how does NR 2nd choice work?

C

critterells

Guest
For the life of me, I cannot figure out how the non-res 2nd choice works. I searched prior threads and could not seem to find an answer. I want my son to draw a cow elk tag with his 2nd choice (and not lose his elk points) in a good antelope unit. But in order to do this, I have to have to be pretty certain what cow elk tag he can draw with his 2nd choice so I can make sure it is in an antelope unit he can also draw. I am not looking for units (my research has led me to several possibilities with overlapping dates and good access), but have some questions about the draw process.

I know how the first choice PP draw works and have the odds from prior years. But the odds are only for 1st choice. If the 1st choice PP non-res regular tags are not all awarded to 1st choice applicants (I know it does not happen often with bulls but does seem to with cow hunts), what happens to the remaining tags allocated to that draw? Are they awarded to 2nd choice applicants? If so, is that based on the number of PP the 2nd choice applicant has? Or are they then put into the random draw? Is there a chart or way to determine the draw odds for 2nd choice?

As to the random draw, I also found the draw statistics from prior years which list the number of 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice applicants. In the random draw, does F&G conduct the random draw only for 1st choice applicants and then, if any tags remain, conduct another draw for 2nd choice applicants? Or are all the applicants included in the random draw at the same time.
 
forget the PP draw report, all you need is the random draw report for the type 4 Cow tags.
Look for hunts that have fewer applicants than tags, thru the 2nd choice column.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-12 AT 05:39PM (MST)[p]
I'm not quite following why WB responded with that suggestion because the Type 4 tag is a full price license. Your boy would be in the PP draw for those tags before the random draw is held and if he drew his first choice he would lose his PPs. You would have to make sure and put his first choice in a unit where he wouldn't draw the tag with the number of PPs he has before you would even start looking at second choice options. The Type 6 reduced cow/calf drawing is where you do not lose PPs because they are not used for that draw. The units where those tags are being offered is where I would be looking and they are half the price of the other tags. Then you could look at the antelope draw for that area or one nearby to see what the odds are because it's going to be hard to hunt both animals at the same time. To answer your last question, the first choice applicants in the random draw would get tags and if there are any left it would then go to those who had the unit as their second choice. Then if there are still some tags left they would go to the third choice applicants. If there are any tags left after that last draw, then those tags go on sale on a first come, first served basis in July.
 
Thanks for the info.

That makes sense about the sequence of the random drawing. I don't know why that is not in the regs (or why I missed it if it is). What about the PP drawing? If there are 15 tags available and 10 are awarded to 1st choice applicants, what happens to the remaining 5? Are the remaining 5 awarded to the 2nd choice applicants with the most PP--or do those 5 tags get "rolled over" into the random draw or become leftover tags?

I definately am not putting the type 4 cow hunt as the 1st choice. If my son drew a decent bull hunt on his 1st choice, we give up on the combo idea and hunt bulls. I am trying to make this work with the type 6 reduced cow tag because with the youth discount they are really cheap. But some of the units I am interested in do not have the type 6 tags.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-12 AT 09:22PM (MST)[p]

He wants to draw 2nd choice only.

Forget the 1st choice side of the equation, it's irrelevant at this point.

Decide which 2nd choice hunts you can draw, that are in your Antelope area, =then= go back and pick the most difficult 1st choice hunt there is. You will draw the 2nd choice and maybe, if lightning strikes you'll get the 1st choice, BUT, you can pick a 1st choice hunt that has no random tags if you look at the odds report, thereby ensuring you will not draw that tag unless you have max points. And even then, the draw odds will be in the 10% range.

/////////

"What about the PP drawing? If there are 15 tags available and 10 are awarded to 1st choice applicants, what happens to the remaining 5? Are the remaining 5 awarded to the 2nd choice applicants with the most PP--or do those 5 tags get "rolled over" into the random draw or become leftover tags?"

If there are 100 tags and 80 1st choice applicants, 20 tags will go to the max point guys in the PP draw. The remaining 80 tags go into the random draw where the remaining 60 1st choice guys will draw those tags, leaving 20 tags for the 2nd choice guys. If there are only 15 2nd choice apps for that hunt, all will draw their 2nd choice, leaving 5 tags for the 3rd choice. If there are no 3rd choice apps, those 5 tags go to the resident draw.

I believe there can be confusion as to the status of the 1st choice applicants when they move from the PP draw to the Random draw.
You keep your status as a 1st choice guy when you leave the PP draw and drop down to the Random draw. You will have a different random number but you keep your status and will pick up the random tags until all the carry over 1st choice guys get tags or the tags are gone.
 
Another analogy.
You're picking teams, winner of the toss gets priority.
Blue team wins the toss.
You can only pick blue until the 1st string (choice) is filled or there are no more blue guys.
If the 1st string (choice) gets filled you start picking 2nd string (choice).
Again, you can only pick the blue guys until they are gone or the 2nd string (choice) gets filled.
Then on the 3rd string (choice).
Once you run out of blue you pick the red and continue the process, then green, etc.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-12 AT 09:15AM (MST)[p]

WB stated: "If there are 100 tags and 80 1st choice applicants, 20 tags will go to the max point guys in the PP draw. The remaining 80 tags go into the random draw where the remaining 60 1st choice guys will draw those tags, leaving 20 tags for the 2nd choice guys. If there are only 15 2nd choice apps for that hunt, all will draw their 2nd choice, leaving 5 tags for the 3rd choice. If there are no 3rd choice apps, those 5 tags go to the resident draw."

I'd like to know how you came up with that explantion because it isn't even in the ballpark the way the draws work! Reading your last two posts has me so confused I wonder what it will do for someone that really doesn't know the way the draws are done. 75% of the available licenses in a unit go to those in the PP drawing before the random drawing is even held! Everyone is in that initial PP drawing whether they have any PPs or not and that draw goes until all the tags are gone or there are not enough applicants to take all those tags. Then those people or tags, whichever happens, are tossed into the random drawing. If there weren't enough tags to go to the first choice applicants in the PP draw those people could still lose their PPs if they then draw in the random one. The following subsection e is a brief description of how the drawings work pecentage wise right off page 5 of the F&G NR application booklet.

e. Big Game Preference Points. The preference point system is designedto improve your odds of eventually drawing a license in a hard-to-draw hunt area. For Moose, Full Price Bighorn Sheep, Elk, Deer and Antelope,75% of available licenses in each hunt area and license type combination will be allocated to a ?preference point draw.? Applicants with the highest
preference point totals will receive priority in the preference point draw. The remaining 25% of available licenses will be allocated to a ?random draw.? In this manner, everyone who applies has at least some chance of drawing a license regardless of their preference point total.

Therefore, this statement alone that WB made: "BUT, you can pick a 1st choice hunt that has no random tags if you look at the odds report" is completely off base just by reading the above paragraph:
 
The one thing I understand is F&G does not make this easy to understand. I think I understand the concept, but it is the draw reports that confuse me. Let me set aside the fictional numbers that I used initially and that WB used, and use some actual numbers.

Topgun's comment ( that "Everyone is in that initial PP drawing whether they have any PPs or not and that draw goes until all the license are gone or there are not enough applicants to take all those tags. Then those people or tags, whichever happens, are tossed into the random drawing") makes sense. The confusion arises from the reports. Since I am interested in a cow tag only as a second choice, I was looking at Unit 24 (type 4)from 2011. According to the NR PP regular draw report, there were 5 1st choice applicants with 0 points and 18 tags available. Those 5 1st choice applicants got their tags. But what happened to the remaining 13? Based on Topgun's comment, I assume those tags were issued in the regular PP draw to those who listed that hunt as their 2nd choice and then as their 3rd choice if any were still left.

I am worried, however, about Topgun's comment regarding loss of points (that "If there weren't enough tags to go to even the first choice applicants in the PP draw those people could still lose their PPs if they draw in the random one"). Assuming all Presumably if there were more tags than 1st choice applicants, all 1st choice applicants would get a tag in the PP draw (since those with 0 would be included) and would lose their points. The random draw would only include those with the unit as 2nd and 3rd choices. If the tag was awarded in the random drawing to someone who chose the unit as 2nd or 3rd, my reading of the rges is they would keep their points. I think it is only if there are not enough tags for the 1st choice in the PP, and then the hunter is lucky enough to draw 1st choice in the random draw.

Sorry about being confused, but I am gathering that this process is confusing and I am not the only one on the website having difficulty interpreting the reports and the draw process. Thanks again for the help.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-12 AT 10:38AM (MST)[p]

Gunner, I'm well versed on the workings of the draw. The 100/80 tag split I used above was to show Critter how the draw process works without having to nit pick actual tag allocations.

Critter, the tags do not move from the special draw to the regular draw. The 5 tags were drawn in the "regular price" PP draw and the remaining 13 tags went to the "regular price" random draw. The report won't show the extra tags.
Unit 1, type 4 tags in the "special price" draw will illustrate this as well. No tags drawn in the PP draw so the 6 tags went to the random side yet the report only shows an allocation of 1 tag in the "special price" random draw. The extra tags are there but the report only shows the "allocation".

"Assuming all Presumably if there were more tags than 1st choice applicants, all 1st choice applicants would get a tag in the PP draw (since those with 0 would be included) and would lose their points. The random draw would only include those with the unit as 2nd and 3rd choices. If the tag was awarded in the random drawing to someone who chose the unit as 2nd or 3rd, my reading of the regs is they would keep their points."

= this part is not correct:
"The random draw would only include those with the unit as 2nd and 3rd choices."
 
Ok. So your 2nd and 3rd choices are meaningless during the PP draw. The 2nd and 3rd choices only "come into play" during the random draw. That is consistent with the fact that the PP draw report only lists 1st choice applicants.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-12 AT 12:37PM (MST)[p]
In the unit 1 type 4 scenario above, with no 1st choice applicants and 6 tags available, if they went to the 2nd choice applicants while still in the PP side of the draw, then 3rd, The tags would never drop down to the random draw and I have been told they do drop down. Then they go to the "regular price" random draw, then if there are remaining tags, they go to the resident draw, then the left over sale.


A call to the draw coordinator will straighten it out but they like to head you off before you get there. I had to go thru 3 people before I got to her the last time I called.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-12 AT 10:37AM (MST)[p]
WB---You probably do, but it's just really hard explaining all the intracacies of the Wyoming draw and I get caught up in it too! However, you stated that there are 100 tags, which would mean that 75 would be in the PP draw and 25 would be in the random. All 75 tags would be taken by the 75 first choice applicants in the PP draw and none would go over to the random draw in your scenario.

To answer the last question from the OP about losing your PPs on a first choice. Yes, it can happen after the PP drawing if there are fewer tags in the PP draw than there are first choice applicants. Those remaining first choice applicants are tossed into the random draw with all the other people who put in for that unit. They will lose their PPs if they draw the tag in that random draw because the rules don't say you just lose them on the initial PP draw you were in. They say you lose them if you draw a tag as your first choice. This has happened to at least one person on this site when they didn't want to draw in the PP drawing and put in for a hard to draw unit. They drew the tag anyway and lost their PPs even though the odds chart showed that the % of first choice applicants drawing the tag was very low in that first draw. They forgot that they then go into the random draw where you can still lose them on your second chance if that unit was listed as the first choice. If it were me I would be looking at the random draw odds on both the Res and NR sides for the units that have the Type 6 tag to see what units had leftover tags after all 3 choices were filled and go accordingly in hopes that the same thing will hapen this year. The put in for the antelope unit that is a sure thing to draw and be ready to buy the leftover elk license the minute it goes on sale in July. That would be the only 100% sure way of not losing his PPs and at least hunting antelope, if not both animals.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-12 AT 10:33AM (MST)[p]"Therefore, this statement alone that WB made: "BUT, you can pick a 1st choice hunt that has no random tags if you look at the odds report" is completely off base just by reading the above paragraph:"

If you check, you'll find there are in fact, hunts that have no random tags available because of the limited allocation. Picking one of those, while no assured, will be a good choice if you want a 2nd choice tag.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-12 AT 12:39PM (MST)[p]

"To answer the last question from the OP about losing your PPs on a first choice. Yes, it can happen after the PP drawing if there are fewer tags in the PP draw than there are first choice applicants."

Absolutely correct, and I didn't mean to say otherwise. The remaining 1st choice guys drop down to the random draw where they get a tag and lose their points. The SP GEN tag is a perfect example of how this works.

I concur with the type 6 tag rather than a type 4, and there is a roughly $300 up charge for the type 4 adult tag over a type 6 adult tag too.
 
"WB---You probably do, but it's just really hard explaining all the intracacies of the Wyoming draw and I get caught up in it too! However, you stated that there are 100 tags, which would mean that 75 would be in the PP draw and 25 would be in the random. All 75 tags would be taken by the 75 first choice applicants in the PP draw and none would go over to the random draw in your scenario."

To use actual WY draw allocation numbers that is correct. I used 80/20 for clarification. I didn't get into the special/regular allocations either.
We're saying the same thing and getting twisted up over semantics.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-12 AT 10:56AM (MST)[p]Yep, I think we both pretty well know the way things work, but it's just friggin hard to put it in plain English because of the different percentages alotted and the number of choices allowed. Then you toss in the fact that licenses that are left in one draw are tossed into another draw and it makes things a pain in the butt to explain. One thing for sure is that his boy will pay $289 for the Type 4 tag if he goes that route and only $114 for the Type 6 tag, which is one heck of a deal for a youth under 18!

For the OP---It doesn't matter where you draw the tag because you only lose the PPs if you get the tag as your first choice.
 
Thanks guys. I have a much better understanding (I think) of the process. I agree it is difficult to put into words and one of the most confusing aspects is the different allocations and draws (2 NR special PP draws; 2 NR regular PP draws; 2 NR random draws; leftovers; reduced fee; 75/25%; 60/40%, etc.....) I know that creates a lot of opportunity, but also a lot of confusion.

I have been buying points for my son for the cheap price of $10, but it is now time to hunt since he will be going to college in a few years (don't know if he will have time to hunt) and the cost to keep buying points will go up. I just did not want to make a "bonehead" move and end up using his points accidentally on a very easy to draw (or even one with leftover tags) hunt.
 
One good thing is after you decide what you want to do you only need to apply for the elk tag before the end of this month and will know if you draw the tag by March 1. That gives you two more weeks to apply for the antelope unit(s) before the March 15 deadline. You then have until June 3 to modify or withdraw that application if you change your mind after you apply and see or come up with something better. When you come up with a final decision please feel free to PM me to get my opinion and I'm sure WB would do the same for you. That's the great thing about this site where everyone really tries to help each other out as much as possible.
 
If I apply for a first choice unit "X" type 1 special tag, can I also put in a unit "X" type 6 tag as a second choice? Will I get a refund of the price differance if I draw my second choice cheaper tag?
 
Type 6 tags are separate, independent tags and can't be applied for with other higher-priced tags like you're talking about. You would have to apply for them as two separate applications and pay the appropriate fees for each.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-12 AT 02:08PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-12 AT 02:07?PM (MST)

quick on the trigger gunner

Patriots better kick it in gear.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-12 AT 12:36PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-12 AT 12:34?PM (MST)

Critter, I spent some time on the phone with the draw coordinator.

Regarding your specific hunt and the tag allocation:

The Special price PP tags that are not allocated, drop down to the "regular price" PP draw.
The Special price "random" tags, drop down to the "regular price" random draw.

Tags not drawn in -either- of those draws are converted to GEN tags and are used to meet the NR quota of 7,250 NR "full price" licenses. PP tags stay PP tags, RD tags stay RD tags.

And yes, Antlerless tags are upgraded to "any Elk" licenses to meet the NR quota. The "full price" designation is what counts.

In addition, there is a LO draw prior to the NR draw for each unit and any tags drawn come out of the NR allocation for that specific unit. We get the left overs so to speak.


The tag allocation you inquired about:
special draw
PP = 8
RD = 2
zero drawn so they drop down

regular draw
PP = 10
RD = 4
Add in the "special price tags" we get
PP = 18 (only 5 of these drawn)
RD = 6 (all drawn as 2nd choice)

The 13 tags not drawn in the regular price PP draw are converted to GEN tags, they do not move over to the RD side.
 
WB---Thanks for taking the time to do all that digging! That's a new one on me when you say they take cow tags and move them up to bull tags and convert the PPs to GEN tags. That makes no sense to me, but what do I know, LOL!
 
WB--Thanks for that digging into that and that info. When I called F&G, I only got more confused. I guess I did not know who to talk to or what to ask.

Now the number of tags allocated to each draw makes more sense. When I totaled the tags from the special PP draw, the regular PP draw and both random draws, I was coming up with a total higher than what I thought had been allocated to non-residents. I now realize I was "double counting" because the special tags not drawn were made available in the regular draw.

Of course, the more you think you know, the more confusing it gets. Where do "leftover" tags come from if all of the unsold tags are converted to general tags to meet the specified full price quota? The 2011 leftover tag list shows this cow hunt as "sold out", but we know there were at least 13 tags not sold. Not important for what I need to do this weekend, but just a passing thought. Anyhow, thanks to both you and Topgun for all the help.
 
I knew they dropped tags down into the regular draws if they weren't taken in the PP ones. That does make it a little more difficult to figure things out when you look at numbers they put up on their site. I also really wonder about that cow tag to bull tag and transfer of tags to the general tag that WB mentioned because it doesn't make sense that there would still be tags left to sell in July if they do that and we know there are!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-27-12 AT 10:06AM (MST)[p]

They are only converted if the total NR allocation of "full price" tags is less than 7,250.
It's an accounting thing from the discussion I had. It's not like they have a drawer full of Cow tags and they swap them to another drawer. The Statute says a minimum number of full price licenses, so if they already hit the 7250, you may have left overs. They can go over, but not under the full price quota from my understanding.

You may notice there are no full price Elk left overs from 2011.

and yes, it can be frustrating talking to them. They head you off when you call. I asked specifically for the coordinator.
"how can I help you?"
Draw coordinator please
"I can help you"
I don't think so.
"how can I help you?"
You can transfer me to the coordinator
"I can help you"
there were 18 tags available in the regular PP draw for hunt xyz and only 5 were drawn, where did the 13 go?
"look at the next line in the report. They went to the next lower point holders."
The next line is a different unit. Only 5 were drawn.
"no no look under the line with 18"
look, I don't want to be an ass but I have the report right here, the next line is another hunt. I've been down this road before and would appreciate talking to the coordinator.
"hold on"

As a rule, they are very helpful and know what's going on. Some things do trip them up though.
 

Similar threads

tmbr_hntr
General elk tags in Res draw report
Replies
6
Views
449
jm77
jm77
H
Unit 16 2nd rifle Deer hunt
Replies
13
Views
1k
mozey
mozey

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

656F7C06-6153-49B3-881B-ED23E3BAADB1.jpeg
Screenshot_20230722_142314_Instagram.jpg
3AB7020D-5962-4046-AA07-92CD1C4A89E9.jpeg
IMG_20201006_001635_668.jpg
20231201_005131.jpg
C7046360-C547-4744-B3C3-928978E10249.jpeg
3D8545FA-5588-42B4-B886-0C9A4D30FAB1.jpeg
IMG_9993.jpg
44495D12-270E-49D8-B808-A45D19A703A1.jpeg
IMG_3896.JPG
133C44A9-A7FF-404E-BF0F-229E7A2F22E6.jpeg
A5CEB17A-B60A-4213-BB6B-AA459EF5727D.jpeg

Wyoming Hunting Guides & Outfitters

Badger Creek Outfitters

Offering elk, deer and pronghorn hunts on several privately owned ranches.

Urge 2 Hunt

We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.

J & J Outfitters

Offering quality fair-chase hunts for trophy mule deer, elk, and moose in Wyoming.


Yellowstone Horse Rentals - Western Wyoming Horses
Back
Top Bottom