Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

jm77

jm77

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Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

I received two 2012 Wyo hunter surveys(elk & deer) yesterday from a Wildlife Management Coordinator with G&F. They shed a lot of light on recent conversations here, including the fact that an overwhelming majority of both resident & nonresident elk & deer hunters support the current license structure, that includes the option to hunt special archery and regular seasons, over weapon specific tags. 75% of res elk hunters & 73% of res deer hunters prefer to leave licenses the way they are. NR hunters had similar support.
The deer survey even broke down responses from separate regions and the numbers were almost identical in every region. Apparently the pulse of Wyoming hunters cannot be determined by the folks who regularly attend G&F public meetings or G&F employees who run them.
These are not online, but I will try to copy & post.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

Thanks jm77 for the post.

A huge allure of Wyoming hunting IS the opportunity to hunt the special archery AND the regular rifle season!

I didn't receive the survey so I'm assuming it was a random sampling of hunters.

Let the voice of the 75% be heard!

Zeke
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

?ELK SURVEY "75% of residents and 73% of nonresidents stated they prefer the current regulations over regulations for which hunters must choose to hunt on a license valid for archery hunting only or to hunt on a license valid for firearm hunting only, but not both (p. 150). These results hold when respondents are separated into groups according to the type of weapon they primarily use when hunting elk."

DEER SURVEY? About three-quarters of residents (73%) and two-thirds of non-residents (68%) preferred current regulations related to archery seasons over a choose your weapon type approach (pp 156).
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

>Thanks jm77 for the post.
>
>A huge allure of Wyoming hunting
>IS the opportunity to hunt
>the special archery AND the
>regular rifle season!
>
>I didn't receive the survey so
>I'm assuming it was a
>random sampling of hunters.
>
>Let the voice of the 75%
>be heard!
>
>Zeke


Yes, random sampling done by Research Management for the Wy G&F.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

There is no question that the reason Wyoming sells out on nearly all of their NR tags is largely due to the quality of the game we have here.

But, I think another big part of it is the amount of opportunity afforded hunters. There is real value to NR (as well as R) hunters being given the opportunity to hunt both archery and rifle with the same tag. That seperates Wyoming from most other states that have a "choose your weapon" structure. It makes the Wyoming tags more desirable.

It allows NR hunters a lot of flexibility, in weapon choice and timing of when they can fit a hunt into schedules.

The data jm77 provided, proves the value in WY allowing hunters to participate in both archery and rifle seasons with ONE tag.

Wyoming needs to keep the current structure and squash the type-9 idea.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

You're exactly right Buzz. I really appreciated the 2 1/2 months I had for my moose tag. I had two big blizzards force me out of the area, but I had the time to adjust and come back a 3rd time. Plus the added bonus of enjoying the archery season. Most of my best trophies are from Wyoming. Its my go-to state.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

I like the fact that if i don't kill an Elk in my home state,i can by a type-6 unit 48 tag,and be able to hunt!
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

If the G&F got those kinds of percentages from everyone favoring the current license structure, it would appear very unlikely they will increase Type 9 A/O license like one member recently said was going to happen!
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

The survey for Elk 24 specifically, shows the opposite. Rawlins public meeting presentation docs.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

>If the G&F got those kinds
>of percentages from everyone favoring
>the current license structure, it
>would appear very unlikely they
>will increase Type 9 A/O
>license like one member recently
>said was going to happen!
>


I would agree, but lately between BOW and a number of 'archery only' enthusiasts(and possibly some some Dept employees) the conversation has found it's way to public meetings and some 'not so' public meetings.

That, coupled with the fact there are some type 9 tags already, has caused some G&F personel to say some things that perhaps were premature in nature. What's really interesting about this, is in the region where there are already type 9, the hunters surveyed had as big a majority against weapon specific tags as the rest of the state!

The numbers are growing that are being vocal against additional type 9 seasons.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-14 AT 11:34AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-14 AT 11:26?AM (MST)

>The survey for Elk 24 specifically,
>shows the opposite. Rawlins public
>meeting presentation docs.


Would like to see that, Game Warden Brady Frude from Rawlins said majority of survey fron Area 24 were against. Here's his quote:

"As far as the type 9 tag for Green Mtn goes, I have mixed feelings about it. There has been a public push for a "choose your weapon" season structure in Wyoming and this would be a step in that direction. Wildlife division admin has selected several
areas throughout the state that may be candidates for that first step and Green Mtn is one of them. While it would provide additional opportunity for those dedicated to archery hunting, I am kind of cynical about it. I think it may be a way for a very
small special interest (ie archers) to increase their drawing odds at coveted licenses. I feel that if I was able to implement it correctly I would need to propose issuing so few licenses to keep drawing odds similar to type 1 odds that it would be more
detrimental overall. I sent out a survey to 500 randomly chosen past area 24 license holders this winter and the data show that most folks are not clambering for this license type - especially when they consider the impacts to their potential for losing
archery opportunities when they hold type 1, 4 or 5 licenses. I get dozen of calls each year from residents that hunt ou of state and non-residents that come to Wyo that really appreciate the way our current structure allows them to hunt during the
regular rifle seasons if they are unsuccessful in the archery season. I think that we, in some part, are enabling some of the bad habits that archers are stereotyped for, like continuing to hunt after they wound an animal and do a poor job of following
up, but slob rifle hunters do the same thing. Like I said, I have mixed feelings about it..."
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

Just spoke with Brady Frude about survey and he told me the differences in mixed season compared to 'specific weapon' doesn't lend enough support to this idea.(type 9)

Also, a mail survey is not as valid as random, because those in favor of new proposals may be more likely than not to respond.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-14 AT 02:03PM (MST)[p]I guess what I see that is real disturbing in that 24-9 survey is that not even one in 3 people could take 2 minutes to respond to it. Those 2 out of 3 who didn't would probably be the first to be adamant bitchers if the tag disbursement was changed based on that less than 30% response rate.

jm77---Could you expand on that last comment in your last post please? Isn't the mail survey done at random and what is meant by "not as valid as random" if that's the only thing they really rely on to count up responses. I don't believe they take audience polls at meetings to come up with any actual number like they do on the mail survey do they?
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

TOPGUN,

The survey isnt done in a random way at all. The survey for the 24-9 presentation only considered hunters who have drawn elk tags in unit 24, the guy that conducted the survey said so.

Considering that last season 1301 Residents applied for 179 tags, its more than just a bit apparent that 1122 potential Resident hunters of this unit were never asked anything. Even further, they were never even considered for the survey.

Not sure that isolating past license holders for any survey, can ever be viewed as a "random sample".

To go one step further, I'm still unconvinced that past tag holders in any unit should be the ultimate litmus test to how the GF manages any hunting unit. In particular when draw odds in units like 24 are less than 15%.

How much can a hunter learn and understand about a unit, herd dynamics, carrying capacity, etc. etc. etc. when they draw it maybe 1-2 times every 15-20 years?

Nothing wrong with surveys, they can very insightful, but anytime you take randomness out of the equation, the sample if skewed from the get go.

Finally, if we're going to let our game be managed by either mob rule or a vocal minority...then why are we hiring and paying for biologists?

IMO, hunter satisfaction and the "needs" of hunters should be only one of many considerations when it comes to managing our wildlife, and certainly not the top of the list.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

Rather disingenuous to show those 24-9 slides at a public meeting I would say. After reading the last few posts It appears to be an attempt to lead the course of discussion towards a type 9 tag.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

>
>Finally, if we're going to let
>our game be managed by
>either mob rule or a
>vocal minority...then why are we
>hiring and paying for biologists?
>
>

I agree and furthermore it wasn't even mob rule since a true random sampling wasn't done.
There nothing wrong with taking the pulse but take it in such a manner that it really can be used as an indicator.
With that said, surveys should never trump sound management practices!
There's nothing more "fair" than drawing a tag and having a choice to hunt in your desired way!
It seems simple to me but I guess it's not. What's Wyoming's rush to look like every other State? The differences make Wyoming the great State that it is!!!
Zeke
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

>Rather disingenuous to show those 24-9
>slides at a public meeting
>I would say. After reading
>the last few posts It
>appears to be an attempt
>to lead the course of
>discussion towards a type 9
>tag.


I'm afraid you're right Bob. The more G&F employees I talk to, the closer I'm getting to the source in the Dept who's pushing this. But I must say of those I've spoke with, I either get a negative response to type 9 or I am led to believe they don't want them. To be clear, the Dept employees I've been dealing with to this point, have my respect.

This is actually becoming very interesting.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

> What's
>Wyoming's rush to look like
>every other State? The differences
>make Wyoming the great State
>that it is!!!
>Zeke

I couldn't agree with that anymore, Zeke
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-14 AT 04:35PM (MST)[p]There is no rush to do anything.
I used to hunt deer in Nevada when you just went down and bought a deer tag at the drug store, good for buck or doe.
It was some dang good hunting too. Better than you have these days

Now I wonder what happened? why on earth did they
become so restrictive? did they just rush to become like other states? no, because they were the first.

I will give you a hint, there is a good reason on why
Wyomings deer hunting has deteriorated so much in the last decade or two, and its not all about the weather either.

Wyomings elk hunting is probably a decade away from the big decline in quality but its a coming I assure you.

We all want to hunt for two and a half months with all weapons every single year
we all want the newest and greatest weapons and accessories, we want trophys and big old animals and lots of opportunity, I know I do , don't you?

Why did the idiots spend money on another survey? just
to ask that? heck I could have told them the answer for free.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-14 AT 05:19PM (MST)[p]I'm confused now after getting back on the thread and reading posts since I put my question up. Is the survey jm77 was describing that he said was done at random a completely different one than the 24-9 one WB brought up that everyone is now commenting on? It sounds like ti based on the comments that BuzzH made and that I agree with. I would definitely concur with what has been stated in that a survey isn't worth doing and is a complete waste of money if it isn't random. Also, as BuzzH mentioned, it shouldn't be the only thing used to make a decision, especially when it comes to wildlife management. Kepp up the good work jm77 and see if you can get to the bottom of this deal that you said appears to be coming from one particular G&F employee.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-14 AT 05:53PM (MST)[p]The elk & deer hunter surveys I used to start these comments were done for WyG&F by Research Management. Random surveys with over 1500 contacts per survey. Remember the elk & deer surveys were completely separate using different respondants about a year apart, with the same conclusions. These surveys tend to be very accurate.

The 24 type 9 survey was a mail out of 500 surveys of hunters who had hunted in area 24 previous years. 142 surveys returned.

By the way, some other interesting stuff on these elk & deer surveys like going all LQ for deer (50/50) and regional gen tags (65% in favor)
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

I personally never -- ever want to see Wyo go to Choose Your Weapon only hunt options.

Any state that has already done that has gone to shorter seasons to pile up the choose your weapon seasons--archery/muzzy/rifle....


Look at some of those states....Herd 'em in--herd 'em out short-short hunt weeks at best and even overlap weapon hunts...

Thanks for this thread jm77.....


Robb
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

>I personally never -- ever want
>to see Wyo go to
>Choose Your Weapon only
>hunt options.
>
>Any state that has already done
>that has gone to shorter
>seasons to pile up the
>choose your weapon seasons--archery/muzzy/rifle....
>
>
>Look at some of those states....Herd
>'em in--herd 'em out short-short
>hunt weeks at best and
>even overlap weapon hunts...
>
>Thanks for this thread jm77.....
>
>
>Robb


They already have their foot in the door in Wyoming with the Type 9 A/0 tag in some units. Let's hope it isn't a precursor to more of them along with ML tags, etc., or it could end up just like you stated. All we need is to have the nice seasons Wyoming now has cut short like the five days that NM has to run a jillion people through the system just for the money. IMHO NM isn;t even worth applying for a tag with the short 5 day seasons they have.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-14 AT 10:38PM (MST)[p]I wouldn't want it either except it makes hunting less crowded, improves draw odds, and increases g&f revenue.
I'm sure if you asked those who were successful in drawing a rifle tag in nv and az if they would like to also hunt with a bow for another month 73% of applicant's would have said hell yes. That is until they found out that 10-20% of them wouldn't have drawn any tag.

There is a reason all western states except 2 already do this.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

The survey should ask this question. Should we continue to support a 10-20% reduction in permits so a select few that draw a highly coveged tag can have 2.5 month hunting seasons?
Top gun were not talking about cutting Wyoming to 5 day season like what is in New Mexico. You'd have a month to hunt with a bow.
Buzz we'll still sell every le permit in Wyoming whether they are archery specific or not. Have you looked at the odds lately?
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-14 AT 08:48AM (MST)[p]Fedup

Your argument that this will help drawing odds is weak. In those less than 10% areas, type 1 holders will see little increases in odds. The archers on the other hand, may do much better. I get it though, as long as WHATEVER we do cause MORE licenses, thereby giving Mr Fedup a better chance, then we should do it. No matter we start to look like every other state. No matter we begin down that road to become the next Utah.

And no matter that even with the declining mule deer numbers (which even our experts don't know why) as long as we get Fedup better draw odds, lets let a few bow hunters chase muley bucks in the rut just because they think they should get late season tags. Obviously bow hunters don't have enough opportunity in Wyoming.

Residents and NRs alike seem to like our seasons and bow hunting options. Look somewhere else for better draw odds.

How about split seasons for your hard to draw areas?
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

I think your ignoring one very important point jm77.

Its not 1950 anymore, its not even 1980 or the year 2000.
In 1950 Deer hunting seasons in the Greys river country started in mid September and ended Dec 1st, for a while hunter could buy 2 buck deer tags, all OTC by the way. The hunting was incredible, but it changed over time, more hunters less deer, modern technology, more pressure.

Over time things got more restrictive, only one tag allowed, shorter seasons ect.

That same thing has happened throughout the west, some states now have really restrictive choose your weapon hunts.
But they all evolved from the same place.

Primitive weapons allow more hunters to hunt longer seasons without killing off the resource, primitive weapons are kind of what the old 30/30 lever actions and 2 wheel drive pickups were in the past.

More hunters jammed into shorter seasons are the only way WGF can slow down the kill rate in most deer areas in Wyoming, and that's where we are now at this time, that's just a way of managing the constantly evolving game of wildlife and their high tec human predators.
Another way is to have longer seasons and limited quotas, or just limited quotas, another way is to have choose your weapon hunts with special primitive weapon hunts, or choose your area, or you can have combinations of things.
I call it creative management.

Its not a conspiracy, its not about copying other states, its about finding ways to allow more quality opportunity for an increasingly efficient and expanding number of hunters.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

It doesn't give "mrfedup" better odds it gives all hunters better odds. I'm not a a purist archery hunter. A increase in overall le tags of 10-20% (with same demand on resource) would go a long way in improving odds.
Also now there's 10-20% less hunters pounding the general areas for any given season because you gave these hunters le archery permits for a different season.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

Piper,

I agree with most you say but studies show having more hunters in the field at one given time results in higher success rates not lower.

This is mostly a exercise in people management. Wyoming does a piss poor job of managing hunters. Whether were talking draw odds, hunter overcrowding, generating revenue, or quality of experience. If it wasn't for a extremely low population base and a large % of extremely steep and rugged public lands we'd be the laughing stock of public land hunting, although one could argue that you would currently have a less crowded experience with a Utah general rifle deer than you would with a wyoming region tag.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

Piper
I'm not ignoring anything. The G&F is handling management just fine in limited quota areas, because they are limited in license quotas and therefore limited in hunters. In fact G&F has told me it is easier for them to manage hunters with the present system of special archery and regular seasons. Type 9 tags in LQ areas, if done PROPERLY, benefits only the archers. Fedup can preach his 2nd grade math all day long, but that's a fact. Talk with a game manager about it.

General areas- different management story, however region tags will most likely do more good than type 9 tags in easing pressure.

And you are also wrong about primitive weapons allowing longer seasons in Wyoming. Type 9 tags will shorten the available hunting season for EVERYONE! There will also be no difference in harvest, because if you have been doing Fedup's math you will know that to even begin to make his argument(and your's I guess), archery tags must be increased to accomodate a lower percentage of harvest by archers.(which by the way is climbing all the time)

I will admit, what you & fedup want is creative and brings us closer to what other states have. Trouble with that is we don't need to do that anymore than we need to be issuing archery rut tags for mule deer.(which isn't creative, but stupid) Do you like the way Utah does things? If you do, this is a hopeless conversation.

You still can try to convince me and the rest of the 74% of hunters who don't want 'weapon specific' tags, but I'm not buying. Seems though a few of the red shirts are, but not most I talk to. We'll see how far it goes.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

Why would anyone that really hunts---want to shorten seasons for having a choose your weapon only hunt dates?

Makes no sense at all.

Simply just more Screw the other guy to better serve me-me-me odds to draw....for what?? that 1 year ya draw??? Big F.D.---

1 and done sucks....move to Ut. or Nv. or Az. or Colo. or-----just leave Wyo the hunting opportunity that it is for ressy & non-ressy's.

Why don't ya come up with a 'plan' that better serves hunting opportunity than your me-me-me logic of I need to draw an LQ unit all the time?

Maybe look at how Montana or Idaho does the bow season then rifle season options for months and months of hunting opportunity--basically just like Wyo has now---


Robb
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

+1 Robb! This "Me Me Me" stuff that a couple of these guys keep spouting is getting old!
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

piper brings up some good points, but only us older guys understand what he's trying to say. At least I do.(this time:))

I know California is not Wyoming is not California., but where I hunt blacktails, your tag is good for archery and rifle. Archery is open for about a month, and then rifle for about a month after that.

What happens here is that a lot of rifle hunters go out and buy a bow, spend a couple days practicing, then head for the hills as a archery hunter. They generally drive the roads and fling arrows at every legal buck they see. They cripple a lot and lose them, then go back and hunt the rifle season.

I don't know if that happens in Wyoming or not, but I always wished you had to decide archery or rifle, but not both.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

Topgun, I'm glad you see it now and I agree the me, me, me crowd gets frustrating. The me, me, me crowd just doesn't understand that if we all give a little the experience could be much greater for all in Wyoming.
Robb, Idaho makes you pick a weapon. The only other Western state that doesn't make you pick is Montana and they have super crowded general season hunts also.
Jm77 what they should do is just eliminate hunting season and bag limits. Just think how "easy" it would be for the g&f then. Of course it is easier. What is easy is very rarely what is right.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

"What happens here is that a lot of rifle hunters go out and buy a bow, spend a couple days practicing, then head for the hills as a archery hunter. They generally drive the roads and fling arrows at every legal buck they see. They cripple a lot and lose them, then go back and hunt the rifle season."

eelgrass-total BS

I know some very dedicated bow hunters here and they wound and lose more animals than any weekend bow hunter I know of. What's the problem is the guy who shoots pie plates at 80 yds and then thinks he can kill game out there too. These experienced guys take the most risky shots, while the 'weekenders' rarely get a shot. Just cause your a Jim Dandy at 3D's doesn't mean your a good bow hunter.

The Pres of the local archery club here wounded 3 bulls before he finally killed a fourth in 2011. This excuse of all these wanna be archers is getting boring, because that's the second biggest excuse being used by type 9 proponents.

The biggest excuse is "I want better draw odds!"

Fedup

Shorter seasons mean everyone hunts at the same time. That's what great about what we have now. After the first few days you have the place to yourself. That is if you know what your doing.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

some of these comments are kind of strange, I have no problem with Wyoming's elk hunting strategy, they usually do a good job with antelope and everything except deer.

Want to see crowded hunts, check out a lot of the Wyoming general deer hunts, they do give the thousands of hunters in region G and H three weeks or so, but go to the central part of the state, what is it a Week? 5 days- 9 days? I can't remember.

Head down to the nice mule deer country north of Evanston, what a calamity that is, everything that has four legs gets a chase down, the only way any of them survive is if they have a real hidey hole and they stay hid.
Is that quality management? I don't think so, but the surveys say it is,so what can you do?

Its in the mostly open country where mule deer evolved and like to live that could use a little creative management.

Split seasons lessen hunter crowding, choose your weapon hunts do the same thing, primitive weapons are less disruptive for the animals, especially when those thousand yard shots go off in the open country.

The old ways still work for elk, so far, but in my opinion we are behind the times when it comes to deer season management.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

Short seasons do mean everyone goes at the same time. Month long archery seasons and 15-45 day rifle seasons cant exactly be defined as short seasons.
 
RE: Hunter surveys on weapon specific tags.

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-14 AT 04:03AM (MST)[p]No Idaho doesn't---- you have other weapon season date options on your 'Zone Elk ' tag A or B......

You have to have archery Ed. or a last years license to get your validation for adding bow dates to your buck or elk tag.

Robb
 

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