House Bill 112 (reduction in non resident licenses)

W

WasatchRider

Guest
I just read the article in Wyoming Outdoors regarding the Wyoming Hunter Defense Fund. I encourage everyone to read the article and also learn more about House Bill 112. I am a non-resident (Utah resident) and I have never hunted in Wyoming. However, I have helped my brother-in-law (resident) on several of his hunts in Wyoming. From those hunts I know that Wyoming is a very special place in regards to hunting opportunity. I know it is hard to find the perfect balance between number of non-resident & resident permits and also a balance for permit fees.

I know there are 2 sides to everything so I would really like to know why Robert Wharff with SFW thinks that it is a good idea (so much so that he would write a bill) for Wyoming to cut the non-resident tags down to %10 of the total number of permits? How will the lost revenue be replaced?

Based on the information in the article in Wyoming Outdoors, House Bill 112 seems like a terrible idea. Regardless of which side you are on on this issue I encourage each of you to learn more about this and get involved with the process.

I rarely post but I felt like I should post something about this because I didn't already see a post about it. Take care everyone!
 
I actually did post on this on the fee increase possibility thread last night, but I'm glad you made your own thread on it and here is my post C/Pd from the other thread:

I just received my copy of the 2014 Wyoming Outdoors publication that the Wyoming Outfitters & Guides Association puts out each Fall. There is quite an article covering two full pages under the title "Wyoming Hunter Defense Fund". It was established specifically to counter House Bill 112 that was introduced by Robert Wharff (yep, our beloved Smokestick), Executive Director for WY SFW, and backed by some key legislators. It would cut all NR tags from the present percentages to a 90/10 resident/NR split! The article is very informative as to how many millions of dollars the NRs represent to the Wyoming G&F Department and the entire state as a whole and the figures are staggering! According to the stats it would leave a $7 million gap in the G&F budget that would take a 250% increase in resident hunting license prices just to cover that loss alone! The WYOGA has already put money into the fund since they would obviously be greatly affected by the huge reduction of NRs availing themselves of their services. Anyway, I just wanted to throw this out to everyone and I thought this thread was a good place for it. If it doesn't result in a lot more posts and conversation, I can always make a new thread out of it because of it's importance to all of us.
 
In the past the idea was just moose, sheep and mountain goats. Seems reasonable to limit nonresidents to 10 percent when most every other state does the same. WYGOA are the ones who made the widlerness law. Take what they say with a grain of salt. They have proven to rip the nonresident before all in the name of cash. My two cents as a nonresident who isn't a fan of Bob or SFW.
 
Maybe if that was the case from the onset, but we NRs have entirely too much money staked in the game at this point to change the quotas. That wouldn't be fair unless they offered to refund our preference point fees that we've invested. You really have no idea how much revenue NR hunters bring into the state of Wyoming.
 
Sorry Topgun I didn't see your post before I started this thread.

As Topgun stated, according to the article, it would cut non-resident tags to 10% of total tags for all big game species (deer, antelope, elk, bighorn sheep, mountain goat, and moose,...). This will be a little over 50% reduction in non-resident tags for big game species.

According to the article this will take $100 million tourism dollars out of Wyoming's economy each year ($7 million of that appears to be from lost non-resident license sales).

I have been thinking about this to try and see what the positives are from cutting non-resident tags to %10. The only thing that I can come up with is more tags for residents (this would affect non-residents in a negative manner but it would be a positive for residents when looked at from just a number of tags point of view). I guess that residents will need to decide if absorbing the lost $100 million tourism dollars is worth the extra tags.

You can download a pdf copy of the article from a link on the following page:
http://www.wyominghunterdefensefund.com/hb-112/
 
Involving all species is a new twist and probably not viable for the state from a money standpoint.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-14 AT 04:32PM (MST)[p]Southpawshooter I was wondering the same thing about what the split is in other states. I will post the numbers if I find them somewhere. One of us may just have to add up the numbers from the draw information to find out (if it isn't already summarized online for other states).
 
>Involving all species is a new
>twist and probably not viable
>for the state from a
>money standpoint.

Hey 2 pt, on that^^^ we can agree.
See man, there's always a reason to be agreeable, right?
Zeke
 
This is nothing more than outfitter BS. The bill was last session and it went nowhere. There WILL NOT be a bill this session(2015)to change allotment % of elk, deer & antelope. There very well may be one for moose, sheep, mtn goat and bison.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-14 AT 05:49PM (MST)[p]Moose, sheep, Mt goat and Bison don't matter? I'm sitting on 17 NR sheep points I paid a fair bit of coin for I would rather not see turned into dust.

WY has been good to me, I didn't cry about the biennial tag fee increases, the rip off on the preference point fees or any of that. but I do resent pulling the rug out from under me after the race starts.

Between my wife and I we drop over $600 a year in WY just to apply . cut the allotment to 10% and I might keep playing for sheep and I might not but I know we'll dump the rest. a 160 -170 sheep is only worth so much especially if you're too old to hunt when you draw.

Some people are just greedy that's what it amounts to.











Stay thirsty my friends
 
I have predicted for years that Wyoming SFW will push for a Utah Style wealth tag system. Creating a budget shortfall will be the first step. The solution to the budget shortfall will be the creation of Utah style wealth tags. Anybody disagree?
 
>I have predicted for years that
>Wyoming SFW will push for
>a Utah Style wealth tag
>system. Creating a budget
>shortfall will be the first
>step. The solution to
>the budget shortfall will be
>the creation of Utah style
>wealth tags. Anybody disagree?
>


Nope, as you hit the nail on the head with that post brother! I know the outfitters are only interested in the money they would lose if NR tags are cut by 50% and Jeff already advised before I got back on here that the Bill was introduced last year for a cut in all species tags and it went down the tube. I hope if another Bill is introduced to cut any of our tags that it also goes up in flames. It just flat isn't right to change things after a program is instituted and then kick people under the bus that have spent so much money and have PPs built up to where they think they can use them in the next year or two and then with the cuts might never draw, especially if they're an old fart like myself!
 
As a resident I even think this is stupid. The game and fish cant afford to take 7 million out of budget. Also as stated before over a 100 million in tourism could be lost
 
jm77 I didn't realize the bill was from last session and that it went nowhere. I wish the article would have pointed that out since it was distributed in print to all of us so long after the session. Thank you for pointing that out. I guess this is more of an issue to watch out for in the future.
 
>As a resident I even think
>this is stupid. The game
>and fish cant afford to
>take 7 million out of
>budget. Also as stated before
>over a 100 million in
>tourism could be lost


Wrong nfh it's not 7 million, not even close. It amazes me to no end how gullible people are. The outfitters want everyone to believe it will include elk, deer & antelope and you all are falling for it! The loss of revenue from changing moose, sheep, goat and bison to a 90/10 split would be about 200,000 not considering possible PP money on moose & sheep. Super tag alone made three times that amount and the G&F is fully funded out to 2019.

As far as loss to the economy on those tags would be minimal, if not none at all. All resident hunters would be using local taxidermists on those species, while NR many times take their animals to their favorite at home. And more and more residents are using outfitters for sheep hunts. Who has horses these days? Residents also use motels, restaurants and local businesses when they hunt away from home.

I completely understand why the NR here don't like any of this. Sorry, but many residents who live here and raise families in Wy don't understand why we are so generous with our M,S,G & B tags.

I sat in a WYOGA meeting about this and was amazed at the misinformation by the outfitters in their desperate attempt to keep anything that benefits them. The Hunter Defense Fund will be primarily funded by an added fee to their clients. I'm not even sure if that's legal when it involves a PAC that fight or promotes legislation.
 
jm77 part of the reason I started this thread was because there always are 2 sides (or 3 or 4!) to a story. So I appreciate the additional information and perspective that you have added. However, I think stereotyping people as gullible is just going to tick people off. Most of us only have the information that is readily available and most of us probably don't have a bunch of time to do a lot of research on these types of issues.
 
>
>........ The Hunter Defense Fund
>will be primarily funded by
>an added fee to their
>clients.

As a non-resident client, i'm okay with that. At least they serve as a voice for non-residents in this case.
 
>jm77 part of the reason I
>started this thread was because
>there always are 2 sides
>(or 3 or 4!) to
>a story. So I
>appreciate the additional information and
>perspective that you have added.
> However, I think stereotyping
>people as gullible is just
>going to tick people off.
> Most of us only
>have the information that is
>readily available and most of
>us probably don't have a
>bunch of time to do
>a lot of research on
>these types of issues.

I look at it this way; everyone here is entitled to their opinion. After all, in the end we are all looking out for ourselves(family), no matter what some might say. I get your "two sides" post WasatchRider. I'll give you credit for that.

What ticks ME off is how easily some can be swayed by misinformation, and especially in this case when it comes from WYOGA.

Trust me on this, HB112 was a political move NEVER designed to see the light of day in the legislature. WYOGA has seized the opportunity to use it and the fact SFW(Wharff)was involved to further their cause. The truth is THEY started all this by asking for more NR elk licenses and a higher percentage of LQ elk for NR. This caused an uproar with residents who have had a much harder time drawing LQ tags.

Now the idea of changing M,S,G&B license percentages has taken hold with residents. This idea is not going away. It's a 'gravity issue' now and my advise to you,whether you like it or not, is to live with it. There will be a battle, but WYOGA is going to have to convince legislators to not listen to the majority. And how will they do that? Misinformation, that's how!

In the end, WYOGA will fail.
 
Jim77, I take it you don't hunt out of state much.

I know when I hunt out of state I leave quite a bit of money behind, I've yet to have a business object . how much effect does it have on the economy? the smaller the town the more it effects them. and when ( or if ) I draw a sheep tag and pay an outfitter 9K that money doesn't go to china .


As a NR the outfitter is my only voice, NR hunters need to understand this. if you use their services or not they are your agent in this matter. what's good for them is good for us , and even if you think they're greedy they're not as greedy as those who want to cut the allotments. this is politics , I love outfitters.











Stay thirsty my friends
 
I'm 99% sure that there will be a bill introduced this session to cut the NR moose, sheep, goat and bison to 10%.

I also am 99% sure it will pass.

I've already been contacted by the legislature regarding this issue...
 
I'm sure all the anti-hunters will vote for it. If the antis were smart they would propose to minimize or even eliminate non-resident tags all together. Imagine how many hunters we would lose if we were limited to hunting our own state.

If you take away our (non-residents) opportunity, what incentive do we have to fight against issues that impact your state (e.g., wolves).
 
>I'm 99% sure that there will
>be a bill introduced this
>session to cut the NR
>moose, sheep, goat and bison
>to 10%.
>
>I also am 99% sure it
>will pass.
>
>I've already been contacted by the
>legislature regarding this issue...


Only 99% sure, LOL! I know from previous conversations that you know what you're talking about when it come to this topic, as well as most everything involving the Legislative issues. I guess the only thing I would say is that it's too bad things like this get changed after the inception of a program and screw people that have a lot of money invested and that would lose any chance at ever drawing a tag with a 50% cut in tags. BuzzH, I have a question for you or even for Jeff when he reads this. Do you think that it would be possible to at least put a clause in a Bill to offer all those NRs that are in the game now a chance to withdraw from the PP rat race and ask that the money they have tied up in PPs be refunded if they so choose? That may tick people off that are in the other animal PP races, but those have only been in existence for 9 years and don't involve nearly the money that we're talking about for these animals we're talking about that have very high PP fees. That would possibly take some of the sting out of this, especially for an older guy who figured his PPs would allow him to hunt in the near future and now he'll be dead before it has a chance of happening! If you think that sounds fair and might fly, would you be willing to offer that suggestion to your Cheyenne contacts? I ask that because I know you're in the forefront as far as looking out for us NRs and for that I give you a big THANK YOU!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-14 AT 10:14AM (MST)[p]



Topgun I see what you're saying but since they don't even know how to make up the shortfall from cutting the NR quota I can't imagine in a million years they'd have the funds or desire to refund what they took on false pretenses.

Buzz, I assume any bill passed this year wouldn't effect the drawings until 2016?















Stay thirsty my friends
 
I think you're correct, TG, when you stated that Buzz is a pro-NR hunter (I think he's pro hunter when someone will actually hunt hard). I think that applies to him regardless of the State. Many hunts of his, mine, your are as a NR hunter.
Maybe this is why we're willing to help guys regardless of State lines.
Zeke
 
>Topgun I see what you're saying
>but since they don't even
>know how to make up
>the shortfall from cutting the
>NR quota I can't imagine
>in a million years they'd
>have the funds or desire
>to refund what they took
>on false pretenses.
>
>Buzz, I assume any bill passed
>this year wouldn't effect the
>drawings until 2016?
>
>
>You lost me on that post! According to what I'm hearing the G&F is now solvent for several years and maybe up to 2019. We are talking about a lot of money for some individuals here regarding my question, but it would be a drop in the bucket to the overall G&F budget! To answer your question to BuzzH in case he doesn't get back here, the Bills passed one year never go into effect until the following year because of the time frame when the Legislature is in session compared to the application and drawing dates for the tags.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Stay thirsty my friends
 
They may be solvent, but they're not in a position to be santa. the refunds to my wife an I alone would be several thousand. times that by thousands and they're broke instantly. I'm not saying I disagree with your logic, I'd love it actually it would take lots of people out of the pool. I'm just saying it's never going to happen.
















Stay thirsty my friends
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-14 AT 01:14PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-14 AT 11:03?AM (MST)

Sierra,

The bill wont be "voted" on by the "anti-hunters"...we are a representative republic, not a democracy.

440,

Correct, it will not apply to the 2015 draws for MSGB, but I would bet that most units will see a major point jump for MS as people weigh options.

Topgun, that is an impossible solution to refund money. Its a "buyer-beware" deal.

What I am going to "offer" as some "relief" in this to NR hunters is that the GF separate the preference point draw and random draw. Currently (correct me if I'm wrong here), if a NR actually applies for a M or S tag, the GF keeps $75 for moose, and $100 for sheep and you get a point whether you want one or not. I'm going to ask that if a NR chooses not to continue playing/paying the point game, that they can apply just for the random portion of the sheep and moose tags. Doesn't seem fair to me to force NR hunters with low point totals, to pay for a point that will do them no good. Even more so if the tag allocations are slashed to 10%. The fact is that those with less than 10-15 points, are only ever going to have a shot at a random tag.

The other thing that I will offer up is that I will fight any similar legislation that is brought forward to reduce any NR elk, deer, and pronghorn quotas.

I can understand Residents wanting to keep more of the tags for species that are difficult to draw, but any Resident that doesn't hunt DEA in Wyoming is CHOOSING not to.
 
A agree with you on the point jump, bound to happen.

I think your idea on the S and M point option is a good one and it may not cost the state anything because the application fees they'll still get will outway the loss in point fees.

It's sad that hunters have to fight hunters for the right to hunt more than they do the anti-hunters, but thats the world we live in.









Stay thirsty my friends
 
Just make the Moose/Sheep points an option like D/A/E. You go to the PP draw with what you have then everybody drops to the random where points don't matter. Everybody is in the PP draw now, even with zero points.
 
I'm kindof suprised that the outfitters assoc didn't have a little more say in limiting nonres tags....especially sheep! At $12,000 to $14,000/nonres guided sheep hunter in wilderness some Wyo guides and outfitters might be taking a mighty big cut in pay? Maybe the WG&F will start requiring Wyo res to go with a guide to hunt Wyo wilderness?
 
Thanks BuzzH! I won't even ask why my idea is an impossible solution unless you want to PM me when you have the time so we don't lose track of stuff on this thread. I think everyone it would affect would appreciate anything you can do that would help ease what is purposed. I don't see how they could ever cut the other tags you mentioned to 90/10 unless the state really comes up with a way to get back those millions and millions of dollars in revenue those three animals represent to the G&F and the state economy. Right now we can't even come up with a way to keep the G&F afloat.
 
jims,

Maybe you should study up on who passed the NR Wilderness Guide Law.

It wasn't the WYGF, so why would the Wyoming Game and Fish require Residents to use a guide in wilderness? There is NO way that the WYOGA has the political clout to ever pass a guide requirement on Residents. I know it, they know it, and if you engage that second brain cell...you'd know it too. Dumb comment on your part.

The days of WYOGA running the show in Cheyenne are OVER. They might make an attempt to slow this one down, but they aren't going to get it done. Matter of fact, its a waste of their time.

As to them "losing money" by a reduction in NR hunts, well, maybe they should be keeping their hunt prices sane. They can attract Resident clients if they start charging a fair price for a sheep hunt.

I don't know why you're acting shocked that the 90/10 split on MSGB is going to happen...I told you a couple years ago it was going to. I recall you telling me, "it will never happen".

As per usual, you live in denial...
 
Buzz,
I wasn't serious with my Wyo res guide in wilderness comment! I was just joking around! Lighten up a little!
 
jims,

Were you "just joking" when you said the 90/10 split would never happen???

I wasn't....
 
Here's a thought for the good folks from Wyoming:

One of the most famous discussions about this law came from Christian pastor Martin Niemoller in his recollection of how Nazism spread in Germany, and how few people did anything to stop its takeover of society. Pastor Neimoller is credited with saying:

?First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn?t a communist.

?Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn?t a socialist.

?Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn?t a trade unionist.

?Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn?t a Jew.

?Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.?[ii]

This is an excellent description of what happens when we ignorantly violate the law of freedom, allowing others to lose their rights while justifying that they probably deserved it and hoping it will never reach the point where it hurts us or those we love.

This quote might be a bit strong for the NR tag quota discussion but parts of it are certainly worth at least a thought.
Zeke
 
Zeke, yeah, its a bit over the top, but point taken.

I still never did get an answer, I don't believe, from you regarding how much you fought UTSFW over pillaging the NR tag allocation to get permits for the expo?

Seems to me, that if you're so concerned about having NR tags cut in Wyoming, you would certainly have been outraged over the tag theft that is going on in your State. With Utah leading the pack of those states slamming NR's, as well as R's, with commission tags, governors tags, expo tags, etc. etc. it seems appropriate that you start with YOUR state first.

I also wonder how many letters you wrote, emails you sent, or phone conversations you had with those running the show in New Mexico when that states Residents kicked NR's in the teeth? I contacted all the Commission, a few by phone, to let them know that NR's were about to take an asshandling via the legislature and the Residents. I was assured that the NR DIY quotas were not going to "take a significant hit"...which I knew was a flat lie.

The Residents of New Mexico chose the path of least resistance. Rather than try to change the corrupt LO and Outfitter programs (the real problem) there, to get themselves more tags, they just slapped around the NR's. NR's took it on the chin. There were many NR's of New Mexico, ON THIS BOARD, that complained in the New Mexico section. Very quickly, they were pounced on by the New Mexico residents and called whiners, complainers, and basically TOO FUGGIN bad, we want more tags for ourselves.

I have no problem with that, they have the absolute right to keep as many tags as they want for themselves.

I don't see this Wyoming issue of 90/10 any differently. If every other state is going to severely limit my NR opportunities, then I'm going to make gdamn sure that I have maximum opportunity as a Resident HERE.

When ONE single state, and its Residents, start getting higher tag percentages for things like NR LQ deer, elk, sheep, moose, etc. maybe I'll be a bit more willing to take up the NR battles here.

Until that happens, I'm not going to fight for a NR here. It makes no sense to fight for NR's of Wyoming, who then turn right around and kick my in the sack in their home states.

Not going to do it until I see a real effort from other Western States to start getting a handle on Landowner, expo, and outfitter tag welfare.

What you're asking for is help from Wyoming and providing nothing in return...going to be tough sledding for you to get much sympathy Zeke.
 
Haha,
Buzz,
I did respond to your questions... remember?

I'm not anticipating even one Wyoming resident (except the hated WYOGA) to stand up for me (since I cannot do it for myself) when it comes time to cut NR tags.

You may think otherwise but we'd both know you would be wrong.

Have a good one Buzz, application season is almost here and I hope you get some more good ones.

Zeke
 
Zeke,

Yeah, I know, tough questions.

About as tough as asking Wyoming Residents to take up the 90/10 battle when your state continues to kick NR's around.

If I were you, I'd be looking to cash my sheep points...if you can.
 
I think we all need to read the Wyoming Hunter Defense Fund Statement on Pages 8-9 of the newest issue of Wyoming Outdoors Mag.

ONLY 11.8% of Wyo Ressy's actually hunt----pick a species...

This would mean a $$$$250% INCREASE in Ressy tag fee'$$....if all of the ONLY 11.8% still stayed in the hunt game....with a 250% increase in tag fee'$ that 11.8% number would drop dramatically----

With 84% Leftover tags-----Combined of all species/sex...

Okay, I will quit----

Thanks,

Robb
 
>I think we all need to
>read the Wyoming Hunter Defense
>Fund Statement on Pages 8-9
>of the newest issue of
>Wyoming Outdoors Mag.
>
>ONLY 11.8% of Wyo Ressy's actually
>hunt----pick a species...
>
>This would mean a $$$$250% INCREASE
>in Ressy tag fee'$$....if all
>of the ONLY 11.8% still
>stayed in the hunt game....with
>a 250% increase in tag
>fee'$ that 11.8% number would
>drop dramatically----
>
>With 84% Leftover tags-----Combined of all
>species/sex...
>
>Okay, I will quit----
>
>Thanks,
>
>Robb

Gullible
 
>'Gullible'
>
>HaHa---it was on the internet---hhhmmmmm!
>
>Good Morning --77
>
>Robb


Robb,

There are those non-thinking minds that are actually buying into that garbage of WYOGA's. Unlike what some on here think, I understand the contribution made by the NR hunter in Wyo.(Although Topgun is a stating falsely that 80% of the G&F budget comes from the NR!) WYOGA is making the mistake of trying to trivialize the resident in their attempt to keep what they have(outfitter welfare) and increase the mandated number of NR elk licenses.

Good Morning to you too Robb
 

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