if that makes me someone you dont want to hunt with I can glady say that the reverse is true as well.


-DallanC

 

[DallanC]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-05 AT 05:40PM (MST)[p]>Ummmm......I generally try to hunt where
>the deer and elk are,
>why is that so amusing?

It was just an offhanded observation in light of all the "anti" cattle and sheep posts we had last week... a great many people feel it ruins areas, driving the deer/elk out. With that in mind I find it amusing those people who trespass into private property where cows and sheep are run, to get at deer/elk.

It just struck me slightly humorous is all.


-DallanC

 

[Elkeholic]

One thing you could try is letting folks hunt your ground. My uncle owns several hundred acres on some great hunting ground and lets anybody hunt it that wants too. Not a single no hunting sign anywhere. He has cows and sheep and in 30 plus years has never encountered a single problem with hunters.

I think some of these guys just get tired of all the posted property and take hateful actions because of it. I in know way agree with it, but not everybody can control their emotions. Back in the day I never remember seeing so many no hunting signs. I know there are a few vandals out there but I bet most is overstated and the plain truth is it's about them saving it all for themselves. I would do it too, but do not pretend it's because of hunters being disrespectful.

Another thing to consider is what would ranchers do without hunters? The animals would increase to such numbers as to destroy any summer grazing and force them off the Mountain.

I hope the idiot gets caught and prosecuted to the fullest. I also hope that any land owners consider opening things back up. Consider this, would you rather have a few guys sneaking around, getting pissed off at you and vandalizing, or many hunters in there with a better chance of somebody getting caught at criminal acts. Basically more eyeballs watching your place.

Anyway just an opinion.



There is a reason they call it Hunting, and not Killing

 

[bobcatbess]

c3

MAYBE YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF IT BUT IT DOES HAPPEN!!!

IN HOW MANY NUMBERS I DON'T KNOW???

I'D LIKE TO CATCH A LOWLIFE SHOOTING LIVESTOCK NO MATTER WHAT WEAPON!!!

DO YOU KNOW THE NAME OF THE RANCHER YOU TALKED TO UP MOON LAKE WAY???

THESE UTARDS ARE THE LAWBREAKINGEST BUNCH AROUND!!!

YOU EVER NOTICE HOW MANY BULLET HOLES THERE ARE IN STREET/HIGHWAY SIGNS???

I FOUND THREE DEAD CALVES WHILE UP SCOUTING THIS LAST WEEKEND,THE CAUSE I DON'T KNOW???

THE ONLY bobcat WILLING TO RE-TUNE YOUR BOW,RIFLE,IN-LINE,FLIPPER,BLOW-GUN ETC. FOR THIS KIND OF B.S.!!!

 

[c3]

Sorry 2_point! It was tongue in cheek, but at the same time I'm just too old fashioned to believe 90% of what I read these days. That's not to say anything you said was not true, but that one man's experience does not make for the reality of what is really going on out there. Either yours or mine.

Most of my experience with seeing the effects of hunters on cattle ranching has come from my buddies in Montana.

There the problems up in Dillon and on the Big Hole are about equally spread between hunter types for them. Or should I say idiot types. We really shouldn't call any of these folks hunters. Poachers and tresspassers are the appropriate terms.

I hope your buddies can figure out how to prosecute some of these dumb asses. The word might get out and some the idiots would stay away.

It would be interesting to see if the DWR keeps any records of violations vs. weapon type.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[c3]

Bess, it was Eric. I didn't get his last name. Neither of us were too impressed with the elk hunting up that way

Cheers,
Pete

 

[AZbowhntr]

I wouldn't mind seeing an archery class manditory in more of the states but it is kind of like taking the drivers safety class after getting a ticket. Does it really make you slow down? If your a bowhunting idiot before you take a bow class or a hunters safety class, chances are your going to be one after too.

 

[losthuntr]

people who shoot cows are the same people that poach everything else, A couple guys from down south were employed at the saw mill around here a couple years ago and one day the just went on a killing spree, shot 15 of one ranchers cows, a couple elk and around 5 deer, and then they went around bragging about it at work, when they got caught the fine they received didn't even come close to paying for the cows, let alone the wildlife. You just have to face the fact that there are people like that in every walk of life, including hunting.

 

[littlebuck]

I grew up in Manti, I spent allot of time bow hunting from the top of Manti canyon south.
I can remember dead 3 cows that we seen with arrows sticking out of them. Most were real close to skyline drive. Probably from the road hunting clan?

 

[easymoney]

I'm with c3 on this one. I have a similar background and in all these years I haven't heard of this before. I could be wrong, though...
What I do hear about every year from the ranchers, is the fence cutting and animals being chased by ATV's and 4x4's trespassing or poaching on their land. I have had my tires poked while hunting on public land by the locals, then go back to the ranch house and the host tells me that there are local poachers hunting on his posted and fenced land...
All this type of behavior is making us all look bad and it is " a Behavior Problem", not limited to any one state, age or class of hunter.

 

[2_Point]

Pete, we have always had some good discussions and in the end we tend to agree quiet a bit. I think the real problem comes from the competition aspect of hunting. More archers afield now a days who weren't archers before. They don't have the same standards as many do, thus they give Hunting overall a bad name, especially archers.

Look at how the DWR sold out on archery tags this year before the season, for the 1st time ever. Thousands more folks in the woods, hunting their "October" stomping grounds. What do they find in August and Sept that they don't see in Oct? Cattle and sheep. Most grazing permits require the livestock to be off the forest by Oct 1, before the rifle seasons. So these new archers get frustrated and shoot a cow. It does happen and seems to happen more and more every year.

I like what EasyMoney said, "All this type of behavior is making us all look bad and it is a Behavior Problem".

 

[Utbowhntr223]

Wow, There are a lot of opinions some I agree with and some I don't! I for one have archery hunted since I have been able to so about 11 years now, and I have noticed over the years that there are cattle everywhere. I have mentioned in other posts that you just have to deal with it the moral and ethical way.... Just ADAPT to them! Don't make stupid assanine decisions. If you really think about it all of these so-called hunters that are shooting cattle are hurting all of us including themselves. What I mean by that is because ranchers are losing cattle because of these immature actions they will eventually be raising the prices for their cattle, therefore the Grocery stores and markets are going to raise their prices. In another way they are going to make it so none of us will be able to hunt, and that makes me sick! I hope they catch all of these guys that are doing this. It is simply ridiculous and uncalled for. I've also been getting frustrated with all of the different areas that have been posted to no trespassing, but I am not going to go out and shoot a cow. I think Utah should require the archery ethics course. We can all learn more and it would only benefit us. I too agree with EasyMoney. I hope that people start growing up and pull their heads out or we are not going to be able to hunt at all.
For all of the real archers out there like myself lets all hope that these jackass and morons get caught, and get charged with felonies because shooting cattle is poaching. Take a look on the internet look at the definitions for poaching: Poaching is illegal hunting or fishing. It may be illegal because: *The game or fish is out of season.*The animal is on restricted land.*The means used are illegal (for example, baiting a field while hunting quail)*The animal or fish is protected by law, ? the illegal killing of animals or fish, a great concern with respect to endangered or threatened species.
I seriously hope that they find these guys and in my opinion throw the book at them.
If some of these were mistakes.... get glasses or don't shoot until you are positive to what you are shooting at. This is just ridiculous acts of stupidity.
My 2 cents

Utbowhntr223

"LIVIN TO HUNT & HUNTIN TO LIVE"

 

[bobcatbess]

c3

I'LL BET IT WAS ERIC FISHER???

DODGE DIESEL???

I'VE SEEN MORE THAN AVERAGE DEAD CALVES,NO IT'S NOT BEARS & NO I DIDN'T SEE EVIDENCE OF ARROWS BUT IT DOES HAPPEN!!!

IMO THIS WOULD BE LIKE SAYING: OH I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYBODY SPEEDING ON I-15!!!

NOW I GUESS THERE ARE QUITE A FEW ROAD HUNTERS THAT HAVE NEVER WITNESSED IT???

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHY THESE JOKERS CAN'T SET UP A TARGET???

 

[bittersweetmuleymeat]

I grew up on a cattle ranch where archery hunters hunted deer and elk, and where many hunters crossed to get to public land. We NEVER had a problem with ANY hunter bothering the livestock. I guided for over 15 years as well in cattle country and NEVER heard the ranchers complain about losing livestock to hunters. Sometimes leaving gates open or driving where they werent supposed to but that was about it.
Its very unfortunate this is happening. Its really beyond comprehension to me how some coward could do that. (and they are NOT hunters, or I would not classify them as hunters)
If I ever catch any of you JERKS out there doing such a thing, I will personally knock the snot out of you for the MAJORITY of us who are responsible sportsman. Then I will drag you by the balls to the ranchers house and let him knock the snot out of you some more!!!!
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR MURDERING LIVESTOCK OUT OF SPITE!!!!
Bittersweet