Jim Shockey, crying? Whining? Or weaseling?

[hossblur]

As a small buisness owner all of what he starts with is true across the board, startup, maintenance, etc, of small buisness. The rest, is BULL*$&@. His buisness model was to live on money he hadn't earned yet, and now wants his customers to either eat it, or pay 40% more, "to keep the future of hunting alive".

I'd sue the crap out of him. How about you?

Jim Shockey on the Real Trouble With the Border Closure: Here's Why It's Not So Easy to "Roll Over" Your Outfitted Canadian Hunt

Canadian outfitters, who rely on American clients, have suffered devastating blows due to the unprecedented border closure due to COVID-19.

www.outdoorlife.com

 

[elkassassin]

And What Does The World Revolve Around?

$$$!

 

[hossblur]

And What Does The World Revolve Around?

$$$!

Can u imagine taking 100% upfront for a bathroom, then telling the customer for the future of plumbing to be bright, you weren't doing the bath, but keeping the money?

The freaking balls on that guy are HUGE

 

[DH56]

Can u imagine taking 100% upfront for a bathroom, then telling the customer for the future of plumbing to be bright, you weren't doing the bath, but keeping the money?

The freaking balls on that guy are HUGE

It's just an Easier Target to hit when he gets them shoved up his arse.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I think there was probably a better way to write the article. I had a sheep hunt scheduled for 2020, talked with my outfitter and we decided on the year 2023 to reschedule. The difference between my 2020 price and 2023 price I think was about 3 or 4k, so I agreed to pay that difference. I like to think people are reasonable and rational.

 

[roadrunner]

As a small buisness owner all of what he starts with is true across the board, startup, maintenance, etc, of small buisness. The rest, is BULL*$&@. His buisness model was to live on money he hadn't earned yet, and now wants his customers to either eat it, or pay 40% more, "to keep the future of hunting alive".

I'd sue the crap out of him. How about you?

Jim Shockey on the Real Trouble With the Border Closure: Here's Why It's Not So Easy to "Roll Over" Your Outfitted Canadian Hunt

Canadian outfitters, who rely on American clients, have suffered devastating blows due to the unprecedented border closure due to COVID-19.

www.outdoorlife.com

1) Who doesn't live on money they haven't earned yet. It's called debt and timed payments.

2) A profit maximizing business makes zero profit. Concept taught in Microeconomics relative to a firm's financials. This means the surplus of Profit = Revenue - Cost is put back into the business. Part of the cost is you as the business owner paying yourself just like everyone else on your staff. Very few business models have a full year of total revenue on hand to cover unforeseen outcomes. When a business loses revenue, it reduces staff. Hmmm...I wonder why? Maybe it's because the business is living on money it hasn't earned yet???

3) The client full well knew that all deposits and funds paid were non-refundable in consideration for services including rentals and consumables. Go ahead and sue, you may very well not recover the money anyway and be out legal expenses on top of that. The lawsuit will take place on Canadian ground by the way...

 

[brushcreek]

he brings up some good points. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask those with 2020 hunts to pay 20-30% extra, if nothing else to cover inflation.

 

[SS!]

1) Who doesn't live on money they haven't earned yet. It's called debt and timed payments.

2) A profit maximizing business makes zero profit. Concept taught in Microeconomics relative to a firm's financials. This means the surplus of Profit = Revenue - Cost is put back into the business. Part of the cost is you as the business owner paying yourself just like everyone else on your staff. Very few business models have a full year of total revenue on hand to cover unforeseen outcomes. When a business loses revenue, it reduces staff. Hmmm...I wonder why? Maybe it's because the business is living on money it hasn't earned yet???

3) The client full well knew that all deposits and funds paid were non-refundable in consideration for services including rentals and consumables. Go ahead and sue, you may very well not recover the money anyway and be out legal expenses on top of that. The lawsuit will take place on Canadian ground by the way...

RR nailed it.

 

[treedagain]

Funny that the client part was a couple paragraphs and the guide was pages.

 

[SS!]

I agree the article is poorly written and there's some misconceptions and bad examples in it. But a lot of great information in there that future for hunters planning a hunt.

1) Get travel insurance. You are going to another country. I know, canada. But its still considered international.

2) Read your contract. Then read it again. Have the wife read it. If there's something you don't like bring it up. You don't have to sign it until both parties agree to it. You can amend the contract

3) The act of god clause is used in the US too.

4) Support American. Plenty of Alaskan Outfitters. I know theres lots of reasons to go to the NW territories etc but for the many that just want a sheep or moose look at the good old US of A.

 

[SS!]

Funny that the client part was a couple paragraphs and the guide was pages.

Agree. I like his example of the $10,000 hunt. And how that's the vacation money for an american for 1 year. How many canadian hunts are 10,000? Black bear? Last I checked his moose hunts were in the mid 20's and same with sheep.

Full disclosure: A friend of my guides off and on for Jim Shockey so there may be some biased stuff in my posts.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Shockey was pretty much dead on.

 

[SS!]

Shockey was pretty much dead on.

I agree with a lot of of it but a lot of is was smoke and mirrors and misconceptions.

Why didn't he use a 25,000 rouge river moose hunt as an example of a hunt instead of 10,000?

And who's operating as an outfitter shooting for 10% profit on a hunt? Thats BS. Its disrespectful and talking down to say that. A seasonal business that is shooting for 10% profit?

There should be no govt handouts for businesses due to covid. Covid would of been a good check and balance to get some of the poorly ran businesses gone.

There is no outfitter in Canada big enough to have a full time bookkeeper. And how much does your accountant charge for a business? My business it was 5,000 last year to have the accountant do our taxes. We are not seasonal, we are full time 365 days a year. All his seasonal employees were not sitting there waiting for the borders to open. They knew it wasn't going to open. Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

I agree with a lot of of it but a lot of is was smoke and mirrors and misconceptions.

Why didn't he use a 25,000 rouge river moose hunt as an example of a hunt instead of 10,000?

And who's operating as an outfitter shooting for 10% profit on a hunt? Thats BS. Its disrespectful and talking down to say that. A seasonal business that is shooting for 10% profit?

There should be no govt handouts for businesses due to covid. Covid would of been a good check and balance to get some of the poorly ran businesses gone.

There is no outfitter in Canada big enough to have a full time bookkeeper. And how much does your accountant charge for a business? My business it was 5,000 last year to have the accountant do our taxes. We are not seasonal, we are full time 365 days a year. All his seasonal employees were not sitting there waiting for the borders to open. They knew it wasn't going to open. Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors.

All minor nits to the general gist of the situation & his article, IMO.

 

[SS!]

All minor nits to the general gist of the situation & his article, IMO.

Well i guess they don't have to get a job the other 8 months out of the year since they took the american dollars and ran....

 

[hossblur]

1) Who doesn't live on money they haven't earned yet. It's called debt and timed payments.

2) A profit maximizing business makes zero profit. Concept taught in Microeconomics relative to a firm's financials. This means the surplus of Profit = Revenue - Cost is put back into the business. Part of the cost is you as the business owner paying yourself just like everyone else on your staff. Very few business models have a full year of total revenue on hand to cover unforeseen outcomes. When a business loses revenue, it reduces staff. Hmmm...I wonder why? Maybe it's because the business is living on money it hasn't earned yet???

3) The client full well knew that all deposits and funds paid were non-refundable in consideration for services including rentals and consumables. Go ahead and sue, you may very well not recover the money anyway and be out legal expenses on top of that. The lawsuit will take place on Canadian ground by the way...

In the real world, not college economics class, the owner doesn't get paid, or take a salary until after ALL costs are covered. Also, since Shockey spent 2pages explaining his "costs", I'd want receipts, for the specific expenses he used for my specific hunt. Flying Eva to the Expo, not exactly my problem.

Also, your correct. Farmers borrow massive amounts of money to front the following seasons cost. And The FARMER takes out crop insurance to protect against unseen. Not the end customer. Contractors have to bond, and have liability to protect against the unforseen. If a guide didn't have enough insurance to protect himself, then that's on the guide.

And his "inflation" post? So?

Sorry, but a reputable buisness would have addressed the issue a year ago, not wait until the border opened, then try to slip out.

Reality is, he should go bankrupt. Sucks to say. But in 09' thousands of contractors ate dirt, due to unforeseen circumstances. The same is true to guides.

 

[WapitiBob]

These clowns keep your money because nobody's put one of them into a hole yet.

 

[brushcreek]

some of the biggest companies in the world don't make 10% profit. 10% on enough volume is very good

 

[2lumpy]

Prepaying for a product seems like a rarely discussed form of investing. It’s paying for something you “hope” will bring a future return. We do it anytime we buy something on the internet or even from a local business where the vendor has to order the product, after it’s paid for. (Most local transactions are pick up and pay but not all.)

Prepaying for products always had a risk factor, we just don’t have them go south very often, that’s why we continue to behaving in those kinds of transactions........ but sometimes they do.

Our lives are all so dependent on the interaction and the lives of others. In many cases, “a lot of others” that we simple have to trust will hold up there end of the agreement, from the manufacturer down to the Federal Express delivery driver. 99.9% the time system works.

Humans are amazingly resourceful and when unforeseen circumstances happen, they all adjust and adapt and bend and flex and eventually we get a pretty good return on our prepaid investment.

On really rare occasions........we don’t.

Countless reasons can be the cause, from acts of nature, or incompetence or outright criminal behavior.

In this case it seems like some of all of these reasons could be at play. In almost all cases, there weren’t enough contingency plans invested in, by government, the vendor or the buyer. Contingency plans add to the cost of investment and most people, in government, business or buyer aren’t willing to pay the extra it costs them for the contingency. Almost all parties in this case gambled and lost. That’s the bottom line. If they had it to do over again......... I think they would all make pretty much the same choice they did the first time. We all gamble against the likelyhood of a unforeseen disaster, we do it everyday and rarely but once in a great while we lose.

The final out come will be, everybody involved is going to take a hit, some more than others. This investment, out of the hundreds we make, went south. Some will loose a little, some will loose a lot, across the board. That’s what happens in our system....... when a wheel falls off.

In many cases.... building contractors are backing out of contracts due to supply cost increases and or labor shortages. Some are pushing the buyer to pay more than the contract price, to off set the unforeseen increase in materials. Some will lose a little, some will lose a lot.

There’s a pending example of choosing to forgo the cost of contingencies...... the 2021 drought. We choose to risk the consequences of a serious drought because the cost of more and larger water reservoirs was too expensive and politically/socially conflicted. We gambled and lost. Some will lose a little, some will lose a lot.

 

[JakeSwensen]

As a small buisness owner all of what he starts with is true across the board, startup, maintenance, etc, of small buisness. The rest, is BULL*$&@. His buisness model was to live on money he hadn't earned yet, and now wants his customers to either eat it, or pay 40% more, "to keep the future of hunting alive".

I'd sue the crap out of him. How about you?

Jim Shockey on the Real Trouble With the Border Closure: Here's Why It's Not So Easy to "Roll Over" Your Outfitted Canadian Hunt

Canadian outfitters, who rely on American clients, have suffered devastating blows due to the unprecedented border closure due to COVID-19.

www.outdoorlife.com

On his TV series he shoots a Dall sheep right before dark and watches it go down. He tells the young guides he is "Training" it's safer to leave it overnight, in this steep terrain we don't want to risk getting hurt. The meat will still be great, no worries about leaving the guts in overnight... ?

 

[SS!]

some of the biggest companies in the world don't make 10% profit. 10% on enough volume is very good

I can tell you’re not talking from experience…

 

[hossblur]

On his TV series he shoots a Dall sheep right before dark and watches it go down. He tells the young guides he is "Training" it's safer to leave it overnight, in this steep terrain we don't want to risk getting hurt. The meat will still be great, no worries about leaving the guts in overnight... ?

To be fair he's never been my favorite to start with, so reading a guy who literally travels the world hunting cry that he's on the verge of financial ruin if his customers don't give him more cash upfront, is hard to take.

 

[SS!]

To be fair he's never been my favorite to start with, so reading a guy who literally travels the world hunting cry that he's on the verge of financial ruin if his customers don't give him more cash upfront, is hard to take.

Actually he didn’t say that. He was speaking for Canadian outfitters as whole…

 

[Tristate]

Did Jim Shockey just go "full retard"???????? It sure looks like he did. I've got to say this is one of the worst articles and examples of CYA I have seen in the hunting industry.

The article is hundreds of words of self-absorbed excuses to cover up a mountain of bad decisions. I would have thought it was written by a teenage girl after seeing the results of her "First Response Pregnancy Test."

First I must address the biggest eye popper in the article. The Americans who didn't pay off the rest of their hunt cost before the hunt ever occurred or even could occur are all now unilaterally painted as "DEADBEATS". That's right. No matter what was going on in your life, and Jim knows that Covid 19 didn't effect absolutely anyone else's revenue outside the Canadian outfitter business ,if you didn't send him the money he DESERVES, then you are a "DEADBEAT". Hey Jim, here's some friendly advice. Work some PR classes into that extensive overhead of yours and refrain from referring to clients in the middle of a forced economic crash as "DEADBEATS".

Second, most of the rest of this is what I refer to a series of bad judgement. And bad judgement has varying levels of repercussions. Lets talk about all of our bad judgement first. Decades of voting in politicians with feel good policies and focuses on security and government provided entitlement instead of liberty and self sustainability, GOT US HERE. Now the governments, that most think provide for us, will throw a boot on your neck and not think twice about it. Its like the suicide prevention specialist that shoots the jumper off the top of the building. Hey the guy didn't kill himself so job well done. So Jim go blame you, your kids, your dad, and your dad's dad for getting the government you deserve.

The next bad decision is called scale. When the big brother comes and shuts your business down for 30 days, YOU PUT ON YOUR BIG BOY PANTS AND ROLL HEADS. If you have enough savings, I MEAN SAVINGS, NOT PETER AND PAUL'S MONEY, actual savings, you can decide to float the company for the thirty days if you want. If you don't have the savings, YOU make that company no bigger than you and your wife again. Just like it was in the beginning. I know it sucks to have to do it, but that is the reality of being the boss. When the government says you get to have a viable business again then you scale back up. That includes your two kids. Yep, they are going to have to go get real jobs for a little while. Let them know nepotism can continue once the business has gone back to normal. If they don't like it explain the part about the government to them.

So you mad some bad decisions. Now what? What's the plan? The inflation factor is real. Obviously hunts that were $20k in 2020 are going to be $25K in 2023 easily. I don't believe it is unreasonable to ask for another payment to cover the difference. BUT YOU HAVE TO GIVE THE CUSTOMERS A CHOICE. The choice is you give them all of their money back if they don't want to pay the difference. Have you been put in a bad position because of Covid, AND YOUR BAD DECISIONS??? You bet. Have they been put in a bad position because of Covid and maybe even your bad decisions??? You bet. In the beginning you offered them a hunt at a specific time for a specific price. The time changed so it is not unreasonable for the money to change. IT IS GROSSLY UNREASONABLE TO ASSUME THE CLIENT SHOULD RECIEVE NOTHING.

If you can not cover the costs of the people whom you have provided no hunting service to then your business has failed and regretfully you should not continue in business.

Taking people's money with a future expectation of service or product, and no service, or product is ever given after the payment is complete, IS EITHER THEFT OR FRAUD. If your business model is to take money from one person to provide services promised to another previous person, whose money is already spent then you are committing a form of theft called a ponzi scheme. I don't know about Canada but here in America you will be prosecuted for that.

 

[littlebull209338]

I like Jim but he is a pain in the $$$$$. When he opens his video by complaining how tough it is to be a guide & outfitter I just turn him off. If everyone bitched about how tough life is we would have to get in a very long line. His operating expenses were about 50-60% spent before the hunt...fess up and work out individual settlements with your hunters...and buy better insurance for the future or GET OUT OF YOUR HIGH RISK business. I owned my own company for 25 years. I agree with TRISTATE 100%.

 

[brushcreek]

I can tell you’re not talking from experience…

Lol do you know what profit means? Walmart had net income of 14.9 billion on 5224B of revenue in 2020

 

[roadrunner]

Funny that the client part was a couple paragraphs and the guide was pages.

It's because the clients standpoint is limited to only how it affects them - not being able to go on their hunt and the loss of money from it. That's it and that's all.

The same part from the outfitters viewpoint is the same with any business that provides a service. Have seen it before in the oil and gas industry where customers ***** and whine like crazy not knowing what it takes to move a fleet of equipment 65 miles from town on dirt roads in canyon country in the middle of January to perform a 30 minute pumping job.

Personally, I think Shockey is kind of arrogant, but my experience is very limited on that.

 

[grizzly]

some of the biggest companies in the world don't make 10% profit. 10% on enough volume is very good

I can tell you’re not talking from experience…

Walmarts 15-yr Profit Margin is 2.18% and they never broke 3.5% for a quarter

 

[roadrunner]

In the real world, not college economics class, the owner doesn't get paid, or take a salary until after ALL costs are covered.

Then maybe you need to go to business school because you absolutely pay yourself as part of an operating cost. A business owner is still an employee of the company.

Good thing your small business is able to survive on your business model...

 

[roadrunner]

To be fair he's never been my favorite to start with, so reading a guy who literally travels the world hunting cry that he's on the verge of financial ruin if his customers don't give him more cash upfront, is hard to take.

Missed the part where he states he was the one suffering. Pretty sure it was from a generalized standpoint understanding what it takes to run an outfitting business.

Just like the monkey's that cry when the butcher "stick's it to them"...

 

[grizzly]

Then maybe you need to go to business school because you absolutely pay yourself as part of an operating cost. A business owner is still an employee of the company.

Good thing your small business is able to survive on your business model...

I think his point is if there's no money left over the owner doesn't get a paycheck that month. But, if it's a good year, the owner may take a disbursement and give himself a "raise" for that year.

Bottom line is when the owner isn't living on debt... If there's no money, there's no money. It's part of owning a business.

 

[littlebull209338]

Novel idea....sell some of the assets, shrink the business and treat people like you would like to be treated. His outfitting territory's have some significant worth. Don't place the hunter at fault because of your business circumstances. Dead beat is a really poor choice of words.

 

[SS!]

Walmarts 15-yr Profit Margin is 2.18% and they never broke 3.5% for a quarter

Let’s compare wal mart to a Canadian outfitter… ok. So funny.

we grossed 12 million last year. If we were aiming for 10% margins we would of been broke. Luckily we aim for 35 to 40% for about 40% of our work and 15% for the other 60%.

 

[SS!]

Then maybe you need to go to business school because you absolutely pay yourself as part of an operating cost. A business owner is still an employee of the company.

Good thing your small business is able to survive on your business model...

Nailed it. You’re right, he’s surviving and that’s all.

We start the year 3.1 million as the break even point. That includes all insurance, vehicles, our full time office staff AND the salaries of the owners.

Nothing scarier than a guy that owns a business license and a few tools saying that macroeconomics and microeconomics is not real world. That is the real world. I see those contractors all the time at bid openings. Rarely see them after a year or so….

 

[brushcreek]

Let’s compare wal mart to a Canadian outfitter… ok. So funny.

we grossed 12 million last year. If we were aiming for 10% margins we would of been broke. Luckily we aim for 35 to 40% for about 40% of our work and 15% for the other 60%.

margins and profit are not the same - you are talking sales minus cost of goods sold I am talking net income

 

[hossblur]

Then maybe you need to go to business school because you absolutely pay yourself as part of an operating cost. A business owner is still an employee of the company.

Good thing your small business is able to survive on your business model...

Practical knowledge vs theoretical. Most small buisness lives well under that 2% profit margin. Most, are glorified employees.

If the outfitters go bankrupt, it sucks, they were hit by incompetent government.

But that's not the customers problem.


I see no difference in this case, and Bernie Madoff, a Ponzi scheme.

I'll refer to TRI, who pretty much covered it perfectly

 

[SS!]

margins and profit are not the same - you are talking sales minus cost of goods sold I am talking net income

True but we don’t know his net profit only he does. If it is truly 10% that’s not bad. I guess I was assuming it was his margin. It’s not clear in the article.

 

[Bluehair]

What seems to be missing is what it takes to be an outfitter in Canada. Unless things have changed, outfitters lease a concession from the government. At least that’s the way it was in the Yukon.

Of course that’s just more fixed cost in the equation, but not one that you can simply hunker down and walk away from. It may have been hidden in there, but that article was ponderous and impossible to make it through for someone with AADD like me.

And SS, I’m calling you out on 40% margins in the construction biz. If thats really the case, you are clearly building the guilded halls of Heaven. Mech/elec has traditionally had the highest net margins in the 15% range. The CFMA has volumes of statistics.

Why am I not surprised that SS is a contractor?

 

[littlebull209338]

Outfitting territories in Canada are bought and sold by the outfitter. True there are some requirements by the government but they are of great worth. I know the back story on Jim's Rogue River territory and the bucks were pretty impressive.

 

[roadrunner]

Practical knowledge vs theoretical. Most small buisness lives well under that 2% profit margin. Most, are glorified employees.

You do realize the practical knowledge comes from theoretical, right...?

Anytime someone starts a business, practical knowledge tells you that some amount needs to be set aside to live on while you generate revenue because theoretical knowledge lists startup capital as a cost (your saved money is your wage and part of the startup capital).

My "small business" lists my wage as part of the daily operating cost. That is why I know what my price point needs to be to stay competitive, which my wage is not very much. Problem is, my competitor almost gives services away because he is retired and does it for the fun of it and some extra spending cash so yes, it's a very slim margin.

As a business owner, you always pay yourself.

Thousands of businesses have closed the past 16 months that didn't need to. Most are luxuries, decencies, and services.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

margins and profit are not the same - you are talking sales minus cost of goods sold I am talking net income

Bingo!

Selling shirts with a 50% mark-up doesn't translate to a 50% net profit.

In my business of selling photos and/or articles, my margin is close to 100% but my net profit was often a loss -- at least at first.

Example: I sell a slide (old days!) to F&S for $50-200. The slide itself is worth about 50 cents, i.e. film & processing. BUT...it doesn't take in all the expenses for me to have produced that slide --and the rest of that roll & more -- perhaps 5-10 years earlier. Before I actually make a net profit, I have to sell several photos of the particular trip or effort to have made any money.

Obviously, the above is an early effect of freelancing, which tends to eventually 'catch up' so to speak. The same goes for some publications' way of paying three months down the road. That only hurts after the first few months because afterward the money is a continuous monthly flow -- just for something sold months earlier.

 

[grizzly]

As a business owner, you always pay yourself.

You've been very fortunate in your business. During the 2009 recession things got so bad that not only could I not pay myself, I had to pay the company's utility bills out of my own pocket. I stretched it so far the electric company showed up to shut off the power at my office unless I paid the bill right then. I still have anxiety thinking about that time of my life.

I paid every one of my employees every pay check, but I went a long time without taking a cent myself.

Luckily I was able to survive on my savings, many business owners weren't so lucky.

 

[Snoopdogg]

I like Jim Shockey in general and I absolutely did NOT read the article. Like Bluehair said, it's ponderous and I don't need to read all of it to understand he's calling folks deadbeats for services not performed and basically saying FU if you don't come up with more.

And you folks talking economics, macro and micro incomes, profit/loss and the Theory of Relativity are making my head hurt.

Can't we all just get along? Sorry, I had to.

 

[hossblur]

You do realize the practical knowledge comes from theoretical, right...?

Anytime someone starts a business, practical knowledge tells you that some amount needs to be set aside to live on while you generate revenue because theoretical knowledge lists startup capital as a cost (your saved money is your wage and part of the startup capital).

My "small business" lists my wage as part of the daily operating cost. That is why I know what my price point needs to be to stay competitive, which my wage is not very much. Problem is, my competitor almost gives services away because he is retired and does it for the fun of it and some extra spending cash so yes, it's a very slim margin.

As a business owner, you always pay yourself.

Thousands of businesses have closed the past 16 months that didn't need to. Most are luxuries, decencies, and services.

Generally not.

In my field construction, which is similar to guiding in the set up, most guys jump in for one of 2 reasons.

1. They see new trucks, and believe there is a 40% profit margin???

2. They want to control their schedule.

Almost ZERO go to buisness school. Most learn solely by bad experience.

Shockey has some inflated belief that he valuable to the future of hunting.

Reality is, if he lost his territory, someone else will buy it. Most likely a younger, hungrier, lower overhead guy.

No one would order a car, pay in full, show up to get it, and then give the dealer another 40% because "inflation", or forfeit they money and the car.

I saw the carnage of 09, personally. It sucks. It's hard to see, worse to experience, but that's buisness. If you don't want it, get a government job

 

[Bluehair]

I’m trying to decide if I care if another outfitter goes tango uniform. I’m inclined to say no.

 

[LIK2HNT]

Must be nice to hold people and their money hostage. Telling them they have to pay 10%, 20%, or more extra to hunt or forfeit you deposit which is usually 50% of the Hunt or more. How many people got a 10 to 30% pay increase this year?? Maybe I need to find a different career.

 

[littlebull209338]

I always felt that the deposit and payment were to protect the outfitter from losses incurred when the hunter could not keep the commitment. BUT surely not to enrich the outfitter when he could not keep the commitment for what ever reason. This is total BS in my old experienced opinion. I have hunted with many outfitters all over the world and have NEVER encounterd this attitude. INTEGRITY is the most valuable asset any of us have....lacking in this case ?

 

[roadrunner]

Generally not.

In my field construction, which is similar to guiding in the set up, most guys jump in for one of 2 reasons.

1. They see new trucks, and believe there is a 40% profit margin???

2. They want to control their schedule.

Almost ZERO go to buisness school. Most learn solely by bad experience.

Shockey has some inflated belief that he valuable to the future of hunting.

Reality is, if he lost his territory, someone else will buy it. Most likely a younger, hungrier, lower overhead guy.

No one would order a car, pay in full, show up to get it, and then give the dealer another 40% because "inflation", or forfeit they money and the car.

I saw the carnage of 09, personally. It sucks. It's hard to see, worse to experience, but that's buisness. If you don't want it, get a government job

Imagine how far ahead those guys jumping in would be if they had some understanding in financial literacy or basic business?

The intent of Shockey's write up is an attempt to "educate" hunters on what it takes to run an outfitting business in Canada and why an outfitter can't just give money back, or, for the same amount invested. Still can't pinpoint where he said "I"...

Part of the issue of outdoors guide services are that they are dependent on several things working out, weather being one of them. If a client doesn't understand that, and certain things are out of control for the outfitter, then the client shouldn't be throwing money at a hunt they really can't afford anyway.

How many GC's are willing to stick to their bid on a house from 8 months ago when a sheet of OSB was $30 and is now $130? Zippo. If they can, they have been at it a while and have some disposable capital, but it will certainly be recovered on the next bid....

 

[SS!]

You've been very fortunate in your business. During the 2009 recession things got so bad that not only could I not pay myself, I had to pay the company's utility bills out of my own pocket. I stretched it so far the electric company showed up to shut off the power at my office unless I paid the bill right then. I still have anxiety thinking about that time of my life.

I paid every one of my employees every pay check, but I went a long time without taking a cent myself.

Luckily I was able to survive on my savings, many business owners weren't so lucky.

Thanks for sharing. Just out of curiosity what type of business do you have?

 

[wildfin]

I have a trip for caribou I set up last year and was advised to get trip ins. I did get global rescue ins but not trip ins since it was only around 6000 but if I get there and cant fly in for 7 days that is to bad for me and it will be a 6000 dollar lay over. I am a concrete contractor and some times my profit is unreal and other times I need to pay to finish the job, I do not get baled out ever and if I didn't get enough for the project that's on me, but if I where shut down tomorrow for a year plenty of expenses would not stop and I would not be paid for them from anyone. I do like to see his shows and that money probably did not stop coming in. The oufitters of canada sure have taken a beating along with the clients

 

[deadibob]

some of the biggest companies in the world don't make 10% profit. 10% on enough volume is very good

show me a reputable outfitter with quality hunts that can operate on a volume business model. A hunt booking agency maybe, an outfitter no.

 

[hossblur]

Imagine how far ahead those guys jumping in would be if they had some understanding in financial literacy or basic business?

The intent of Shockey's write up is an attempt to "educate" hunters on what it takes to run an outfitting business in Canada and why an outfitter can't just give money back, or, for the same amount invested. Still can't pinpoint where he said "I"...

Part of the issue of outdoors guide services are that they are dependent on several things working out, weather being one of them. If a client doesn't understand that, and certain things are out of control for the outfitter, then the client shouldn't be throwing money at a hunt they really can't afford anyway.

How many GC's are willing to stick to their bid on a house from 8 months ago when a sheet of OSB was $30 and is now $130? Zippo. If they can, they have been at it a while and have some disposable capital, but it will certainly be recovered on the next bid....

The point of his article was CYA, when he starts shafting clients. His hope being to create positive PR.

I'm not real sure where or how you bought your house, but they aren't a moving target until closing. So YES contractors honor their bid. And YES now they are attaching riders for lumber. No one debates Shockey shouldn't adjust for inflation on NEW BUISNESS.

What buisness isn't dependent upon outside forces? Construction? Ranching? Farming? Everyone has obstacles, that's a stupid point.

Reality is, he should have liquidated assets months ago, shed employees, etc. Just like bankrupt buisnesses do all the time.

Or did you not learn about bankruptcy in buisness school?

 

[deadibob]

Im my opinion the cheapest and most painless way out of this mess is for an outfitter to either roll the hunt over less the cost of inflation to a future hunt or to give a refund to the client no matter how they have to rearrange their business and personal life in order to make it happen. Unless this outfitter is in high demand with all his hunts booked five years out then stiffing a client who has paid in full will likely put him out of business permanently within three years. Word travels fast in the hunting world and one or more hunters will let everyone know what happened to them. Most hunters do their due diligence before booking an expensive hunt and this stuff will surely pop up. Remind that outfitter of the future consequences his business will face depending on how he handles the situation.

That being said it is your responsibility to C.Y.A.; Most outfitters are flexible and contracts can be modified before being signed, make sure that the contract protects both parties. It is unreasonable for one side to bear all the risks. You can agree to put final payment in an escrow account, this is not an uncommon thing for big expensive hunts. Buy hunt/trip insurance or realize that you are taking a risk. An outfitter with any business sense would also have an insurance policy that covered them for unforeseen events like this. If an outfitter is unwilling to work with you in advance then keep on walking, there are plenty of other reputable outfitters out there to choose from who will.

Personally I don't like using a booking agent but the biggest reason for using one is times like these to act as a fair mediator to both clients the outfitter and hunter.

If you book an Alaskan hunt and spend the entire time in a tent due to weather the outfitter can't control that and that was your hunt, it happens every year but at least you were there and they put in the effort.

and last of all BLAME CANADA! ? ? ?

 

[Sierra]

Operating margin differs by industry. Successful services providers make much higher OMs than many other industries. Services providers typically do not have the sales volume to survive off really low margins. A successful service business with $20 million in revenue is likely to be more profitable than a company that resells $100 million worth of goods.

Owners of small business are the entrepreneurs/risk takers. In bad times, they won’t earn a penny but in good times, they earn all the residual profit. That’s the risk they take. The reason why they take a salary is for tax purposes.

 

[lostinOregon]

Bottom line is that this will affect his business going forward. I know some Canadian outfitters very well, and they are just rolling the clients money forward. Talking 10K, saying oh well, is a bunch of bull ****. There are a small percent that the money won't matter, but the average guy, going on a once in a lifetime hunt, won't risk that with his responses. The dead beats as he called them, could have been in the same place as him, lost their job, had to shut down their business due to covid and a myriad of other reasons. Ole Jim has plenty of money from all the years as a celebrity hunter. It was probably the first year he didn't make a large profit. Instead of eating the bad year, he sucker punched his clients, bad form if you ask me.

Rich

 

[Phantom Hunter]

Always sorta liked Shockey’s shows but I am not in the habit of using outfitters unless I really need/have to. His comments would steer me toward other outfitters if I were. To look at hunting up north!

 

[Bluehair]

Is force majeur even an insurable event under these booking contracts?

 

[Captain_coues]

It’s trying to be a convincing article. It would be interesting to know what other income he has that can be connected to his name or guide business. I know when he is on his tv show or YouTube, he is plastered with Leupold, yeti, and some muzzleloader and Rifle stuff. How much does that make him? More questions need to be answered. It sounds like he is Broke and I don’t believe it, judging from his world travels and powerful connections.

Hindsight would be good here. Knowing there’s no refunds, it would have been nice to book the hell out of hunts, maybe even lower the price to get the volume up and then just say sorry and use the victim card.

 

[roadrunner]

The point of his article was CYA, when he starts shafting clients. His hope being to create positive PR.

I'm not real sure where or how you bought your house, but they aren't a moving target until closing. So YES contractors honor their bid. And YES now they are attaching riders for lumber. No one debates Shockey shouldn't adjust for inflation on NEW BUISNESS.

What buisness isn't dependent upon outside forces? Construction? Ranching? Farming? Everyone has obstacles, that's a stupid point.

Reality is, he should have liquidated assets months ago, shed employees, etc. Just like bankrupt buisnesses do all the time.

Or did you not learn about bankruptcy in buisness school?

 

[yoteduster]

Of all the outfitters in Canada I would think shockey is the the one that could weather through this and make things right with his clients he's got alot more going for him than just the income of his hunts if he decides to stiff his hunters because of greed whatever repercussions his business and his good name suffers he deserves it...the hunting community has been very good to him over the years you would think he would do his best to protect his reputation...

 

[LIK2HNT]

It will not happen, but I hope people boycott any outfitter that takes someone’s money and does not come through with a hunt or refunds the client’s money.

 

[littlebull209338]

I read the entire article and was struck by his detail of how much legal action might cost and the uselessness of that effort. I felt like he was trying to scare potential legal recourse away. Trying to pre-empt if you will. If I had been screwed for $20,000 I would not hesitate to seek legal recovery plus fees. Somebody needs to take this on. Remember if you seek legal settlement it is going to cost him more than it will you. If he counter sues for fees that is a risk I would be willing to take.

 

[deerslayer88]

1) Who doesn't live on money they haven't earned yet. It's called debt and timed payments.

2) A profit maximizing business makes zero profit. Concept taught in Microeconomics relative to a firm's financials. This means the surplus of Profit = Revenue - Cost is put back into the business. Part of the cost is you as the business owner paying yourself just like everyone else on your staff. Very few business models have a full year of total revenue on hand to cover unforeseen outcomes. When a business loses revenue, it reduces staff. Hmmm...I wonder why? Maybe it's because the business is living on money it hasn't earned yet???

3) The client full well knew that all deposits and funds paid were non-refundable in consideration for services including rentals and consumables. Go ahead and sue, you may very well not recover the money anyway and be out legal expenses on top of that. The lawsuit will take place on Canadian ground by the way...

Actually this depends on where the outfitters located and contacts with the united states. As well as the forum selection clause if there are any.

 

[deadibob]

It will not happen, but I hope people boycott any outfitter that takes someone’s money and does not come through with a hunt or refunds the client’s money. because they will fear it happening to themselves.

They will boycott any outfitter that pulls this crap because they won't want it happening to themselves.

 

[deadibob]

The only thing I have disliked about Shockey in the past was that "HIS LIFE DEPENDS" on any product that pays him sponsorship money but I do think this article was beneath him and is a very weak defense and justification for Canadian Outfitters to screw their clients.

 

[Homer]

If I paid in 2020 dollars in 2020..... I expect to hunt in 2023 for no addition......

 

[DH56]

"Would the loss of one year’s worth of your discretionary holiday dollars affect your financial future? Will your life be different if your outfitter cannot return the full amount you paid? Or is it worth it to you if they require a 20 to 40 percent COVID surcharge to take you on the hunt you dreamed about—and that they want to deliver for you?"

So, what shockey is saying is that hunters should provide their own deposit as the "stimulus check" for the outfitters. Did the Canadian Government have a "EIDL" or a PPP program set up for Businesses in need that had a loss of revenue? If so did the outfitters qualify and submit their request?

 

[DeerHunter53]

As a small buisness owner all of what he starts with is true across the board, startup, maintenance, etc, of small buisness. The rest, is BULL*$&@. His buisness model was to live on money he hadn't earned yet, and now wants his customers to either eat it, or pay 40% more, "to keep the future of hunting alive".

I'd sue the crap out of him. How about you?

Jim Shockey on the Real Trouble With the Border Closure: Here's Why It's Not So Easy to "Roll Over" Your Outfitted Canadian Hunt

Canadian outfitters, who rely on American clients, have suffered devastating blows due to the unprecedented border closure due to COVID-19.

www.outdoorlife.com

Their business owners are no different than any other business owners.
Last year I still had to pay my insurance costs and all costs associated with keeping my business open. Rent, Utilities, etc.
Yes I had to take money out of the bank to make ends meet.
A lot of my competition fell to the wayside as their monthly obligations were more than mine.
Shockey should have sufficient funds with TV rights, all of the promotion stuff he does and he makes money on personal appearances.
So now they had the money and spent it and I'll bet it wasn't all on the costs of the hunt.
Suck it up Buttercup and quit your crying, pay the money back to the hard working Americans that sent it to you in good faith.

I would be fighting mad if this happened to me...... might have to make a trip up North to kick some ass and yes I would carry a big stick......

 

[roadrunner]

Actually this depends on where the outfitters located and contacts with the united states. As well as the forum selection clause if there are any.

The outfitter is located in Canada per the article. Seriously doubt international law would even waste time with something like this.

 

[sticksender]

The provincial outfitters are fully reliant on American & European hunters in order to make their business viable....past and future. That's not gloating of any kind, just the simple facts. I've done several hunts in Canada and hope to do many more ahead. Assuming of course, that we're ever allowed to hunt in the Canadian provinces again. But I'm gonna make a promise to myself and anyone else for that matter. I'll be booking only with those outfitters who took 100% great care of their foreign clients through this period of horrendous mis-management by the Canadian government. As best I can tell, the guy who's the subject of this thread is not one of those. He'll be getting my future business once a blizzard blankets hell.

 

[DW]

I'm guessing Jim will have no issues making things right with his clients. I think he wrote the article as a mouthpiece for the many outfitters without that ability. That said, if I were one of those outfitters, I'd ask Jim not to call my customers deadbeats when trying to help me.

 

[roadrunner]

I'm guessing Jim will have no issues making things right with his clients. I think he wrote the article as a mouthpiece for the many outfitters without that ability. That said, if I were one of those outfitters, I'd ask Jim not to call my customers deadbeats when trying to help me.

By deadbeats you mean the ones in the past that stiffed the outfitter by booking a hunt, and then backing out weeks before the hunt after all accommodations have been made on behalf of the hunter for the hunter out of pocket which brings the reason for a deposit in the first place?

A taxidermist will only make the mistake once of not requiring a deposit for a shoulder mount when they've finished the mount and it sits in their studio for 2 years waiting to be picked up...

 

[hossblur]

The outfitter is located in Canada per the article. Seriously doubt international law would even waste time with something like this.

I'd be curious, if he booked those hunts in the US, at shows, would he then fall under US law? Im obviously not a lawyer

 

[hossblur]

By deadbeats you mean the ones in the past that stiffed the outfitter by booking a hunt, and then backing out weeks before the hunt after all accommodations have been made on behalf of the hunter for the hunter out of pocket which brings the reason for a deposit in the first place?

A taxidermist will only make the mistake once of not requiring a deposit for a shoulder mount when they've finished the mount and it sits in their studio for 2 years waiting to be picked up...

Exactly how many accomodations do you think he makes 90 days out? That's his requirement for full pay. He isn't buying food that far out. Nor gas. Nor really anything. And failure of those "deadbeats" means he keeps 50% of the money, with zero output. That's pretty much straight gravy. And I'd bet he in most cases he resales the trip.

I have customers either back out, or push me off almost weekly. None are deadbeats. And I don't get a dime in advance.


There's a world of difference between a taxidermist who does the MOUNT THEN doesn't get paid, and a guide who really did little, and collects 50% before anything happens.

I read it a second time to see if I was being irrational. It comes off even more assinine. "Future of hunting", the dude is a tool.

 

[Tristate]

By deadbeats you mean the ones in the past that stiffed the outfitter by booking a hunt, and then backing out weeks before the hunt after all accommodations have been made on behalf of the hunter for the hunter out of pocket which brings the reason for a deposit in the first place?

A taxidermist will only make the mistake once of not requiring a deposit for a shoulder mount when they've finished the mount and it sits in their studio for 2 years waiting to be picked up...

Actually you would have to ask Jim that question. He is the one calling people who don't come on their hunt "deadbeats".

Second we he wasn't just talking about people who walk on a deposit. Jim collects %100 of the money before the hunt ever happens. At the same time he is crying about the problems that the outfitters face WHILE COMPLETELY IGNORING BILLIONS OF PEOPLE WORLDWIDE, even clients which walked on their deposits, SUDDENLY WERE FORCED TO DEAL WITH A WORLDWIDE ECONOMIC CRASH. But he doesn't give a damn what happened to them. They owe him money he thinks so they are all just "Deadbeats". His attitude sure seams like, "screw them and their excuses, I want money."

I don't think anyone here is saying Jim is being foolish for not offering deposits back to some guy that dropped off the map and didn't return calls and didn't pay the rest of the bill as agreed in contract. But once he takes %100 of payment he has to either produce the hunt or give you a %100 refund. The client completed his part of the contract. The outfitter needs to do the same. Again, he may be able to request an upcharge to cover the inflation or whatever extra bill he thinks is justified. No problem. But if the client says, "No. I don't want to pay more." Then the outfitter has a MORAL obligation to refund %100 of his money.

 

[roadrunner]

Actually you would have to ask Jim that question. He is the one calling people who don't come on their hunt "deadbeats".

Second we he wasn't just talking about people who walk on a deposit. Jim collects %100 of the money before the hunt ever happens. At the same time he is crying about the problems that the outfitters face WHILE COMPLETELY IGNORING BILLIONS OF PEOPLE WORLDWIDE, even clients which walked on their deposits, SUDDENLY WERE FORCED TO DEAL WITH A WORLDWIDE ECONOMIC CRASH. But he doesn't give a damn what happened to them. They owe him money he thinks so they are all just "Deadbeats". His attitude sure seams like, "screw them and their excuses, I want money."

I don't think anyone here is saying Jim is being foolish for not offering deposits back to some guy that dropped off the map and didn't return calls and didn't pay the rest of the bill as agreed in contract. But once he takes %100 of payment he has to either produce the hunt or give you a %100 refund. The client completed his part of the contract. The outfitter needs to do the same. Again, he may be able to request an upcharge to cover the inflation or whatever extra bill he thinks is justified. No problem. But if the client says, "No. I don't want to pay more." Then the outfitter has a MORAL obligation to refund %100 of his money.

Agreed, as long as all money paid is redeemable.

When someone is at fault and the agreement has been broke, money should be paid back. In this case, the Canadian gov't broke that agreement in behalf of the outfitter. Good luck with that.

To reiterate my previous comment (because many like to read only as far until they disagree with something), James Shockey is no hero of mine.

However, I keep missing the part in his write up where he is stating that he is directing his "Outfitter's Guild" to unit and stiff non-citizen hunters that rely heavily on tourist dollars based on a hypothetical case.

Reading the article for what it is, he is of course more biased to the plight of the outfitter 'cause he are one and knows what it takes to run an outfitting business in Canada where most hunters have no clue...

 

[OutdoorWriter]

I'm guessing Jim will have no issues making things right with his clients. I think he wrote the article as a mouthpiece for the many outfitters without that ability.

​

I read the entire article & don't recall one "I" in it. So assuming any conclusions to pin on him personally is reading something into the article that isn't there, even if Shockey is a Canadian outfitter.

 

[T264]

There was an outfitter here in Texas basically sending out the same type of letter to customers and potential customers last year. I have no sympathy for either of them.... These outfitters outbid individuals for all of these bigger leases by overpaying... with the intent of passing that crazy cost on to the paying hunter.....
I say KMA- these outfitters should have made better financial decisions.

 

[roadrunner]

There was an outfitter here in Texas basically sending out the same type of letter to customers and potential customers last year. I have no sympathy for either of them.... These outfitters outbid individuals for all of these bigger leases by overpaying... with the intent of passing that crazy cost on to the paying hunter.....
I say KMA- these outfitters should have made better financial decisions.

Ummm...free market economy?

Overpriced because people are willing to pay. Seems like the ones who made poor financial decisions are the individuals getting outbid...

 

[DW]

By deadbeats you mean the ones in the past that stiffed the outfitter by booking a hunt, and then backing out weeks before the hunt after all accommodations have been made on behalf of the hunter for the hunter out of pocket which brings the reason for a deposit in the first place?

A taxidermist will only make the mistake once of not requiring a deposit for a shoulder mount when they've finished the mount and it sits in their studio for 2 years waiting to be picked up...

No, he refers to "deadbeats" in his article as those slow to kick in the other 50%. And judging by the rest of his article I'd call those hunters the smart ones!

 

[T264]

Ummm...free market economy?

Overpriced because people are willing to pay. Seems like the ones who made poor financial decisions are the individuals getting outbid...

Not quite bud- he’s begging for dollars to help bail himself snd other outfitters get out of the bind they are in!

 

[hossblur]

View attachment 43865
​

I read the entire article & don't recall one "I" in it. So assuming any conclusions to pin on him personally is reading something into the article that isn't there, even if Shockey is a Canadian outfitter.

Don't sign your name to things you don't agree with. He penned it, Bob from Quebec didnt

 

[roadrunner]

Not quite bud- he’s begging for dollars to help bail himself snd other outfitters get out of the bind they are in!

No, you began with Texas outfitters and buying up leases and then passing on the ridiculous cost ti hunters and then switched somewhere?

Which is it; TX outfitters or Canadian? Choose one or the other.

And nowhere is Jimmy begging for dollars, maybe you can show me where he begs?

 

[Pinlard]

1) Wasn’t it the Canadian government who shut the border down? Not like the hunter was not willing to show up.
2) Insurance should have been had by the business to cover exactly this type of situation.
3) I hope every one of these outfitters that keeps their clients $ goes bankrupt. It will make more for the properly run businesses.
4) Wonder what inflation number they use. If the Canadian government says inflation was 5-7% and the outfitter is changing 20-30% to move your hunt a year?
5) Go ahead and raise your future prices. Eventually you will price yourselves out of most clients. Hunting will continue on even if Canada has zero outfitters. Might even be better for it!

 

[roadrunner]

1 - true
2 - true
3 - false
4 - well, whatever
5 - no, you don't want that

Or the opportunities as they are go by the wayside by the reduction in outfitters, the Shockey's that stay in business now form an oligopoly and price fix at a much higher price keeping the average guy from being able to go or the new outfitter from even entering the business.

Vengeance has its consequences...

 

[T264]

No, you began with Texas outfitters and buying up leases and then passing on the ridiculous cost ti hunters and then switched somewhere?

Which is it; TX outfitters or Canadian? Choose one or the other.

And nowhere is Jimmy begging for dollars, maybe you can show me where he begs?

LOL
No need for me to choose- they are similar situations. And yes it is basically theft of people's deposits.
Bad decisions have consequences- These outfitters sold services /hunts that they couldn't afford float if a bad market force entered the game. Now they want a bailout or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Deerlove]

Me thinks if he pisses enough hunters off they should go after his sponsors and "squeeze" him that way. If I were in his shoes I'd be afraid of that.

 

[littlebull209338]

Border was closed mid-March 2020....plenty of time to adjust ...he did not....poor choice. In no way are the hunters liable. His comment of "discretionary income" cracks me up...in a sad way.

 

[desperatehills]

I know if I booked with a Canadian outfitter I would hope to still get to go on the hunt some day.

I know we are all hunters so I see why we are sticking up for the clients and bashing the guides. To every difficult problem there is a easy answer that is usually wrong. So I will be the first to say it.

You signed up to go on a outfitted hunt. The guide did everything needed for you to go on the hunt but you could not make it to camp. Outfitter did not close the boarder nor did he start the pandemic. Why should the outfitter bare all the cost? Maybe the hunters should think about suing wuhan or the Canadian government for closing the boarder.

At this point the hunters can only hope that their outfitter has a conscience and they can find a middle ground compromise that works for both parties

 

[2lumpy]

Not looking good for the Canadian outfitting industry again this year. Just because we all think the government is going to start behaving responsibly doesn’t mean it will:

“ Non-essential travel between the U.S. and Canada will be banned for another month despite mounting pressure from businesses to ease COVID-19 travel restrictions.

Justin Trudeau’s border chief announced an extension of the current border rules until at least July 21 in a tweet Friday morning. The world’s longest undefended border has been closed to most travel since March 2020, when it was shut in an effort to stop the spread of the coronavirus.”

 

[SS!]

I hope my dall sheep hunt happens this year. It’s a 15 min drive from my house. ?. Piss off jim shockey! ???

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Don't sign your name to things you don't agree with. He penned it, Bob from Quebec didnt

Nonsense. I've written many articles on topics I didn't agree with and others on those I did agree with. That's a task many writers/reporters/journalists are not immune from doing.

 

[DW]

Not looking good for the Canadian outfitting industry again this year. Just because we all think the government is going to start behaving responsibly doesn’t mean it will:

“ Non-essential travel between the U.S. and Canada will be banned for another month despite mounting pressure from businesses to ease COVID-19 travel restrictions.

Justin Trudeau’s border chief announced an extension of the current border rules until at least July 21 in a tweet Friday morning. The world’s longest undefended border has been closed to most travel since March 2020, when it was shut in an effort to stop the spread of the coronavirus.”

And you can safely bet, when that hard lefty does finally open the border he will require proof of vaccination.

 

[deadibob]

View attachment 43865
​

I read the entire article & don't recall one "I" in it. So assuming any conclusions to pin on him personally is reading something into the article that isn't there, even if Shockey is a Canadian outfitter.

It doesn't matter if there is an "I" or not in the article. Shockey wrote the article of his own free will, it doesn't appear to be solicited from anyone, it is his opinion so it is absolutely "pinned to him personally".

This article is going to absolutely tarnish his reputation and standing in the hunting community and the more that this article stays relevant and viewed the worse it will be for him. Probably the only thing he could have done that was worse for himself is to get tangled up in a poaching or serious hunting violation scandal.

 

[deadibob]

Nonsense. I've written many articles on topics I didn't agree with and others on those I did agree with. That's a task many writers/reporters/journalists are not immune from doing.

B.S., any writer who pens an article which they disagree with is either spineless or starving for money. Jim Shockey does not answer to an editor, he chose to write this and he owns it.

I don't recall reading any of your articles, maybe you could direct me to some of them for reference. I have quite a large library of the hunting and gun genres but none about Coues deer, do you by chance have any other books that I might have read?

 

[BrowningRage]

It's because the clients standpoint is limited to only how it affects them - not being able to go on their hunt and the loss of money from it. That's it and that's all.

The same part from the outfitters viewpoint is the same with any business that provides a service. Have seen it before in the oil and gas industry where customers ***** and whine like crazy not knowing what it takes to move a fleet of equipment 65 miles from town on dirt roads in canyon country in the middle of January to perform a 30 minute pumping job.

Personally, I think Shockey is kind of arrogant, but my experience is very limited on that.

I think the idea was that the client's history was so short and simple. There could be truth that it was just a rich dude who could drop $10000 on himself at a moments notice. I'm guessing that must be most of his clients, so he used them as the example.

But what if it's a guy who scrimped and saved for 20 years, setting aside $500 per year.? And that was in addition to spending money on his wife, kids, vacations, colleges, sports, vehicles, insurance, home, utilities, flood damage, wind damage, hospital bills, etc... Its an account that he sacrificed other things for himself in order to build. And when he cashed in, Covid hit and took 20 years of saving from him.? Isn't that side of the story worth a little more than 2 paragraphs.? Maybe.?

 

[OutdoorWriter]

B.S., any writer who pens an article which they disagree with is either spineless or starving for money. Jim Shockey does not answer to an editor, he chose to write this and he owns it.

I don't recall reading any of your articles, maybe you could direct me to some of them for reference. I have quite a large library of the hunting and gun genres but none about Coues deer, do you by chance have any other books that I might have read?

In your zeal to hurl insults, did you perhaps miss this part???

Outdoor Life: Hunting, Fishing, Gear Reviews, Survival Tips

Expert hunting and fishing tips, new gear reviews, and everything else you need to know about outdoor adventure. This is Outdoor Life.

www.outdoorlife.com

Far as I know, OL still has an editor just as it did when I worked for them 40 years ago.

Over my 50 years in the writing business, I never "starved" for money and retired quite comfortably more than 2 years ago. So I guess I was just "spineless."

I would offer to sell you one of the Coues books, but it was quite popular so we've sold out of them. You can probably find a used copy somewhere online, tho. As for my articles, you might find something in your vast library.

For reference of where you might look, this below from my profile on MM:

Tony Mandile lives in Glendale, Ariz. and has wandered the waters and woods for more than 55 years in pursuit of game and fish. During that time, he has traveled around North America to fish or hunt in 39 states and 10 Canadian provinces. He has also hunted and fished in Africa, New Zealand and Mexico.

Mandile began a part-time writing career in 1969 and has been a full-time freelance outdoor writer/photographer for 38 years. His 30-year active membership in the Outdoor Writers Association of America (OWAA) included three years on the board of directors. He has also served on the board of the Western Outdoor Writers (WOW) and the Professional Outdoor Media Association (POMA), which he helped create in 2005. He was a contributing editor for ARIZONA HUNTER & ANGLER magazine for 10 years, and spent seven years as the Arizona Editor for OUTDOOR LIFE magazine. Mandile wrote his book -- HOW TO HUNT COUES DEER -- with noted guide Duwane Adams in 2003, and the Arizona Game & Fish Commission selected him as "Outdoor Writer of the Year" for 2011.

More than 2,100 of his articles and 1,300 of his photos (50 covers) have appeared in OUTDOOR LIFE, FIELD & STREAM, SPORTS AFIELD, CABELA'S OUTFITTER JOURNAL, PETERSEN'S HUNTING, PETERSEN'S FISHING, AMERICAN HUNTER (NRA), DEER HUNTING, ROCKY MOUNTAIN GAME & FISH, CALIFORNIA G&F, WASHINGTON-OREGON G & F, ARIZONA HIGHWAYS, NORTH AMERICAN HUNTER, WHITETAILS UNLIMITED, NORTH AMERICAN WHITETAIL, OUTDOOR PHOTOGRAPHERS BIBLE, PENNSYLVANIA ANGLER, ROCKY MOUNTAIN SPORTSMAN, WESTERN OUTDOORS, BOWHUNTING WORLD, SOUTHWEST SPORTSMAN, SAFARI (SCI), ARIZONA WILDLIFE VIEWS, ARIZONA HUNTER & ANGLER, OUTDOORS UNLIMITED, several books and a few dozen other outdoor, conservation and travel publications.

 

[2lumpy]

I don’t have a dog in this fight. I can appreciate both sides and I understand both agruments.

There’s not going to be any winners here, like a lot of businesses, the big dogs get hurt the least, whether it’s the buyer or the seller. The little guy is going to get lucky or take a whipping, regardless if it’s the little vendor or the little buyer.

The big box dealers did well, the family owned mom and pop business lost their butts, as did anyone working for them, their families and their custumers.

Everybody, including Shockey, his outfitter associates and all of their suppliers as well as their clients aren’t hurting. Like the outfitters, their custumers are looking for a way to stay viable and keep their investment from going TU too. The clients/custumers are essentially doing the same as the vendors....... trying to protect their investment.

It’s understandable and it should be expected, after all, when everybody in the boat goes over board, everybody starts looking for a way to survive. It’s pretty damn unlikely that most people will hand you their life jacket and settle to the bottom without at least “attempting” to somehow, some why, to make it to shore.

It makes little difference about who’s a SOB and who’s not, when the house is on fire.

If the end result is a loss of goods and services and that creates a long term loss of opportunity, everybody looses and that means both the buyers and the sellers.

Seems like it’s better to try to work it out, some way or another because this isn’t the auto industry or the banking industry........ no government white Knight is gonna ride in with a sack of gold and save the day. Contingencies were passed over, so the only alternative there is, is to work together, as much as possible, to pick up the pieces that are salvageable and rebuild...... but....... next time, think about reducing the risk......and that has to happen on both sides, unless we’re willing to live through this again...... next time. And...... maybe it won’t be tomorrow but another tornado will come by eventually. Might aught to go ahead in dig a shelter next to the house....... or not.

 

[Gator]

Back in 2020 he could offered to refund the hunt money back to the client or roll it over for the next season hunt with him adding a clause that it would raise the hunts to higher prices if they can show it will cost more to hold the same hunt with gas, lic fees, travel etc.

I can't charge more on my signed contracts because Diesel jumped 50cents a gallon.

But I can put in the signed contract if steel prices go up by 62% and have letters from the suppliers showing that the contractor will pay the up prices.

 

[littlebull209338]

It would have been ethical to call personally every paid up hunter and explain his situation and try to reach an individual compromise ? Phone calls don't cost that much and most people want to settle differences...a win/win ? With the news that the border will not reopen until July 21 I expect many outfitters are going to go broke this year.