Long Range Shooting

Jazz · Jan 24, 2010

Maybe this has been posted before but I have not seen anything over the past few months.

I was wondering what others thought about the "new" technology and the growing number of advertisements, TV shows, classes that promote shooting big game animals at distances of 1,000 yards plus?

Just to get started I believe that these long range promotions are bad for our sport and overall leads to many crippled and lost animals. I would add that even with "clean" kills is the long range shooting ethical and are we benefiting our sport this way. I have thought that it would be ok for a disabled hunter to approach the hunt this way but if we are physically capable shouldn't we try and get a little closer?

What do you think?

Jazz

kingfish · Jan 24, 2010

I hate it!!!Don't watch it. I agree with you.

Magicman · Jan 24, 2010

Distance estimation/ranging becomes very critical at those distances. 25 yards could easily mean the difference between a kill and a criple. Another issue would be bullet penetration and expansion.

Frontier · Jan 24, 2010

I agree, promoting shots over 600 yds in my opinion is totally irresponsible. What happened to hunting? 1000 yard shots are for the gun range not the hunting range! I think that, The Best of the West, should be re-named, Idiots of the West.
If I can't get to within 400 yards of an animal, then in my opinion the animal wins. Just my opinion though.

AndymanSavage · Jan 24, 2010

What is this long range shooting you speak of?

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http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/

cbeard · Jan 24, 2010

I agree with Frontier...

slamdunk · Jan 24, 2010

Before we all go debating yet ANOTHTER long range rifle discussion, we need to even the playing field a little here.

Being in the guiding & outfitting world for 15 years, i have seen many "long range crack shots" miss or wound animals at yardages the next guy could easily make with a .270, yet can pop milk jugs at 1000 yards all day long.

Lets look at archery tackle-
Today's technology is allowing arrows to be launched at what is considered "long range" more so now than ever before, not too mention their season keeps getting extended to allow more days in the field....does that not equal more wounded animals?
And why does this topic never get argued??

Same thing with muzzle loaders-
I can shoot my Knight at ridiculous ranges for a front loader because of today's advanced technology. This equals the same chance for lost game, does it not?
And yes i have seen and heard of many lost animals from close range muzzies, have we all not?
Why does this one ever get debated either??

I am in the middle of building my own long range rifle and you can bet your booty that i will put many hours in shooting and studying this so i can be ready for what i would hope to call a "once in a lifetime shot".

Having said this, the argument and criticism of a long range rifle is a dead and worthless topic unless you bring all three into play.

http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/slamdunk_04/E1x1BWINV1-2.jpg[/IMG]

Jazz · Jan 24, 2010

I would agree that the other two are worth discussing as well but it doesn't make the first issue "dead" or worthless. I would tend to agree with you that longer seasons for bows or especially "rut" seasons for muzzleloaders aren't right either. Anyone that practices with some of the new technology can shoot 200 yards+ so it's like a single shot rifle. So now all three are open and alive!

Jazz

Epointer · Jan 24, 2010

>Before we all go debating yet
>ANOTHTER long range rifle discussion,
>we need to even the
>playing field a little here.
>
>
>Being in the guiding & outfitting
>world for 15 years, i
>have seen many "long range
>crack shots" miss or wound
>animals at yardages the next
>guy could easily make with
>a .270, yet can pop
>milk jugs at 1000 yards
>all day long.
>
>Lets look at archery tackle-
>Today's technology is allowing arrows to
>be launched at what is
>considered "long range" more so
>now than ever before, not
>too mention their season keeps
>getting extended to allow more
>days in the field....does that
>not equal more wounded animals?
>
>And why does this topic never
>get argued??
>
>Same thing with muzzle loaders-
>I can shoot my Knight at
>ridiculous ranges for a front
>loader because of today's advanced
>technology. This equals the same
>chance for lost game, does
>it not?
>And yes i have seen and
>heard of many lost animals
>from close range muzzies, have
>we all not?
>Why does this one ever get
>debated either??
>
>I am in the middle of
>building my own long range
>rifle and you can bet
>your booty that i will
>put many hours in shooting
>and studying this so i
>can be ready for what
>i would hope to call
>a "once in a lifetime
>shot".
>
>Having said this, the argument and
>criticism of a long range
>rifle is a dead and
>worthless topic unless you bring
>all three into play.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/slamdunk_04/E1x1BWINV1-2.jpg[/IMG]

+1 Slam

REDDOG · Jan 24, 2010

LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-10 AT 09:53PM (MST)[p]carry on

troutsniffer · Jan 24, 2010

Long range archery shots have been beat to death in the archery forum.

slamdunk · Jan 24, 2010

>Long range archery shots have been
>beat to death in the
>archery forum.

Well since we don't have a forum just for rifle hunting like archers do for their sport, it seems this topic gets beat up the most on an open "general forum".
Rifle hunters typically don't read what's going on in the archery forum, yet all hunters use the general.
We gotta play fair ;-)

http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/slamdunk_04/E1x1BWINV1-2.jpg[/IMG]

one_dryboot · Jan 24, 2010

LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-10 AT 10:40PM (MST)[p]If I didnt shoot 400+ yards I wouldnt have many animals on my wall. Just this year alone I have shot

Bear- one shot kill @ 510 yards
Deer- one shot kill @ 640 yards
Two Coyotes- one shot @ 700 yards
Cow elk- One shot kill @ 427 yards

And my not so good shooting this year

Deer-9+ shots 80-150 yards

If you spend time shooting and get to know your equipment long range shooting can be a great way to hunt. I always try to get closer but if I cant then at least I know I can make the shot.

I would say long range shooting by those that practice is 1,000 times better then those "hunters" that pull there gun out of the safe and dust it off the night before the hunt.

Most long range shooters shoot hundreds of rounds each year. They shoot all year long and they know there setup inside and out.

I would much rather have a hunter that is setup and practiced shooting, shoot a 1,000 yards, then a hunter that pulls his gun out the night before and says "well last time i shot it, three years ago, it was on" shoot 150 yards. More animals will be lost by those that dont take the time to shoot and become a better shot and it doesnt matter how close they are.

like slamdunk said, I am set up and if needs be I know I can make that once in a lifetime longrange shot on a monster if that is the only way to get it done.
Also shooting 8,9 or 1,000 yards makes 4, 5,6,7 hundred yard shots pretty easy.

wildarrow · Jan 24, 2010

"like slamdunk said, I am set up and if needs be I know I can make that once in a lifetime longrange shot on a monster if that is the only way to get it done.
Also shooting 8,9 or 1,000 yards makes 4, 5,6,7 hundred yard shots pretty easy."

"Deer-9+ shots 80-150 yards"

Hmmmm?

nickman · Jan 24, 2010

Long range shooting is a ton of fun. In order to be any good at it, you have to study and practice and experiment. It is a constantly evolving part of the sport of shooting.

Even 500 yards needs practice and it has been my experience, that most "hunters" who only shoot a box of shells a year, don't know 1000 yards from 350.

All that said, I will launch bullets at coyotes as long as I can still see them thru my scope. Where we hunt them, 2000 yards of open ground is no issue. I could care less if I have "spinners"..... as long as they can't eat newborn calves, I'm happy.

I am having a new 6.5-284 made as we speak, exclusively for coyotes....my first official 1000 yard kill is in the near future. I have hit coyotes at 600 with my 220 Swift and my 243, but a solid kill at that distance is not always guaranteed.

As a side note, to keep the ethics police HALF way off my azz, there is no desire in me to shoot a big game animal at even 500 yards. Simply knowing that I and my gear is capable of it, is enough for me.

And before someone else says it, I ain't shooting something that far away, that I MIGHT have to chase.

one_dryboot · Jan 24, 2010

Lol, I should have stated it was hauling a s s outa the country.

Hardway · Jan 24, 2010

wheres that piture of the guy beating the dead horse. This is'nt russia, do as you wish.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Jazz · Jan 25, 2010

Your right it's not Russia so we can discuss the "dead horse" tell it's rotten if we would like to. You can do as you wish. This was a curiousity to me and I had not seen this horse since I've been on so thought I would ask the question. I appreciate the thoughtful answers regardless of the opinions they represent.

HunterX · Jan 25, 2010

If you can't get within 500 yards of an animal then said animal wins and should live to see another day. Not have a piece of lead drop out of the sky taking it's life without giving the animal a fair chance. This is hunting ladies and gentlemen just because we now have the technology to consistently take animal at great distances does that mean we should? Where do we draw the line?

How about 100 years from now when they come out with a new hunting lazer gun with built in 5 mile rangefinder with the logo engraved in the barrel that reads "if you can see it we can kill it." All the hunter will have to do is put the animal in the cross-hairs and pull the trigger. But wait here's the best part after the kill the gun automatically tracks where the lazer hit and to retrieve the animal all the hunter has to do is sync the gun with your hover truck and just sit back and let the truck fly you on over to your hard earned trophy.

I know this sounds a little far fetched and crazy but I bet if you went back in time 100 years and told the hunters of 1910 what hunting was going to be like in 2010 they probably would think your a crazy person too and lock you up in the loony bin.

cjg_beef · Jan 25, 2010

I agree with what slam said. I think that more deer are wounded by people who dust there gun off every year for the big 'pumpkin-patch' hunt and never shoot it any other time. I also think that a lot of people buy a big 300 (or whatever big magnumb caliber you can think of) and nice scope and think they can start shooting 1000 yards but I think you really need to know your equipment, abilities, and limits.

Hardway · Jan 25, 2010

>Your right it's not Russia so
>we can discuss the "dead
>horse" tell it's rotten if
>we would like to.
>You can do as you
>wish. This was a
>curiousity to me and I
>had not seen this horse
>since I've been on so
>thought I would ask the
>question. I appreciate the
>thoughtful answers regardless of the
>opinions they represent.

no cry babies around here...ok?

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

cabinfever · Jan 25, 2010

Hunters have been slinging bullets at unknown distances since the rifle scope was first invented. IMO that is irresponsible hunting and results in a lot of wounded animals. However, if a guy is willing to spend the time and money to obtain the proper equipment and education to effectivley kill at long ranges, than I think he is a lot more ethical than the Bubba who doesn't check his rifle's zero before heading out in the woods to go hunting.

sageadvice · Jan 25, 2010

I've said it before, if a buck i want is standing around out at 500yds or a bit further, he better start running or he's in trouble!

Myself, i draw the line somewhere between 500-600yds. That a heck of a long ways and i'd have never thought of shooting an animal that far until rangefinders came out, were affordable, and accurate. I practice a bunch at those distances and have equipment that has plenty of accuracy and energy to spare.

I do believe 500yds is far to long of a shot though, for most guys "out there" to be taking. I don't have a answer to what can be done about it though.

Joey

cabinfever · Jan 25, 2010

nickman, i just finished building a 6.5X284 and it smokes. You will love that rifle. I'm getting 1/2 inch groups at 200 yds and 1 hole groups at 100 yds.This rifle shines out to 1000 yds. I guess that is why it's a favorite among F class shooters and long range hunters.Not sure if you have a load in mind but give the 140 grain berger a try.

REDDOG · Jan 25, 2010

mtmuley · Jan 25, 2010

Dog, You have too much time on your hands. Hey, you should do some long range shooting! lol mtmuley

Jazz · Jan 25, 2010

Hey Hardway why don't you just move to Russia! I'm sure you would fit in great.

Jazz

Jazz · Jan 25, 2010

Thanks this really helped! NOT

Jazz

mathewsman · Jan 25, 2010

Since we're on the long range shooting debate I have a question for all you long bombers. Have you tried the ballistic software programs out there (sierra, nightforce, etc.)? How accurate are they? Do you have to take a pocket weather meter that measures altitude, barometric pressure, wind, temp. to plug into the program along with range, ballistic co-efficient, and muzzle velocity? I'm thinking of getting the nightforce program for a p.d.a and putting it on my cell phone (windows based samsung omnia 2). That would be alot of fun to tinker with. Not trying to highjack the thread-just want some experiences and opinions whether or not something like this helps when attempting shots from 2 zip codes away. And about how long does it take from the initial range find (to the target) till you've plugged in all the info. and have your adjustment, make the adjustment, and execute the shot?

Prism · Jan 26, 2010

http://ballistic.zdziarski.com/#fte

This is probably the best bang for the buck, but it's an apple app.

With cell service you'll have real time temp, pressure, altitude, etc. Not to mention the app/phone can compensate for LOS angle, and calculate clicks for your scope in moa or mrad. There's also a wind meter application or you can plug that data in from a kestrel, etc.

out4elk · Jan 26, 2010

"Even 500 yards needs practice and it has been my experience, that most "hunters" who only shoot a box of shells a year, don't know 1000 yards from 350."

Just when I think i am doing well, I remind myself that I need to work with the range finder A LOT MORE.

This message was NOT sent via Blackberry

AspenAdventures · Jan 26, 2010

Learning to shoot at 1000 yards makes me better at 300 yds.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Buckjunkie · Jan 26, 2010

I am one of those quasi long range shooters, but I try to remain as ethical as is humanly possible.

I have a few simple rules.

1st - Can I get closer?

2nd - Obviously you must have a good rangefinder

3rd - Know your equipment. If the rifle I am shooting isn't a solid minute of angle rifle I can't rationalize shooting beyond 400 yards. I practice alot and test the ballistics readout to be sure it is accurate. Also, I will not shoot beyond a distance where my bullet drops below 1800 FPS. That is the lowest terminal velocity most manufacturers say their bullets will reliably expand. Otherwise its like shooting game with an arrow without a broadhead.

4th - Is the animal standing still? No one is that good.

5th - Is there any wind? Less than 10 MPH and steady.

6th - do I have alot of time? You need time to think and set up.

7th - do I have a rock solid rest?

All of these must be met before I will take a long shot. I haven't taken a shot beyong 650, but I beleive longer ethical shots are possible..maybe 750 or 800 with the right rifle/bullet and shooter combination.

I haven't lost an animal yet..jinx, in fact, almost all have been one shot kills.

My advice, If there is any question, Dont shoot. The quickest way to ruin a good hunt is to shoot something.

Epointer · Jan 27, 2010

>I agree with what slam said.
> I think that more
>deer are wounded by people
>who dust there gun off
>every year for the big
>'pumpkin-patch' hunt and never shoot
>it any other time.
>I also think that a
>lot of people buy a
>big 300 (or whatever big
>magnumb caliber you can think
>of) and nice scope and
>think they can start shooting
>1000 yards but I think
>you really need to know
>your equipment, abilities, and limits.
>

Read the story on page 13 of the new Muley Crazy (Fate by Doug Childs). Could of been titled "Dust off the gun, and lets go hunting".

Longbow6360 · Jan 27, 2010

Who sets the limit on how far I should shoot?

Here's my setup;
-338Edge by Defensive Edge
-300gr Siera Matchkings at 2890fps
-Cosine indicator/level on Nightforce 5.5-22 NP-R1
-Brunton windmeter/humidity/elevation/baro pressure, etc.
-Nightforce Exbal and Micheal Echiel program
-Leica 1200 rangefinder
-Harris bipod and back bag

Guess how far I shoot!

"My sickle has a boattail"
"hidden soles leave .308 holes"

nickman · Jan 28, 2010

Well, I wish I had all that stuff.

I just use tracers out of my '06.......but I'm running out.

Longbow6360 · Jan 28, 2010

LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-10 AT 04:10AM (MST)[p]"My sickle has a boattail"
"hidden soles leave .308 holes"

Longbow6360 · Jan 28, 2010

>1st - Can I get closer?
>
>
>2nd - Obviously you must have
>a good rangefinder
>
>3rd - Know your equipment. If
>the rifle I am shooting
>isn't a solid minute of
>angle rifle I can't rationalize
>shooting beyond 400 yards. I
>practice alot and test the
>ballistics readout to be sure
>it is accurate. Also, I
>will not shoot beyond a
>distance where my bullet drops
>below 1800 FPS. That is
>the lowest terminal velocity most
>manufacturers say their bullets will
>reliably expand. Otherwise its like
>shooting game with an arrow
>without a broadhead.
>
>4th - Is the animal standing
>still? No one is that
>good.
>
>5th - Is there any wind?
>Less than 10 MPH and
>steady.
>
>6th - do I have alot
>of time? You need time
>to think and set up.
>
>
>7th - do I have a
>rock solid rest?

BuckJunkie makes some very good points.

"My sickle has a boattail"
"hidden soles leave .308 holes"