Hollys Ranch Hobble Creek Canyon Utah

[deerslayer88]

This is a Utah issue but the owners of this property live in Wyoming. Today while watching some deer, and poachers with my son, your son was out of line. To begin I understand your property is private (the signs are the give away), however I was pulled off the road watching the deer from the tail gate of my rig parked completely on public lands, as the boy wanted to see the bucks that I was telling him about on your property.

While we were watching I noticed some individuals who had snuck onto the property from the public land above your parcel and I was watching them too (They were right on your border). Well your son came and began to rip into me for being 1 foot if that much over the path to your gate (still on public land mind you your paths on a easement from the city), he stated he needed to get onto the property and I was blocking access to his gate very rudely. I will add for those not familiar with this area there was another gate about 100 feet North of where I was located at and the other gate is the main gate not the one I was at.

I told him very politely I was sorry and that I would gladly move my rig asap to get out of his way. Your child kept being a disrespectful and threatening individual and was told off, after his repetitive rude remarks towards me and my son. I did tell him to get back into his rig while I moved mine and that he better stay put if he did not want problems. Had he chilled out he would have not been told off, I know others would not have been so kind to a disrespectful threatening individual. You might want to pull the reins in on him especially where his actions were threatening a individual could get him shot! I have a permit to carry and I was carrying, heck maybe he is/was carrying too but what I can tell you is the fact he threatened and approached me with me not having a direct out it could have ended badly for him. Needless to say I will be back watching deer on your property from the public lands that is not against the law and you might want to tell you child when he does stop to confront someone to at least pull off the road and maybe use his head about the situation.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams

 

[TOPGUN]

Do you know for a fact that this person is on this Forum to read what you posted? If you know who the owner and his son are, why not call the guy and try to have a decent conversation to alert them as to what you have mentioned here? Nothing really surprises me any more and it doesn't take too many bad apples to spoil the whole barrel. Nobody in Wyoming would ever do such a thing, so it must all be happening in Utah! That last sentence was just sarcasm because this garbage goes on everywhere and I'm glad the confrontation didn't escalate into something either of you would have regretted.

 

[Zeke]

I'm glad the
>confrontation didn't escalate into something
>either of you would have
>regretted.

Amen Topgun!

I don't blame you for being angry. Some guys/kids have no common sense but to even bring up the fact that you "carry" seems a bit over the top to me.

Seems it might have been a simpler fix to let the kid rant and just move your truck instead of your mouth.

Just 2 cents,
Zeke

 

[jm77]

Just curious, is this where the term "Utard" comes from?

 

[deerslayer88]

The locals I talked to after the guy left told me the family is from Wyoming and they are hunters. Also they all stated the family is a bunch of A holes (go figure). I figured maybe someone knows who the family is so I could explain to the parents that their actions were not very intelligent.

To add in the guy threatened bodily harm, and was posturing. Had he not done that I would not have even thought of posting about me being a permit holder but for christ sakes I was thinking threw each action and started to play the what if game. I tell you what had he drawn back to hit me he would not have liked the out come at that point because I was not pissed off until I got driving down the canyon later and called the wife. You know the saying the first to get pissed is the looser of a fight, now I won't deny I was livid once I got home and posted this but I feel like part of that was the fact that he made me think that I MIGHT have to pull. As a permit holder my biggest fear is to be placed into a situation that would cause me to have to pull.

I am also glad that I was able to put him in his place and let the air out of his sail, and that deescalated the situation. I know my apologies and offering to move without issue seemed to just upset this guy even more (go figure). In my experience telling someone off and being rude right back does not get someone to leave you along but it worked as a last second plan B, I sure would have thought the apology approach and willingness to move the rig would have fixed things faster but for one reason or another it did not. I plan on continuing to take the apology approach in the future as I do not want to let one bad apple ruin how I interact with others.

On a positive note I did not have to pull and the kid got out of there, just goes to show you that you never know when you might run into trouble.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams

 

[TOPGUN]

Were you paying attention in class or did you not have to take one to get that CCW permit to carry? "Pulling" in a situation like that would have been the worst possible scenario and just a little booboo would have put you in the slammer for a lot of years! Your entire description of the incident should have been kept to yourself IMHO and it's no wonder the Utard comment came out in the other member's post.

 

[deerslayer88]

Topgun,

I have pasted Utah's stand your ground law, for your reading pleasure. The second that jack said he was going to kill me and began to posture me I had grounds to use force! I however did not use force I tried one last ditch effort that worked to get out of the situation. I acted like the bigger dog in the fight. In the class it was mentioned multiple times that pulling should be a last resort which it was. I am just saying had the guy not back down who is to say what would have happened. I mean for crying out load normal sane people don't stop in the middle of the highway to tell someone off for looking at deer on their property, they also do not continue to get even more worked up when someone apologies and is willing to move. So if you ask me this individual is not sane, sane people don't go looking for fights with people for no reason. If you can't deal with that then I don't know what to tell you, the whole point of this post was to inform this young mans parents of his actions so they could explain to him how to approach people so he doesn't get harmed in the future.


Title 76
Utah Criminal Code
Chapter 2
Principles of Criminal Responsibility
Section 402
Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined.

76-2-402. Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined.
(1) (a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that force or a threat of force is necessary to defend the person or a third person against another person's imminent use of unlawful force.
(b) A person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if the person reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to the person or a third person as a result of another person's imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(2) (a) A person is not justified in using force under the circumstances specified in Subsection (1) if the person:
(i) initially provokes the use of force against the person with the intent to use force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant;
(ii) is attempting to commit, committing, or fleeing after the commission or attempted commission of a felony; or
(iii) was the aggressor or was engaged in a combat by agreement, unless the person withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person his intent to do so and, notwithstanding, the other person continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful force.
(b) For purposes of Subsection (2)(a)(iii) the following do not, by themselves, constitute "combat by agreement":
(i) voluntarily entering into or remaining in an ongoing relationship; or
(ii) entering or remaining in a place where one has a legal right to be.
(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat from the force or threatened force described in Subsection (1) in a place where that person has lawfully entered or remained, except as provided in Subsection (2)(a)(iii).
(4) (a) For purposes of this section, a forcible felony includes aggravated assault, mayhem, aggravated murder, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, and aggravated kidnapping, rape, forcible sodomy, rape of a child, object rape, object rape of a child, sexual abuse of a child, aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and aggravated sexual assault as defined in Title 76, Chapter 5, Offenses Against the Person, and arson, robbery, and burglary as defined in Title 76, Chapter 6, Offenses Against Property.
(b) Any other felony offense which involves the use of force or violence against a person so as to create a substantial danger of death or serious bodily injury also constitutes a forcible felony.
(c) Burglary of a vehicle, defined in Section 76-6-204, does not constitute a forcible felony except when the vehicle is occupied at the time unlawful entry is made or attempted.
(5) In determining imminence or reasonableness under Subsection (1), the trier of fact may consider, but is not limited to, any of the following factors:
(a) the nature of the danger;
(b) the immediacy of the danger;
(c) the probability that the unlawful force would result in death or serious bodily injury;
(d) the other's prior violent acts or violent propensities; and
(e) any patterns of abuse or violence in the parties' relationship.

 

[PleaseDear]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-14 AT 04:59PM (MST)[p]This guy ^


"Just curious, is this where the term "Utard" comes from?"

For sure in this 1 case jm77....ha

Thank goodness the Wyo. Owners kid 'aint' a negro---!

Robb

 

[WapitiBob]

What happened to the good 'ol beat down?

 

[TOPGUN]

To the OP: I guess maybe we should question your sanity when you know the name of the people involved and rather than contacting then directly and getting the matter straightened out with them you chose to come on a hunting website to post what you did. That makes about as much sense as your initial post saying you were ready to draw on the kid, rather than just going to your vehicle and moving it since you stated you were blocking the gate. The whole thing is ridiculous for you to post this on a website and state you were ready to shoot a kid over something like that, regardless of what the statutes you posted state. You should have left this off the net and taken care of it with the family when you know their name. Talking that BS about carrying and being ready to draw puts you right in that Utard category jm77 mentioned!!!

 

[deerslayer88]

There is no reason to assume things. I never stated I know the families name. If I knew their name I would have wrote them a well worded letter and mailed it to them (detailing the situation and how to handle themselves better). It is not hard to find someones address to write a letter we have google now days, you do need to know the name first and the name is not listed. Also as for this individual being a child he was probably 17-20 years old and a similar build to me.

Lastly I am not going to continue to go back and forth with you Topgun if you want a internet fight go elsewhere, the point of this post is to hopefully find the family and educate them end of story. I also could in theory go back up there and ask but why in the heck would I want to go looking for trouble. I don't see much benefit in egging crap on.

If you have read this far and know who this family is feel free to either PM me their info (email is fine), or PM asking for my email and I will email you back to have them contact me. The point here is to rectify the situation so it does not happen again, not to go after the family. If I wanted to go after them I would have posted the individuals license plate number, and photos of the area.


?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams

 

[TOPGUN]

You're the one that came on here and made the stupid post starting this thread, not me! All you needed to do was go to the Register of Deeds to find the name of the person who owns that land and then contact them direct by phone or letter. By coming on here and doing what you did it makes all of us, not just me, wonder what in the world you were thinking. If you're old enough to carry, you ought to be smart enough to know that this was a stupid idea to start with and to then tell the world that you were carrying and may have killed a young kid over something so stupid is well---STUPID!!! End of discussion!!!