Is it cheating?
- Thread starter Idahoron
- Start date
huntfish714
Active Member
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Yes cheating! From what I hear in Alaska you can't even hunt in the same day as you fly. It could have only been for a certain species though. Yes cheating in my book for big game
D
dreaminbouthuntin
Guest
Absolutely its cheating and should be illegal. I was up hunting elk this fall in the wilderness area and TWO planes were circling and diving through the canyons in the mornings and afternoons. I dont know if they were pushing animals, trying to scare us out or scouting. Either way it was beyond rediculous. We still were successful, however they flew so low and so close to us they were only around 100 yards off the ground. I will admit it crossed my mind several times to put a round through their engine, but i hate paper work..
M
muleymaster
Guest
YES it is. It is not only illegal in idaho but should be reported if witnessed. It doesnt give the animals a fair chance.
customweld
Active Member
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I believe in Idaho it is illegal in 2 different ways. Illegal to use any motorize craft in any way to drive or stir up animals and to use an aircraft to locate animals or communicate their positions to people on the ground.
bigcreekmetal
Active Member
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Maybe it is and maybe it isnt but you can bet if I had a plane Id be up in it taking a look around. I have a hard time believing most people wouldnt if they had an aircraft. Its pretty easy to say its cheating when you dont own an airplane. I dont think a plane would do much good for spotting deer anyway, they are tough enough to see from the ground let alone from a darn plane thats moving. Elk on the other hand would be much easier to spot and locate. Ya, if I had a plane Id look for elk.
agree with bigcreek, most people if they had a plane would do it. I dont have a plane so I dont do it. Most hunters will do whatever it takes to be sucessful and spend what money they can afford to(horses, dirt bikes, goats, just hiking) People pay what they can and most cant afford planes. i cant afford horses so I dont so that
customweld
Active Member
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There is no gray area. Read the regulations. I suppose if you don't get caught it isn't illegal. If you don't get caught selling crack is it still illegal?
bigcreekmetal
Active Member
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>There is no gray area. Read
>the regulations. I suppose if
>you don't get caught it
>isn't illegal. If you don't
>get caught selling crack is
>it still illegal?
Well of course crack is still illegal whether you get caught or not. Same with driving over the speed limit or thievery (not that I put them in the same class cause I dont). I admit I havent checked the regs lately to see exactly what the rules are concerning aircraft, but last I read I thought you could scout with a plane as long as a day or two or three passed before you could hunt that area? Maybe Im wrong. Maybe it is illegal to scout from a plane. Still if I had a plane would I take a pleasure ride over my favorite hunting ground? Probably. Just being honest, or maybe dishonest depending on how you look at it.
>the regulations. I suppose if
>you don't get caught it
>isn't illegal. If you don't
>get caught selling crack is
>it still illegal?
Well of course crack is still illegal whether you get caught or not. Same with driving over the speed limit or thievery (not that I put them in the same class cause I dont). I admit I havent checked the regs lately to see exactly what the rules are concerning aircraft, but last I read I thought you could scout with a plane as long as a day or two or three passed before you could hunt that area? Maybe Im wrong. Maybe it is illegal to scout from a plane. Still if I had a plane would I take a pleasure ride over my favorite hunting ground? Probably. Just being honest, or maybe dishonest depending on how you look at it.
huntfish714
Active Member
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- 326
Cheating yes but will add a +1 for honesty but would never shoot from a chopper if given the chance.
bigcreekmetal
Active Member
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- 351
>Cheating yes but will add a
>+1 for honesty but would
>never shoot from a chopper
>if given the chance.
I would never shoot from an aircraft either. That is most certainly beyond wrong no matter how you look at it.
>+1 for honesty but would
>never shoot from a chopper
>if given the chance.
I would never shoot from an aircraft either. That is most certainly beyond wrong no matter how you look at it.
M
muleymaster
Guest
its the people that dont read the regulations, say "oh i thought you could", and flat out do whatever they want that ruin it for the rest of us who hunt honestly and legally!!! I have had a rancher pull a gun and point it in my face and threaten to shoot me just for pulling in his driveway to ask permission for access to public lands when the weekend before he said it was ok. I have come across 4wheelers going cross country on private (well marked) land. My roomate had a bull stolen from him after he killed it. ALLLLL of this kind of stuff is just dumb and ruins it for everyone else!!!
my point is, dont guess or assume, read the regulations, and follow the laws!!!
my point is, dont guess or assume, read the regulations, and follow the laws!!!
bigcreekmetal
Active Member
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- 351
Easy there homes... I do read the regs when it pertains to me and to what I am or will be doing, but I dont make a point of learning the letter of the law for everything that does not pertain to me. When I buy a plane Ill read that part of the regs.
+1 on what you said concerning the losers who do crappy stuff and ruin it for the law abiders. That sucks.
+1 on what you said concerning the losers who do crappy stuff and ruin it for the law abiders. That sucks.
Abiggerfish2fry
Very Active Member
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LAST EDITED ON Nov-17-11 AT 09:44AM (MST)[p]I really don't see a problem with using a plane to find the hurds! but I do see a problem with using it to pick out a individual animal for it size or quality! Well Ok now I opened my self for you to take a jab, so go for it.
bigcreekmetal
Active Member
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- 351
For kicks I just opened up the electronic regs and read the part about using aircraft. After reading it I still think it is ok to scout with an airplane as long as you are not communicating the location of animals to people on the ground. It read to me though that it would be ok for someone to scout using a plane then land and that same person go and try to find them. It was somewhat ambiguous.
Yea I think its cheating, but yea I would be up there flying around during the summer scouting around too if it was legal. As it was already said it would be hard to find individual animals in a plane, but it would be fun and maybe give you new ideas on where to hike into.
Abiggerfish2fry
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Rizzy I sent you a PM
I
IDdesertman
Guest
IMO Yes. Using one for general scouting preseason doesn't bother me, but flying a day before your hunt to locate the game is beyond cheating in my book. I know it's not uncommon. Unfortunately, it seems it would be almost impossible to actually catch someone doing this. I'd be curious to hear if anyone has heard of someone getting prosecuted for hunting with a plane?
bigcreekmetal
Active Member
- Messages
- 351
This reminds me of a time about 15 - 20 years ago in high school when I was pheasant hunting with a friend who took a pot shot at a plane with his 12 gauge. Stupid idiot. The plane was flying low but I have no doubts about it being well out of range of any scattergun. Nonetheless that is about as low down dumb as you can get to do that. I quit hunting with him because any time I went out with him something would always happen and it wasnt because of me! He has grown up alot since then but I still dont hunt with him.
NO, I dont think its cheating.Those that do probably are just jealous of those who can and do.Its no different than driving your trucks loaded with a bunch of 4-wheelers or pulling a loaded horse trailer to your favorite hunting spots.Your using a motorized vehicle for the same results you just dont get that birds eye view.Think of those people that dont have 4-wheelers or motorcycles that work there butt off to get to places just to see some lazy fu// cruise by on a motorized vehicle.I bet he feels just like you guys that are complaining about airplanes.He still has the same right to do it but thats a personal choice.I dont use an airplane to scout or a 4- wheeler or horses but I do drive my truck to get where im going so theres no difference in my eyes between the two.Idahoron, I wonder if anyone was packing out there deer on there backs while you and your son cruised by on your 4-wheeler with your sons muzzleloader deer.Ill bet it didnt sit right with them but you still did it and have the right to.If I could afford any of these options to help me be successful and my hunt easier I would and im not jealous of those who can.
BPKHunter
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Seems that this happens fairly regularly on the unit 40 elk hunts. I have not read the regs as it pertains to aircraft and hunting in Idaho. I guess I assume it is illegal to scout for game, land and try and kill them the same day. As was already said, when I own a plane or plan to hire a plane I will read the regs. I think someday I will go into the church by plane and will know before I go.
These are good discussions and most of these seem to be gray areas. Unless you are hunting with just a loin cloth and a club, you are probably taking advantage of technology, so where is the line from there, other than what the law says, it is a personal moral issue for each of us.
These are good discussions and most of these seem to be gray areas. Unless you are hunting with just a loin cloth and a club, you are probably taking advantage of technology, so where is the line from there, other than what the law says, it is a personal moral issue for each of us.
Good point on the 40 Elk hunt, I remember reading that on this very forum. A plane would be a big advantage for desert type terrain like in the 40's units.
I always thought someone could charter a helicopter and get dropped off on top of a mountain in the middle of the wilderness. It might even be more cost effective than hiring a guide and horses. I would hope it is illegal, but what if it isn't?
I always thought someone could charter a helicopter and get dropped off on top of a mountain in the middle of the wilderness. It might even be more cost effective than hiring a guide and horses. I would hope it is illegal, but what if it isn't?
I am pretty sure it is illegal to use a helicopter to pack a camp in or game out if its not landing on a designated landing pad.
I have been in a small plane twice neither time for hunting. It would not be hard to judge horns from the air. You can see whistle pigs running around from pretty high up.
I think some of the planes seen flying low during season are forest service and F&G patrolling closed roads. I wish they would do a little more of that.
Is scouting with a plane before season cheating? I don't think so. My opinion.
I have been in a small plane twice neither time for hunting. It would not be hard to judge horns from the air. You can see whistle pigs running around from pretty high up.
I think some of the planes seen flying low during season are forest service and F&G patrolling closed roads. I wish they would do a little more of that.
Is scouting with a plane before season cheating? I don't think so. My opinion.
Idahoron
Very Active Member
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- 1,980
>Idahoron, I
>wonder if anyone was packing
>out there deer on there
>backs while you and your
>son cruised by on your
>4-wheeler with your sons muzzleloader
>deer.Ill bet it didnt sit
>right with them but you
>still did it and have
>the right to.If I could
>afford any of these options
>to help me be successful
>and my hunt easier I
>would and im not jealous
>of those who can.
Actually since your pointing fingers at me and my son I will reply. In fact we had to drag his deer close to 1/2 mile to get to a road. Once at the road we did load it on an atv. No different than using a truck except that we didn't run the chance of wrecking a truck on the snow covered roads. We caused less potential damage to the roads since we were not going to slide off the road and into a creek bottom. If your saying we were not ethical using an ATV you would be wrong.
The reason I asked the question in the first place is during an elk hunt with a friend we were buzzed by an airplane. To me flying 50 foot off the ground and buzzing animals should be the same as harassing big game. I was told by a F&G friend that a guy is hunting in the big desert east of Carey with a plane. HE finds elk lands and goes after them. They said it is legal. I don't see how using one like that is like using a truck or an ATV. Ron
>wonder if anyone was packing
>out there deer on there
>backs while you and your
>son cruised by on your
>4-wheeler with your sons muzzleloader
>deer.Ill bet it didnt sit
>right with them but you
>still did it and have
>the right to.If I could
>afford any of these options
>to help me be successful
>and my hunt easier I
>would and im not jealous
>of those who can.
Actually since your pointing fingers at me and my son I will reply. In fact we had to drag his deer close to 1/2 mile to get to a road. Once at the road we did load it on an atv. No different than using a truck except that we didn't run the chance of wrecking a truck on the snow covered roads. We caused less potential damage to the roads since we were not going to slide off the road and into a creek bottom. If your saying we were not ethical using an ATV you would be wrong.
The reason I asked the question in the first place is during an elk hunt with a friend we were buzzed by an airplane. To me flying 50 foot off the ground and buzzing animals should be the same as harassing big game. I was told by a F&G friend that a guy is hunting in the big desert east of Carey with a plane. HE finds elk lands and goes after them. They said it is legal. I don't see how using one like that is like using a truck or an ATV. Ron
M
MULEY204
Guest
I HAVE HEARD OF ULTRA LITE ONE MAN TYPE AIRCRAFT BEING USED IN THE SUMMER TO SCOUT FOR DEER IN THE HIGH COUNTRY ABOVE TREE LINE AND HEARD IT WAS VERY EFFECTIVE AND YOU COULD JUDGE THE QUALITY VERY WELL.
Abiggerfish2fry
Very Active Member
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- 1,466
Ok, I think everyone should a step back and take a breather on this subject! If you really think about how much it cost to fly a plane around looking for a Deer Or a Elk to shoot and the cost of driving out there to get the animal, well that would be one heck of alot of money for a something you will more than likley not get any how, so I am not sure why this is really a big deal! by the way I am going to need a plane for this weekend!
Ron, didnt mean to ruffle any feathers here so please dont take it wrong.I just pointed out the fact that you do the same thing with your motorized vehicle as people with airplanes.I dont think any of the actions are unethical.Its all obviously relative to the persons involved.If I had use of those tools I would use them also when I felt it was necessary.Sorry if I offended you or your son.It was a great story.I also dont see the difference in flying 50 feet or 500 feet off the ground.Its no different than using 5 power or 15 power binoculars that im sure you also used on your hunt.Happy hunting to all no matter how you choose to do it!
S
Salmonfg
Guest
The information in the regulations book is a summary of statutes (i.e., created by the Idaho Legislature) and rules (i.e., created by the Idaho Fish and Game Commission). With regard to aircraft, several statutes apply:
" Except as may be otherwise provided under this title or commission rules or proclamations promulgated pursuant thereto, it is unlawful for any person to:
1. Hunt from Motorized Vehicles. Hunt any of the game animals or game birds of this state from or by the use of any motorized vehicle except as provided by commission rule;"...
"2. Molest with Motorized Vehicles. Use any motorized vehicle to molest, stir up, rally or drive in any manner any of the game animals or game birds of this state.
3. Communicate from Aircraft. Make use of aircraft in any manner to spot or locate game animals, game birds or fur-bearing animals of this state from the air and communicate the location or approximate location thereof by any signals whatsoever, whether radio, visual or otherwise, to any person then on the ground.
4. Hunt from Helicopter. Make use of any helicopter in any manner in the taking of game or loading, transporting, or unloading hunters, game or hunting gear in any manner except when such use is at recognized airports or airplane landing fields, or at heliports which have been previously established on private land or which have been established by a department or agency of the federal, state or local government or when said use is in the course of emergency or search and rescue operations. Provided however, that nothing in this chapter shall limit or prohibit the lawful control of wolves or predatory or unprotected animals through the use of helicopters when such measures are deemed necessary by federal or state agencies in accordance with existing laws or management plans.
5. Hunt with Aid of Aircraft. Make use of any aircraft to locate any big game animal for the purpose of hunting those animals during the same calendar day those animals were located from the air. Provided however, that nothing in this chapter shall limit or prohibit the lawful control of wolves or predatory or unprotected wildlife through the use of aircraft when such measures are deemed necessary by federal or state agencies in accordance with existing laws or management plans."
The language under 5 would prohibit the activity as described by IdahoRon - one cannot spot game from an aircraft and hunt them the same calendar day, nor could they pass that information to someone on the ground.
Tom Keegan
IDFG Salmon Region Wildlife Manager
" Except as may be otherwise provided under this title or commission rules or proclamations promulgated pursuant thereto, it is unlawful for any person to:
1. Hunt from Motorized Vehicles. Hunt any of the game animals or game birds of this state from or by the use of any motorized vehicle except as provided by commission rule;"...
"2. Molest with Motorized Vehicles. Use any motorized vehicle to molest, stir up, rally or drive in any manner any of the game animals or game birds of this state.
3. Communicate from Aircraft. Make use of aircraft in any manner to spot or locate game animals, game birds or fur-bearing animals of this state from the air and communicate the location or approximate location thereof by any signals whatsoever, whether radio, visual or otherwise, to any person then on the ground.
4. Hunt from Helicopter. Make use of any helicopter in any manner in the taking of game or loading, transporting, or unloading hunters, game or hunting gear in any manner except when such use is at recognized airports or airplane landing fields, or at heliports which have been previously established on private land or which have been established by a department or agency of the federal, state or local government or when said use is in the course of emergency or search and rescue operations. Provided however, that nothing in this chapter shall limit or prohibit the lawful control of wolves or predatory or unprotected animals through the use of helicopters when such measures are deemed necessary by federal or state agencies in accordance with existing laws or management plans.
5. Hunt with Aid of Aircraft. Make use of any aircraft to locate any big game animal for the purpose of hunting those animals during the same calendar day those animals were located from the air. Provided however, that nothing in this chapter shall limit or prohibit the lawful control of wolves or predatory or unprotected wildlife through the use of aircraft when such measures are deemed necessary by federal or state agencies in accordance with existing laws or management plans."
The language under 5 would prohibit the activity as described by IdahoRon - one cannot spot game from an aircraft and hunt them the same calendar day, nor could they pass that information to someone on the ground.
Tom Keegan
IDFG Salmon Region Wildlife Manager
ORIONTHEHUNTER
Very Active Member
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- 1,735
Sounds like under rule five you could fly an area and find game and hunt them the next day since it would not be the same calendar day.
D
dreaminbouthuntin
Guest
I cant believe the audacity of some posters saying, if you had a plane you'd do it too.. wrong!
it quiet frankly pisses me off. Im up hiking my butt off, far away from roads, and in sweeps a plane and helicopter no more than 100 yards off the ground. Mind you the helicopter did NOT have any numbers on it! None!
im in the middle of my elk hunt. They scatter from the noise. They saw us, no doubt. Probably some stupid anti hunters or ones not wanting us to get on the herd they want to hunt. I see those bastards again there is no doubt im turning them in. It was pure harassment. Sad thing is, i think i know who it was. And he has unlimited vasts of money and will continue to get away with it.
Saying just because i or anyone has a problem with it shpuld get over it or wpuld do it given the opportunity is FALSE!
it quiet frankly pisses me off. Im up hiking my butt off, far away from roads, and in sweeps a plane and helicopter no more than 100 yards off the ground. Mind you the helicopter did NOT have any numbers on it! None!
im in the middle of my elk hunt. They scatter from the noise. They saw us, no doubt. Probably some stupid anti hunters or ones not wanting us to get on the herd they want to hunt. I see those bastards again there is no doubt im turning them in. It was pure harassment. Sad thing is, i think i know who it was. And he has unlimited vasts of money and will continue to get away with it.
Saying just because i or anyone has a problem with it shpuld get over it or wpuld do it given the opportunity is FALSE!
bigcreekmetal
Active Member
- Messages
- 351
LOL (concerning the audacity part). This has been a fun thread.
>I cant believe the audacity of
>some posters saying, if you
>had a plane you'd do
>it too.. wrong!
>it quiet frankly pisses me off.
>Im up hiking my butt
>off, far away from roads,
>and in sweeps a plane
>and helicopter no more than
>100 yards off the ground.
>Mind you the helicopter did
>NOT have any numbers on
>it! None!
>im in the middle of my
>elk hunt. They scatter from
>the noise. They saw us,
>no doubt. Probably some stupid
>anti hunters or ones not
>wanting us to get on
>the herd they want to
>hunt. I see those bastards
>again there is no doubt
>im turning them in. It
>was pure harassment. Sad thing
>is, i think i know
>who it was. And he
>has unlimited vasts of money
>and will continue to get
>away with it.
>Saying just because i or anyone
>has a problem with it
>shpuld get over it or
>wpuld do it given the
>opportunity is FALSE!
>I cant believe the audacity of
>some posters saying, if you
>had a plane you'd do
>it too.. wrong!
>it quiet frankly pisses me off.
>Im up hiking my butt
>off, far away from roads,
>and in sweeps a plane
>and helicopter no more than
>100 yards off the ground.
>Mind you the helicopter did
>NOT have any numbers on
>it! None!
>im in the middle of my
>elk hunt. They scatter from
>the noise. They saw us,
>no doubt. Probably some stupid
>anti hunters or ones not
>wanting us to get on
>the herd they want to
>hunt. I see those bastards
>again there is no doubt
>im turning them in. It
>was pure harassment. Sad thing
>is, i think i know
>who it was. And he
>has unlimited vasts of money
>and will continue to get
>away with it.
>Saying just because i or anyone
>has a problem with it
>shpuld get over it or
>wpuld do it given the
>opportunity is FALSE!
L
leet
Guest
Damn right it is cheating!! I see it done all the time all over Idaho. People are lazy and will not even scout any area knowing they can find them from the air whenever they please. I know some that even have contact with hunters on the ground and talk them onto the animals. Should not be allowed, but I have no idea how it can be combatted. Is even done in wilderness areas!
I do not look for it to stop anytime soon, but it really pisses me off!!
I do not look for it to stop anytime soon, but it really pisses me off!!
I
IDdesertman
Guest
SalmonFG,
Thanks for posting the actual laws on this subject. I'm still curious, have you ever heard of anyone actually getting prosecuted for hunting using an aircraft? It seems to me that actually viewing someone flying, and proving that they are radioing to someone on the ground, or landed the plane and came back to harvest game on the same day would be unlikely.
My guess is that it happens quite a bit, but probably little attempt is made on enforcement due to the difficulty(nearly impossibility) to enforce. Still a worthy law though.
Thanks for posting the actual laws on this subject. I'm still curious, have you ever heard of anyone actually getting prosecuted for hunting using an aircraft? It seems to me that actually viewing someone flying, and proving that they are radioing to someone on the ground, or landed the plane and came back to harvest game on the same day would be unlikely.
My guess is that it happens quite a bit, but probably little attempt is made on enforcement due to the difficulty(nearly impossibility) to enforce. Still a worthy law though.
H
High_Country
Guest
So if you see it happen or KNOW that someone is doing this, why not turn them in?
If it happens so much, F&G obviously have no problem with it or they would do somthing about it.Who else has the authority to do it.They can tell us all about the law but thats not stopping anybody from doing it.Its up to them to enforce it,and I dont see that happening anytime soon.
Not cheating if following the rules. I've looked into flying the area that I hunt, and if I had the funds I'd hire somebody to fly me around the area the weekend before season opens.
I have hunted and scouted the area I hunt for years, and every year I always wonder what is over the next hill. One of these days I'll get to see over all the hills. I agree flying low and pestering the animals is wrong, but a single pass 200 yards high doesn't do anything to the animals around where I hunt.(I see it every year)
I have hunted and scouted the area I hunt for years, and every year I always wonder what is over the next hill. One of these days I'll get to see over all the hills. I agree flying low and pestering the animals is wrong, but a single pass 200 yards high doesn't do anything to the animals around where I hunt.(I see it every year)
S
Salmonfg
Guest
First off, I'm a wildlife manager, and as such in Idaho, I don't often get involved in enforcement.
I don't get many reports of this kind of activity and when I do they are typically at least weeks old and without a tail number (to my knowledge all licensed aircraft must have an ID number - so lack of a number is probably some sort of violation as well - any pilots out there can correct me).
From my perspective, to say IDFG knows all about this "rampant" problem and doesn't care because officers don't enforce it seems unlikely. I suggest if hunters are aware of such illegal behavior, they record all posible information (vehicle numbers are most useful) and report it immediately to IDFG enforcement or the CAP hotline. If someone is actually tranferring information to hunters on the ground or hunting the same day, officers should be able to make cases. Conversely, proving intent of harassing animals from an aircraft may be more challenging. Our fish and wildlife law enforcement relies heavily on the observations and reports from concerned hunters and anglers. There are far more sportspersons in the field than officers.
Sincerely,
Tom Keegan
IDFG Salmon Region Wildlife Manager
I don't get many reports of this kind of activity and when I do they are typically at least weeks old and without a tail number (to my knowledge all licensed aircraft must have an ID number - so lack of a number is probably some sort of violation as well - any pilots out there can correct me).
From my perspective, to say IDFG knows all about this "rampant" problem and doesn't care because officers don't enforce it seems unlikely. I suggest if hunters are aware of such illegal behavior, they record all posible information (vehicle numbers are most useful) and report it immediately to IDFG enforcement or the CAP hotline. If someone is actually tranferring information to hunters on the ground or hunting the same day, officers should be able to make cases. Conversely, proving intent of harassing animals from an aircraft may be more challenging. Our fish and wildlife law enforcement relies heavily on the observations and reports from concerned hunters and anglers. There are far more sportspersons in the field than officers.
Sincerely,
Tom Keegan
IDFG Salmon Region Wildlife Manager
i've flown over the country i hunt many times. we havent done it during hunting season, but usually in the late winter/early spring, just to view all the critters. and no, we arent buzzing or harrassing them. its fun as hell, and neat to see the ground you hunt from that perspective. kind of nice having buddies with a plane
the backcountry flying/camping is awesome too. most of that country is so dense, you cant see anything....at least the air strips ive been into.
to the poster above.....if you see this happening all the time and dont report it, youve got no business bitching about it. to me, thats like pissing and moaning about newly elected officials...when you didnt even vote! you need to report it.
the backcountry flying/camping is awesome too. most of that country is so dense, you cant see anything....at least the air strips ive been into. to the poster above.....if you see this happening all the time and dont report it, youve got no business bitching about it. to me, thats like pissing and moaning about newly elected officials...when you didnt even vote! you need to report it.
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