lets stir the pot!

[ID_hunter27]

Since my antelope post turned into a point system discussion. Let's once again have a good ol pros and cons and why we should not have them talk.

I think the only thing there maybe should be a points system on is the big three but then again there shouldn't be. They've already kinda set up a system on that. I think the way we have it is fair as it gets.

General season opens in 9 days good luck hope I don't see a one of you out there. If I do then I know I am not far enough off the road

 

[dreaminbouthuntin]

Your implying the rest of the hunters are lazy and cannot hike as far or will not go where you go. So your subject header has done what you intended it to do, stir the pot. Congrats.

 

[ID_hunter27]

No not saying that at all. They could be 7 miles back and if I see them then I'm still not far enough away

 

[scubasteven25]

I don't think it matters what type of system is in place. I'll still never draw a Unit 45 tag without a lot of luck. There is no system that will appease everybody. I do like the fact that I get to hunt every year whether or not I draw anything. I don't like the fact that people from this state (I'm not native Idahoan) hardly ever draw tags to hunt their own state which they support with their own tax money. That is sad to me and if I was a native I'd be rather upset, especially if I haven't drawn a tag in 10+ years or however long it has been. I tend to lean to the points system because it might help the age structure by limiting tags. Just my 2 cents, I think a Unit like 39 could be phenomenal if it wasn't over-hunted each year.

 

[broomd]

No thanks, no points!

 

[deepforks]

this is the first year i have ever drawn a " hard to get" buck tag. put in and didnt get it on the first draw. there was one left over tag out of 30, in the second drawing, and i said what the hell. well, what do you know, i got it. like i said, this is the first difficult tag ive drawn. even before this, i have always been against a point system, even though it's rare for me to draw. bottom line is, we all have the same chance year in, year out. if you start putting points in the mix, you are giving an advantage to certain hunters....which in turn puts others at a disadvantage. dispute that all you want, but its a fact. nothing more fair then a complete random draw every year. i think we should be more concerned with management and turning certain units into 3 or 4 point only units instead of these ridiculous 2 point units....or putting quotas on certain units for certain years. there are lots of different management techniques that can be implemented/tried. just my ranting 2 cents.

 

[jetsled]

We need a point system!

"nothing more fair then a complete random draw every year."

Please tell me how that's fair? Please, tell me how that's fair! Born and raised in Idaho drew 1 tag, (100% draw odds)15 years ago. Other than that over 15 years deer, elk, and antelope every year, drawn 0. Yet I know dozens of other people that have drawn excellent hunts more than once, and a also know a few that have drawn more than one excellent hunt in one year. Bullsh*t! Dont give me this "nothing more fair then a complete random draw every year." Thats the farthest from the truth. I have out-of-state friends that have drawn 2-3 tags to my 0.

Let me make this clear, I am 100% for OTC tags for residents every year, so please dont turn this into an argument against OTC tags. My stance is the same system currently in place with a bonus point system, so the following year you have a slightly better chance. I.E. Nevada.
I do on the other hand 100% agree with you on managing certain units in the state for better opportunities, and more deer/elk. Numbers are just down, plain and simple.

 

[tworivers]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/random. I think definition 3. Sums it up. An equal Chance at a outcome, now Is there something more fair than equal? You can't win at everything whether it is draw ,raffle, or game. Get over it. We all have tags we cannot draw, over the space of many years maybe that changes a year from now? Freedom is not Free!
RIP Lil Bro' "Huntnfever"

 

[DownThePipe]

Some people consider fair as everybody gets the same chance to draw each year. Some people consider fair as everybody gets to hunt a chosen unit at some point. I don't understand the mind frame of the first choice. I hate it when people say you just walk further or hunt harder. YOU CANT walk further when you don't have a rifle antelope tag in your hand because you can't draw that species. YOU CANT walk further when you can't hunt a certain unit for elk without a controlled tag even if you live in the middle of unit and spend time/work and recreate there all year.

Because the fish is game feels that it's too big of a step to go to a point system, I would propose an intermediate step which is longer waiting periods after drawing. Being, if you draw a controlled hunt antlered tag for deer/elk, or controlled hunt any sex for antelope- you have to sit out 2 or 3 years until you get to put it in again at all. That would knock down the odds 5-15% for any given hunt besides a few of the impossible draws.

Another idea that I have been pondering lately is to allow for people to put in for only TWO species between elk, deer, antelope, goat, and moose, but retain the clause that says that if you apply for sheep- that is it. This clause would knock down the odds another 15-25% for a lot of hunts, however might increase the odds for mountain goat and moose- which I don't forsee as a huge deal but maybe some do. In Montana you can put in for every species every year- but there odds are impossible...

I agree with deepforks that the 2 pt. season in Owyhee county in ludicrous. I have told the fish and game many times that they should create a October controlled hunt with ~40 tags (for example in unit 42) and then have another 50 tags in November. This would allow for about the same number of 4 pts being killed but would not allow the casual road hunter to knock down a young deer. I would say that youth should still have an October 2 pt season.

I happen to be on the other side of a lot of you with regards to being able to buy an OTC tag. I do like that option and I guess I have need to try to have better perspective as far as seeing it from the average guy that only hunts deer 1 weekend out of the year, but I would much rather see 500 tags in a controlled hunt for unit 39 in October along with the early Aug 15 controlled hunt than have a melee of thousands of guys out there on every ridge in October. I guess the revenue issue is huge here, and also that people forget to apply for controlled hunts- but that's how I would do it. I think it's great that any resident or non-resident can buy a tag for a lot of areas, but most of the good areas are controlled which is why they are good- they actually get managed for quality.

Those are just some of my ideas, although I think ideally the Nevada system that I proposed earlier is the best because everybody is still in the drawing just with a legit chance to not get screwed like the previous poster. I mean, come on, the guy has never been able to hunt HIS OWN STATE for a quality controlled hunt. Unreal.

 

[Idabow]

I don't think we need a point system. I think we need a new fish and game.

Since unit 40/Owyhee county was brought up, i'll give you my experience. My family owned a ranch on flint creek years ago and we always deer hunted up there. I can remember one year, nearly 20 years ago when 22 forked horns were taken in three days by one camp. My dad told me when he was a kid, about 40 years ago you could hunt all season and be lucky to see a deer, any deer. they had the five day, 2 point only season for a long time and the numbers rose to what i witnessed as a kid. i can say that in the last 5 years i haven't seen 22 forked horns and we have access to some good property and we hunt hard. My dad told the fish and game officer at a check station one time how poor the deer numbers were and that they should shut the season down to 5 days again and lower the number of late tags. he said that it was not a quality/trophy hunt, but that it was an "opportunity" hunt.

Another problem with the fish and game is that they are not solely revenue based, meaning they get X amount of dollars every year on top of what they make for tags licences etc. if they were purely revenue based, they would be forced to manage the animals in a way to support themselves.

Last year while archery hunting elk, we talked to severaly f & g officers since there is an office in the unit. this one kid, mid twenties probably kept referring to bull elk as bucks... i just shook my head and i was so confused i couldn't even say anything. these are the people that manage our wildlife.

I went to a Mule Deer Initiative meeting several years ago, and in reference to the "declining" numbers of mule deer in idaho, the speaker told us that the numbers weren't lower but that mule deer had taken on whitetail characteristics. one guy says to him "well they must have magic carpets too because they ain't leavin no tracks either"

I think a better management system is needed. One thought i had was to change the OTC deer tags to something like elk. where you have zones and A B tags. I know for me, i can buy a regular deer tag and hunt from the 30th of August until Nov 24th.

if we brought the numbers of game up, we could have more controlled tags, but regardless if the draw/tag system changes i think we need to manage our game better.

 

[208JBB]

I know everybody loves the OTC tags, but it really limits F&Gs control over population. I was against the points system until I moved to Nevada. They do a good job managing their herds because they have to. They have to know how many animals were taken, how bad the winter kill was in each unit. If the animal numbers are down in a unit they cut the number of tags. Idaho doesn't have a system in place to do that.

I would say Idaho needs a whole new system/management. Go to all controled hunts even if the first few years its 100% success in the old general untils, but it would limit the unit hopping. Having the board set tag numbers each year based on the biologists data and not rummor could really change things.

Then again if no change from management happens then you will see the steady decline continue and you will run out of "further away". Hiking 30 miles in to shoot a buck sounds fun to me, but not to most.

 

[backcountryID]

I agree that limiting unit hopping would be a plus. I'd still rather see a limit of ONE controlled hunt application per YEAR before a point system.

 

[beavis14]

leave it as is

 

[BPKHunter]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-11 AT 12:34PM (MST)[p]Bottom line to me is that we have a classic too little supply for the amount of demand problem.

It is realistically impossible to improve habitat. Yes we can kill wolves which will help, but really mother nature and encroachment on wintering grounds seems to be the biggest limiting factors anyway.

So, if you want to go on good hunts more than once every 10 years for bigger than average animals, you have to play the tag game and pay a bunch of $$. After 8-10 years you may start to pull some tags.

I like the fact I get to hunt every year here, every other solution either 1) eliminates my opportunity every year or 2) dilutes my OTC opportunities even more. I agree that increasing the wait period to make it easier to draw is a reasonable compromise, but it is a compromise.

For those who look at a point system being implemented as a way to improve their odds, I say look closer at the math. I contend that as soon as you provide points, you will have a significant(50-100%) increase in applications, which drops your draw odds in year one a bunch. For the quality hunts, it will still simply be random for the first years like it is now, but what is a 8% draw like in 44 will become a 4% draw, so instead of hoping to draw in 10-12 years mathmatically, it will be more like 20-25. Then if you decide that is too long, you have to choose to take an easier draw like early 39 hunt after 5 or 6 years of building points, but will blow them all on that hunt...no thanks.

Maybe we can go to an A/B tag for deer, but again you are limiting opportunity, but maybe that is reasonable.

 

[Deerlove]

No points, but LONGER waiting periods! Three years.

 

[brymoore]

>No points, but LONGER waiting periods!
> Three years.


+1

 

[nitis]

Ok it seems as if most f those replying to this are residents.

I am not.

My problem with Idaho is I have to pay close to $200 dollars just to apply for a controlled hunt and if I do not draw then I am left with a license I really do not care to have.

Call me selfish or greedy or what ever there are only a small handful of places I would like to hunt in Idaho and none of them are general hunts. But by making me buy that license it is as if they are trying to get you to buy that general tag make you feel like you are already invested in it.

Another thing is even if they do not implement a point system why cant they make it so you have a legitimate chance at your second choice? or even add more than 2 choices like nevada. My brother and I have both drawn tags in Nevada on our fifth choice before.

What I am getting at is it is lots of money for really really long odds at ONE hunt.

Dont get me wrong lots to like about Idaho but I would rather go somewhere else if I dont draw my hunt or save my money for the next hunt.

It also seems as though it is the residents who keep shooting down the point system and I can not say I blame them os why cant they have a pont system for non residents? It would ehlp revenue?

 

[BPKHunter]

Do other states have point systems just for NR's? That may be interesting?

I would not support it if it meant anything more than what NR's are allowed now, "not more than 10% of the alloted tags".

 

[backcountryID]

ya but as of now, the NR's don't usually get 10% of the tags for any given hunt. Point systems usually mandate that 10% of the tags GO TO NR's

 

[wrt]

Ok just my 2. Leve all the otc tags alone but do a point system on once in a lifetime. My resanoing, I put in for sheep here In Idaho every year and will til I die or draw. I put in for mtn. goat in utah with the knowledge that after ten years I was almost garenteed the tag with my points, low and behold I drew as I exspected. Now with my sheep in Idaho I never know if I will ever draw but with a point system the ones puting in the efort to put in year in and year out will have a better shot of drawing. In other states put in the time then get rewarded here in Idaho put in the time and it may never happen. Just my thoughts on this one WRT

 

[BPKHunter]

>ya but as of now, the
>NR's don't usually get 10%
>of the tags for any
>given hunt. Point systems
>usually mandate that 10% of
>the tags GO TO NR's
>


YOu are correct, they are capped at 10%. As I have reviewed the drawings, I don't find very many times where any limited draw with say over 50 tags has not either met it's 10% quota, or come really close. If you look closely, the NR's typically pull the same % in the draw as they put in. For example, if a hunt has 100 tags and 950 residents apply and 50 NR apply, then typically 95 residents draw and only 5 or 5% nr DRAW. Not saying that is all the time, but usually. Check out the results for yourself:

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public...ookupOdds.cfm?start=1&species=deer1&year=2011

 

[nitis]

Here is what sucks as a non resident since Idaho does not guarantee any percentage of the total quota to non residents there is technically no guarantee that anyone will get drawn and since you can only realistically draw your first choice you can really be throwing money away for those hard to draw tags.

To me that is the most unfair thing to see 70-80 or 100 non residents apply and non get a tag not even one that is totally unfair'

No I have never heard of any states doing points for non res only but every state is so different why not? It will bring in more cash

 

[beavis14]

to the non residents........waaaaaaaaaaaa

system works fine as i see it. it's hard for me to believe people aren't drawing ANYTHING for years ? you are either putting in for very low draw odds hunts or are letting some putz at wally world or somewhere enter your info.

i want to hunt everything every year !!!!!! that is why i put up with the sh*t wages in this state !!

would be nice to come up with something for the trophy hunts though. so i guess i am a bit of a hippocrete.

 

[MichaelJ]

I like the draws the way they are. I haven't drawn a "really good tag" in a few years but I like my odds of doing so. Having anywhere from 8-15% chance of successfully drawing a tag is very great odds if you look at other states. Hell most of the quality WA muley rut tags have less than 6% chance of draw! A few of them are less than 3% chance...

Keep it as it is. Even though I do believe that some people have "lucky numbers". I personally know a family that has three brothers and their dad. They have drawn a very high profile unit for muleys EVERY YEAR they've put in except for ONE over the last 7-8 years... how is that fair? It isn't... but I still like the way the system works. Bonus points only screw the younger generations and I know guys in WA with 15+ points who don't draw, while guys with 3-6 points do... just the nature of the beast.

Mike

 

[208JBB]

I know lots of people who drew great tags in NV with no points, its still a lotery. If I was collecting points in Idaho I would have 9 elk points and 6 mule deer points, but then again I still hunted every year.

I drew a deer tag in NV on my first year, but I also put 90% and 100% draw odd hunts for my 4th and 5th hunts.

I guess we could just let predetors run unchecked and then not control the hunters for another decade and see whats left. I have little hope that my kids will have half as many deer to try to chase when they get old enough to carry a weapon.

 

[MTQuivers]

I am not from Idaho but I buy tags there every year and love it. I think that they should leave the OTC tags alone but on limited tags do a point system. Especially for sheep, goats, moose. Idaho Game and Fish is struggling for money and are missing out on a HUGE opportunity to make money from selling points (and a heck of alot more non-resident licenses and deer/elk tags) if they offered a point system. This money could be used to make major improvements in wildlife including predator control. I for one would give them my money every year for a point and many other non-residents would be willing to give money to idaho to get points for these hunts. I look at the 12000 left over deer tags and I know that many of them would be purchased if a points system were in place. Guys would buy the license to put in and pay for points and then be more willing to drop money on tags if they already had the non res license. Just my thoguhts

Jason Yates
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