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Idaho Deer Herds in Big Trouble

E

elkcaller208

Member
Messages
35
I have been hunting Idaho for the better part of 30 years and no matter what fish and game says I firmly believe the Deer herds in the state are in serious trouble.If we as sportsmen don't get something done about it now there will be no Deer to hunt.what are your thoughts on this matter? I have a number of ideas most of which wouldn't be popular with f&g because it would reduce the number of out of state tags which is Huge source of revenue.I would also be in favor of making more areas a draw as well as implementing more 4 point areas. and last but certainly not least shortening the seasons.please share your thoughts and maybe together we can get something done.
Shawn
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-20-08 AT 06:09PM (MST)[p]


choose your weapon is what could be a good thing to
 
1. Eliminate Wolves

2. Eliminate late season rut hunts and 2 point only hunts, or at least cut # of tags.

3. Improve habitat.
 
i would really like to think that fish and game are looking out for the wellness of our fish and game(cause that would be what there employed to do). but it really makes me wonder what is really driving there decision making. no i didnt take college courses in wildlife biology and management, but i do as others do and pay attention year after year to all the changes in the woods and regulations and see fish and game as back seat wannabe drivers. (you wouldn't dare say anything negative about the upcoming season as to cut your own throat on resident and non-res. dollars). you wait til after the season and say " due to the lack of harvest and hunter reports animals numbers are down or winterkill was more than expected." but then in the spring all the cows and does have given birth to twins and triplets so hunting should be good!!! the wolf numbers have increased by only 2 this year and grizzlies and black bears dont eat moose anymore just huckelberries, cuz they taste so much better.(studies show). :)mt. lions aren't an issue cuz who sees them, however many are out there they cant be doing anything bad. since poaching has been linked as the main cause for cancer that hasn't been a problem either....
we had record snowfalls up here in the panhandle last year..(broke snowfall records made since the early 1900's) but we didnt have any winterkill issues because there were feeding stations every couple miles, deer trails were routinely shoveled and plowed (depending on terrain of course) and there were guarded crosswalks for when they wanted to cross the road day or night..
i do see alot of deer up here but, given the amount of ground, cover, food and shelter it could deffinately be better.

sorry .. just venting.... i would have no problem shortning the season to better the herd. either permanently or temporarily. whatever the population needed. if someone cant kill a deer in a 50 day rifle season and 45 days of bow season. then maybe hunting might just not be your sport. i dont know how it is for the folks down in southern idaho if 2 or 3 weeks are enough or not.
just my 2 cents, sorry if i offended anyone or made you cry.:)
 
I'm in Southern Idaho and deer hunting has taken a bad tumble since the early 90's, the trend was going down before then. I don't think shortening the season is a good thing. It will put more people in the field at one time. I'm not a fan of choose your weapon, but that maybe the way to go. It's easy to do if they go to mostly controlled hunts.
 
Yeah, I've talked to several officers and they all say the herds are in great shape. I call bulls**t. I think the Idaho fish and game is one of the greediest orginizations around.
I think most hunts should close on the 24th. The migration leaves deer too vulnerable to lazy hunters. I also like the idea of less out of state tags. Maybe make more units 4 point and better.
I don't know but something has to change soon! I've lost respect for the Fish and Game. They are supposed to manage wildlife and they are treating in like a product.
 
I recently ran into a group of hunters from out of state and the way they put it was that Idaho is kind of a back-up plan, when they don't draw in their home states because it's so easy to get tags here.maybe those states are on to something?hmmmm
 
I never did understand why they changed the opener statewide from Oct 5 to Oct 10. If anything they should have taken time off the end of the season when deer are more vulnerable. The seasons statewide should be Oct 5-24 or Oct 1-24. After the 24th we are interfering with the pre-rut.

There are some studies that say making sure does are bred at the appropriate time is one of the most important things for a healthy herd. Because if that doe is not bred the first time around it takes 20-21 for her to come into her second cycle. Which will make the fawn be born later and be that much weaker going into the next winter. Which will affect the next years crop of two points that 80% of hunters kill.

just my thoughts
 
Also If people complain about losing that last week of the season start a dedicated hunter program like Utah does that would reward dedicated hunters with extended seasons or other benefits.

Dedicated hunter program:
-Hunters pay a little more for tags
-volunteer their time; planting bitterbrush on the winter range, helping with hunters education, etc.
-or predator control

What I mean by predator control is: If you kill a cougar that fall or winter you can hunt the last week of the next season. Might be a little radical but it would sure help the deer.

I don't agree with all of utah's dedicated hunter program but there is some good there for sure.
Check it out.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/dh/overview.php
 
This is such a touchy issue, you cannot please everybody, but I agree about the 2 point only, like the owyhee hunts... I think they could charge non resi's a atv permit to use a atv in the state, it could pay for a few more officers to enforce the atv/ohv regs. I think all non resis should be a draw tag, and charged the application fee, and before everyone starts crying foul, yeah it sounds crappy but if you want to come to this state and hunt, look at it this way, it helps the wildlife, and our non resi fees aren't that bad.. Also, if you've never seen the turnouts at the local commission meetings, there really aren't enough people there speaking their mind, and coming up with solutions. If you want change make your voice be heard....
 
I hunted unit 32a opening weekend and last weekend.I came through fish and games check station in unit 32 outside of emmett.They had 300 people come thru saturday after all the numbers were crunched it ended up being a 7% success rate.Almost every pickup had a a four wheeler in it or were pulling a trailer with three or four on it.The deer are GONE.You also have to appreciate f+g position.If you limit hunting by going permit only ,how many new hunters are going to get turned off by having to wait multiple years to draw a tag?thus essentially killing the sport and letting the greenies win.We have obviously hunted areas into annihilation.I don't know what the answer is but know where we can start.(PREDATOR CONTROL)
 
As a former resident and lifetime license holder I respectfully disagree with increasing or limiting out-of-state fees and tags. I was a fish and game vendor and attended many F&G meetings. Out-of-staters provide most of the revenue and hunt the least. They come for the first week and most are gone within 7 days. They only kill about 10% of the harvest. If you increase their fee or limit the tag who do you think will have to make up that revenue. Yes Idaho residents.
Tag fees have already eliminated a lot of average Joes who can not afford them. Being on Soc. Sec. I have to save all year for my tags (and I have a lifetime license). Soon hunting will be for only the rich. Real hard to get a poor redneck kid into hunting that way.

Just my humble opinion
PS: Just returned from unit 14 and didn't see many deer or elk, but did see a lot of wolf tracks.
 
As far as the F&G meetings go, I live a long ways from Boise and it usually isn't practical to attend, but I have sent dozens of e-mails and I know many others who have. Last year when they composed the mule deer initiative, most people I knew were calling for shorter seasons, or point restrictions. So the F&G, made most seasons longer, and increased the number of out of state tags. When we asked why, they told us because most people said they want to be able to kill a deer every year regarless of size. So instead of doing there job and managing wild life, they caved to the wishes of those who refuse to see the problem.
 
In my general season unit, in a huge basin, I used to see 6 to 10 bulls and or bucks a day pre-season scouting. I'd almost always have a chance at decent mulies and elk on opening day if not then in the days that follow. Now, I haven't seen a buck or a bull in 3 seasons. Not before, during or after the seasons...No animals! Mature...immature...nothing...no animals.

The habitat is still great in every aspect. Theres plenty of water, escape cover, forage, its got everything...except animals.
For the past 3 seasons I have tried to figure out why, and it's just so simple...Poor Management on all the issues stated by everyone else in this thread, everything from managing preadators, game, seasons, people, money, it all plays a role. Wildlife management in my general season unit is non-existent.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-21-08 AT 02:10PM (MST)[p]Don't even start with the "controlled only" option...............Myself and most other Idaho hunters will fight tooth and nail against that. Hunting is far from the worst threat to deer herds................You can't control the biggest factor.....weather. You wanna kill predators be my guest. Stop developing winter range and migration corridors.? Don't screw with hunter opportunity....except for maybe some of those late as hell winter range hunts.........
 
no one wants draw only hunting. That's why we have to take smaller steps now. For instance, in many units, deer start migrating before the end of October because they have a long travel ahead of them. They also start getting a little dumber as the rut nears. If seasons closed on the 24th, a more deer would stand a chance. If a guy can't find a buck without exploiting those disadvantages, then maybe he shouldn't hunt.
 
Fellas,

I'm glad someone finally brought this up. I was beginning to think our group was losing their deer hunting skills.

Step 1. eliminate "left over" non-resident deer tags as extras. If 12,000 individual people want to come to Idaho and hunt, let them. They all pay the regular non-resident price and come hunt. Each paying for fuel and groceries and lodging, etc. Residents should get 1 tag and that's it. Non-residents should be allowed one tag and that's it. Seeing a camp of 6 guys, each with 2 tags HUNTING THE SAME AREAS is going to devastate deer no doubt. These same guys are there year after year. If the 2 tags system is allowed, the tags need to be used in DIFFERENT UNITS or each is only valid for 1 particular season and 1 particular unit (meaning you can't use 2 tags in the same unit and the same season).

OR--- Make some of the more susceptible "migration" units an "unlimited draw" where you commit to this tag up front. You are guaranteed to get the tag, but you have to put all your marbles in one sack. If the weather is blue sky 70 and sunny, you might lose. Fair gamble. Most hunters are opportunists and when it snows 10 inches in Challis on the 21st of October, there are trucks and 4 wheelers lined up to try and intercept the deer headed out of the high country. The guys who gambled on this up front are the ones who should benefit. It will help manage the pressure a bit as well.

OR--Break the seasons into A and B tags kinda like elk. Oct 10-24th is one tag and the 25-31st is a second tag and make them unit specific like ELK zones. Also fits with the unlimited draws which admittedly will RESTRICT hunting a bit, but it is mandatory that something be sacrificed to bring our mule deer back.

In years when the deer harvest is fair, the late archery hunts are fun to hunt and you really only get the die hards out there. Watch out this year. Anyone whose brother has a bow and who can afford a tank of gas will be on the mountain this November on these late hunts---trying to fill that tag.

Step 2 goes without saying, but any predator unmanaged is going to have an impact. Control wolves.

Step 3 TRY to manage the hunts for all interests. Those who want the 2 point hunts and doe hunts are meat hunters and they don't want to get out of the truck. Make these hunts for youth and seniors and a few draw tags for those who fit this mold.

Step 4 Manage the ATV's. This is going to upset some but unfortunately it's the truth. Some of my favorite hunting spots now have 4 wheeler trails blazed to the top of the ridge and down the creek bottom of the canyons. The more habitat that has access to it other than by foot (ie less places to hide), the more animals are going to be harvested.

Certainly there are more issues and some will likely disagree with my opinions, and that's fine. I can only urge anyone who feels strongly about this, to take it to heart and ATTEND THE FISH AND GAME COMMISSIONERS MEETINGS WHEN THEY COME TO YOUR TOWN.

We can't have it all. Sorry for rambling. See you die hards at the "Fish and Game Town Hall Meetings this winter".

Monte
[email protected]
 
I can't agree more with muleybucks. All of his points are valid, especially meeting with the fish and game. There is no doubt F&g are in a difficult position. Some of you may have noticed that the Salmon region units close on the 24th. A few years back, Salmon F&G met with a few locals and listned to their concerns on the 10th- 31st season. Next year and from then on, the season has closed on the 24th. I must say, I have a lot of respect for the people at the Salmon office, they are great to work with and care about Salmon's wildlife.
 
I went to a F&G public meeting once. Unfortunately it was when they changing the rules on muzzleloaders. So it was 2 hours of old men arguing about inferior projectiles, powder and ignitions systems. Myself and two friends were the only people there with deer concerns, which went unrecognized.

What I'm trying to say is maybe I can get a hold of Brad Compton (if he is still the big game director) and see if he would be willing to hold an emergency meeting (agenda:Mule deer only) after the slaughter season is over to address all of our concerns. He will probably want to wait until all the harvest data is in so he will have a better idea of just how bad things really are. Its worth a shot, because we probably won't get anything done ranting and raving on the forum.
 
>Fellas,
>
>I'm glad someone finally brought this
>up. I was beginning to
>think our group was losing
>their deer hunting skills.
>
>Step 1. eliminate "left over" non-resident
>deer tags as extras. If
>12,000 individual people want to
>come to Idaho and hunt,
>let them. They all pay
>the regular non-resident price and
>come hunt. Each paying for
>fuel and groceries and lodging,
>etc. Residents should get 1
>tag and that's it. Non-residents
>should be allowed one tag
>and that's it. Seeing a
>camp of 6 guys, each
>with 2 tags HUNTING THE
>SAME AREAS is going to
>devastate deer no doubt. These
>same guys are there year
>after year. If the 2
>tags system is allowed, the
>tags need to be used
>in DIFFERENT UNITS or each
>is only valid for 1
>particular season and 1 particular
>unit (meaning you can't use
>2 tags in the same
>unit and the same season).
>
>
>OR--- Make some of the more
>susceptible "migration" units an "unlimited
>draw" where you commit to
>this tag up front. You
>are guaranteed to get the
>tag, but you have to
>put all your marbles in
>one sack. If the weather
>is blue sky 70 and
>sunny, you might lose. Fair
>gamble. Most hunters are opportunists
>and when it snows 10
>inches in Challis on the
>21st of October, there are
>trucks and 4 wheelers lined
>up to try and intercept
>the deer headed out of
>the high country. The guys
>who gambled on this up
>front are the ones who
>should benefit. It will help
>manage the pressure a bit
>as well.
>
>OR--Break the seasons into A and
>B tags kinda like elk.
>Oct 10-24th is one tag
>and the 25-31st is a
>second tag and make them
>unit specific like ELK zones.
>Also fits with the unlimited
>draws which admittedly will RESTRICT
>hunting a bit, but it
>is mandatory that something be
>sacrificed to bring our mule
>deer back.
>
>In years when the deer harvest
>is fair, the late archery
>hunts are fun to hunt
>and you really only get
>the die hards out there.
>Watch out this year. Anyone
>whose brother has a bow
>and who can afford a
>tank of gas will be
>on the mountain this November
>on these late hunts---trying to
>fill that tag.
>
>Step 2 goes without saying, but
>any predator unmanaged is going
>to have an impact. Control
>wolves.
>
>Step 3 TRY to manage the
>hunts for all interests. Those
>who want the 2 point
>hunts and doe hunts are
>meat hunters and they don't
>want to get out of
>the truck. Make these hunts
>for youth and seniors and
>a few draw tags for
>those who fit this mold.
>
>
>Step 4 Manage the ATV's. This
>is going to upset some
>but unfortunately it's the truth.
>Some of my favorite hunting
>spots now have 4 wheeler
>trails blazed to the top
>of the ridge and down
>the creek bottom of the
>canyons. The more habitat that
>has access to it other
>than by foot (ie less
>places to hide), the more
>animals are going to be
>harvested.
>
>Certainly there are more issues and
>some will likely disagree with
>my opinions, and that's fine.
>I can only urge anyone
>who feels strongly about this,
>to take it to heart
>and ATTEND THE FISH AND
>GAME COMMISSIONERS MEETINGS WHEN THEY
>COME TO YOUR TOWN.
>
>We can't have it all. Sorry
>for rambling. See you die
>hards at the "Fish and
>Game Town Hall Meetings this
>winter".
>
>Monte
>[email protected]

I wholeheartedly agree with Muleybucks.... and think that item #1 should be expanded to include whitetail. The camps with extra tags is happening every year in the Lolo area and after this past Winter in this area the deer will not support it.
Just my 2 cents worth.



Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
 
There really is no one answer for the state that our mule deer herds are in. It was said by someone earlier. " you can't please everyone"

Until the Fish and Game get off the "oppertunity" kick we will continue on a downward sprial. Oppertunity is good in moderation.

over oppertunity such as general season hunts that don't end until oct 31st.

Over oppertunity such as offering a non resident tag quota of 15,000 over the counter tags.

Over oppertunity such as double dipping in units with general tags and late season permits.

Over oppertunity such as extended either sex permits in units on top of Late tags and general tags.

the list really goes on and on!!!!!!!!!!

Idaho is selling oppertunity we don't have. Its like mcdonalds running out of big macs after you've payed for one. Really it's as bad or worse then we think.

I've brought these concerns up at several meetings. i get the same asnswer. "you can't stock pile mule deer" I agree with this to a point. however it does not mean we have to offer more oppertunity then we currently have.

So much for the "Mule Deer Inititive" That was too increase population and everything good for mule deer. It's not too late to do something about it however I don't feel they will ever change it. MONEY MONEY MONEY!!!
 
Most this stuff is alarmist.....................Why dont we just quit hunting? You guys wanna cut your own throats. now the whitetails are in jeopardy...........give me a break.
 
Man guys! You have to remember that we are coming off a devestating winter kill. This is the first year for the new Mule Deer Initiative. Give it a chance to work before talking about scrapping it. We all know wolves are having a huge impact too. That is not F&G's fault either. They support wolf hunts and shoot on sight areas. That is out of their hands (for now).

Cutting opportunity only cuts your own throat in the future. When we lose hunters we lose funds, and numbers of voters to support our continued hunting heritage. We need the next generation of hunters,and the next, and the next etc. If dad can't take his kids out hunting when they are young how many are going to pick it up later in life? Those are the memories that are made that hooked us all.

If you are concerned about the outlook. Don't hunt until you are happier. Don't buy that second tag. Get a doe tag. Leave the quads at home. Hunt only one state (how many deer can you eat in a year?)

Not every hunter feels the need to shoot a 180 buck and we have to remember that too. We are actually the minority (trophy hunters). And yes, I put myself in that category too even though I have no 180's (yet).

Mike Henne
 
Mike,

I'm not trying to doom and gloom, but the F&G knew very well what kind of winter kill we had. I rode around with them on the winter range. 90% mortality on fawns in several of the southeast herds. 100% in others!!!!!!!!!!

Still OPPERTUNITY out our ears.

I'm in that same catergory. I've shot several 180 class bucks. I know im in the minority but what happens if we have back to back 90% mortality winters. What about next October?

Cut oppertunity when needed. I'm all about offering an experience to everyone most of the time, but we all and the Department need to realize that it can't be all the time.
 
bad winter or not, the numbers have been declining for years. And because there was a bad winter, the F&G should adjust accordingly. To follow a hard winter kill by giving more tags and lengthening seasons is just stupid and greedy. There are ways for everyone to hunt without killing the herd. I like muleybucks ideas. Maybe we should look at Colorado
 
F&G cannot regulate the winter, and they cannot regulate the predators (courts do that for them). That leaves us. General tags as we know them will likely be a thing of the past, IMO.

Keep in minde F&G is only one slice of the pie. There are many agencies, most Federal, who also play a part, directly or indirectly, in "managing" the game. BLM, USFW, USFS, courts, all have different priorities which often clash with those of F&G. Wolves are a great example. How can a single agency manage big game when another, completely exempt from local oversight, can introduce a predator which uses our big game as a food source?? The bueauracratic equivalent of giving Idaho the finger and saying, "our animals are more important than yours, your elk and deer are only wolf chow."

Other clashes are land use, private property development, ESA, logging, grazing, basically big game ranks pretty low on the list.
 
OK Fellas,

We're on the right path here with some good ideas. I want to make one comment about youth recruitment into hunting. I agree this is a necessity and true, some of my best experiences were as a youth hunting. But, arguably, the deer hunting in Idaho when I was a youth (20 years ago) was passing 2 points on the side of the trail waiting for a mature 4 point.

Recruiting youth hunters with a positive experience is partly the premise behind me being irritated at the current situation. I follow the belief that taking a doe deer will actually take 2-3 deer, so I don't buy into killing does personally. This is somewhat different for a first time hunter, or a senior who needs some meat, but agiain, that's a personal opinion. So, as a dedicated mule deer hunter being 2-3 miles from the nearest road only to see a couple of 2 points frustrates me. How many "youth" hunters are going to ENJOY this experience with dad or Uncle? I know my experience this year is a blip on the radar and doesn't necessariliy account for everyone and the entire state. However, I received an email yesterday from a F&G CO which stated "We are checking very few mature mule deer this year all across the state so you are not alone."

There is no doubt that we need to have recruitment opportunities for youth. Perhaps Idaho explores options like I am told exists in Nevada, where a youth hunter has a greater chance to draw limited entry tags than the average hunter. This improves the experience and decreases the need to hike 2-3 miles off the beaten path to possibly get a chance at a 2 point. The latter is not an experience I wish to engrain into my 12 year old's mind and truthfully, I doubt many of you as "experienced hunters" would find this experience an ideal way to introduce a kid to hunting.

Keep the ideas flowing. This topic will no doubt raise its head this winter at the Fish and Game Town Hall Meetings.

Thanks again for the ideas.
Monte
 
This is only my first year hunting in Idaho and my second year living here. So I don't have a whole lot of answers or ideas.

I've put a lot, hundreds, of miles on my boots this season and in summer scouting as well.
I saw 1 fawn this year, in September.

So far this season I've seen only one or two mature bucks. They could be the same animal.

I've seen 2 immature bucks. They were together.

Opening day I saw 9 muley does. Yesterday I think I saw 7.

I've seen scat and heard howling pretty much everyday.

I've seen absolute desecration of land by ATV's. They have no respect at all for signs. They even shoot them to bits. They do
leave lots of beer cans around for me to shoot at with my .22LR on my off days from hunting. Not that I need the extra exercise of carrying someone else's garbage out of the woods. But I do.

I ran into an old timer that told me that this first time in over 70 yrs. that he hasn't filled his tags in the first day or two of the season. He seemed pretty down about not getting an elk. He didn't seem to hopeful about getting a deer. He was on an ATV and seemed to think that the ATV's, trucks and wolves were the problem.

Now I know first hand why all my buddies hunt in Wyoming.


The more people I meet the more I like my dogs
 
i agree with a lot of what is being said. Hell, try anything, at least we would be trying something. if it doesnt work, stop. if it does, keep doing it. what F&G should NOT do is listen to public questionaires. it is the F&G job to do what is right first, then listen to the public. Plus, their questions are the most stupid questions to ask anyway. Of course i WANT to hunt every year, of course i WANT TO SHOOT A 4 POINT EVERY YEAR, these are stupid questions. would i sacrifice for better quality , hell yes, but that isnt what they were even asking.

that survey is over and done with now...

one thing i whole heartedly disagree with is hunting pressure does not hurt the herds......BS! we all know who has the biggest, best herds in the country...CO. Hands down. You know how they got that, buy cutting the tags, not by changing the weather. Yes weather takes a big toll, but hunting pressure certainly does too.

the ideas i like best to save the herds are cutting the general seasons into an early or late and making hunters pick one.

another is make it like the elk and pick a zone or even just a unit and stick to it. here in idaho you can hunt on a general tag from mid september to mid december! Unheard of in most states.

anyway, im sure your all tired of reading this, but i support change. try anything, lets see if it works! we cant do much worse.

travis
 
Muleybucks should be our F&G commisioner. Seriously i like where you are going.


"Most hunters are content with just hunting, regardless of the experience." That's Idaho's slogan.

If you talk to some of the co's and biologist they keep bringing up the servey. Come on!! like someone else just said of course we want to hunt everywhere for everything all year long. doesen't mean that's what's best for the rescource.

Let's all try to make it out to the meetings. if you live in a small town or community get in touch with the officers around you. most likely they will let you put together a small meeting such as they did in the Salmon Region. Most of these guys are pretty good. They really don't have that much pull is the problem.
 
yeah............enjoy your five day season in colorado............ then comes the next group for "second season". Then the next for "third season".................. Or operate like Nevada.....where residents can hope to draw a marginal tag every three years or so...........or just as likely NEVER draw a high profile unit.......The second Idaho move this direction I'm done.................I'll hunt every year till they tell me I cant then I'll hang it up.........I'll fight against any more loss of opportunity.....I don't care what is being said here Idaho has PLENTY of animals left......I've seen good numbers of Elk and mule deer so far this season as usual.............and extremely light pressure where i've been. I guarantee next month when hunting whitetails, they'll be thick as hell as usual..............If you guys are willing why dont you just not hunt? make a personal commitment to not take a deer for a few years.........that'll help as much as anything being tossed around here.........
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-08 AT 06:05PM (MST)[p]So, nothing said so far works for you Gemjake? I have seen a few posts that will work. Are you one of those folks that wants to hunt the deer to extinction?
'The second Idaho move this direction I'm done.................I'll hunt every year till they tell me I cant then I'll hang it up.........I'll fight against any more loss of opportunity.....I don't care what is being said here Idaho has PLENTY of animals left......I've seen good numbers of Elk and mule deer so far this season as usual.............and extremely light pressure where i've been.'
So just where are you hunting where you have seen abundent elk and deer numbers... in you dreams perhaps. So why don't you take all of us to your 'head up in the clouds' honey hole. I call BS. Funny how YOU are the only one seeing all these animals. Everyone else is seeing little to no game. Take us out and show us the abundunce. B.S.!
Oh wait... a private ranch perhaps...
 
gemstatejake, with all do respect, guys like you, in commen with the F&G, are the problem. You're not willing to comprimise at all. If we have it your way, yes we'll be able to hunt as much as we want for a few more years, then they'll have to shut it down completely, but you don't mind as long as you get your years in right?
 
With all due respect the two of you are full of #####.........I've done nothing but compromise for years........you people complainiong about a lack of animals spend too much time on this site......go hunt. They're out there...........................
 
Who needs to get in a name calling match. It seems like if you were such a great huner, you could get it done with a shorter season. I know I can. I harvest good animals regularly, but I can still recognize a problem. Think about the future, not just yourself
 
topper I hear you and I know where your coming from..................I disagree in principle but i understand and respect your point of view.............bowhunt on the other hand can GFH....................
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-08 AT 09:44PM (MST)[p]So topper...........just how much time should we knock off the season? what would make you happy? This is'nt just a reaction to a few deer being killed late last year is it? That wont happen this year...........no weather since the opener and none likely next week means bucks wont be concentrated in easy to get to spots......couple that with a moderate to mild winter (hopefully) and deer numbers will rebound........


And your right, I'm like alot of you....I could have filled a tag multiple times this season but thats not what it's all about for me anymore. I like to spend as much time as possible in the mountains with a rifle in my hands..........hunting...thats what it's all about.......but some guys did'nt see enough game this year so they want to take that right away...................No.......... i'll fight that and voice my disaproval regardless.

Like I've said before, conservation is great and I'm all for it if there is a legit biological need........and i know some areas in the state are hurting, some that have traditionally been top producers both in numbers and trophy quality............others are not and will rebound.

This alarmist attitude and misdirected anger/concern/frustration will result in conserving us right out of hunting someday..........
 
Gem, you need a serious wake up call. Grow up, name calling. As for telling me to go F myself.. right back at you. You have a serious anger problem. Get off your high horse. I've read all your posts, for gods sake, get a life! Name calling and bitching like your the king of all mankind sure puts you into prespective. I knew responding to you would bring out your inner ##### once again. Wow, shocker, gemstatejake makes it personal. We have a problem here jake? Obviously we do if you tell me to, what was it, GFM. DILLIGAF.
I guess no one is allowed an opinion here and if you don't agree with jake, don't bother posting. Give me a break. Quit picking fights like a little kid. For gods sake, try to stay on topic here. We can have a constructive disagreement without the name calling.
 
No one will argue that mule deer are declining - its a national trend. However, to cry for dramatic measures in a down year is silly. Who was crying last year when the deer were concentrated late in the season and easy to hunt? Also, killing bucks should have no impact on the deer population - does will get bred by the remaining bucks (you know - the smart ones).

I'm seeing deer while I'm elk hunting. Mostly small bucks I don't want to shoot but also plenty of does. I think most people don't want to get out of their truck or off their ATV to hunt.

The new cry of the ATV Hunter: Where are all of the Deaf, Blind and Dumb Mule Deer?
 
Yeah, I made it personal......just as soon as you called me a liar....................Everything was cool till then........I disagree with just about everything you've ever said on here. how's that? BTW I had no idea you were a woman....would'nt have been so harsh if I'd known that............you don't come off as a female.

Now I'm out........the mountains be calling me.................
 
One plus to the last post... no name calling.
So what all have I said on here other than we have an atv problem in the state, elk and deer numbers in some parts of Idaho are down, and I hate wolves. You disagree on all that?
I don't know if me not coming off as a female is a good thing or a bad one... ???
I will say this, good luck to you on your hunt. I would never wish a bad hunt on anyone.
 
It doesent have to be a big drastic change.


change the season to Oct 5th-24th. nothing drastic about that.

stop killing does.

quit giving either sex hunts in units that already have general and late tags.

lower the number of out of state tags.

there is nothing drastic about any of those.

as far as getting out and hunting you have no idea.
 
RE: Here's the numbers.

Ok hunters, here it is. The numbers in SE Idaho for the first two weekends of Deer hunting from Fish and Game.

490245ce5712ce4b.jpg
 
how about this:
the number of out of state tags should be cut in half, then on the remaining tags the F&G double the price. instead of $258.50 they charge $500.00 this would make up for the lost fees while cutting the tags avalible. if someone is going to spend $1000.00+ to come to Idaho to hunt whats another $250.00? also these tags are only allowed to be used on 4 point bucks or bigger, there sould not be a problem with that. thus no small bucks getting killed.
next stop killing all the does! if you take into account all the deer that winter on the bennett hills, units 43,48,49,44,45 you have 1,100 doe tags. if you have a harvest rate of 50% thats 550 does not on the winter range. if you say that killing 1 doe equals killing 2 fawns thats 1,100 deer that will not be on the hills the following year! thats just on one winter range- this does not include area 39 with 1200 doe tags, if you say that the habitat can't withhold that many deer look at the "Golden years" deer were everywhere, or so i'm told by many old timers and habitat was not even discussed.
maybe another idea, and i can already see your objections but, you put in for unlimited draws but you put in for tags that are 2 point or smaller for kids and meat hunters, and 3 point+ for the horn hunters designating that you are a true meat hunter, or horn hunter.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-08 AT 08:41PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-08 AT 08:31?PM (MST)

The banner years of deer were when elk were low in numbers. Elk out compete deer for food, especially in winter range. They can also drive them out of habitat if the food sources are limited.
Elk are also the cash crop, and you will continue to see them managed for more numbers. So more elk = less mule deer.

Other than that, I would say get rid of rifle Rut hunts for mule deer in this day of technology, they are way too vulnerable to modern methods at these times. Also give liberal archery and muzzleloader seasons, or even shotgun slug for hunter opportunity. Limited quota rifle hunts.

Sorry modern day rifle hunters, your time for general mule deer hunts has long past. Too many good hunters in the field with too much innovation. ( Don't get me wrong, I'm a person who enjoys rifle hunting mule deer, I just know it can't work anymore for general hunts))
 
I live in Utah, but pay nearly $500.00 a year to hunt deer in Idaho. My wife also gets a tag, and we have killed only one buck in Idaho so far. Idaho wildlife gained $1000.00 for my taking of one buck.

Are you sure you want to get rid of non-Resident hunters? It is going to be really hard for residents to make that up.

I own and use an ATV, but I'm disgusted at the number of people who break the law on them. I have not seen a fish cop yet this year, in 12 days of hunting.

One more thing, the opening of the Southeast Region absolutely decimated the hunt, I'll not be sending my money to Idaho next year. IDFG ruined it.
 
More good info.

Let's switch gears a little bit.

FOR ANYONE WHO HAD A POOR EXPERIENCE IN A GENERAL HUNT IN IDAHO:
1. WHAT WAS THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM (ATV RULES/LACK OF LARGE DEER TO FILL YOUR TAG, ETC. ETC.)?

2. WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO "SACRIFICE" TO CHANGE THIS (IF ANYTHING"?

I'll start. PLEASE ADDRESSS THIS RELATIVE TO GENERAL ONLY HUNTS.

1a. I would say that much of the "pressure" I am seeing is created by "too much opportunity". I believe, in part, the cost of the non-resident tags is too low (should be $350+ for deer, and $450+ for elk). Fewer non-residents will come and thus, fewer deer will be taken. OR the same number will come, but they will go home earlier whey they kill their first deer. In most years, I personally won't "fill" my tag just to have meat in the freezer. I do, on occasion, not fill my tag and am happy making that sacrifice. I am a business person and if the "DEMAND IS GREATER THAN THE SUPPLY" (ie elk and deer tags sell out before the seasons even open) and you sell out of a LIMITED quantity item (ie can't increase the quantity), your price is too low. PERIOD. RAISE THE PRICE!

2a. Raise the cost of the non-resident tag to $350 and only allow one per hunter, or add the requirement that you have to use it in another "hunt" or another "unit" altogether.

1b. ATV's have ruined some of my best "hike in hunts". Lazy hunters have "ridge rode" all the way to the hotspots. These so called trails don't exist and nobody enforces the rules. I have photos of a couple this year (got closeups of the registration stickers for Fish and Game). We'll see what happens.

2b. Enforce the ATV rules. Period.

1c. Killing does provides opportunities for meat hunters such as kids and seniors.

2c. Give these tags in moderation to open October 1 or 5th and make them draws for kids and seniors. Let many of these folks exit this hills before the other general deer seasons open.

I could go on and on, but those are the biggest (and most realistic to change in the short term) in my opinion.

Please post your thoughts. I like to hunt and would be willing to use a muzzleloader from October 25-31 to hunt when the deer are more "susceptible due to the rut".

ALL IN ALL, seeing 18-20 inch 4 points get harvested by guys trying to "FILL THEIR TAG" to have something to take back to WA/CA/OR/NV etc. does them or me or you NO GOOD if their true desire is to take a TROPHY animal. Hundreds, possibly thousands, of these bucks are taken each year because they are the "best they could find" so they got shot.

Perhaps 3 seasons. Youth and senior doe and 2 point hunt. Season 2 is a legal buck Oct 10-25. Season 3 is the 25-31, 4 point minimum, possibly with a weapon restriction such as a muzzleloader.

I saw in the regs this year an "unlimited draw" for 36A due to the vulnerability of the migration/rut bucks. There are guys hunting in this area with a "nonresident extra" tag from the 10-24th, who drew the unlimited tag. There are folks who will eat 2 nonresident tags this year and it might sting. They gambled up front that 2008 would be like other years and the weather hasn't cooperated (or the deer are in trouble here also).

Be honest and keep this on track, Please.

Thanks to everyone for all the info.
Monte
[email protected]
 
I've had a pretty lackluster season so far.

I'm willing to give up the opportunity to hunt mule deer altogether for as long as it takes.

I was astounded at how inexpensive non-resident tags were. That is almost insulting to residents. I saw a lot of immature bucks on vehicles and ATV's by non-residents. I am by no means a trophy hunter. Let them at least grow up!

The ATV problem is out of control. On Saturday morning I was positioning myself for a shot on a decent buck when 3 teens roared up on ATV's, jumped off and started flinging lead at them. I was in an area where there is no motorcycle or ATV/UTV use allowed. They hit 2 does. Not ethical kills by any stretch. Then didn't know how to dress them. Basically, I dressed their deer!
So on top of the ATV problem there needs to be some regulating of youth hunts.IMO Hunting from a motorized vehicle isn't hunting!
Unless you are physically handicapped there is no reason to be driving around in the woods. Yesterday afternoon while grouse hunting my dog and I were almost hit by a UTV and the driver made no effort to slow down at all.

The more people I meet the more I like my dogs
 
If you want to learn something then you want to learn it from the best people around. Same with managing deer herds. Colorado is the state we need to copy. They control the hunting numbers in every unit. You have to pick 1 unit and 1 seven to ten day hunt and thats your deer hunt. Then you do the same with Elk. They are killing huge bucks in just about every region. That 300" buck was killed in on of these less known areas. MULEYBUCKS AND TOPPER started us in the right direction. It only took Colorado 2 to 3 years before they were see a huge number of mature bucks being harvested. As the deer numbers go up the number of tags go up, when the numbers of deer go done the number of tags go down. The 2point and 4 points seasons have never never never worked. Colorado already went through that. This is coming from a guy that just shot his biggest buck last year 190" and my 15 year old son just shot a 28 incher last Friday. I am not a fan of pereference points. After all that Colorado still has left over tags so anyone can hunt.
 
I agree with most of what muleybucks has said, we need to keep opportunity for kids and seniors maybe with a general hunt because many casual hunters do not think to put their kids in for hunts in the spring. If they would make us pick an area and stick to it like the elk zones that would help and so would shortening the seasons. In the end there are options and IDF&G biologists should be allowed to make the decisions of what is best for the deer herds, not the accountants.
46cfa7275632b29c.jpg
 
Well since my last post on the 20th I have spent 5 more days in the field.I am still not finding decent Deer numbers.I do realize the weather has not been "Hunter Friendly", but I am hiking in the dark and staying in the field all day spending hours glassing areas that should hold Big Bucks or at least a doe.I have hunted in many different areas of the state with the same outcome in each.I think there has been alot of really good ideas that have come from this thread.I am headed out again tomorrow in hopes of finding a good buck.good luck to all.
Shawn
 
Just got back from my second mule deer outing..........saw quite a few deer, few bucks......nothing huge. did'nt shoot anything, so I guess did my part..see I can regulate myself without pushing a bunch of bull$hit regulations that infringe on someone else's opportunity. Like I said before why don't all you do-gooders just not shoot a buck for a few years?.......
 
did'nt your momma teach you any manners. I bet your are a joy to be around on a hunting trip telling everyone how great they are. Com do its just some ideas and I dont thing its as bad as people are saying either but I would like to see better bucks out there to.
 
I had one half day to deer hunt this year, so I grabbed the bivy gear and headed high into unit 39 monday evening. Tuesday morning I was immediately into deer and had passed on 5 bucks before I found a good one. Unfortunately I couldnt rise to the occassion, and shot right over his back! Around noon I spotted a pig, but he was another 1200 feet above me, bedded at the top of the mountain. If I had another day, I could have made the stalk, but he gets to live another day. Overall, I saw 30-40 deer and 7 bucks in my one morning of Idaho deer hunting. Because of my job, which I hate, I dont get much time to hunt, so I just look at the map, figure out where no one is dumb enough to hunt, and go there. It never fails. Now if I can figure out how to shoot straight!

On overall deer numbers, I did hear from some credible F&G sources that this last winter took a heavy toll on many deer herds in the state.
 
I would say there is an easy solution. First you need to find out what percentage of hunters want "quality" vs. "opportunity". Then Fish and Game devides the units up in that percentage. Those that want "opportunity" can get a general tag every year, But cannot apply for controlled hunts. Those that want "quality" can apply for controlled tags, but can't get a general tag when they don't draw. This solution would decrease the general season pressure and increase controlled hunt drawing odds at the same time.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-08 AT 01:36PM (MST)[p]I guess I'm in the minority but I like the system the way it is. Controlled hunts for the lucky ones and general season for the rest. Every year I have a chance to draw a great tag and if I don't draw, I can still hunt the general season.

The one thing I don't like is units 40,41, 42 two point only hunts. I wish there were more controlled tags given and the "two point only" rule go bye bye. I wish the season were in October rather than November as well. More tags, shorter season.

I just got back from a 3 day stint in the Sawtooths and didn't see any mature bucks. Saw plenty of does and 4 or 5 small bucks. Didn't fill my tag. Oh well, looking foward to archery in 39 in a couple of weeks.

Take a look at the buck IdahoBugler took during general season in the Mule Deer forum.
 
Helped friend with this buck had another same size stand around waiting for him for 5 minutes or so, I have a whitetail only tag. a 4 mile hike one way, they are out there.

zarin2520deer.jpg


Get your hunt on!!
tixs,lodging,for you
cruises,trips for her!
songdogtravel.com
 
The weather has turned and deer seem to be stacking up around my house. I guess they're not all dead - just up high and away from the ATV trails.
 
I had a big buck go bounding through my back yard the other day running away from hunters... I think he is still hanging around. If he stayed around my place he is. Too bad I filled my tag on an injured deer. Next year, If I see one injured, I'm calling my lil bro to come fill his tag.
Can't make everyone happy.
 
A lot of good points and suggestions have been raised here. But with all due respect, a lot of people are missing the real issue. The two factors that by far impact the deer and elk herds most negatively are rough winters and predators, two things that nobody in ID can control. We have had both recently in a bad way. As someone mentioned before, hunters are not the problem. That being said, there are common sense measures that F&G can impose onto hunters that can help the herds rebound.
It's NOT limiting out-of-staters who hunt the least and bring F&G the most funds.
It's NOT ATV?ers who run game out of an area into less accessible places.
It's NOT the long seasons that allow opportunity and flexibility for primarily resident hunters.
What it IS, is letting the females live so that they can have their calves/fawns and rebuild the herd. Would limiting or eliminating the antlerless harvest ruffle some feathers of the local meat hunters? Sure it would! But let's face it. There is no way the herds are going to rebound without decent calf/fawn recruitment and we're never going to get that if we keep killing the females.
Just my two cents worth from Unit 6, north Idaho.
God bless & happy hunting!
 
1992 was a bad winter, cut the deer herd in half. The deer herd before 2007 was still only half what it was before 1992. Why do we think that IDFG can bring back deer herds. They had 15 years to bring them back and they didn't. Now 2007 cut into the deer herd even more. It is way past time to go to a total draw. Or we will be having this same conversation 15 years from now.
 
>yeah.......deer hunting was GREAT in Colorado
>this year. LMAO.........

That's funny and true in the same breath. On my super Colorado hunt I was wishing I was back in Idaho. I swore I could find more deer in Idaho then I did in Colorado. It worked out but it seems the deer numbers were down everywhere. Just my 2 cents.

IB
 
>yeah.......deer hunting was GREAT in Colorado
>this year. LMAO.........

One thing you fail to realize is Colorado will count their deer and adjust the tags next year and seasons after. Idaho will never have the quality deer hunting that Colorado has.

We need less tags and defined weapon seasons and controlled hunts to go along with a bonus point system.
 
>
>We need less tags and defined
>weapon seasons and controlled hunts
>to go along with a
>bonus point system.


No we don't!
 
Then this is what you'll get quality/numbers wise and it is only going to continue to go downhill from here.
It's a shame that a state with such great potential and genetics can have such poor quality game herds and F$G management.
Enjoy
 
>>
>>We need less tags and defined
>>weapon seasons and controlled hunts
>>to go along with a
>>bonus point system.
>
>
>No we don't!

Well then what do you think we need?

Obviously with all these posts from different parts of the state the current plan/system isn't working

The more people I meet the more I like my dogs
 
laser range finders, military-style semi-auto hunting rifles, 1000 yard rifle setups, scoped muzzleloaders, 75 yard bow pins. Doesn't matter what do in game management, we can still harvest them easier and farther away than ever before. We need method and technology management too.
 
>laser range finders, military-style semi-auto hunting
>rifles, 1000 yard rifle setups,
>scoped muzzleloaders, 75 yard bow
>pins. Doesn't matter what do
>in game management, we can
>still harvest them easier and
>farther away than ever before.
>We need method and technology
>management too.


Good idea...... we will start hunting with rocks and sharp sticks next year.

Or how about doing a better job manageing the herds.
 
15 years ago I approached the Idaho F&G at meeting when the commissioners were there, with all these same problems to address before the demise of Mule deer would happen in Idaho. The same problems are here today, we just have less mule deer.
They looked at me like I was Charlie Brown's parents talking. I quit trying 10 years ago. Good luck guys. We can't even come close to agreeing on anything between us as the hunting community.
To sum up mule deer management in Idaho, Survey says.....
 
Scoped muzzleloaders? Nope...not in Idaho. Military style semi Autos? No one that I know of nor have I seen any in the field...........1000 yard rifles? I guess If what I see on TV can be believed they exist...I dont use one, nor does anyone I know...... I have'nt bought a rifle in like twenty years. One I hunt with regularly was manufactured in the '50s..........do those fall under your "modern" criteria?
 
Guess I am kinda the odd ball here as it seems most of you want more deer. Not sure if that is just numbers or trophy quality bucks. But I read some of the posts and I took it for wanting trophy quality deer. One thing everyone has got to remember is probably 80% of hunters out there do not care about horns. I believe I just looked and there are like 15,000+ members here from all over the US and that does not make up 1/100 th of the hunting population. Just because a few want trophy animals does not mean its good for all. I understand that other states have gone to other systems of hunting but how many hunters have we lost when it comes to that type of system. So that means loss of support for the hunting community. I talk to people while out hunting and if most will just listen (as I like talking to older hunters for stories and I like talking) I have heard that if hunting goes into a draw type they would quit hunting. I for one know it is true because most are our older hunters. They are the ones to me that started this hunting we have and taught everyone of us to be in the field. Funny most just go to get out and still be in the field hunting. But as long as they hunt they are out there. So how can a minimal amount of hunters dictate for the majority of the hunters what we should set up for seasons.Let the F&G set up the regs about them. They are trying to keep the majority of the people happy which seems they are.

As for residents buying NR tags and using them in the same areas. Whats the difference if a resident and a NR hunts there? NR's can buy 2 NR tags if they want to also. Residents still pay the higher prices. Does not mean that they get them lower prices. How about having people choose between 3 different seasons and have it archery, rifle, or Muzzloader and have to stick to that. Hey lets go a little further than that and say let make it they have to pick 1 unit to hunt and hunt it. Since I am a archery hunter and this would keep out the people that didnt harvest during rifle and keep the traffic off road and threw every prime spots deer bed up. I for one buy a NR tag because it keeps me out of my wifes hair for a few extra weeks.

All I can say is if your not seeing the numbers then its time to change states and go hunt elsewhere. Idaho does not have deer or elk and think it best to not have them. So the surrounding states have them. Go hunt there if your so happy with there seasons. Seems to me thats what it sounds like.
 
Then you're not the part of the problem Jake. Unless you use a laser rangefinder to make 400+ yard shots with your 50 year old gun. I carry one with me too, although mostly to see what distances are within my range. Why not be equipped with the latest stuff? I have a 4wd truck, gps, spotting scope , top of the line binos, good backpacking gear, access to guides or packers, two-way radios, satellite mapping, flat shooting guns and bow, motorcycle. I'm thinking I should get a 4 wheeler. I was looking thru Cabela's yesterday to see what else I could use.

It's funny, all these magazines and internet sites pump me up to hunt even harder and look for more things that might help find that giant buck.

Now, I don't kill many trophy class mule deer, but if I want to hunt mule deer for meat, it's no problem to harvest.
 
If we had a better deer herd and people where seeing and killing more big deer in the rifle hunts then maybe they would not be out there bothering you on your bow hunt and everyone would be happy. I am not sure what your point was? I think people just want more deer if we have more deer then we will have a few more bigger bucks. I totally do not want the points system, I still like that we all have the same chance at drawing a good tag every year.
 

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