Lots of Points = Entitlement???

Daxter

Daxter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,426
Does the number of points it takes to draw a unit give successful applicants a right, or guarantee to a certain type of hunt or trophy? Are they entitled to a certain level of quality due to the number of years they put in?

I had a conversation with a guy who had a Book Cliffs deer tag last year that was really upset because he felt like he didn't get the quality of hunt he deserved based on using 9 points to draw the tag. I told him I didn't think a Book Cliffs rifle deer tag should take 8 or 9 points to draw. However, obviously there are lots of people out there that do, because they still put in. In UT and other states point creep gets worse and worse every year, especially on elk and once in a lifetime hunts.

I am sure that there will be lots of guys with LE archery elk tags this year that will complain that the dates were horrible and/or that the spike hunters ruined their hunt. I wouldn't even be surprised to see some guys file grievances and go to RAC and Board meetings demanding a reinstatement of their points because they didn't get the kind of hunt they felt like they deserved based on the number of points they used to draw the tag.

People have higher and higher expectations for when they do draw their long awaited tag. The guys that draw elk tags and are sure they are going to kill 400 bulls are going to be disappointed 99% of the time. Deer hunters thinking they are going to kill 30" bucks are disappointed most of the time too. I think lots of trophy hunters have unrealistic expectations, mostly fueled by magazines, videos, and sites like MM. Real life rarely measures up to the hype. With UT calling together an elk committee to set up how to manage elk for the next 5 years, it will be interesting to see what direction things are headed.

Your thoughts?

Dax
 
It is hunting plain and simple NO GUARANTEES.

If someone wants a guarantee of a 400 class bull or a 30 inch buck fork up the big money and go hunt behind a fence where you can be GUARANTEED to kill some poor live stock that meets your expections.


THE LORD IS MY ROCK
Colorado, U.S.A
NRA LIFE MEMBER
 
It would be tough to wait so long, spend the draw fees, and a premium above a general tag and end up with not-so-special hunt. The Division largely created the hype for these units and now they can enjoy dealing with the higher expectations from the public. That's life. Right or wrong, I'd be ticked if a drew a le tag and didn't see much for mature animals.

Sometime in the future there will be a limited entry hunt that is largely unsuccessful due to weather. The DWR will get butchered regardless as there are so many people expecting the system to fail. Have fun with that one.

Those who are compaining about dates or other hunts will not have a case. They were aware of the dates and other rules if they read the proc. They didn't have to put in if the terms were not acceptable. Conversely, it seems a bit silly to have a limited entry bull hunt coincide a general spike/cow hunt with unlimited tags.
 
Unfortunately Dax, we have bred that type of mentality into our elk hunting in Utah. With all of the high dollar permits and the Once-in-a-lifetime LE elk permits that take forever to draw we have created that monster. Is it justified? I guess it depends on who you talk to. My personal oppinion is this; you can't limit people in the field, especially when you only get 1, maybe 2 mature bull tags in your lifetime. If you are one of those that wants the mountain to yourself then fine, move the hunt out of the rut and into the second week of October. End the spike hunt on the original dates with bows and carry the LE hunt over a week-10 days. The hunt the muzzy hunt between the bowhunt and the rifle hunt. In short I guess I'm saying that you're not entitled just becuase you have put in for 15+ years. I do believe you are entitled to a tag after biding your time that long however you're not entitled to the mountain.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
YA PAY YOUR MONEY & TAKE YOUR CHANCES.....OIL TAG, LE TAG, ANY TAG...........ITS FUNNY TO ME HUNTERS COULD THINK THAT WAY......YD.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-09 AT 08:03PM (MST)[p]I only have 5 points, and have no idea when I'll draw my LE Elk tag. I'm guessing anywhere from 5-10 more years. I don't know what the quality of elk that will be there, but I'm pretty confident that if I don't get the trophy I want then it will be my fault. IT'S STILL HUNTING!!
How many people put in for units because of a picture they saw, or story they heard. How many people hear of a nice buck or bull get killed in a particular canyon and go there the next day......hello, the animal is dead and packed out..not tied to a tree waiting for you.

How many people post in here that they have a tag and would like to have someone tell them where to START looking. I just saw a guy who killed that "tripod" buck in the Books. He said they had been watching it for over a month. I doubt that he had been hoping to find a place to start looking for deer in June. He had been there before and seen what to expect.
I put in for the unit that I do because I have been there and seen what there is to offer. Am I going to post on here and tell guys what canyons I am in, what I have seen, then ask anybody if they have seen anything better in the unit and maybe where? Absolutly. I know how to hunt, but I also know that animals move and are not in the same draw every day.
If I was on a unit and knew that I was years away from drawing I would totally tell someone with a tag what I had seen. Bulls on the mountian now will be long gone by the time I draw...so why not share the love?
I will only be "entitled" to the area I hunt with and tha dates on the calendar...that's better than what the division was offering decades ago when rag horns made the paper.

I will say that there are too many hunts....that is why they are all over each other......but all you can do is hunt as hard as you can.....
 
It's always a gamble. Sometimes a state sees that they have a ton of max point holders so they increase the tag numbers or make split seasons etc., thereby diminishing the quality to a degree. Like I said, it's always a gamble, but never an entitlement. I can understand the frustration though. It's happened to me.

Eel
 
I remember one year in SE UT they had a ATV Jamboree going on during the ML deer hunt, That put like 300 atv riders riding every trail around talk about loud and dusty. We just move in further and sat on escape routes(saddles) and fill the tags.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I would not be at all surprised if we see guys asking for their points back after hunting elk this year. On lots of the LE elk hunts success rates are in the 80-90% range, which is exceptionally high, but have you ever talked with guys in the 10-20% that didn't harvest? Some of them are fine with it and enjoyed the experience, but I have talked to quite a few of them that are real upset about how their hunt played out, and they want to blame someone.

I think this stuff is going to get worse and worse every year as expectations continue to increase. I also wouldn't be surprised to see lawsuits if the DWR ever does make significant changes to LE elk hunts, like move rifle hunt dates out of the rut. Anybody who spends any time on MM can see how worked up some individuals get when they perceive somebody could be messing with the LE elk hunt they are about to draw. I can just see some lawyer claiming that the DWR mislead their client all those years and then changed their management and that their client is entitled to the type of hunt they thought they would get when they originally started applying. Crazy.

Dax
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, all points do is increase your odds; like in any drawing or raffle, I have 0 points, I have one chance to draw versus someone with 15 points, they have 15 chances to draw. I've known Nevada hunters tell me that they have max points and finally draw after 20+ yrs. of trying; I've heard of hunters drawing a particular hunt on their first try; for example, I drew a bull elk tag with 11 points (11yrs. of trying); I drew a cow elk tag with 2 points (3rd yr. of trying)
Couple of yrs. ago, my wife decided to go hunting again after 17 yrs. not even trying in a coveted area with only 120 deer tags, and she drew!!Like lottery or anything else, luck of the draw!!
 
You're right on Pete. The only thing Utah does different is they reserve a certain percentage of the tags for the people with the most bonuse points. For example, if a unit takes 15 points to draw a tag, the larger percentage goes to people with 9 or more (this is purely guessing). Once you hit that 9 number your odds increase dramatically until you get to the max point spot that will eventually gaurantee you a tag. This does not take into consideration the "jumpers" that scue the odds but it gives you an idea of how it's done. The rest of the tags are distributed randomly throughout. That's why you will see people with 3 points draw and tag and people with 5 points but the guy with 4 didn't get one. In the lower bracket it's purely random.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
I believe that saying just because you drew a tag with a certain amount of points entitles you to a trophy animal, no matter the work you put in on the actual hunt, is sort of like saying that if youve worked at Arby's for 10 years you deserve to get that coveted night manager position, even if you still don't know how to cook the curly fries. Unfortunately this is how some people think and not much can change that.

Its lonely at the top.... just the way I like it.
 
You cannot be serious.........who would expect to be guaranteed a trophy in ANY public land hunt? That's just stupid!

I'd like to be there, when some Nimrod goes to the DWR and wants his points back, because his expectations were not met.

I guess I should be saving all my losing lottery tickets for my refund........they said I was going to be a Millionaire!!!!!
 
No no no nickman. You misunderstood the fineprint. The question was asked...."Who wants to be a millionare?" I do believe I have heard that same question asked on here with a different twist...."Who wants to shoot a 400" bull?" OH OH OH I Do! I Do! I Do!

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
>I believe that saying just because
>you drew a tag with
>a certain amount of points
>entitles you to a trophy
>animal, no matter the work
>you put in on the
>actual hunt, is sort of
>like saying that if youve
>worked at Arby's for 10
>years you deserve to get
>that coveted night manager position,
>even if you still don't
>know how to cook the
>curly fries. Unfortunately this
>is how some people think
>and not much can change
>that.
>
>Its lonely at the top.... just
>the way I like it.
>

Shadows, No that's funny...lmao!!! Didn't know they had an Arby's in Tonopha?

When you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot in it and hang on.
Thomas Jefferson
 
I really do hope that this thread is just a joke!!!!! ENTITLEMENT??!?!?!?!?! WAFJ!!!!!!

I hope that ANYONE that would sue the DWR because the hunt was not up to THEIR expectations loses all hunting privileges FOREVER!!!!!

It just PISSES me off all the whiny asses on this site that think they have to have the Mtn all to themselves and hunt only the dates they want and kill a 400 bull!!!!! IT IS HUNTING....it is SUPPOSED to be hard...we like it to be hard!!!!

Holy crap this thread has me PISSED!!!
 
Anyone who'd expect anything more than an OPPORTUNITY to make a nice hunt is a total freaking moron. I have a ton of points built up in almost every western state, more than 200 total points for all species, and the only thing that guarantees me is a higher liklihood of eventually drawing some good tags. The hunt is what you make of it, and the government has nothing to do with what you put into your hunt, or don't put into it.

My son just drew, with 7 bonus points, what was supposed to be one of Nevada's premium antelope units. What we found was a unit where probably 95% of the unit holds NO antelope, as they're only in localized areas with water, and about 95% of the unit has no water whatsoever. Who's fault is it that it turned into a tough hunt? I don't think it is NDOW's fault at all. They didn't make those mountains and plains dry, GOD did. We put in a strong effort and turned a tough situation into a good hunt. We worked our butts off to find water, and as a result we found antelope. If some nimrod isn't willing to put in the effort, then he has only himself to blame, not any state's game department.
 
Elk hunting trends in Utah.

20 yrs ago not many trophy elk. Not much demand. open bull hunting. mostly.

10 yrs ago when I drew a LE elk tag. 350-370 bulls top bulls in most units. Magazine cover bulls. Trophy elk hunting more popular.

I believe in 2006 over twenty 400 class bulls killed in Utah. Too many bulls for the health of elk herds. Bull cow ratios.

2008 not as many 400 class bulls killed. Lot's of comments. Where's all the 400 class bulls. DWR offers more tags and reduces harvest age class objectives.

2009 Will be a great year for elk hunting. However, the days of more than twenty 400 class bulls killed in one year are over in UT.

I think the current and future DWR goals and harvest for elk in the will be more in line of 10 yrs ago. A few 400 class bulls will be shot. Most upper end bulls will be in the 350-380 range.

To Dax's question. A LE tag allows you to hunt in areas that have trophy bulls and bucks. Some tags are in the rut and some are not. Some are archery, muzzle, and early and late rifle tags. The tag only gives you a chance to hunt. Weather, season dates, burns, road closings, conflicting hunts, etc. can cause problems. It's hunting. Good luck this year and have fun.
 
"I expect all the game where I hunt to be above average." Of course, mathematically that is a self-contradictory statement.

No, the points do not have any specific direct connotation of hunt quality. The state decides how many licenses to allocate in the LE unit each year. If 100 hunters apply every year for a unit with 10 licenses allocated, that implies that it will take on average about 5 preference points to get drawn. If those 100 hunters are deluded as to the quality of that unit, that's just the way it goes. If you don't want to put in for that unit, no one is twisting your arm forcing you to put in for it.

There are cry babies everywhere. Whah! Whah! Whah!
 
Daxter: I know you aren't saying you think these guys would be correct. I just want to argue contrary to the mindset you have described. As I understand it, the LE concept is soley directed to limiting the number of hunters -- and thereby indirectly limiting the number of kills -- in the unit. This is expected statistically to improve the maturity of bulls in the unit: more mature bulls that have a chance to grow big racks. No promises, no guarantees expressed or implied. As in all hunting, a lot of variation can happen. What if there is too little/too much water and the elk migrate out of the unit? Too much/too little food? Snows come early/come late? Any of these factors can change where the elk are and the hunter's ability to get to them during the hunt.

I would argue that the basic error is judging the quality of your hunt by the size of the antlers of the animal you kill. Taking any elk is a tough proposition. If you have a good hunt, enjoy the beauty of the mountains, take a healthy, flavorful elk, isn't that success? If you were hoping for 50" more in the rack but didn't get it, is that failure? What are you hunting for? But that is just my opinion. Others are welcome to their opinion.
 
well it sure is getting boring around here so, if I wait 15 years and finally draw my tag, scout my rear off for 2 months just to have some moron come waltzing into my bull! wtf? your saying I don't have the right to try to run him off or send him in a different direction? yeah right you guys are crazy!
 
In_The_Shadows +1
It's not just about putting in the time, it's about putting in the efforts.

Nickman...i was going to say that exact thing about Lottery tickets! LoL

Gator...You ARE living up to your signature! It's about going the Extra Mile!

Stubaby +10
If someone wants a GUARANTEE on their hunt for a 400" bull, I know this place off 106th (approx) here in SLC that may be able to grow you one AND, it's close to the road so you don't have to use any legwork really, to get your dead animal to your Cadillac Truck (Let's hope it doesn't slip and scratch the paint)!

This is why it's called "Hunting" and not just "Trophy Killing." If you are complaining about spending 10+ years to get a tag for a specific unit, you would think, that you also put in 10+ years of efforts studying what that unit has to offer and where to find them at your given time of the hunt; HENCE the reason why you want to draw that Unit so badly. Add that with a dash of luck and you might get what you waited half your life for. Am I wrong??

Also, do we forget that it's not just management that let's those BIG boys get BIG, it's that particular animals smarts too. There are pleanty of Monsters on non- LE land too that require next to no waiting for a tag, but you better be in shape and ready to get back to where few go to get them (Look at SWBukmaster's success and others).

The only GUARANTEE in my opinion, is that you can have a GREAT time.....If of course, you choose to do so!



This is just my 2?.


~Erock
 
Hornhunter..........and just where, specifically, did you get that "right"? Maybe that other guy has been scouting for 3 months. Arrogance, at best.........

Apparently, you ain't far enough out of the way of other hunters.

I guess you need to just pay someone for exclusive hunting rights on private land, if you expect to be alone on your hunt.

Your public land draw tag gives you no, none, zero rights to reserve some specific piece of ground or a particular herd of animals. Limited Entry or not.
 
Hornhunter - you go ahead and try and run me out of "YOUR" area. If I have a spike bull tag, I will gladly concede that draw to you depending on how you approach me. If you come at me to "run me off" then you'd better be ready for a fight my friend. I'm a nice guy but not quite that nice. I have run into guys like you on the mountain. They have generally been piss poor hunters and the only reason they think they have to have the whole mountain to themselves is because they need the whole mountain to kill anything. Hunters with your attitude can't adapt to obstacles so they need the entire mountain make their mistakes on. Sorry if this strikes a sour note with you but your comment struck somewhat of a sour note with me. But, you are "entitled" to something for sure, and that's your oppinion. Just don't be surprised if that attitude gets you into trouble on the mountain. I sure hope you're a big guy.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
HEY HORN HUNTER.....YOU JUST WALTZED INTO MY BUDDY'S BULL, HE IS A WHOLE LOT MORE DETERMINED/ HARD HEADED THAN YOU, BEEN ON THAT BULL/SCOUTED LONGER THAN YOU, HE IS WAY BIGGER/MEANER THAN YOU, AND HE THINKS HE IS "ENTITLED" .......YOUR ELK HUNT IS OVER....YOUR PROBLEMS HAVE STARTED...YOU MIGHT WANT TO RE THINK THE SITUATION......JUST A THOUGHT...................GOOD LUCK.........YD.
 
dang yd! get some! lol why don't you tell me what you really think? lmao calm down there big guy, its just a forum. and im a pretty big ol boy, bout 6'5" 240
 
Horn needs to change his name to "Big Boy"

Dax,

I wouldn't worry too much about court hearings. The most anyone will be out is $10/year. An attorney will suck out 15 years worth of draw fees in less than an hour. Someone would have to prove that you really put them out before justifying attorney fees alone (unless there was a class action law suite, this is unlikely)

You might want to talk to the state attorney general office if your really worried about it.
 
>Horn needs to change his name
>to "Big Boy"
>
>Dax,
>
>I wouldn't worry too much about
>court hearings. The most
>anyone will be out is
>$10/year. An attorney will
>suck out 15 years worth
>of draw fees in less
>than an hour. Someone
>would have to prove that
>you really put them out
>before justifying attorney fees alone
>(unless there was a class
>action law suite, this is
>unlikely)
>
>You might want to talk to
>the state attorney general office
>if your really worried about
>it.


OR JUST TAKE UP A DIFFERENT SPORT!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-09 AT 04:07PM (MST)[p]sorry guys I was having a little fun at your expense, I just figured id see why those guys can't explain their actions and run with their tails tucked once confronted! rofl again I just wanted to see some reactions if someone was dumb enough to post, I apologize!
and I won't do that again for awhile! you guys are hardcore!
 
>Horn needs to change his name
>to "Big Boy"
>
>Dax,
>
>I wouldn't worry too much about
>court hearings. The most
>anyone will be out is
>$10/year. An attorney will
>suck out 15 years worth
>of draw fees in less
>than an hour. Someone
>would have to prove that
>you really put them out
>before justifying attorney fees alone
>(unless there was a class
>action law suite, this is
>unlikely)
>
>You might want to talk to
>the state attorney general office
>if your really worried about
>it.

Only out $10 a year?! What about the emotional pain and suffering? Not to mention the 400" bull my client is owed. Can you really put a price on the hunt of a lifetime? Or at least what should have been the hunt of a lifetime. My client will settle for nothing less than $250,000 and a fully paid hunt on the White Mtn. Apache or San Carlos Indian Reservations.

Dax
 
In the LE's or tuff draws units that i've hunted, If i do my part, i expect to see fewer hunters and maybe, more or better game animals. For the most part, this has happened.

If i waited 10-12 years to get a tag and the area was crawling with people hunting the same season and there was little or no game to be found despite my best efforts, i'd be disappointed.

I believe those that say different or actually believe different, are in the minority. All this said, i've yet to have a bad hunt of any kind no matter the State, area, or zone, with the possible exception of a state i'll not mention as it hits too close to home for some folks!

Joey
 
Hornhunter,
I feel your pain. 15 years of waiting and 3 months of scouting, finding "your" bull. You deserve it.

Unless, But what about the guy that came along and bought a tag for 60K. He worked very hard his whole life, didn't have much time to hunt while building his business. He is way behind in hunting. He hires a guide to help him. He paid for their services. He's entitled to a big bull. His guides found the bull before you. They have his sheds from the past 3 years you see. They can block the road access to protect their investment. Spotters have been keeping an eye on this bull since June. With all the money, time, history, cost, sheds, video clips, air plane fuel, etc. You are second in line. It's only fair.

Just having a little fun too. I have many friends who guide and do a great job. I'm not against guided hunts either. Hope everyone has a fun safe fall.
 
huntin100 man what you need to do in that situation is sit back a little let them find the bull, call him, then you sneek into position and short stand their butts! but as a respect thing you let them fedl they had a shot, and you can even let them copyright the thing and say the guided you! lol just having more fun guys!
 
I only have like 8 elk points and because I am in school at Utah State I do not want to draw right now. I want to wait another five years believe it or not. Hopefully, my waiting does me some good and I get the bull of my dreams but if not I guess that is the way life goes. The quote, "they were the best of times (for hunting), they were the worst of time (for hunting)" just came to my mind. My mom got a Paunsagunt rifle tag this year and she is only hoping for like a 26" 4 point. I want he to whack a whopper but that is up to her. She should have a great hunt with the new season dates if all the bucks don't make it into Arizona by then.

Dillon
 
>>Horn needs to change his name
>>to "Big Boy"
>>
>>Dax,
>>
>>I wouldn't worry too much about
>>court hearings. The most
>>anyone will be out is
>>$10/year. An attorney will
>>suck out 15 years worth
>>of draw fees in less
>>than an hour. Someone
>>would have to prove that
>>you really put them out
>>before justifying attorney fees alone
>>(unless there was a class
>>action law suite, this is
>>unlikely)
>>
>>You might want to talk to
>>the state attorney general office
>>if your really worried about
>>it.
>
>Only out $10 a year?!
>What about the emotional pain
>and suffering? Not to
>mention the 400" bull my
>client is owed. Can
>you really put a price
>on the hunt of a
>lifetime? Or at least
>what should have been the
>hunt of a lifetime.
>My client will settle for
>nothing less than $250,000 and
>a fully paid hunt on
>the White Mtn. Apache or
>San Carlos Indian Reservations.
>
>Dax


Dax, I hope you're joking with that last comment. If not, you're possibly the biggest moron to ever post on here, and that takes some doing!
 
The last trip that i included a hunt in Utah, I was hunting up by the Grouse creek range and about the second week in, was getting low on gas. There were several "groups" of hunters on the side of the road talking over their hunt and when i noticed Utah plates, figured they'd know where the closest gas was. I asked nice, these guys looked about the same as i do, several different groups, they either looked through me as if i wasn't there or turned their back to me and walked away... Finally found out where to get gas at a little Restaurant in little place called Naft or NAF, something like that...

There's more! There's much more and other reasons that i had a terrible time/trip/hunt in that State, just couldn't wait to get on with my hunts in Colo by way of some great folks and a stopover in Wy. Some of the most unfriendly folks i ever came across and i was there just to hunt, spend a few dollars, and be on my way.

You asked!

Joey
 
CAelknuts,

I would think you have been on this site long enough to know that Dax is just throwing out "what-if's" for mm's to think about. Dax doesn't have clients nor does he have emotional pain and suffering...this is all pure speculative thinking. Great conversation so far by the way.
 
What-if or not, that is totally moronic of any dipshit to even consider something so ludicrous. Anybody who'd ever give this a second's thought has no business stepping off their front porch.
 
CAelknut - moronic is the word for it and I have seen a lot more moronic law suits. I would say that with todays "entitled" society there WILL be some "moron" that thinks he's got a legitmate beef. Somebody that has a deep pocket and doesn't care how much it costs to prove a point. I think the likelyhood isn't good but I wouldn't put it past somebody. I guess I have your permission to stay on the porch this year?

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
>Dax, I hope you're joking with
>that last comment. If
>not, you're possibly the biggest
>moron to ever post on
>here, and that takes some
>doing!

Awesome! I could possibly be the biggest moron to ever post on MM! Take that Bobcat Bess! (just kidding) I am not an attorney, and I am just throwing things out there to see get a feel for the reaction of the MM hunting community (which has been largely reassuring). However, I have based this post on real experiences that I have had talking with extremely dissatisfied hunters. I get to interact with lots of crybaby whiners that feel they were entitled, and I am consistently amazed at what they come up with and how they place blame. I personally just may be a dipsh_t moron that shouldn't leave my porch, but that is not the point I was trying to discuss here.

Dax
 
Dax, if those are the kind of people you're spending too much time with, perhaps you should offer them this greeting. "Go thee forth, and procreate thyself."

See how they react to that articulate way of telling them what many people think they should do.
 

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