I've got a bone to pic.

Tristate

Tristate

Long Time Member
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Allright fellas. I had the TV on this morning and I wasn't really watching. Trying to get to the soccer tournament. About to run out the door and I grab the clicker to turn off TV and I realize somebody is about to do a long range poke on an elk. Ok. I've got 20 seconds to watch this. It ended up being one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen on television.

So I have done some background. The target shooter is Bob Beck I believe. The show is called Extreme Outer Limits. It's on Sportsmans channel. The show is set on the Zuni reservation. They are shooting elk. So they spot this elk walking in some juniper. Forgive me I didn't get the yardage on the poke. First shot I think goes over the bull. Second shot I have no idea where it went but not in the target. The bull moves forward into the brush but his back line and antlers can be seen. He shoots again. Not sure at what exactly but he let's it fly. The elk seems to react at the shot like he may have been hit. The bull travels right fully concealed by brush. There is some chatter between Bob and spotters over what is what. It appears from the video that there are more elk in there with the maybe wounded bull. Screw it. He let's another one fly at God knows what. He stands up after the shot. I can't remember his exact words but it's something along the lines of, "I could see a piece of something in there". Then he says, "I think I shot a stick." Then the BOB turns to the camera and says , "I'm pretty sure I hit him once."

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

He is shooting at increasingly shrinking targets after missing until he is slinging lead at movement in brush that he can't even specifically identify as the bull, OR ANY ELK FOR THAT MATTER, that he thinks he may have put a bullet in SOMEWHERE!

Just so I can be clear.

Bob, you are an unethical and unsafe shooter. You are engaging in an activity which is beyond your physical and mental capabilities. You are jeopardizing wildlife and the general public with your irresponsible self serving behavior.

Sportsman channel, do yall have any kind of filter which keeps garbage like this from being televised? If you don't, shame on you. If you do get aff your butts and use it before you do irreparable damage to our hunting culture.
 
If you watch these long range “hunting shows” closely you will see a lot of missed shots and wounded game. They don’t even try to get closer. Even if they hit the animal and it drops there will a lot of meat loss due to the “high shoulder” shot. All they care about is trying to make an extreme long range shot to show off and sell equipment. Disgusting to me.
 
You think that's bad?
Try a google search with "Bob Beck Poaching" . . . this guy is a real piece of work. But he has money, so people will accept his adverising dollars.
 
The long range shows are a joke. I'm not against long shots if a guy knows what he's doing... which very few do.

You want to impress me?

Sneak in on a big buck in the mesquite flats and kill him at 88 yards with a rifle like this client of ours did. 8 HOUR STALK!!!

20201118_160627.jpg
 
I believe he also owns MOA Rifles. It’s all about becoming a celebrity, who knows I will probably see you guys standing in his autograph line at the next Hunt Expo.
 
I feel disgusting and gross. ? Tristate and I agree again on a topic. This is twice in the same calendar year!!

On a serious note, I also hate watching these long range shows where the 800 pound shooter says he can’t get any closer and then lobs bullets in the general direction of the animal. Every now and again the bullet hits some part of the animal. Because these guys are using magnum custom built rifles, generally they tend to wound enough to actually get closer and finish the animal off. Of course this is normally done off camera.
IMO the worst actors in this game during their 15 minutes of fame, were the FMP archery boys. Long range archery where they show countless animals in the wieners and guts.
I’ve been a hypocrite in this area as excitement sometimes takes over the rational and reasoning portion of the brain.
 
So.... I'm old, and old school. I've always gone by 1500 ft.-lbs of energy for elk, 1000 ft.-lbs of energy for deer/ antelope. So, I've checked ballistics for my rifle/ cartridge combinations, and used that distance as maximum for that combination. None of my setups go beyond 500 for either animal, so that's the maximum distance I practice at. I'm too old and stubborn to switch to a more powerful cartridge, so I just have to hunt closer.
 
I just finished an episode Tri, he flew into Alaska on several different flights finally made it to the lodge and shot the camp Bear but he had his long range outfit hunting the heavy brush . It looked challenging
 
I've been surprised at some of the shots the show allows to air. Bob seems to be shooting for hair and hoping for the best. He usually hits the target, but not always ideal.
 
MOA guns make little difference (although I love mine, fun to shoot at targets) in real the world hunting situations I am in. I've never run across a handy cement bench with a lead sled conveniently available for an elk, deer or antelope in the back country. Usually, the weather sucks too, and I can't come back after the wind dies down or the snow stops falling. I've run across a couple folks in the back country who brag about their equipment and the ability to take 800+ yard shots in the field. I didn't get a warm fuzzy they had ever actually succeeded to match their bravado. Sigh....
 
1380 yards on an antelope? An MOA gun, at 1380 yards is a 14 inch group, on a bench, not accounting for the bullet's reduced velocity effecting it's ballistic coefficient which makes it much worse than that. Wow...
 
88man said:
I know I'm in the minority but wow the number of jealous vocal folks is scary for a free country
Click to expand...
I ain't jealous. My issue isnt with long shots. My issue is with clowns on TV using long shots to sell custom rifles to guys that think the gun does the work. MOA is math. Any monkey with a phone and an app can calculate ballistics. It takes time and commitment to get to the point where you can hit a pie plate 10 for 10 at 800 yards. I've met A LOT of hunters who had $3000 custom rifles and couldn't group them at 300 yards.
 
Everyone runs to watch what Tri is talking about and the Sportsman Channel says, “What’s the problem? The ratings are great!”

No, I didn’t see it. No, I won’t go see it. No, I’m not jealous. Yes, this is all too common. I’ve never had a problem with long range shooters who REALLY have the skill to do it. Too many go buy a fancy rifle with an expensive scope, twist the turret and let it fly, however.
 
Tristate said:
Allright fellas. I had the TV on this morning and I wasn't really watching. Trying to get to the soccer tournament. About to run out the door and I grab the clicker to turn off TV and I realize somebody is about to do a long range poke on an elk. Ok. I've got 20 seconds to watch this. It ended up being one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen on television.

So I have done some background. The target shooter is Bob Beck I believe. The show is called Extreme Outer Limits. It's on Sportsmans channel. The show is set on the Zuni reservation. They are shooting elk. So they spot this elk walking in some juniper. Forgive me I didn't get the yardage on the poke. First shot I think goes over the bull. Second shot I have no idea where it went but not in the target. The bull moves forward into the brush but his back line and antlers can be seen. He shoots again. Not sure at what exactly but he let's it fly. The elk seems to react at the shot like he may have been hit. The bull travels right fully concealed by brush. There is some chatter between Bob and spotters over what is what. It appears from the video that there are more elk in there with the maybe wounded bull. Screw it. He let's another one fly at God knows what. He stands up after the shot. I can't remember his exact words but it's something along the lines of, "I could see a piece of something in there". Then he says, "I think I shot a stick." Then the BOB turns to the camera and says , "I'm pretty sure I hit him once."

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

He is shooting at increasingly shrinking targets after missing until he is slinging lead at movement in brush that he can't even specifically identify as the bull, OR ANY ELK FOR THAT MATTER, that he thinks he may have put a bullet in SOMEWHERE!

Just so I can be clear.

Bob, you are an unethical and unsafe shooter. You are engaging in an activity which is beyond your physical and mental capabilities. You are jeopardizing wildlife and the general public with your irresponsible self serving behavior.

Sportsman channel, do yall have any kind of filter which keeps garbage like this from being televised? If you don't, shame on you. If you do get aff your butts and use it before you do irreparable damage to our hunting culture.
Click to expand...
Probably trying to put him down with a high shoulder shot. In all honesty, I'm not a fan of the long-range hunting shows either.
 
So can someone explain to me the psychology behind someone watching a s#!+show like that go down and deciding ,"I want to buy a MOA rifle"????

Is there some giant demographic of hunters ,enough to support an industry, that not only believe that fools theater is ethical and safe but they want to replicate failure themselves???????
 
I have used an outfitter in the U.S. twice in my life unfortunately one was an outfitter that's son guided and made much of his money selling long range rifles to clients.

The story: I really wanted to take a good aoudad in West Texas and this outfitter had a good ranch and relative cheap hunt. After I showed up me and 2 other hunters went to check rifles 100 yards ok, 300 yards ok, 500 ok. He then wanted us to shoot at 750 I refused because I don't have the desire or ability with the equipment I have to shoot at an animal at that distance. The guide 19 years old questioned my abilities, manhood and a few other things and then showed me a video of him killing a doe at 1200 yards on the 6th shot as his spotter call where he was hitting. He was proud of the video I was ashamed for him.

The two other guys were heart surgeons from Alabama they both had Gunwerk custom made rifles on their first hunt. They had failed at 300 and 500 yards to hit the gong but were happy to continue trying at 750 and then 1000. The kid convinced the guys that Gunwerk guns were just hyped up and not that good. He however made custom rifles that were super accurate. He convinced the "hunters" to use his custom rifle they both flinched so bad I'm not sure if they had shot very much. When I got back to the ranch house I told his dad I wasn't having any of the kid guiding me. The kid guide told me I'd have to shoot at least 500 yards to kill an aoudad. After a somewhat heated discussion he agreed to change things around and guide me instead. I had a pleasant hunt the next day saw a lot of aoudad and killed a 32.5" one, the biggest to date from this outfitter at under 300 yards.

The other guys were hunting desert mule deer and one wounded one early the first morning at 700 yards. They looked for it the rest of the day without finding it. I decided to go along with the camp in searching for the wounded deer the next day since I was already done and didn't have the coin for a muley hunt. While glassing for the wounded buck we found a smoker of a buck. The hunter that hadn't shot a buck yet was talked into going after this buck with the young guides custom made gun which he'd only shot the 2 nights before at the range. As we watched the stalk unfold the guide had him shoot at the buck at 550 yards when he was easily stalkable to a much more manageable distance for this hunter. The guy managed to gut shoot him on the 4th shot. We did recover this deer after a 4 hour trail job and a finishing shot. We never found the deer shot the previous day.

So I figured, these guys are going to be pissed because in neither case was it a clean kill and in both cases they used the guides rifle. I was wrong they were impressed that his custom guns would shoot so far, their words not mine. Before we broke camp they had put deposits down on his long range custom guns convinced they were on their way to becoming long range hunters.

The psychology of their thought process is what got me. Fairly young inexperienced guys but still they thought they could just buy an expensive custom gun to shoot better and become long range experts.

Disclaimer: I'm not against the guys that spend the time and effort and yes money into becoming proficient marksmen at fantastic distances. I killed my first deer 50 years ago and have killed at least 1 every year since, the farthest I've ever shot one is 437 yards 2 years ago in Colorado. I love to plink steel at 700 or 800 yards I've even wished to shoot across a canyon or two in excess of 600 or 700 yards at a deer or two and an elk once but have avoided the temptation as I'm not confident of a lethal shot. The behavior of the Bob's of the world hurt most of us more than we know because to guys that don't hunt Bob is the norm.
 
Lots of guys love to buy new stuff. I think of golf clubs and rifles. Some guys think they need new equipment to perform better. I do almost all my hunting with two rifles with scopes that are probably 20 years old.

I know a young outfitter who guides in CO and says most of the worst shooters are the guys packing $5k rifles. Just saying it's not the gear.....it's the guy.
 
I watched it I am up on the mountain. So I fell asleep at the end. Saw it was a five x six. I was wondering how much Bob paid for the hunt. Just your typical pay as you go hunts.
 
Tristate said:
Allright fellas. I had the TV on this morning and I wasn't really watching. Trying to get to the soccer tournament. About to run out the door and I grab the clicker to turn off TV and I realize somebody is about to do a long range poke on an elk. Ok. I've got 20 seconds to watch this. It ended up being one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen on television.

So I have done some background. The target shooter is Bob Beck I believe. The show is called Extreme Outer Limits. It's on Sportsmans channel. The show is set on the Zuni reservation. They are shooting elk. So they spot this elk walking in some juniper. Forgive me I didn't get the yardage on the poke. First shot I think goes over the bull. Second shot I have no idea where it went but not in the target. The bull moves forward into the brush but his back line and antlers can be seen. He shoots again. Not sure at what exactly but he let's it fly. The elk seems to react at the shot like he may have been hit. The bull travels right fully concealed by brush. There is some chatter between Bob and spotters over what is what. It appears from the video that there are more elk in there with the maybe wounded bull. Screw it. He let's another one fly at God knows what. He stands up after the shot. I can't remember his exact words but it's something along the lines of, "I could see a piece of something in there". Then he says, "I think I shot a stick." Then the BOB turns to the camera and says , "I'm pretty sure I hit him once."

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

He is shooting at increasingly shrinking targets after missing until he is slinging lead at movement in brush that he can't even specifically identify as the bull, OR ANY ELK FOR THAT MATTER, that he thinks he may have put a bullet in SOMEWHERE!

Just so I can be clear.

Bob, you are an unethical and unsafe shooter. You are engaging in an activity which is beyond your physical and mental capabilities. You are jeopardizing wildlife and the general public with your irresponsible self serving behavior.

Sportsman channel, do yall have any kind of filter which keeps garbage like this from being televised? If you don't, shame on you. If you do get aff your butts and use it before you do irreparable damage to our hunting culture.
Click to expand...
My number one complaint on this crappy long range stuff. This gives real hunters a bad name. This kinda of shooting is for targets only. Build some hunting skills up besides shooting. Yes practice at long range just in case you need it,but learn to get closer.
 
Cornhusker's story fits well with my experience. My two brushes with "long range" hunters in the field were not great either.

The first time was hunting in the backcountry on the BigBo ranch. My son and I were doing the late bull season. One morning, we had picked a large bowl to hunt, about 2 miles across, with a ridge point you could glass much of it from one side. I would take off and round the bowl to the far side while my son would take the ridge point, glass and stalk if he saw elk on the near side, or elk I moved while stalking around it. We were heading in at dark, pulled onto a rough 2-track road heading about two miles back where we would hike in. A large, lifted jeep with huge bright LEDs mounted to the top came flying up behind us a bit later. We were the only people around for miles. They got 20 feet behind me with those bright lights pouring into my truck. I decided to stop and let them know what our plans were, as they clearly intended to go to the end of that road too. After explaining our plan, they were clearly frustrated. He told me they intended to set up a sniper position on that point. "How far can you shoot?" they asked me. I said 450 was the practical limit I generally used. He said they were good out to 1500 yards, and this was their fav place to set up. I noticed they had too children in the back, maybe 12 years old. I asked how many permits they had (we had 2), they said 2 as well- those kids in the back! Deciding not to press further- just left on went on my way. They turned around.

The second time was a 20 year old guy shooting at an elk over 500 yards away, completely missing. I just happened to be 50 feet behind that elk, stalking it. He hadn't noticed me. After waving my red vest wildly in the air, he stopped lobbing bullets my way. He did feel real bad about that when I dropped off the hill and chatted with him- it was an accident for sure. But clearly he was not a seasoned hunter.

It left such a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sure there are hunters who can shoot long range who are both ethical and capable. I just haven't met one yet...
 
88man said:
I know I'm in the minority but wow the number of jealous vocal folks is scary for a free country
Click to expand...
Given its a free country, are you saying there aren't enough vocal folks..? If you're saying there are too many vocal folks, then you oppose freedom... think on it for a sec
 
Hunters have been loving bullets farther than they should since the inception of rifles, I don't think it's any worse now than it was in the past, you just see more of them on video now.
 
Homer said:
I was a big shot long ranger shooter know it all when I was young.....it didn't take me long to knock it off when my dad would make me march over to the spot and spend the day making sure it was a clean miss........
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Or chase a high shoulder shot for 2 miles through cliffs and canyons. Been there.
 
Whether close or far (whatever your definition is of "far") not every animal presents a shot. It's ALL about shot selection and shot placement.
Period.
I hate hunting shows in general so I have no doubt this dude is a clown.
Zeke
 
I like long range shooting. I would never try an animal past 400 yards. I’ve killed a handful of big game, all with rifles and they were between 50-125 yards. The farthest I’ve killed was a deer at 400 yards. This was because I was fully exposed and there wasn’t any cover between me and him, literally no trees or terrain breaks. I shot and dropped him and hauled ass to him as I was alone and had to get to work skinning him and transporting him to the taxi and butcher. The funny thing is that he wasn’t alone. There were 4 other bucks with him and when I reached him, they stood 50 yards away staring at me for a few minutes. I probably could have rushed in for a closer shot.
 
I agree with the OP in this situation and here's why:

The sad truth of hunting is, as long as a human being is wielding a weapon, there is probability of human error. In my lifetime I've experienced some instances in the field. A few: Had some elk hunters lob shots from 1000+ yards at a herd my dad and I had hiked up to in the snow, shooting right over us, scaring off to the moon. Saw a buck in an LE unit with an arrow sticking straight out of his face. Heard tale once of an individual with a very special tag that left his gun at home, then left his bullets at home, and finally after 316 rounds, put an elk on the ground, all with an outfitter and "spotters" in tow.

Like most things in life, there is a light and dark side. We take the good with the bad. But I think most of us would prefer the bad not be highlighted on television as an example of what we do as sportsmen.
 
I was helping a friend on a antelope hunt. I was watching from a ridge a mile away when he filled his tag. The herd started moving across a big flat area. I spotted two guys under a juniper tree setting up for a shot. At about 200 yards I watched him blow one front lower leg off at the knee joint. The antelope ran about 300 yards and stood there. When they went to where the they shot the antelope the buck spotted them and took off to rejoin the herd 3/4 of a mile away. It was amazing watching the buck learn to run. The first 50 yard were pretty slow, within 300 yards he was running fast enough I could barely tell he was missing a leg. I could tell by the hunters body language they did not know where the buck went. I left my spotting scope set up on the bedded buck and walk the mile out to let the guys know where the buck was at. When I reached them I told them where the buck was and they could head towards where he is or come back with me and see where he is at in my spotting scope. The first question he asked was " how far is the buck from my spotting scope because I am good out to 800 yards" Good grief! He just blew a leg off at 200 and still thinks he is good to half a mile
 
Have seen this trend occur in archery too!

I shoot a trad bow so let me state that I AM envious of the ability of some seasoned and talented shooters of a modern compound bow. On many of the videoed hunts I have watched, I like to count the number of arrows in the client's quiver. The video's kill photos often show fewer arrows on the guys bow quiver with no explanation? It is possible to loose an arrow while busting brush or covering ground. I suspect however that omitting footage of misses and even poor hits is not that uncommon.

The public image is not best served when a "Hail Mary" shot occurs on a hunting show with a bad result. IMO the remaining energy of a lite arrow after a long flight may be too diminished upon arrival. As a Recurve guy I too worry about the energy from my lower poundage bow with a 550-600 grain arrow beyond my self-imposed 25-30 yard limit. The other more obvious issue is the movement of the target animal during the time the arrow is in flight. There are guys who can pull this off and do so ethically. The real damage is the impression left on the below-average archer that has little chance of killing a Buck (let alone a bull) at extreme yardages. Such a video could have influence on a less talented archers choices.

Self-imposed pressure is not limited to Non-Residents with an expensive tag making them feel entitled to take a marginal shot late in their hunt. Residents with limited days can feel pressure too. I met 3 locals in NM on the NF that were following up a 90 yard hit on a bull the previous evening. They didn't know how well the bull was hit. After searching several fruitless hours, the same shooter missed a 100 yard shot at another elk! I detected no regret or shame in telling this story to a perfect stranger. The trio only had one more day left to hunt before they need to return to home/work. Not everyone can afford to take the whole archery season off. These guys in my opinion had a ticking clock putting extra pressure on them to score.

LaGriz
 
Tristate said:
Allright fellas. I had the TV on this morning and I wasn't really watching. Trying to get to the soccer tournament. About to run out the door and I grab the clicker to turn off TV and I realize somebody is about to do a long range poke on an elk. Ok. I've got 20 seconds to watch this. It ended up being one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen on television.

So I have done some background. The target shooter is Bob Beck I believe. The show is called Extreme Outer Limits. It's on Sportsmans channel. The show is set on the Zuni reservation. They are shooting elk. So they spot this elk walking in some juniper. Forgive me I didn't get the yardage on the poke. First shot I think goes over the bull. Second shot I have no idea where it went but not in the target. The bull moves forward into the brush but his back line and antlers can be seen. He shoots again. Not sure at what exactly but he let's it fly. The elk seems to react at the shot like he may have been hit. The bull travels right fully concealed by brush. There is some chatter between Bob and spotters over what is what. It appears from the video that there are more elk in there with the maybe wounded bull. Screw it. He let's another one fly at God knows what. He stands up after the shot. I can't remember his exact words but it's something along the lines of, "I could see a piece of something in there". Then he says, "I think I shot a stick." Then the BOB turns to the camera and says , "I'm pretty sure I hit him once."

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

He is shooting at increasingly shrinking targets after missing until he is slinging lead at movement in brush that he can't even specifically identify as the bull, OR ANY ELK FOR THAT MATTER, that he thinks he may have put a bullet in SOMEWHERE!

Just so I can be clear.

Bob, you are an unethical and unsafe shooter. You are engaging in an activity which is beyond your physical and mental capabilities. You are jeopardizing wildlife and the general public with your irresponsible self serving behavior.

Sportsman channel, do yall have any kind of filter which keeps garbage like this from being televised? If you don't, shame on you. If you do get aff your butts and use it before you do irreparable damage to our hunting culture.
Click to expand...
Hello again Tri,
Not sure if you saw this one back in August/September of last year. Another example of the same subject.


This was the Elk Auction Tag in AZ last year. Even though the shot was perfect at over 1000 yds, the whole spectacle just did not set well with me.
 
I am in the minority with 88man I guess. I came across long range hunting about 13 years ago after wounding 2 deer in one year. The shots were within range and adequately placed as viewed by others from camp but the bullets failed. I was told not to return to hunt unless I found better bullets. I was sick to say the least. I researched bullets and came across the berger VLD. At the time John Burns was with best of the west and the were claiming the original target bullets(the were not marketed for hunting) were better than any hunting bullets available. I reloaded them and they shot very well and performed excellent on an antelope at 421 yards from a 22-250 Ackley. In larger caliber rifles they were almost dissolving coyotes at moderate ranges. I ran accross long range hunting in a quest for more ethical hunting bullets. I followed the best of the west system and have improved myself both in ethics and marksmanship. I have hunted both ways. I find long range hunt more ethical from my person experience for these reasons:
The animal is calm both before and after the shot.
The calm animal allows the hunter to stay more relaxed and composed allowing for better shot placement.
Follow up shots if needed are easy because the animal is unaware of your position.
You know the range to the game animal prior to the shot.
Your less stressful to the game animals (no driving them from cover or jump shooting).
I can shoot more accurately in hunting situations at 700 plus yards with long range tactics than I ever could before at 250 yards.
I have never been breathing hard when firing in long range situations but over half the time when hunting the other ways.

I could keep going on but feel no need. I enjoy Bob Beck and his wife Chris. I love that he gets to hunt with his wife. I watched the elk hunt mentioned above. 360 yards is well within his abilities. I saw no lack of ethics. He ranged, dialed and did his best. To edit out the missed shots would have been bad but he left the misses in the video. He looked embarrassed. I can relate to that but I don't see him miss very often. I thought he did great, elk went what looked like 25 yards at most.

Hunters need to stick together. We are on the same team. People making programs like this are under the microscope constantly. They are under pressure to produce content. They love hunting so much they made it their careers. Step back, zoom out, try lacing up their boots and walk for a few miles in that lifestyle. Then you will have greater understand. These guys hunt different than some of us and that's ok.
 
Monarcelk,

How do you determine bullets failed if you didn't recover them?

I agree that hunters should stick together. I will add that all hunters miss and at times make stupid hunting or even unsafe mistakes.

JUST DON'T BROADCAST IT TO THE WORLD WHEN YOU DO. If you are going to broadcast it at least leave an apology recognizing you did something stupid and the only reason you are showing this is in an attempt to prevent stupid from spreading.
 
The idea the “hunters have to stick together” on unethical, and in some cases illegal, activities is not only laughable, it’s embarrassing for those that claim it.

There are a lot of shades of grey in much of what we do, but there still is right and wrong. Wrong is never made right by a crowd.
 
monarckelk said:
I am in the minority with 88man I guess. I came across long range hunting about 13 years ago after wounding 2 deer in one year. The shots were within range and adequately placed as viewed by others from camp but the bullets failed. I was told not to return to hunt unless I found better bullets. I was sick to say the least. I researched bullets and came across the berger VLD. At the time John Burns was with best of the west and the were claiming the original target bullets(the were not marketed for hunting) were better than any hunting bullets available. I reloaded them and they shot very well and performed excellent on an antelope at 421 yards from a 22-250 Ackley. In larger caliber rifles they were almost dissolving coyotes at moderate ranges. I ran accross long range hunting in a quest for more ethical hunting bullets. I followed the best of the west system and have improved myself both in ethics and marksmanship. I have hunted both ways. I find long range hunt more ethical from my person experience for these reasons:
The animal is calm both before and after the shot.
The calm animal allows the hunter to stay more relaxed and composed allowing for better shot placement.
Follow up shots if needed are easy because the animal is unaware of your position.
You know the range to the game animal prior to the shot.
Your less stressful to the game animals (no driving them from cover or jump shooting).
I can shoot more accurately in hunting situations at 700 plus yards with long range tactics than I ever could before at 250 yards.
I have never been breathing hard when firing in long range situations but over half the time when hunting the other ways.

I could keep going on but feel no need. I enjoy Bob Beck and his wife Chris. I love that he gets to hunt with his wife. I watched the elk hunt mentioned above. 360 yards is well within his abilities. I saw no lack of ethics. He ranged, dialed and did his best. To edit out the missed shots would have been bad but he left the misses in the video. He looked embarrassed. I can relate to that but I don't see him miss very often. I thought he did great, elk went what looked like 25 yards at most.

Hunters need to stick together. We are on the same team. People making programs like this are under the microscope constantly. They are under pressure to produce content. They love hunting so much they made it their careers. Step back, zoom out, try lacing up their boots and walk for a few miles in that lifestyle. Then you will have greater understand. These guys hunt different than some of us and that's ok.
Click to expand...
Do you work for Berger? mtmuley
 
monarckelk said:
I am in the minority with 88man I guess. I came across long range hunting about 13 years ago after wounding 2 deer in one year. The shots were within range and adequately placed as viewed by others from camp but the bullets failed. I was told not to return to hunt unless I found better bullets. I was sick to say the least. I researched bullets and came across the berger VLD. At the time John Burns was with best of the west and the were claiming the original target bullets(the were not marketed for hunting) were better than any hunting bullets available. I reloaded them and they shot very well and performed excellent on an antelope at 421 yards from a 22-250 Ackley. In larger caliber rifles they were almost dissolving coyotes at moderate ranges. I ran accross long range hunting in a quest for more ethical hunting bullets. I followed the best of the west system and have improved myself both in ethics and marksmanship. I have hunted both ways. I find long range hunt more ethical from my person experience for these reasons:
The animal is calm both before and after the shot.
The calm animal allows the hunter to stay more relaxed and composed allowing for better shot placement.
Follow up shots if needed are easy because the animal is unaware of your position.
You know the range to the game animal prior to the shot.
Your less stressful to the game animals (no driving them from cover or jump shooting).
I can shoot more accurately in hunting situations at 700 plus yards with long range tactics than I ever could before at 250 yards.
I have never been breathing hard when firing in long range situations but over half the time when hunting the other ways.

I could keep going on but feel no need. I enjoy Bob Beck and his wife Chris. I love that he gets to hunt with his wife. I watched the elk hunt mentioned above. 360 yards is well within his abilities. I saw no lack of ethics. He ranged, dialed and did his best. To edit out the missed shots would have been bad but he left the misses in the video. He looked embarrassed. I can relate to that but I don't see him miss very often. I thought he did great, elk went what looked like 25 yards at most.

Hunters need to stick together. We are on the same team. People making programs like this are under the microscope constantly. They are under pressure to produce content. They love hunting so much they made it their careers. Step back, zoom out, try lacing up their boots and walk for a few miles in that lifestyle. Then you will have greater understand. These guys hunt different than some of us and that's ok.
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lmmfao.....pure BS
 
Vanilla said:
The idea the “hunters have to stick together” on unethical, and in some cases illegal, activities is not only laughable, it’s embarrassing for those that claim it.

There are a lot of shades of grey in much of what we do, but there still is right and wrong. Wrong is never made right by a crowd.
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Well said, we should police our own.
 
Tristate said:
Monarcelk,

How do you determine bullets failed if you didn't recover them?

I agree that hunters should stick together. I will add that all hunters miss and at times make stupid hunting or even unsafe mistakes.

JUST DON'T BROADCAST IT TO THE WORLD WHEN YOU DO. If you are going to broadcast it at least leave an apology recognizing you did something stupid and the only reason you are showing this is in an attempt to prevent stupid from spreading.
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I....sigh....agree with tristate.....how do you know the bullet failed and you just didn't make a trash hit?? I've witnessed true bullet failure because we recovered the animal, I've also made bad shots and ended my hunt after that shot.
 
I shot a coyote at 100 yards on opening morning that same year. Perfect heart shot with 150 grain in what should have been expanding bullets. He ran off like he was never hit. Found him below in the trees on 5th morning with a very small hole out the back. It never expanded but was lethal after he ran downhill 400 yards. Had to shoot an elk at 40 yards 4 times 2 years prior with same bullets. Not much damage to internals with 3 through the vitals. The coyote was the one that made us blame the bullets. 150 grain ballistic Silvertip. I had used them in 55 gr 223 for years on coyotes and they were great.

I wish I did work or have in inside source at berger. It has been hard to find the 168 gr in .284 diameter and the 75 gr in .224 lately. Hard to practice before season when your rationing bullets.
 
I wouldn't think a 150 grain ballistic silvertip is designed to expand in a coyote, I would think it would be designed to expand in game from antelope to elk. Like the 223 silvertip is designed to expand in a coyote, probably won't perform well on an elk, it would expand in the skin and not penetrate. My $.02.
 
You shoot any cervid in north America through the heart or lungs with a 150 grain bullet that doesn't expand and you'll kill him stone dead.

We shoot cape Buffalo with bullets specifically designed not to expand and they are much tougher than any of the north American game. Guess what. You hit their lungs or heart and they die toot sweet.

The 3 ways you will run into bullet failure is lack of penetration, over expansion/fragmentation, or expansion that occurs back to front.
 
EVILNR said:
It's not how far you can shoot, but how close can you get.
I refuse to watch crap like that.
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Hunting isnt about how far, its about how close, the way i see it. I know guys who think the bigger the number yardagewise, the bigger the bragging rights. I just dont get it. To me an animal killed at 10 yards is something to be proud of. An animal killed at 400, id be embarrassed to admit it. But hey, different strokes for different folks i guess.
 
The second deer shot was a large 3 point that we wanted the cape from to redo my father's mount. I had my brother in law and father come check it to make sure neck was large enough. They watched the first shot make ripples as it exited the back chest cavity. I shot from rock just over 100 yards away I had snuck up to. Dead rest. When the deer did not go down and walked around I shot 3 more times. One of the last 3 shots likely failed due to a limb shaking on one of the trees in the burn scare. The other 2 at that distance and considering my calm nature and practice with coyotes that season were likely hits too. My dad watched him fall so I shouldered my gun and I got out my flashlight because it was almost dark. My dad walked me right to where he fell and there was no deer. Also no blood. I looked for 45 minutes. Then returned in the morning and we combed and gridded the area for hours without a trace.

We call it bullet failure. We also due to what we expirenced will never use them again. It really sucks for the poor animals that suffered and died. It also was unfair to friends and family who sacrifice their hunt to look for wounded animals. We feel the bullets zipped through the animals causing minimal damage. The elk had 1 slug left in the hide of the neck. It had barely mushroomed after traveling from the left hind quarter and into the base neck on the right. That was the 4th shot which finally dropped it. Almost no bloodshot damage in hind quarter. We think they were acting like FMJ bullets. The 3th shot I led too far and shot though the lower jawbone. No expansion just a hole through both sides. We prefer boom-flops. The bullets I use now provide that. Zero wounded on shots from 70 to 942 yards.
 
monarckelk said:
The second deer shot was a large 3 point that we wanted the cape from to redo my father's mount. I had my brother in law and father come check it to make sure neck was large enough. They watched the first shot make ripples as it exited the back chest cavity. I shot from rock just over 100 yards away I had snuck up to. Dead rest. When the deer did not go down and walked around I shot 3 more times. One of the last 3 shots likely failed due to a limb shaking on one of the trees in the burn scare. The other 2 at that distance and considering my calm nature and practice with coyotes that season were likely hits too. My dad watched him fall so I shouldered my gun and I got out my flashlight because it was almost dark. My dad walked me right to where he fell and there was no deer. Also no blood. I looked for 45 minutes. Then returned in the morning and we combed and gridded the area for hours without a trace.

We call it bullet failure. We also due to what we expirenced will never use them again. It really sucks for the poor animals that suffered and died. It also was unfair to friends and family who sacrifice their hunt to look for wounded animals. We feel the bullets zipped through the animals causing minimal damage. The elk had 1 slug left in the hide of the neck. It had barely mushroomed after traveling from the left hind quarter and into the base neck on the right. That was the 4th shot which finally dropped it. Almost no bloodshot damage in hind quarter. We think they were acting like FMJ bullets. The 3th shot I led too far and shot though the lower jawbone. No expansion just a hole through both sides. We prefer boom-flops. The bullets I use now provide that. Zero wounded on shots from 70 to 942 yards.
Click to expand...

There is very little in this post that sounds like reality.
 
monarckelk said:
The second deer shot was a large 3 point that we wanted the cape from to redo my father's mount. I had my brother in law and father come check it to make sure neck was large enough. They watched the first shot make ripples as it exited the back chest cavity. I shot from rock just over 100 yards away I had snuck up to. Dead rest. When the deer did not go down and walked around I shot 3 more times. One of the last 3 shots likely failed due to a limb shaking on one of the trees in the burn scare. The other 2 at that distance and considering my calm nature and practice with coyotes that season were likely hits too. My dad watched him fall so I shouldered my gun and I got out my flashlight because it was almost dark. My dad walked me right to where he fell and there was no deer. Also no blood. I looked for 45 minutes. Then returned in the morning and we combed and gridded the area for hours without a trace.

We call it bullet failure. We also due to what we expirenced will never use them again. It really sucks for the poor animals that suffered and died. It also was unfair to friends and family who sacrifice their hunt to look for wounded animals. We feel the bullets zipped through the animals causing minimal damage. The elk had 1 slug left in the hide of the neck. It had barely mushroomed after traveling from the left hind quarter and into the base neck on the right. That was the 4th shot which finally dropped it. Almost no bloodshot damage in hind quarter. We think they were acting like FMJ bullets. The 3th shot I led too far and shot though the lower jawbone. No expansion just a hole through both sides. We prefer boom-flops. The bullets I use now provide that. Zero wounded on shots from 70 to 942 yards.
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70-942 yards.......??? come on man. If you shot a deer at 100 yards and it was in ANY vitals, especially if it was a complete pass through would still be a lethal shot. If you double lunged that deer, then even a pencil in and out would kill it because it's lungs couldn't hold oxygen. And I'm sorry.....you "led too far" and shot the jaw bone??? So you were shooting at a running animal.....cause that's ethical or smart....
 
Runny wounded animal. 40 yards at most. Shoot until they are down. 1st 2 shots were walking across dirt road. We snuck in on them. After 2 shots elk started running. Passed from right to left. Was shooting browning bar semiautomatic. Very fast follow up shots in ponderosa pines.

Of course the two deer are dead. Sucks neither were found. Ethics was the thread. Point I was trying to make is judging ethics from the comfort of your couch outside the situation shows a character type. Bob was judged from 4 minutes of video. Me from a few posts. Strong work. I just prefer not to label things so quickly.
 
monarckelk said:
Runny wounded animal. 40 yards at most. Shoot until they are down. 1st 2 shots were walking across dirt road. We snuck in on them. After 2 shots elk started running. Passed from right to left. Was shooting browning bar semiautomatic. Very fast follow up shots in ponderosa pines.

Of course the two deer are dead. Sucks neither were found. Ethics was the thread. Point I was trying to make is judging ethics from the comfort of your couch outside the situation shows a character type. Bob was judged from 4 minutes of video. Me from a few posts. Strong work. I just prefer not to label things so quickly.
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At least I have a 4 minute video and Bob's own words to use in my judgment.

You loose 2 deer back to back and don't even have the bullet to look at, AND YOU BLAME THE BULLETS!?

One thing I noticed in your postings is how nothing seems to be your fault. The shakey limb, dad marked the dead deer, and the amazing bullet that can pass all the way through a deer's rib cage but not kill him. At no point does it occur to you, YOU ARE MAKING MISTAKES.

You want to tell us wild stories of 150 grain bullets that shoot elk stem to stern but you pull them out of coyotes that they can't pass through because they didn't expand?????? Coyotes that run 400 yards after you shoot them weren't hit right. I've killed more than I can count with a .22 lr right through the ribs and they don't go 100 yards.

Then you talk about your bullet you love that all game flops dead from 70 to 942 yards????? What's the fps at 70 yards of this bullet? What is the fps at 942? If you knew anything about bullet performance YOU WOULD KNOW AT LEAST ONE OF THOSE DISTANCES IS WELL OUTSIDE THE PERFORMANCE WINDOW OF THAT BULLET.

Look I am all for you finding a bullet that makes you happy. Equipment confidence is the one of the most important tools you have when stepping into the kill box. But keep reality in sight. If you don't you won't recognize problems when you encounter them.
 

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