Loosing Opportunity Makes Me Sick

2lumpy

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
8,529
I really really dislike loosing opportunity for the disabled and the enabled, it makes me sick. Only one thing makes me sicker. Loosing our deer herd. Our deer herd is still declining, has been, State wide, since the early 1990's.

Any statistic or study you can show me will never change my mind, I know what we had 20 years ago because I was out there counting and classifying them and I know what is see and classify now. I've studied deer numbers from Logan to Kanab for 35 years. Hunted them in numerous different units and studied them every year since 1984. So have many, many others. You could and still can find a few mature bucks in some extremely nasty country and even an odd huge buck or two wandering around in someone's hay field every hunting season. That has nothing what ever to do with the reality of our overall deer herd and the ratios that represent healthy viable herds. Our Utah deer herd is dying. It's dying for crying out load! Even the most optimist of us can surely see that!

It's a biological phenomena and clear evidence to the tenacity of the species that we have anything representing a herd left. What mule deer have overcome to survive in Utah at all is a natural miracle.

Consider the enhanced tools and systems we use to hunt and harvest mule deer:

Why we can no longer manage mule deer like we have done in the past. What has changed since the 1960s?
? Technological Enhancements
? Rifles: Killing Power Capabilities.
? Optics: Accuracy and Locating Efficiency

Sniper Type Rifle Scopes and Long Distance Spotting Scopes
? Range Finders: Accuracy and Locating Efficiency
? Digital Cameras: Infrared Surveillance: Nothing goes undetected
? Access
? More Roads & Improved Roads: Less refuge areas
? ATVs: Less refuge areas & Constant Human Presence
? Mountain Sub-divisions: Constant Human Presence
? GPS/Satellite Maps: Efficiency and Accessibility
? Limited Access To Private Ranches
? Magazines and Web Sites Have:
? Heightened Age Class and Quality Expectations
? Improved Camping Systems
? Both RV and Back Country Camping Technologies:
? increased human presents on the summer and fall ranges
? Occupational Hunters
? Increased numbers of outfitters
? Year round scouting
? 2 to 5 (or more guides per hunter)
? Exponential increase in the monetary rewards for successful harvest
? 1080 Regulations (the Banning of poison to control predators species)
? Increased Predation:
? Coyotes, Cougars, Bears and Birds of Prey (eagles are killing fawns and adults)
? Evolving Sportsman Expectations
? Human pressure is year around:
? Summer-Outfitter scouts are locating deer year round
? Fall-Archers, Muzzleloaders, Riflemen, Depredation Hunters
? Winter-Photographers
? Winter/Spring - Shed Collectors
? Volume of ATV travelers, campers, mountain cabin owners, wood cutters, bicyclists, hikers, etc
? Economic Pressures
? Outfitter?s Investments
? Scouting industry employees many local families
? Economic pressure to harvest older class of bucks
? Few mature bucks go undetected
? DWR Complexities
? Agency budgets must be met regardless of the impact on mule deer
? Cultural and social beliefs as well as Federal political partisanship keep agencies off balance and fearful
? Threats of law suits and court orders alter and restrain biological correctness
? Legislative funding had a neutral effect on deer management at one time, today?s DWR funding system is flawed and responsible for much of the limitations that are negatively impacting sound deer management.

The push and pull between the recreational hunters and the year round hunters consumes human resources and limited funds wildlife funding.

These are but a few of the gauntlets (metaphorically) that our mule deer run every day of the year.

Reducing any of these challenges our deer face, including hunter day?s afield, will help. Reducing the days we shoot at them has been helping in those areas it has been usde, and I don't care what the State Management Agencies claim, if in fact they do. It makes a difference, fewer deer die. I can tell because I can see the difference when I classify deer.

You can turn, twist and spin this top anyway you want to, to justify what we have been doing. The deer are not recovering on any significant range in the State. Buck pockets happen every year, what does not change the fact.

If we continue to manage these animals the way we have been they will cease being a hunt able species in Utah. If one, two or three day hunts will save a few more deer, I'll support it every time and I'll continue to push for more restrictions until I know this animal is on a path toward recover. If you're not on the same page your Utah deer hunting days are numbered, that is also a fact!

Yes, I know elk have had an impact. That is a tar baby issue and I'm not at all convinced what the impact really is, I've witnessed elk lay there ears back and drive deer off water like a dog on a cat, however, I've also watched deer feed right up under the bellow of elk on more than one occasion. I've also seen Colorado?s deer herd rebound in the midst of a huge and growing elk population. So don't give it to me on the elk, I get it. I just don't believe we really know if it's the elk or all the other factors I've tried to list above. It will take more study to know for sure. Seems to me we have plenty of other things to fix while we're studying elk impact.

DC
 
Damn, you are right on! But, the big questin is "Did you get any sleep last night?"
 
Many many good points. Lots of stress on the numbers from all of this, then add a bad winter here and there and you don't have much left!! As stated in other threads I would have to say that the "potential" for $'s in somebody's pocket is at the root of most of it. Yes I know we are in the USA and it is ok to capitalize on opportunities but do we ever draw the line on some of the advancements?
 
Colorado's deer herd is hurting every bit as bad as Utah's. Buck harvest has no measurable impact on deer populations.

http://www.createstrat.com/muledeerinthewest/harvest.html

"Managing season length and timing are two methods managers have used to attempt to alter the age and sex structure of mule deer populations, especially when hunters become vocal about too many hunters, too few bucks or too few large bucks.

Restricting season length reduces hunter days in the field, but doesn't necessarily reduce buck harvest or improve buck:doe ratios.

Hunting seasons used to occur over relatively short periods of time. Today, many states and provinces offer a range of hunting seasons over a longer period of time and with a variety of harvest methods such as muzzleloader, archery and centerfire rifle. The purpose of expanded seasons is to offer additional types of hunter opportunity and reduce hunter densities to improve hunt quality and lessen landowner/hunter conflicts. "

The second paragraph disputes the claims made by SFW on season lengths. WAFWA is made up of some very intelligent and educated people, so I do not lightly dismiss they conclusions.
 
DC, A guy like you has a good case. Do you present this info to the MDF or Wildlife Commission or DOW? If we can't figure out how to manage our wildlife the environmental groups will do it for us and we all won't like the solution. The last issue of the National Geographic Mag talked about the wolves and how they were the saving grace to the Yellowstone. After reading that it just seemed to give aniti's tons of ammo! Something needs to get figured out.
Jerad
Colorado Hunting Consultants LLC
www.cohunthelp.com
 
All those things are true, and they are the reason mule deer hunting in Utah will never ever be as good as it was in the 80s, not to mention the heydays of the 50s and 60s, you might as well stick a fork in it and turn it over, its done. But I believe the biggest factor in overall deer numbers is weather. Droughts and more droughts, then a normal or tough winter once in a while, its changed plant growth and the succession of different plants. Elk are bigger, tougher, and can cope with stressed out habitat better, its no wonder they do well.
 
You're right 2lumpy, something has to happen. Several years ago when I was on the SFW board I pushed and pushed to try and get a Mule Deer Working Group formed to look at options for not only increasing herd numbers, but also improving quality and opportunity. The UDWR did not want the group to form, stating they wanted no changes. Many of us on the SFW stood our ground and eventually they OKed it. I quit before ever seeing the group formed. I don't think it has ever gone anywhere.
My point is, change needs to happen, but there are forces not wanting change.

Many people don't want to see shorter seasons, or date changes because it hurts them personally, or in some cases, financially. But, in this day and age when hunters have such a HUGE advantage over our prey, we must do something to help the prey. We've done nothing for too long.

I feel the same about the Colorado hunt dates this year.....ridiculous!!!! Sure, for the hunter they're great, but not real good for the horny, stupid bucks that will get hammered. I'm still hopeful that they cut 3rd season tags to offset the dates and season length, but who knows.

My point is, we as sportsmen have worked hard over the past 30 years to give ourselves a greater advantage over them deer, it's now time that we give them some advantages, and I think the shorter season is a good move.

I would actually like to see far more things happen to give the deer a greater chance of survival. Early Oct. rifle dates, seasonal road closures in areas, etc., etc. Like everyone else, my brain is full of ideas. The only difference is that I'm right...LOL

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I like your ideas this time guys. There's also nothing wrong with a good old fashioned tag cut either.

Distribute more tags to primitive weapon hunts.

Sacrifice brings blessings. That statement will hold true for the deer herd. Sacrifice now to reap the rewards later.

DeerBeDead
 
Maybe hoytme could propose a lower age objective on the deer herd & maybe give 'more' opportunity while he's at it?
Ya,that'll fix the herd!
 
It's not just Utah. It's all western states. Personally for California,I think the lack of keeping predators under control is the biggest problem we have. F&G say's it's a number of things which is true to some extent in some areas,but for them to say there's a lack of food and to much developement is a joke up here in N.E.Cali. You go to the desert and there's no developement and feed everywhere but just no deer. Mt. lions and coyotes are the problem here.
 
"Distribute more tags to primitive weapon hunts."



There is no such thing as a primitive weapon in Utah. This progression towards bigger, better, faster...whether it is a compound, borestuffer,a centerfire, a side by side, a pick-up, a high-clearance camping trailer, rangefinder, optics, or whatever else. It all gives the hunter the advantage and in the market, that sales. But at what expense?

If you cobble this modern "progression" with the long list of obstacles deer are facing, such as predators numbers/species, deer-vehicle collisions (faster and more vehicles) which are two big factors...AND then continue allocating the same amount of deer tags maintaining a low buck:doe ratio...something has to give.
 
Sorry Bessy, Utah hasn't converted general season deer to age objectives, YET. I am sure it's in the works though. There are things that can/should be done to help the deer herds and increase/maintain opportunity.

1)Change season dates
2)Close many OHV trails during hunting seasons
3)Reduce predator numbers
4)Improve winter habitat and migratory routes
5)Find ways to lessen the elk impact on deer populations

I just think it is a HUGE mistake to focus on the hunter as the problem/cure for the current deer populations. EVERY western state has mule deer herds struggling right now, that tells me it's more than just hunters that are to blame. In fact, I believe hunters are a minnow in the pond of obstacles hurting mule deer populations. The big fish are A]Habitat B]Highways/roads/OHV trails fracturing deer habitat C]Constant human activity year round D]Predators taking a toll on fawn recruitment E]Weather such as severe winters/drought that take years to recover from F]Disease.

Hunters harvest bucks, and as long as we have enough bucks in the mix to breed the does, any 'extra' bucks may actually hurt the herd grow. If a herd is at carrying capacity (mother natures capacity, not human objectives for capacity) the more bucks in the herd means fewer does. Fewer does means fewer fawns. Fawn survival is the best indicator of a herd's health, not how many bucks are 'trophy' size. We need to focus on how to increase fawn survival, and that means improving the carrying capacity of a unit. Habitat improvement is more than just Dixie Harrowing areas, although I believe that 15-20 years from now we will see most of the benefits from this project. It also means reducing constant pressure on mule deer, reducing predators that kill/harass mule deer during stressful times, and increasing corridors that allow mule deer to migrate from summer-fall-winter-spring areas more easily.
 
Well Pro,
I remember the last banner year for Mule deer,I wasn't old enough to hunt but I remember it!
It's been nearly 37-38 years now Pro of the Poorest management in History!
Blame it on what you wish,but GEEZUS don't you think in that many years our deer herds could be better than they are at present?

Again I think it boils down to the 2 biggest factors:
1-DWR selling deer for money for big profits.
2-Opportunists screaming they want a permit so they can happily BRAGG 'I filled my tag' not caring if there's any Quality.

There are around at least 18 reasons why Mule Deer have never rebounded in Utah like the could have,but the 2 I listed above related closely to nothing more than GREED by both sides have been the biggest factors!

Maybe you should take over the Mule Deer management in Utah Pro?
When you get it improved/fixed We will call you PEAYDAYjr,Hell,you could become rich doing so,you're already FAMOUS!
 
Hoytme wrote...

>I just think it is a
>HUGE mistake to focus on
>the hunter as the problem/cure
>for the current deer populations.


Are you kidding me? Why is it when an area is shut down a few years the deer population flurishes? Look at the Books and the Henrys, it only took 5 years of closer and when those units opened back up it was phenomal. We have to focus on the factors what we can control. One factor is hunters #s/season length.

Seriously?



Hoytme also wrote...

>Hunters harvest bucks, and as long
>as we have enough bucks
>in the mix to breed
>the does, any 'extra' bucks
>may actually hurt the herd
>grow. If a herd is
>at carrying capacity (mother natures
>capacity, not human objectives for
>capacity) the more bucks in
>the herd means fewer does.
>Fewer does means fewer fawns.
>Fawn survival is the best
>indicator of a herd's health,
>not how many bucks are
>'trophy' size.


Again seriously? Mother nature knows how to keep a herd healthy not you. She created something called the "RUT". In this "RUT" the bucks fight for the right to breed the does. Only the biggest and baddest get to breed. This is how the herd stays healty. If hunters all allowed to harvest bucks down to the point that only young/inferior bucks are left, you will get a unhealthy herd for sure....

Since mother nature gives a 50/50 chance for a fawn to be a buck or a doe, I bet if human beings were not on the planet, the buck to doe ratio would probably be about 50 to 100 right? That is where the rut comes in, the best of the best pass on the genes.

So I disagree with you there Bart. The more bucks, the better chance of the superior ones passing on good genetics to keep the herd healhty.

Are you really trying to start a group of like minded people?

This has me concerned.


oakbrush
 
"Are you kidding me? Why is it when an area is shut down a few years the deer population flurishes? Look at the Books and the Henrys, it only took 5 years of closer and when those units opened back up it was phenomal. We have to focus on the factors what we can control. One factor is hunters #s/season length"


Oakbrush, what about the Vernon unit? It was closed down for 5 years and then re-opened. The Vernon doesn't give out a lot of tags. I remember when the Vernon unit was LE before it was shut down. We were giving out 1,000 buck deer tags. It was easy to see 60 bucks per day. The Vernon unit now only gives out roughly 100 tags. It's because of HABITAT.

Hunter harvest doesn't impact the overall health of the herd. You talk about the biggest and baddest bucks. What about their offspring? A 2 point buck whose father was a monster buck has the same genes as his father. Bucks also get their genes from their mothers. Yes, you want bigger bucks breeding most the does, but it's NOT necessary. Small bucks which carry those same monster genes will get the job done just fine.

If that was the case then we shouldn't be targeting all the trophy bull elk through age class objectives otherwise the lesser bulls will be the ones doing the majority of the breeding.


I believe groups like PETA would say that hunters hurt the health of the deer herds and if we quit hunting then our deer herds would be more healthy.

That is pure BS. As long as does are getting breed and there is good mule deer habitat then we will always have a healthy mule deer herd.
 
"Are you kidding me? Why is it when an area is shut down a few years the deer population flurishes? Look at the Books and the Henrys, it only took 5 years of closer and when those units opened back up it was phenomal. We have to focus on the factors what we can control. One factor is hunters #s/season length."

A perfect example of how people mistake big bucks with healthy herds. The Book Cliffs were closed supposedly to help the herd POPULATION rebound, it is STILL around 50% of the population objective. Same goes for the Henry unit, world class bucks galore, but the population is struggling/stagnant. So, for you to claim closing areas results in "deer populations flourishing", there is no evidence to support such a claim.

"Since mother nature gives a 50/50 chance for a fawn to be a buck or a doe, I bet if human beings were not on the planet, the buck to doe ratio would probably be about 50 to 100 right? That is where the rut comes in, the best of the best pass on the genes."

The closest example of a herd that isn't affected by hunters, until next year anyhow, is Antelope Island. According to the biologists who are over the island, the buck:doe ratio is 35:100, nowhere near the 50:100 you claim would be present.

"Are you really trying to start a group of like minded people?"

Pay attention! I am NOT starting a group. I am part of a facebook PAGE that was started to give ALL hunters a place to go see what events/policies/programs are going on now or in the near future that affect wildlife in Utah. It is a PAGE where people can voice concern over issues, suggest ideas, DISCUSS ideas. A place where hunters can have the means to be heard at the RAC's, the Wildlife Board, and on the planning committees. If that "concerns you", that deeply TROUBLES me.
 
ARCHERY IS A GREAT TOOL THAT IS UNDER UTILIZED. IT IS A PROVEN TOOL FOR MANAGING MULE DEER or any other species> WE DON'T NEED TO SHUT DOWN HUNTING LIKE ON THE HENRIES> THE WASATCH FRONT IS PROOF! ARCHERY AREAS MANAGE THEMSELVES. Therefore if more archery tags are given in LE units and general units and less rifle tags deer numbers WILL improve and quality WILL improve. NO ONE COULD ARGUE THAT!
If guys sacrifice and only hunt rifle every 3-5 years on a draw system and archery hunt every year instead of the general rifle slaughter all numbers and quality WOULD INCREASE SUBSTANTIALLY. Period.

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
Well,
Part of that might be true but think about this!
Not every TARD is an avid stick flipper!
But they'd all buy a f'n Bow if you had that plan in effect!
How many wounded animals would limp off & die?
Think about it!
 
Probably just as many as the ones that limp off and die FROM THINGS THAT GO BANG!!! CAT!!!! Are ya trying to piss me off???

I spend the bulk of my time in a unit thats got every strike in the world EXCEPT one going against it and I wouldn't trade it for the world. AND I GET TO HUNT THE PLACE FOR OVER 90 DAYS EVERY YEAR!!!







******************************************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Why Hell NO wiley I ain't trying to piss you off!

Let's add about 75,000 tards to your famous feather flipper hunt & lets just see how damn much enjoyment you get out of that?

It's been a hard day of gathering aluminum wiley!
 
Somebody that lives far enough away he doesn't know what a TARD is?
Where are you from?
 
If you make it in to town for the ISE I'd be happy to provide you a AWLB a few full cans to sip from... I'm headed to Cache to flip feathers on Saturday but I plan on hitting the horn porn fest on Sunday.

By the way the unit looks like a pumpkin patch one the bang season and to be first in line at a trailhead ya gotta get up damn early






*******************************************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Ok,I just broke the Websters out.

TARD =

...a tard is someone who despite hearing the little voice in his head saying.....i wouldn't do that sshit if i was you....does it anyway

...a tard is someone who will try & benefit from others,often known as the opportunists who don't look in to the future as far as tomorrow morning

theres about 50 different definitions,I'm not gonna sit here & type all night!
 
Let me ask you this fellow "tard"...what in your opinion will be the most beneficial criteria for expanding the Utah mule deer herd to where the hunters would be happy along with the overall general health of the herd..........and......the upper mucky mucks in charge are smiling?
 
Let me tell you this.........
Expanding the Mule Deer herd in just numbers is not the only problem if you're asking me,I'd like to see some Quality in the Herds as well.
As I've said a billion times:
You can't satisfy every Tard in the state,so why the Hell try?
Not every Tard in the State can Hunt trophy Bucks & Bulls every year in the state!
Too many Tards for the amount of Trophy animals!

There are many ways to expand the herd,it will take major change,change that most Tards would not allow because they want to kill a "MILK ON THE LIPP" buck every year!
 
I agree, expanding the herd in just numbers is NOT the only problem. Quality animals would be nice for sure. And as for satifying every "tard" in the state: ie. "you"...."me" and anyone else who lives here...it will not happen, for sure. But, do I want to try to just satisfy the "few" "tards" that want the ultimate antlers? Nope. Never. Sooooo... since "not every tard in the state can hunt TROPHY animals"... what is it exactly you are proposing?
 
By the way, I agree, too many hunters will kill the first animal that is legal they see. But I wonder, why is that? Because they know there is nothing better that will come along? Or are they just out for blood?....so to speak?
 
Well,
I'd have a few different types of hunts.

Trophy/Draw hunts/Units with a Pre-Numpt stating people like hoytme & his followers can't interfere with these Trophy/Quality hunts at all.

Average Tard hunts/Units letting the average "Joe-Blow" such as hoytme & his followers,let hoytme & his bunch set the standards/age objectives for these hunts ONLY!

There'd be some Youth hunts/Units with all Qualities of animals within the units.

There'd be some Quality Disabled Hunts/Units,not alot,but enough to give Our disabled sportsmen a good chance.

Tags/Permits would be cut,but by GAWD when somebody did get a permit they'd enjoy a Quality hunt!
 
kewl beans "lulu", me too. Sooo, you gonna put forth your input to my last question? Have read many of your posts, and look forward to your response.... That is, if it isn't hyperpoble that you don't have "time" for...
 
Sorry, am a bit senile. Just re-read one of your posts. So itis your contention that most "tards" = "you+me" want to kill ANY buck just off the teet? please correct me if I am wrong...
 
Pretty good post there bud....agree with much some not. It is a tough road to hoe for sure. I certainly hope we can come up with a solution that works....
 
Well I don't know about you?
But no,Hell no,I have no desire to take just "any Buck"
I'll hunt less often but have a decent chance at a decent buck even if it means me only pulling a tag every few years.

But that's just me!

Agreed,most tards are happy with any buck,have units for them types,when they hunt their own units out don't let them invade better units just because they destroyed their own units with their own piss poor management!
 
Bring in whitetails and cornflingers


Bess full cans???








******************************************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
wiley,
Nobody has throwed me any full ones lately.
Glad I'm not down to pickin up bottles though,I'm seeing alot of Mt Dew & Gatorade bottles that are still full!
 
Sunday ISE??

All of those Gatorade bottles aren't "LIME"




******************************************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
I've got to got to the Wasatch Saturday wiley so I won't be there on Sunday!
Lay the Bow down will ya?
Competition shoot or what?

Ya I know,I've been Wiened off the DEW,so all these FREE DEW's laying along the roadsides have actually helped me kick the habit,GAWD I was desperate one day having a DEW WITHDRAWL and right in front of me lay a full DEW,you're right wiley,it ain't all lime!
 
When did general season deer units stop being for the general public? Just wondering, because by managing general season units for 'trophy' status you would no longer be managing for the general public. I am perplexed Bessy, you say you want me to start my own elk units and leave 'yours' alone, and then turn around and want to take the general public deer units away from the general public and make them 'your' units. Can you explain?
 
Pay attention Pro,
I ain't taking nothing from nobody!
The Deer herds could be better throughout the state Pro!
But thanks to the good ole opportunists(You Pro) lets just keep the whole state a general hunt throughout the state & lets see if it improves,hasn't for 37 years,let's see if it improves in the next 37 years with the same ole piss poor management & over hunted regions!
 
Just to clarify this for Pro!
Everybody would have equal opportunity!!!
It may not be a Guaranteed tag every year(The part you just can't stand or understand)
Yes it would be managed differently than the last 37 years!
And no,feather flippers wouldn't be handed all they're screaming for!
It would be fair throughout!
 
Stillhunter said, "dang sage, you should get out more..."

in his next post he says, "yep, just as I thought.....dweeb"


Urban Dictionary: dweeb
dweeb nerd dork geek loser idiot tool stupid lame jerk moron ass donkey doofus nerdy crackerhonkey fag uncool jackass white donkey spaz white men can't jump ...


So stillhunter, what's your problem with MY opinion?

Joey
 
Equal opportunity to sit home and not hunt. Brilliant!

You are still mistaking 'trophy' status with the health of the herd. The Books are close to your house, so you have a perfect example right smack in front of you to learn from. The herd has NOT increased in population since going to limited entry, so where do you get the idea that it would help the deer herds everywhere else?

As for your comments about not catering to archers, the mindset of weapon type versus weapon type is a major part of the problem. Weapons are just a tool to manage the male segment of the deer/elk herds. The percentage of weapon type allotment will directly determine the number of permits that can be issued to achieve stated objectives. If we can get past the rifle vs muzzy vs bow, and focus on the HEALTH of the herd, we may be able to get somewhere.
 
I have nothing against feather flippers,they should get their piece of the pie,guess you still don't think they've got their share yet?

Think about it Pro?
Why do you think numbers are down in the Book Cliffs?
That place is like a f'n zoo and on average 24" Bucks are shot!
They get to a whoppin 3-1/2 years old & they Die!
Tell me Pro,you know everything?
They shot the Lions out of the Book Cliffs that everybody was screaming about,did the deer herd increase,hell no!

I swear to GAWD Pro if they turned you loose with what big game is left in Utah you wouldn't have one damn animal left in 3 years!
 
Are you saying they issue too many permits on the Book Cliffs? And if so, are you saying you want the general season areas restricted more than the Books currently are?
 
Folks,
Sorry for not following up sooner. I believe I can broaden this discussion with additional information regarding concerns that have been expressed to do with managing hunters and improving the health and viability of our deer herd. Hunting has a huge amount to do with why our herds are they way they are, how they got to where they are and what needs to be done to get them back on track.

I sent about 10 hours putting my beliefs regarding this matter together about 6 months ago and it's on another computer that I don't have access to this evening.

As has been painfully clear I'm no master of seven sentence solutions and I stayed up so late last night I'm far too spent to try to recreate any sort of cohesive argument regarding the problem and the solution tonight. Not expecting to change anyone's mind but I've been collecting information on mule deer and our problems for many years, most of which has come from studying the animal in the field, studying hunter behavior, reading and inquiring of professionals who have done controlled studies that relate to the issue.

I would just like to offer one observation and then I'm off to bed so I can earn a living tomorrow and get something you might find interesting to put out here for discussion tomorrow. It is this:

Bart (hoyt), without reviewing the last 100 posts I think I remember someone mentioning you had been involved with the Deseret Land and Livestock operation. If that is the cast, I'll make you a friendly wager. "If the king of the world made you the manager of a 100,000 acre ranch in Utah (or any Western State) that included an under populated mule deer herd and the ranch included both a summer and winter range that had unused habitat, you could create a healthy viable deer herd, at carrying capacity with in a very few years, while you harvested deer every year".

With that, I'm off to the rack for some snooze so I can bring my A game tomorrow.

Thanks for your patience and your interest in mule deer and our hunting culture.

DC
 
There is a common denominator to all of the west's declining deer herds. Predators, Predators, Predators. As hunters we fill that niche. Not all units have a habitat issue. Or development or too much human activity. You don't think we haven't had dry and wet yrs over the last 80yrs.

Can anyone give an example of a unit anywhere in the west void or with very low predator population over an extended period? Say 20 yrs. Because these are the time lines needed to recover a deer herd. 5 yrs wont cut it.

You cannot deny the numbers. X amount of predators kill X amount of prey. Do the math on your favorite unit. Its simple enough to figure out cats keep the herds from growing. Throw the coyotes and all other factors such as winter kill and roads and hunter harvest. And you get your decline.

Habitat is a limiting factor. Not a declining factor. Starving deer are a sign of over capacity. And I don't hear much about that these days.

There are only so many slices of the pie. Some factors you cannot control. Like weather. Other you can like predators and hunters.
 
Some more thoughts on this great post.
1. What are the effects of hunting on the mule deer?
In theory, hunters should only take a surplus of bucks. Leaving plenty to do the necessary breeding of the does. Thus maintaining a fairly stable population of deer over an extended long period of time.
Does should only hunted when needed to reduce the population to keep it in balance with the carry capacity of the habitat. Killing does takes the breeders out of the deer population. For us to have the greatly reduced deer populations we see all over the west, SOMETHING IS REMOVING THE DOES. Way too many of them. Find the reason for the deaths of the female deer, stop it, and we should be able to increase the deer population.

(All the advances mentioned above should primarily only put more pressure on the bucks. Specifically the older age class of monster mulies we all strive to take.)

----------------------------------------
Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.
 
Once & again Proytme doesn't pay attention & doesn't listen!
What I'm saying(as I listed above) You & your type(Pro Followers) would have your own types of units(not the whole f'n state to yourselves to trash & thrash as you please)

If you wanna destroy your piece of the pie,GIT-R-DONE,just don't come BAWLING & horning in on other types of units that have had better management that you can't stand not to destroy!

I hear you theink you are a real 'Pro' on the Book cliffs now hoytme?
How much time have you spent there?
Yes they have issued too many permits & yes the age objectives/average age of Bucks being taken of a whoppin 3-1/2 years old SUCK,but OH BY GAWD the opportunity.
If they would'of let the average age of the Bucks come up a few years this unit would be superior to what it is now Pro,many disapointed hunters the last few years,but by GAWD the opportunity!

You (hoytme) need to get out of the house a little more often & venture to a few areas/units & check statistics out in reality rather than producing FAIRY-TALE number sheets & blowing them out of proportion!

The Deer Herds of Utah will never be fixed/managed right due to people like you Pro,you think there is a never ending supply of animals that can be hunted 24-7-365 you are very wrong!

You strike me as a person that will BRAGG about the DINK buck you take,a person that would FRICK the whole state up if you had your way,you couldn't manage a herd of coyotes without fouling that up,let's just keep managing deer the same ole way we have for the last 37 years Pro,you undoubtably would fit right in with the POOR management Utah has had forever on the Deer Herd.

I offered you & your bunch your slice of the pie to manage it anyway you want to,but you think it's your GAWD given right to control the whole state the way you want it,what gives you the right to think you should regulate the whole state in your own way?

Because you'd like to screw the whole state over wouldn't you?
 
This is the plain and simple, long and short of it all!
The thinking deer hunter should mature through three phases during his hunting life. First phase, I need to kill a deer. Second phase, l want to harvest a nice deer. And last phase, we must manage this resource so our children and their children can experience the grand tradition of good deer hunting. Quote from Rick Marshall!

Jerad
Colorado Hunting Consultants LLC
www.cohunthelp.com
 
BOY I am begining to wonder if all these guys that are complaining ever get off their four wheelers or out of their pickups. Listening to some of these guys you would think they haven't SEEN a 4 point in ten years. You guys paint such a terrible picture. You sound just like the doom and gloom Idaho hunters that didn't even buy deer tags this year because their deer herd SUCK. I was OK with it because I went up to one of their general units and shot 179" buck with a cool inline and had VERY little competition after hiking about 30 MINUTES from the road. I think there is plenty of opportunity in UTAH for guys that will hike and hunt hard, I THINK GUYS EXPECT TO DRIVE UP AND DOWN THE ROAD AND KILL NICE BUCKS LIKE THE ONES THE SEE ON TV.

That being said I would love to see it get even better!!!
ARCHERY IS THE ANSWER. MORE BOW TAGS AND LESS RIFLE EQUALS MORE DEER/QUALITY FOR EVERYONE>

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
MTQuivers,
That is exactly how I feel about California.
Tons of bitching about how horrible it is here, while the hard core guys I know get their good bucks every year on public ground.

Quote: Deersman

There is a common denominator to all of the west's declining deer herds. Predators, Predators, Predators.

/end quote


Agree with much of the above.

I spend a lot of time in north eastern California's Modoc County.
Historically the largest mule deer population in the state.
Deer numbers are way down.

In California, like Colorado the use of leg hold traps has been banned.
Fur prices are down and the state has drastically cut funding to the state trapping program.
Coyote populations are going through the roof.
Me & a buddy called in 17 in one day last month.
That has got to have a negative impact on the fawn crop.

All this is far cry from the mule deer glory days of the west when predator control programs were in full swing.
On the other hand we have elk herds like never before.
Remember when shooting a 300" bull was a big deal?
In the 60's & 70's elk were a rare prize, muleys were being entered in the books left and right, coincidence?

Lions here in California are at historic highs.
I'm seeing them in broad daylight at times.
With the ever increasing human population creating access into wild country it is inevitable that wildlife will lose.
Combine that with the ever increasing desire for trophy bucks and hunters using the latest technology, well, it seems like the perfect storm as far as the decline of trophy mule deer go.
Unless there is sacrifice on our part (who wants to be the first?) the age class of mule deer just seems to continue shrinking.

HH
 
MTquivers -Sounds like you had a happy pill this morning, reminds me of the WGF dept. big wig I talked to last year, when I complained about all the deer hunters in the greys river country, he said you have to hunt higher, I was puzzled and didn't know what he mean't, it would take a helicopter to get any higher than the crowds of hunters. It took a while, but then I finally figured out what he mean't.
 
So there are lots of big bucks in Utah? Ya just have to walk 30 minutes? Dang, I wish someone would have said something before now! I go hunting to relax...I'm not walking for 30 minutes. A bear could get me. This hunting stuff is too much work. All this time I have been riding the Puite trail back and forth looking for big bucks, and come to find out, they're 30 minutes away! Ridiculous!
I'm out of this sport!
For Sale: Hunting Website
Wanted: Oprah Fan Club Website

Just messing with you MTquivers. You might find a few good bucks, but there is much more for improvement.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-10 AT 01:29PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-10 AT 01:25?PM (MST)

What a lazy bum, you only walked 30 mins., hell thats still within shooten range from the road with some of the cannons these guys shoot today!! I'll bet thats probably all that your hunt lasted. If you woulda had balls enough to get even say, 45 min. off the road you may have got that 200" plus buck, ya know we have hundreds of them up here in Idaho, because us Idahoans are all to lazy and stupid, and maybe blind to see the thousands of deer running around on every mountain and desert in the state.
Its more about over all numbers in some parts of the state, not the fact that you were able to shoot a 179" buck in 30mins.
 
This comment makes sense. There are some good bucks and I'm sure leaving the road for 30 minutes or 60 will increase anybody's odds for harvesting one but the improvement is needed.

Habitat, predators, road closures, shorter seasons, less seasons, etc. But one thing for me at least that is for sure is I don't agree with Mr. Quivers about giving all the tags to Bows and taking them all from rifles. That comment tunes me out completely and without opening the debate of guns and bows you can accomplish any management objective with any type of weapon.
 
To be honest, Utah isn't as bad as some make it sound. But things can be a bit better, or atleast not continue to get worse.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
>To be honest, Utah isn't as
>bad as some make it
>sound. But things can be
>a bit better, or atleast
>not continue to get worse.
>
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com



As compared to what? Lumpy is right. I see a definite slide in the number of deer. In 1958 I hunted the Pauns (my first hunt) and there were a lot of hunters there that year and a lot of big buck - you see it was open deer season. I hunted the Pahvant range west of Richfield for years. Shot 22 shots one opening day with my old recurve (not proud of the fact I was a poor shot)at nice buck. Hunted 1000 Lake Mountains when the hunt was open to the public. Hunted the Henries when it was open to the public and saw terrific buck down there at the time. Hunted east of Ogden and by East Canyon.

What do we have now the Pauns and Henries are limited to the lucky few. 1000 Lake Mountain and Pahvant are nearly dead for mule deer consumption. The Northern and Central would be a challenge to be called fair to poor. The Southern is following suit with the others.

Aside from habitat I think two things are the main contributing factors:

Predators -- (Peay) made mention of the cougar problem where (UDWR) would not accept nor could they believe the number of cougars in one area (Nebo was the area I think??). I degree cannot and must not just come out of a textbook when it comes to game management.

Elk -- Before you scoff, please hear me out. Elk hunters and the the the other deer hunts move the deer off the mountains to the lower country where they are more concentrated in a lot of areas thus the corralling of the animals just in time for the rifle hunters. In just one old area I used to hunt the second week of the rifle hunt that would not hold even a track the first week now have most of the animals there even before the rifle hunt. Now back to the (predators and elk) conspiracy against deer. What do predators eat when they can't find an easier deer - elk, thus sustaining them through the winter where a lot of them used to perish. Due to the lack of being able to use poison, they now flourish. (Ya know --- I really should add something else to the conspiracy. (PREDATORS + ELK + UDWR BIOLOGISTS = NO DEER). Laugh if you wish it really makes more sense than you might think.

At the rate we are going deer hunting will be very good in Utah - THAT IS!! -if you are one of those very lucky people who can draw a deer permit.
 
First of all fellas I never said I hunted 30 minutes I said I killed the buck after a 30 minute hike. I went up to Idaho for 4 days total and 3 of them I literally woke up at 2 am and drove from Utah county up to Idaho hunted the morning hunt and drove back to Utah to work in the afternoon. In those 4 trips I saw probably close to 40 bucks on public land some of them from the road. I missed another 170" class four point and passed on several smaller 4 points. My friend killed a nice looking 4 point which I videoed for him on the same day I killed mine. Two years ago I took my wife on a general hunt in Utah and she agreed to hunt for ONE morning. It was her first hunt on a General Central Rifle tag. We woke up early and hiked about 1.5 hours in the dark and she killed a 173" buck with two little cheaters. I also captured that hunt on video. This year my friend and I took his 13 year old son on his first deer hunt. He plays sports so he had limited time to hunt. On the opening day of muzzleloader season we woke up early and hiked about 1 hour from the road and saw about 10-15 bucks. We had a nice 165-170 class buck at 186 yards but he couldn't quite close the gap for a shot. About 45 minutes later and after a very steep stalk he shot a nice 21" 3 point. (he actually shot the second biggest in the group because the 4 point walked into the trees) Not to bad for a first deer on opening morning. COULD UTAH/IDAHO HUNTING BE BETTER? ABSOLUTELY!!!!! But it is not NEARLY as bad as the picture some people paint.

MORE ARCHERY TAGS WOULD ALLOW GUYS THAT WANT TO HUNT EVERY YEAR THE OPPORTUNITY TO HUNT WHILE REDUCING RIFLE TAGS. DEER HARVEST WOULD SUBSTANTIALLY DECREASE ALLOWING DEER HERDS TO IMPROVE> ALSO WE NEED TO CONTINUE OUR EFFORTS TO IMPROVE HABITAT THROUGH OUT THE STATE. IMO


Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 

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