Hdude and others, is your will broken?

2

202typical

Long Time Member
Messages
3,123
Goal of Iraqi enemies is to demoralize us
The strategic center of gravity for this war is American willpower. Our enemies know that they cannot defeat us in any conventional military contest, so instead, their aim is to demoralize us, to shake our resolve. They know that their only hope is in gruesome, made-for-TV atrocities to undermine the confidence of the American public. Their purpose is not to win, but to convince us that we can't win, to break our will, to convince us to cut and run. Unfortunately, that strategy is not illogical. We have run before.

Past failures of will are among the main reasons we are under siege today. Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990 because he believed that Americans couldn't take casualties. He looked at Vietnam & Lebanon and concluded that the Americans didn't have the guts for a really tough fight. America's failure to confront Saddam during the 1990s, as he thwarted weapons inspectors and economic sanctions and corrupted the oil for food program, only spurred him further.

Fred D Thompson
 
Demoralization is a huge weapon the enamy uses against us. "Some" of the people become weak then the politicions see this and fear for their votes and they become weak while the enemy increases their attacks because they smell blood.

You would think the liberals in this country could see this but it is plain to see they can't.
What do they want ? Pull the troops out, let the enemy build up strangth, regroup and attack us again, destroy an american city maybe.
No, we need to be smarter than the enemy and the way to do that is by not thinking like a liberal at all.

Some people don't want this war and they think we should just "nice" Al Quida to death, wish we could but you know what? it just don't work that way.

There will come a day when the libs. can go about eating their double cheese burgers and XL shakes for breakfast, marry each other even if they both stand while peeing, have open borders become law,ect. ect. but it's gonna be awhile.
 
What's your point? Bush and his crew have had full control of this thing since 9/11 and where are we?

Bin Laden is free

The government says Al Quida is the strongest they've been since 9/11 in a report out today.

Iraq is in chaos, even the republicans are saying enough already.

Iran is charging ahead knowing we're bogged down in Iraq and our relations around the world are so strained they can thumb their nose at us.

You've failed on every attempt you've tried, yet we're to blame? what are you smoking? or are you just that dumb? America's will isn't broken, the whitehouse and their policies are. shut up, slink off and lick your wounds, you aren't going to stick this turd in our pocket.
 
Dude,

It's funny, there are many here that have countering opinions to mine which I can respect and even embrace. Nemont is a perfect example, at least if we differ I know he speaks on an informed basis.

Jodog and others leave me questioning our educational system, this administration's blind supporters, and the future of this great nation.

Jodog there is more to the internet than Latex Fetishes and MM. As for Libs, go buy a books on tape cassette and learn about our founding fathers. After that go to the local elementary school and find a 5th grader to explain to you that Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. Afterall, knowludge is strangth!
 
FTW,

How true, these clowns no doubt blame the other team for winning everytime they lose, and that's often. they don't learn from or even admit their mistakes they only seek someone to blame. the libs didn't want the war, but didn't stop it, therefore it's the libs fault we lost. in their mind there's nothing like a good 'ol republican dictatorship to rid the world of dictators. yeah, they aren't to bright but they are entertaining. kind of like monkees, I get a kick out of them too.
 
"libs didn't want the war" Dude every single one of them except Obama voted to go to war in Iraq. Where have you been?

Then you said what do we have to show for it. Well how bout not one attack here at home? How bout many foiled attacks? Yea don't mention that cause it does not fit your defeatest agenda. Briliant.

You guys honestly believe the Dems are going to pull our troops from Iraq? Come on you must be insane if you think they will do that. What the moron Dems will do is lower troop levels making it even more difficult on our troops and their safety.

You libs to not have the stomach for war. Pansies each and every one of you!!!!
 
No stomach for war? how about tired of a failed occupation? we took out the Iraqi government and the war part was over, the occupation will go on forever. the troop levels will be pulled down , in a bipartisain agreement .

Prove attacking a country who did nothing to us is why there haven't been any more attacks here at home, there have been attempts but law enforcement foiled them, not military action in Iraq. you still think Bin Laden is an Iraqi don't you? sorry I forgot , you don't like to talk about Bin Laden , that doesn't fit your defeated agenda.
 
202, youre calling 4 men and one woman, two of which have had 3 and one had 4 tours during this conflict, and one of them two tours in the first one, and a brig gen who told me back in 1999 that OBL and terror was the big threat to the USA, pansies?

Wow, if that aint troop bashing and undermining our troops nothing in this world is. . .

I think you just lot any respect you had from me. . . you suck!
 
Easy tf, I believe he was aiming his frustration on the politicians and all the SP folks who are against this war mainly because it is "Bush's war". I don't think he ever questioned any military personnel on their commitment to making America safer. But, for every one military person who agrees with you, I can find 8 that agree with 202. The OVERWHELMING majority of military personnel support the war in Iraq, which IS part of the war on terror, not the only part, but a major part of it. If you cannot/won't admit that as fact, then you deny logic and reason. Many who are against the war today were in favor of it when it was popular to support the war, the problem with too many politicians is they are guided by polls, instead of being guided by principles and convictions. Love him or hate him, Bush is standing by his convictions, instead of caving into the left driven poll data. I have more respect for him standing strong in the face of attacks, instead of being like Hillbilliary and kissing up to the far-left extremists, and having her position of the moment being dictated by whatever audience she is addressing at the time.

PRO
 
You're dam right T. Like a give two s_ _ _s what you think of me.

As for Dude your pal OBL himself has said Iraq is the central war for Alquida. Least you forgot that too.

Oh and typical of a Lib to call our troops ocupiers and not liberators.
 
O yea, i forgot, if youre IN the war, fighting, you cant be "against" the occupation or the people who brought it on - regardless of political party. You see, the men in my family while serving this nation, learned the creed, and the honor and the duty, but they kept their heads about them, they still think for themselves. . . No disrespect to anyone, but just because youre IN does not mean you cant appose the war. . .

YOu guys are running out of sales pitch, and GW is on his way to putting the nose of his own plane into the dirt. . .
 
Question for you Tf, how many of the people fighting in Iraq for the United States Military signed up/re-enlisted AFTER the Iraq war started?..........

Answer, every single one of them! You imply there is a good chunk of them against this war, where is your proof to support such a claim? If the number of soldiers against the war was anywhere you imply, then why is re-enlistments at record levels? Go ahead, spin it.

I guess because Cindy Sheehan is against the war after losing her son, MOST parents who have lost a child in the war are for immediate withdrawal, right? The fact is, there is a small percentage of soldiers, parents, republicans in agreement with Cindy Sheehan, but until you have PROOF to prove me wrong, I will continue to believe MOST of those laying it on the line believe in what they are doing. Now, who is supporting the tropps and who is for allowing them to die for NOTHING?

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-07 AT 10:29AM (MST)[p]Hey, MISTER ALL KNOWING 202, who the hell are our troops liberating now? Huh, who the hell are WE liberating? Iraqies? I thought you just said Iraq's the central war on terror? Does this mean to liberate we must fight terror even if that means we have to kill the very people we are trying to liberate - in our efforts to liberate, which clan to we shoot firts 02?

Sure easy to puff your chest, say support our troops, and then rock back on your fat-behind with your monster truck and house of oil and gas and throw stones. Get your dead behind out there and fight like a man or shut up!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-07 AT 10:34AM (MST)[p]Hey pro, you ever been in the military? Your dad, or borthers or cousins, or relations ever in Vitnam, or desert storm, or wwii or wwi or the current GWB war?

I'm not making light of this, I want to know how much you know about the military and the code and conduct and the proud men and woman that serve. I want to know if how deeply you understand the issues. If you've been in my hats off to you and you know exactly what I'm talking about.

If I were in I would not leave my brother on the battle field either. . .
 
Tf, I have never served, I tried TWICE, was denied twice for health reasons, I have a hole in my heart(reason for being a conservative I suppose) and I have three crushed vertabrea. My dad and three of his four brothers all served, in fact, one of my uncles served two tours in Nam, the first Gulf War, a tour in Afgan, and is currently deployed in Iraq as a spec ops. My best friend since 4th grade is on his second tour over there as well. So, I feel 'qualified' in my opinion.

Since the military is not an option for me, I 'fight' for them here. Those calling for immediate withdrawal do NOT do so out of interest for the troops, they(MOST) do it because they oppose EVERYTHING Bush does or tries to do, or because of some STUPID opinion poll.

As for being occupiers, how long have we been on the Korean island? How long have we been occuping Europe? How about Japan? Cuba? I dare say we have been in these places alot longer than Iraq, course my math may be a little fuzzy on this.

PRO
 
who cares were not talking about those countries. But since you brought it up, dont ya think all that might just have a little something to do with why were still in this battle?

And so you understand why some go back while other's choose not too. Just because one military man dislikes the war, and one wants to be in it, does not mean either one is wrong, it means that what they want. I dont chastise guys or call them libs or necons that are in the services, they are mostly at the end of the hose and doing what they are told. . . they mostly are thinking men and women, but they took the oath and are trained to protect their brothers so most never would leave a battle or even walk away from one if given the chance, until the Commander N Chief orders them out through the chain of command. . .


Come on where's NeMont and all the others. . . .
 
Why not admit the war is coming to an end and accept it? if we start getting weekly attacks from ex Iraqi terrorist you can say I told you so. if we don't then you were wrong all along and we stayed too long as it was. I think you know this war was a mistake, if we pull out and the world keeps on spinning you'll be proven idiots. only one way to find out huh?

As for what the military thinks or wants get off it, while their opinion is valid it's not up to them to call the shots or run the war. you act like they have nightly campfire get togethers, make smores and roast marsh mellows while deciding the direction of the war and the next step to take. I respect them and appreciate their efforts but their opinion has never dictated the direction of any war, never will.
 
And yet, you feel Congress should be directing the war. WTF?

The war on terror will go on long after you and I are wormfood. Only one way to find out? Are you serious? Good plan, lets pull back and wait for them to attack us here AGAIN. Like it or not, MOST of those we are fighting in IRAQ are terrorists. If we pull back with our tails between our legs, do you really believe they will not attack us AGAIN here? Please tell me you are smarter than that.

PRO
 
What happened Pro, and 202? Who are we now liberating? Come on, you want to be there so badly, who should we shoot first? What do they look like, who are they?


You guys are too easy, now you want to shift yet again the debate over to "the war on terror." So, are we liberators in this war on terror, and if so, who are we liberating and who are the terrorists.... ???????

YOU CANT WIN a terrorist battle with guns, especially when the enemy is global, and willing to kill themselves to kill you.

I dont think that taking it to them over there has done an ounce of good for our "homeland security"

These guys are slowly trickling, or flooding into our country and over the course of the next 100 yeas will plot from within. We can spray all the lead and uranium we want over there, we aint going kill them off, and we aint making our dirt safer! We need to make this a war of a different kind and change tactics, more money in counter terrorism and CIA and less in lead and uranium. . . The mind, data, and information battle with solid communications between the CIA, FBI, parts of the military, local and state police is what protects us in the USA. And so long as we build that system in a balanced and open way, we will be far better off than shooting bullets at anyone wearing a towel, or looking fat. . .

If anything, the war in Iraq has distracted us from the real battle and that's against terrorism. the minute knuckle head GW said that we're in a crusade, was the minute I know he did not know WTF he was talking about, and he has not learned much since. . .
 
You're right Tf, we should just sit down and talk with the terrorists, maybe we should invite Bin Laden to Camp David for a Summit. Maybe have Jimma Carter be the negotiator. Death is the only thing they understand. If we leave the area, there will never be peace in that neck of the world, NEVER. There are hundreds od thousands of Iraqi's who dared vote because we ARE there. Why would you advocate leaving them to certain slaughter? Iraq is part of the war on terror, you libs fail to either admit or realize that. I believe the war in Iraq was/is needed to fight global terrorism. This war cannot be just focused on the Taliban and Bin Laden, the recent attacks in GB should tell you that.

The one place GWB has dropped the ball is on the border, seal it off, and export every illegal SOB of middle Eastern decent! Screw the PC crowd, do what needs to be done, here and in Iraq.

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-07 AT 01:00PM (MST)[p]Who are we there to liberate? Which Iraqis, who's vote are WE going to count. Hell, the right wing just put out a report that says there's zero progress.

No surprise, because these idiots in the WH and the adnimistration that started this war, dont understand tribes, they sent in the wrong guys to help build the government, they set up the wrong metrics and now don't even know how to measure progress or even define it. . . Classic cluster you know what. . .


Where did I say, or even suggest, sit down with OBL (BTW, that would be a lot better than what GW has done, hell, he cant even find the guy) I said better communication - THAT MEANS Internally, OUR OWN GUYS NOT WITH OBL! Until we win the information, data, and intelligence battle, we NEVER will the war on terror - ever! This is tribal war and unless you understand tribal war and issues, you have zero clues what's really going on. . . Just like your hero GW!

One more chance, show me where once I said negotiate or sit down and talk with the enemy, show me once. . . .You guys her some HanoyJane sound bite and past it on everyone that disagrees with you, no matter what their opinion. .

Come on pull up your boot straps and get to the real issues. . .
 
How do you figure Iraq is ground zero for terrorist? we hear that over and over,just a lot of hypethetical Bubba chatter we have no reason to believe .

A report out yesterday from our own government says Al Qaida is strong and getting stronger, remember them? yeah that's right , remember 9/11? now your getting it, Bin Laden is part of Al Qaida, he never was an Iraqi! he's a Suadi! one of our middle east buddies. we didn't get him because we were obsessed with a 2 bit dictator with no WMD's.

So Bin Laden and Al Qaida are doing well, Iraq is a disaster and Iran has more control of Iraq than we do. just where does a prolonged occupation of Iraq solve all of our woes? com'on now give us an answer. the whole country is onto your ignorant crap spewing by now , even the more intellegent republicans have come around. enough already we're " changing the course" , accept it or cry like babies it matters not.
 
Tfinal;

I notice that you keep referring to the "the Creed" and all the family members that have served in our military. I have just one question, have you served your country and what branch of the military and years of service.
To save you the time of asking me, RA19839508, 1965-1968.
I will not bother asking dude.

RELH
 
Dude, since you are the only 'enlightened' ones. Pray tell, what do we do? Bring all the troops home? Continue 'talking' with Iran? Close our eyes bury our heads in the ground with our arses sticking up to be buggered by Al Quida? Hold hands and sing vile songs like "Imagine"? Call Iran and tell them the world is their oyster, America doesn't have the heart or sac to fight evil? Make Carter UN Ambassador to 'chit-chat' with those who wish to do us harm, so he can tell them how America wronged them and is the worst offender on the planet?

Please, enlighten this conservative cowboy. I am in dire need of you sharing your wisdom. Maybe you can ask one of the illegals earning you money for his view.

PRO
 
Nope did not sign up, did not want too. I served in the civil service and still do. . .

Keep saying? I think i asked so that I could get a better understanding of how one thinks that if youre "in" you must believe in the mission. Every man in my family's been in but me, that goes back to long before the ww1. In fact, all but one of my family that is "in" or retired thinks we have and have had the wrong approach. . . This includes officers down to enlisted. I dont frown on them for NOT supporting Bush's strategy, they are human, but when asked to fight, they do.

did you have a point with your question?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-07 AT 10:23PM (MST)[p]yeah, I have a point. I was pretty sure that would be your answer.I'll let you guess what gave you away.
I'll appreciate it that in the future you just speak for your self. You have not earned the right to speak for any of us that have served in the military, so do not throw it around like you have done and try to make everyone believe that you have a military perspective that you are using as the basis for your arguments. As for your family members, they can speak for themselfs, they have earned that right to speak from a military point of view.
As for family members who have served. I can trace mine all the way back to the American Revolution to Viet Nam. That includes enlisted men and officers, but you do not see me or other veterans on here throwing it around like you tried in pushing your liberal viewpoint.

RELH
 
just asked a question, what's in your head is your business, dont put your thoughts in my head, your acting like woman now. . . Dont get me wrong, I love women, but they like to get inside our heads. . .

LOL

little over board dontcha think relh?
 
RELH you and I have never butted button before so I would like to keep it that way. So I will not spew hyperbale or try to diminish you as a person. I would like to respectfully point out just a few things.

I see you have played the "you never served card" to TF, but you failed to include PRO's as well. Is that because he shares your pro-war view or you just mistakenly bypassed his thread?

As for PRO, well let's just say his informed credibility went out the window after he mentioned the Korean Island. idiot

If you are a tax-paying and law abiding citizen are you allowed to voice your opinion on the war you are paying for?

If you are a parent that has never served, but your son or daughter is currently serving are you allowed to have an opinion on the war?

Relh, I'm not looking to push buttons, really I'm not. But the way you make it appear unless you served you are not entitled to an opinion on our military or the war but you are entitled to pay for it.

I've read your posts on many occasion relh, I know you are not a blindly loyal pedantic bag of warm chicken livers like that slinky spined Hannity blow-up doll humping piece of trash 202. Which is why I am actually and respectfully interested in your opinion.

202 "You think I give 2 XXXX's about what you think of me" Yes, idiot or you wouldn't have posted that response...Maybe you and PRO need to take a brain storming vacation to the beautiful Isles of Korea.
 
Forthewall;
go back and re-read all the posts made by tfinal on this subject and you will see who tried to be a wannabe and give the impression that he was speaking from the viewpoint of a military person when he even admits that he did not want to serve after I called him on it. There is no way he has the earned any right to speak for me or any other veteran while giving the impression he was speaking from a military point of view like he did.
as for Pro, he should not either, but at lease he tried to inlist and was turned down. I do not agree with quite a few things that he has said, but he did not come across as a military wannabe expert that Tfinal tried to push in his post to get his view across. If tfinal wants to speak as just a concerned citizen, fine by me he has that right. He does not need to slant things as he did by trying to make his views as the views of a military veteran as he tried to do. In plain English, he is a phony and got caught at it. He has lost all credibility with me and I will treat him as such in the future.
Now why do you feel that you have to defend him? I would think with his knowledge of "the creed" he would be able to do it himself.

RELH
 
Did I miss something? what difference does it make at all if you've served when it comes to your opinion on Iraq? my dad was a WWII vet as I remember he only had one vote and nobody from the Pentagon ever called him and asked for his opinion during Korea ( that island? ) or Vietnam.

All vets deserve every benifet they were promised and our gratitude for their service, they do not however have any more right to start or run a war than anyone else. this argument is going nowhere.
 
All right, you smartasses, I was having a liberal moment(also known as a brain fart) and said Korean island instead of Korean pennisila(sp?, another liberal moment). I guess that qualifies me to be a democrat.

As for dude asking what does serving have to do with having an opinion on the war, it was your fellow SP Tf that brought that into play, ask him.

My point is, most of those over there fighting in Iraq believe in the mission and the cause. Just because some sissy, illegal immigrant hiring, NW dipwad believes the war is lost, doesn't make it so. Being a monday morning general must be nice. I have yet to hear any good/valild solutions from the SP's on how to defeat the terrorists and solve the Iraq situation.

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-07 AT 01:25PM (MST)[p]As for being occupiers, how long have we been on the Korean island? How long have we been occuping Europe? How about Japan? Cuba? I dare say we have been in these places alot longer than Iraq, course my math may be a little fuzzy on this.

PRO

RELH, I'm really a nice guy and I am just going to be mean. I would like to spare all of us of that. Could you please advise PRO that he did not suffer a brain fart, but a complete brain blow-out.

Enlighten him so we can at least raise our discussion to a 9th grade level. His math maybe fuzzy? That ain't all.
 
>O yea, i forgot, if youre
>IN the war, fighting, you
>cant be "against" the occupation
>or the people who brought
>it on - regardless of
>political party.


You are wrong on that one TF. We have every right to question and speak our opinion on the enlisted side. The only one's that can be punished are the officers for speaking out. 90% of the military is enlisted and at least 90% support the war b/c we see the good going on over there, not b/c we are too weak minded to speak against it.
 
>O yea, i forgot, if youre
>IN the war, fighting, you
>cant be "against" the occupation
>or the people who brought
>it on - regardless of
>political party.

You are wrong on that one TF. We have every right to question and speak our opinion on the enlisted side. The only one's that can be punished are the officers for speaking out. 90% of the military is enlisted and at least 90% support the war b/c we see the good going on over there, not b/c we are too weak minded to speak against it.


Don't matter to me who served and who didn't. FTW mentioned being informed. If you are going to be against it at least have the common sense and knowledge that good and great things are happening over there. Otherwise you can't even follow the lib advice of your own, staying informed. Libs just don't listen to the right about the good things. THAT IS THE PROBLEM I HAVE WITH PEOPLE LIKE DUDE. The lib media refuses to report it for fear of making Bush look good.

No matter what is pointed out it is blown out as fantasy or BS.
You are all entitled to your opinion, it is your RIGHT!! I am happy to fight for that right for you.
Pro is right about all who are in now having joined after 911 or re-up'd after.

Dude,

Above you claim us right side guys do nothing but blame the libs. Well that is just what you've done in all of your posts, blame the right.
 
How ya doing HFX4, as always thanks for chiming in I don't see you post enough these days. Ya know I hate hitting this thread so quickly as it might be conceived I am running blocker for Hdude & TF. They are big boys and can answer for themselves although I do think TF was being sarcastic. Ya how that 202 has perfected the art of getting under ones skin.

I believe our soldiers are this country's greatest ambassadors and every day there are thousands of victories in the campaign of winning allies amongst the population of Iraq.

To establish peace all sides must de-escalate the current violence. Only through de-escalation can real talks of rebuilding and unification begin.

The current government in Iraq is crippled, lacking in integrity. Our soldiers find themselves in a mission where ther is no defined enemy line and deceitful alliances. The incidents of our soldiers eliminating 6 Iraqi policemen is one of many many and shows the difficult situation our soldiers are confronting.

As long as our forces are the predominate form of security (policing) for armed civil uprisings we are an occupying force.
Once the Iraqis can become the predominate form to secure such actions our status will to change to liberators.

Zinni & Shinsiki were honorable and correct in their assesment of 300,000+ troops upon initial invasion. Their brilliance outlined winning the war, the security, and the peace. A large initial strike force allows force redeployment at a scheduled and steady rate ever spiraling downward as stability and transfer to new government takes place.

Somebody screwed the pooch at the state dept. when Turkey decided at the last minute "Up Yours we're a new democracy, kick us some money or talk to the hand" leaving us with Plan B.

A lightning strikeforce "blitzkreig" stabbing into the heart of Baghdad. Plan A was to be a pincher move from the North through Turkey with 65,000 troops and equipment. This left our northern strike force floating off the coast of Lebannon weeks prior to the invasion.

Anyways, how does one fight when there is no pronounced enemy line and a government structure frought with corruption and inefficiency?

Iraq's population has had a dictatorship for 40 years. 40 years of rule by a single party where the government is the largest employer. A government drawn along religious sectarian lines as the Baath Party was over-whelmingly Sunni.

Due to a flawed government restructuring the Sunni/Baathist now feel isolated and detached. After 40 years of feeling the same way the Sunni's currently do but only after 4 years. The Shiite have endured much and have lost patience to stand-by and not retaliate at what they perceive to be the aggressors.

We are finally establishing some alliances amongst our one time foes. Sunni leaders in some areas have become dis-enfrachised with Al Queda and have finally realized they do not share a united agenda for peace. The bombing of Holy places only enrage the Shiite which view most Sunni's as Sadam's henchmen and bombers of the their Mosques, killer and torturers of their sons and daughters.

Somewhere in this mess we find our finest involved in security some 4 years later. No more coalition of the willing, it-s mostly our finest kicking-ass every single day. I hate polls, but some suggest the majority of Iraqis by a rather large margin believe our presence is not aiding in peace or unification in Iraq. If true, who would know better other than your everyday Iraqi.

Kurds are great and speak a different language and hate Iraqis so they're cool. No problems the Kurds, they have iron clad security. The south is pretty secure, more secure by far than the central regions.

A phased 6 month re-deployment to reduce troop size by 60% and redefine the mission parameters. Remaining troops will only serve as a secondary military strike force with air support should Iraqi police and army forces fail to curtail mass civil unrest. This will keep a dual purpose carrier in the area
given Iran's proximity. A 3-year re-training period with secheduled redeploy for the remaining 50,000 trainer given overall peaceful unification is taking place.
 
Fwall;

I would laught my head off, except it is too darn serious to be laughting, that a member of this forum could come up with something as logical as what you just printed.
Too bad the liberal dems in congress could not have figured that one out and offered it. Also too bad the GOP members of congress do not end up pushing it as a viable replacement plan in the event the current plans do not work out.
I personally believe that gaining a moderate gov. in Iraq is a key issue to controlling the radical countries like Iran in that region. Surround those countries with more moderate thinking countries that will not tolerate the radicals will put a strangle hold on them in the future.
We may have to allow the Sunni and Shiite battle it out in the area of Bagdad and we pull our troops back to the outlaying areas that are more stable. we need to be very careful about taking sides to avoid repercusions from other middle East countries that may view us as being for one side of the Shiite-Sunni faction.
This is not just a fight to control Iraq, this is a fight to control radical Muslims in that part of the country that would again attack us in the future. Iraq is just one pawn in the big picture. We have to get that pawn on our side before we can control the real radicals that infest Iran and Syria.
Instead of pawns, I should have used the term, "The domino theory". We have made progress in other countries in that area in the last 25 years, they might not be busom buddies, but they are not preaching to kill us. To stop now is committing suicide.
I still think we need to make more use of special forces on training the Iraqs military and police forces and acelerate the turning over of military and police duties to them with Americans in the advisor role. The Iraq gov. needs to cooperate by promoting officers and mid level personnel based on their preformance and not their loyalty to a certain sect group or their ability to be corrupt. Any military person worth his salt will tell you that to have a strong viable military force you have to have certain keys elements such as training, equitment, and strong leadership in your officers and squad leaders. take one of these elements and you cripple your capabilities to do the job.
Enought of the soapbox, we can argue till hades freezes over, the answer to this problems lies with our gov. and the gov. of Iraq. and the will of the people in both countries to decide what they really want for their future.

RELH
 
Fwall;

maybe I missed it!!! The only place where I can find that Pro may have been out of line was where he accused Dude of hiring illegals to make his money.
If that was thrown out there with no first hand knowlege of Dude's hiring practices, yes he was out of line. But if he has firsthand knowlege of Dude hiring illegal workers, then he called a spade a spade.

RELH
 
From what I've heard Pro has no first hand knowledge of anything useful. I'm not sure what he's a pro at but being a heterosexual myself his services are nothing I'll ever require if I guessed right.

Pro as flattering as it is you put so much stock in my opinion of this war and where it's headed, it's really not my call I'm sorry to say. you may want to save some of that derogative whining and sniveling strenght for later. a growing bipartisan majority in congress along with the vast majority of American's want this war wound down, and it's going to happen. all you have is the same old crap we've heard for the last five years, you can put it in the same place Bush will be putting it before long.
 
Dude;
Are you dodging the statement by Pro that you employ illegal aliens in your work, farming if I remember right. Sure sounds like it, but that is just a assumption on my part that your are being circumspect in your answer and went off to another subject like you normally do.

RELH
 
Dude admitted as much in another thread, stating it is impossible to survive in his line of work without hiring illegals. I can dig up his posts on this if needed, or a denial by dude.

I am pro democracy, everywhere, not just America. I am pro outdoors, hence the name. I am pro gun, pro hunting, pro life, pro acting on offense not waiting to react defensively. And lastly, I once was an outfitter and my business name was Porcupine Ridge Outdoors, or PRO for short. Any other questions I will answer and not duck, unlike yourself!

PRO
 
"As for being occupiers, how long have we been on the Korean island? How long have we been occuping Europe? How about Japan? Cuba? I dare say we have been in these places alot longer than Iraq, course my math may be a little fuzzy on this.

PRO"

O.K. RELH if you won't set PRO straight I will.

Pro since you have found Korea on the map and discovered it's a peninsula we can go directly to our current occupations of Europe, Japan, and Cuba.

We are not occupiers of Europe, Japan, and Cuba. We have bases in Germany, Japan, and Cuba. In Germany and Japan we have protectorate agreements put in place after WWII. We allow both countries to have nominal standing armies, however we are the predominant force for national military security.

Since the Korean War has never officially ended and is currently under an armestist(msp) our bases remain, as we are an ally of South Korea.

The United States owns Gitmo and U.S. citizens or military personnel never go outside of Camp Guantanamo and into Cuba or the Cuban Army will shoot them. And yes Pro, shots have been exchanged along the Gitmo perimeter in the past.

The U.S. military plays absolutely ZERO role in police actions or assistance with civil disturbances in any of these countries. We are Not occupiers!

As far as illegal immigrants? HUH What the hell does that have to do with a classic 202 cut, paste, and run special? Pro who Hdude hires has nothing to do with your complete lack of military definitions, world history, and events. Nice try to deflect your thoroughly incorrect and embarrasing statements on occupation.

Pro just because your fellow americans have a differing and may I add educated point of view, does not necesitate them being liberals.

RELH, just type FTW is correct Pro so we can move on!!!
 
Pro,
I have hired illegals in the past, find anyone with a field crew who says they haven't and they're a liar. sure you can hire a contractor who hires illegals for you if that makes you feel better. by law I'm not allowed to ask if they're legal or not, that's discrimination, you find out in a few months when their SS# come back bad. I only have two employees these days, a father and his son, yes they're both legal because of the last amnisty program.

Boy you're a hard hitting adversary landing punches like " waaaaa.. he hired an illegal " I'm reeling from that one.

For kicks try telling us how to solve the crises in Iraq before Bush's time is up, rather than worry about what a sinner I am. tick toc tick toc your time is running out , off you go.
 
Hdude, people like you thoroughly disgust me. You come on here and talk about everything you hate about GWB and the war on terrorism, but yet you then turn around and employ illegal aliens who for all you know could possibly be terrorists. People like you should be felons and put in prison for breaking the laws of this great land. But no you take advantage of the fact that nobody will enforce the law and use it to make money for yourself. Don't forget that our men and women in uniform are out protecting your right to choose to break the law. I have been a business owner for about 5 years now (construction)and everyday I have to compete against you people like you, but I suck it up and I guarantee that I don't make near as much money as I could if I hired illegals but the good lord sees to it that I make enough for doing things the right way. As for the rest of you who will say why are you turning this thread into an illegal immigration thread, I am not I am only pointing out that people like Hdude who come on here and act like they're so patriotic when they themselves screw the government so bad by hiring illegals are nothing more than huge pieces of $hit and therefore their opinions on other issues matter not.
 
californian forkhorn have you ever worked with any of these "Mexican terrorist" ? if you're stupid enough to think they have the ability to pull off anything big you're an idiot, most can't even drive a car.

How did I screw the government? I did withholdings on them same as any employee, when months later their SS# came back as no good the government gets to keep that money don't they? how will an illegal draw SS? do you think most busineses pay them cash under the table? why would you do that? that's illegal and you can't write their wages off your taxes or put WC on them incase they get hurt on the job. not asking a Mexican if he's a wet back or not isn't illegal infact asking him that is illegal.

Go cry to Bush about your illegal worker problem, I needed workers and people who happened to be hispanic wanted a job, so I'm supposed to run off anyone who looks like a possible Mexican to make you happy? and to be a patriotic American? shove it. I didn't re hire anyone who's number came back bad and I paid them over minimum wage with full withholdings taken. many corperations and large companies hire illegals knowingly yet you get your panties in a wad over some cowtown rancher giving them a few jobs nobody else would do, you're a moron.

What's the matter anyway, is taking pot shots at me easier than telling us how great things are going in Iraq? I thought so.
 
Dude, don't try to turn this around on me, I didn't do anything illegal like you criminals do. Oh yeah and don't give me that line of BS about SS #'s. So as soon as you found out their numbers were no good, you fired them. Yeah right. You did what everyone else does and pay them cash. I believe you that you took out their withholdings, only I would bet the farm that it didn't go to the government. There is no reason in this world to hire illegals, unless your going to cheat the system. Work Comp my ass if one of them would have got hurt, you would have said you have never seen that person before. You know how I know this, because you're a liberal democrat who want the illegals here living off of our welfare and government aid programs and taking work from US citizens. I talk to good working people everyday who are becoming impoverished because the damn illegals are driving their wages down. A skilled certified electrician should make $15 to $20 an hour in residential work. Instead companies are hiring illegals and paying them $7.00/hr and these people are wiring our homes. Yeah that's what I want, some dumbass making $7.00/hr who speaks no english coming over here taking all the work and then sending their money back to Mexico. So you are just contributing to the problem, albeit a small contribution, in my book if you help create the problem, you're still just a piece of $hit!
 
The more you talk the stupider you sound. I only hired most of them for a month or less so they're long gone before I know about their legal status. as far as withholdings, insurance and and money under the table I have far too much to lose for stupid tricks like that. if you think I'd take a chance on a run in with the feds over a few bucks for some workers then you think I'm as stupid as you are. go play in the street.
 
And another thing tell me exactly how a nonresident alien is to fill out his W-4 form. Can they claim exempt from withholding? How should they request their withholding, (single,married,etc.) and if they are from Mexico, how many allowances can they claim and also what should they write above the dotted line on Line 6 of form W-4.

This should help us determine if you are telling the truth about withholdings.
 
Wow, you have quite a following Hdude. From Iraq to your a piece a shet and illegal hiring liberal elitist dem. Impressive!

Where does everybody get the idea that Hdude is? A. A liberal B. Democrat C. Hates all things Bush D. Responsible for NAFTA and our porous southern border.

Self-admitted Bush voting Republican
Liberal? Not really, more of a moderate
Agrees with Bush Admin. on Guest Worker Program, Korea Talks.
Employment: Self, agricultural
State: Oregon
Married: Don't think so...lucky s.o.b.

CAFHorn I too am a CA res and bus. owner we both know how many illegals are working on the west coast, even mentioning Hdude is ridiculous. You're pissed we get it! Check archives, this subject matter has been beaten to death.

Now CAFHorn if you would like to discuss a different subject than Post one up. Better yet pm Hdude and give him your best shot.

Just remember it would be easy to say all California Construction Co. owners are douch bags because of the large amount illegal labor they employ to avoid high workers compensation rates. Way to go CAFH, who cares what you do, self-admittedly your competitors employ illegals. Nice, nice little business you got going there. I guess we can assume you only use subs that verify the legal status of all their employess.

See where this is going CAFH...Again, I know your pissed! It is what it is, it sucks, I'm pissed, but to fix it you got to go to the source NAFTA, Borders, Workers Comp. Reform, and Citizenship process i.e. What has the Bush Administration been doing for the last 6 years?

Interesting Fact: Federally contracted Fencing Co. that was involved with constructing the new fencing along our southern borders were found to have been employing illegals.

Anyways brother I see you are new here and this place could use a little more left coast representation. Now I got cold beers in the cooler, we'll get some straps going later. Oh and there a bottle of Jack in the cooler too! If ya still can't unwind go see D-13r he'll bowl you up with the chronic brother.

Welcome aboard!
 
ca..forked..,

I wish the contractors in my area hadn't spoiled our wet backs with $15 and hour jobs. Now that the big boom is over they don't want to come back to the farm for $7 an hour.

JB
 
True story, where can you find anyone for $7 an hour? minimum wage in Oregon is 7.85 and you can't get anyone to work for that.

Detective forkhead, 90% of them claim a bunch of kids on their paperwork, should I ask them if they're lying ? that should clear things right up. maybe make them bring their kids to the job sight and I'll stamp their forehead to validate them as real dependants? or should I use my branding iron so they can't be used as dependants by anyone else?

What ever you're on either quit it or OD so we can get back to normal bickering around here.
 
First of all I don't use any subs I am a sub so I do not employ illegal aliens whatsoever. Second of all just because everyone else is doing it does that make it okay. I guess we should all be meth addicts because everyone else is doing it huh. And Hdude if you knew anything at all about W-4's you would know that (a) no nonresident alien is allowed to claim exempt, (b)they have to request withholdings as if they are single, regardless of their actual marital status, and (c)write nonresident alien or NRA above the dotted line on line 6 of form W-4.
Now if you don't know these things then I seriously doubt that you paid proper payroll taxes on them. But it's Ok because everyone else is doing it too. Ripping off the government which makes anyone who employs illegal aliens pieces of $hit.

Oh yeah, I am representing the west coast. I am sick and tired of all our tax dollars being wasted on these people. Many people have come across the borders legally and paid their dues and waited their waiting period and pay their taxes. Perfect example I had an appendectomy a few months ago. Coincidentally so did one of these illegals at the same time. While in the ER he was in the bed next to me and I heard the nurse tell the translator to get the paperwork ready for an emergency medical card. Mine cost me $3,000.00 and I have insurance. His was free. Total BS and the people that employ these people only enable this crap. You fools would cry like sissys if your favorite hunting spot was over run with them like mine is.
I am going to end it on this note. I represent the good hard working taxpaying people who just want to be law abiding, free, productive memebers of society who don't have to worry about terrorism, illegals filling up the jails and prisons, the burden on our healthcare system etc. So in order to accomplish this we MUST kick ass in Iraq and anywhere else that harbors terrorists, and we MUST secure the borders. Enough is enough!
 
Listen stupid they fill out their papers as if they're citizens. maybe they don't tell the truth 100% of the time? if we could deport all the illegals I'd be all for it, it's not going to happen.

Iraq is about done , get used to it.
 
caforkedhorn I agree with your post 100%
It's men thinking like you, that has made
america great. It's men like these liberals
on here that will tear it down.
You can't tell them anything anyway because
their will is broken.
 
THERE ISN'T A LIBERAL BONE IN MY BODY BUT ILLEGAL'S ARE NOT THE DUDE'S FAULT. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS SUPPOSED TO KEEP OUR BORDERS SECURE AND THEY HAVE FAILED FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS.

JB
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-07 AT 09:01PM (MST)[p]And, I think the greatest republican hero of our time, with the stroke of a pen, let a pile of them become "americans" or did you forget. . . RIP Ronny. . . .
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-07 AT 10:19PM (MST)[p] It's too late for the ones here now but what would it take to change the law so if you are born here to illegal parents, you're illegal? I haven't looked into this but it's a major reason we'll never be able to deport the parents, even if we chose to.
 
what it would take is an ammendment to the constitution. I don't believe it could ever happen.

JB
 
If that's the case you're right, the founding fathers probably didn't even know what a burrito was or they'ld have done things different.
 

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