Hate Guides?

[NV4Life]

Obviously the idea of using a guide raises some extreme emotions in some of the members of this forum. I want to know why the hatred of guides?

I'm not talking about high fenced hunts, high dollar Gov tag w/15 spotters and huge finders fees. But what's wrong with hiring a guide to help you hunt an area that you don't know and don't have time to spend on scouting before the hunt?

 

[GoatT]

I believe another question that applies as well is why do so many guys apply for hunts and then get on here and ask others for help. Don't get me wrong, asking for help is o.k., but so many apply for areas that they do not even know about just because they have a good chance of drawing. If I apply for a hunt, i will do as much research, scouting, etc. ahead of time to know if it is even worthwhile to put in for it.

I think it is the same as what you are asking kind of. The person hiring a guide does not want to do that much of the actual work of hunting. Many think that hunting is just going out and pulling the trigger. There is much more to it than that. Maybe it is just me, but hunting involves pre-season scouting, knowing your area, knowing your weapon(this means practice before the season not just the week or day before), studying maps and talking to biologists and all.

I think alot of folks dislike guides, because like myself, they enjoy all the hard work that goes into hunting on your own, and I think there are many on here that do just that. Yes, there are going to be those times where a tag is not filled, but in my book every hunt is succesful, even if you don't bag an animal. You can learn new parts to your hunting grounds, Where game moves, water holes, trails, roads, etc. So much is learned when it comes to hunting on your own and doing the actual work that makes it that much for rewarding.

Just throwing in my .02 for what it is worth.

 

[littlejoe]

I am shocked by the number of people that don't like guides because they are 100% DIY. I do the DIY as well but will use a guide when needed. No issue with it for me. Bottom line, I cannot get that much time off of work and travel out of state for days at a time to scout. Hard enough to get time off for the actual hunt itself very well everything else. I also think there is jealousy involved from some people. I know I have a friend that is jealous that I had the money to go on a guided hunt in BC. He doesn't believe in guides because he cannot afford the. Everyone has their reason I guess. I personally would rather see one guide and one hunter in the field than one hunter and 15 of his friends everywhere.

 

[Elkhunter96]

I have never used a guide, but one day would like to go on a guided hunt. I believe the hatred comes from jealousy because most MM members can't afford to hire one. I am in the same boat, but I don't hate guides just because they are out of my league financially at the moment. I also do not like to run into hunters with one guide and 10 spotters helping them on a Utah LE unit, that may be where the hatred comes from as well...

 

[kawboy]

I have also never used a guide. One day I will though, I am saving money for it every chance I get. I plan on going to Canada to chase a mule deer. I not only have no idea where to hunt canada, but I sure can't scout it.
Another reason I plan on finding a guide is to open my eyes to different tactics. I have had pretty good luck chasing animals with general tags in Ut. Now I want to go see how they do it in other places, maybe I will learn something, I fully intend to.



I'll tell you who it was . . . it was that D@MN Sasquatch!

 

[jodog]

I don't think anyone hates guides I think it's just another part of the money game that hunting is becoming. Just like on the other thread, you pay the outfitter but thats not enough you need to pay his guide. If your a NR you have to pay big bucks for the tag, big bucks for the outfitter, big bucks for everything, every one wants apiece of the action. Just like having a 15 man crew finding your bull, then when they schedual you in to shoot it, it's silly. I don't know but I don't want some guy pulling me along by the sleeve telling me to shoot or be quite, like you see on tv. Buy a GPS.... DIY.....

 

[justr_86]

I will go on a guided hunt, same as kawboy. It won't be somewhere close to home and I can learn different tactics that might help me when hunting my old stomping grounds.

 

[marley]

I hunted for 10 days with a guide in Alaska last year. It was a backpack hunt and according to my GPS and google earth I put 155 miles on my boots with a full pack in 10 days. Both my friend and I lost most of our toe nails and the ones I kept were black. My friends big toes were completely numb for 6 months. No one can tell me that when you go guided you are just the trigger man!!!

I fully agree with what was said about learning new ways and tactics to hunt. Even though I didn't get my sheep I learned more on that hunt from a very worn in guide than I could've possibly learned in 20 years of hunting on my own. Looking back I would pay big money just to learn half the things that my guide has forgotten. But my guided hunt has definately made me a better DIY hunter.

I don't know where the hatred comes from really.....pride, jealousy, money.... who knows but it is usually the guys who have never done it that pipe up the most against it.

Guided, with 15 friends and family, or by yourself....WHO CARES IT'S BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE I CAN THINK OF DOING!!!!!

 

[mmwb]

I suppose different people have different ideas of why they don't like guides. I don't have a problem with them. I've never used one, but have known several. Like every profession, some are better than others. People research outfitters before buying a service, but the specific guide is at least as important.

People will pay a good chunk of change for a class or seminar to learn new skills. Education is expensive. If you get a good guide, it will likely be worth the cost of the hunt whether you get your animal or not.

 

[hossblur]

I would say I hate the idea more than the man. Sorry but there is something to be said for scouting, cooking, setting up camp, finding, killing, cleaning, and dragging. It seems that guys who use guides(not once in a lifetime, or out of state) but for pretty much all there hunting aren't really interested in hunting, they like the killing and the picture taking, and the score. All of which have very little to do with hunting. Then there has been the evolution of guiding, from locals who sell some knowledge and perhaps access, to what we have now. Hunting lodges that rival the hilton. Cooking school grads as camp cooks. More and more hunts are sold like golf get aways, or cruises. "Come enjoy 4 star lodging, french cuisine, on staff massuse. Our guides will take you out in the field where we have a 100% success rate. Base line pricing is 350 for elk, 180 for deer. Each point afterward is $1000. Your trophy will be taken off the field and professionally butchered then given to the charity of your choice. Sneak in a round of golf, or a sight seeing trip to round out your outdoor experience."

Again, I made up every ounce of that sales pitch, but I bet if you look around the internet you can find a "outifitter" offering at least one of is not all of the above mentioned. Again, I hunt muzzleloader out of a trailer. If you hunt with a bow, off a horse and sleep in a pup tent, your more of a hunter than me. But in that same vein, if you fly in, are picked up, and then led around by some dude, your less of a hunter than either of us. Doesn't make you evil, just makes me honest.

 

[HorseCreek]

I don't hate guides. I have always thought that if you have the money to pay a guide, you could probably afford to make a few scouting trips for yourself. There are some exceptions like a non res wilderness WY hunt, or hunts out of the country. I prefer to hunt on my own terms. That being said, I would like to hunt the Wind Rivers!
Traditional only >>>------->

 

[Sniper1]

I think most people on here are right. Most people dont hate guides alot just like the satisfaction of knowing everything it took to down a great buck or bull was done alone. For instance the buck me and the little brother got this year. I spent countless hours after work each week all summer long finding good bucks. I put miles and miles on my boots. Opening day it was all worth it when we stalked and let the air out of 28" 176 buck on public land. Took us 9 hours to get him out but the satisfaction of that was un real. It dont happen like that everyday for a DIY hunter where with a guide its almost a given.

In another sense though i would like nothing more than to go on guided hunt in canada, alaska, sasq one of them for a monster muley, sheep, moose, caribou. A stag i think is my ultimate dream guided hunt.

It all depends on where your hunting i think. In state i believe DIY if possible. Out of state trophy unit probably never gonna draw again no harm in hiring a guide.

 

[JohnColter]

I don't hate guides and have several friends who guide mule deer and elk hunters here in MT. I think most do it for the love of the hunt because I know they could make better money doing something else. I think alot of the bad feeleings come from the outfitter industry in general. Speaking from persoanl experience I have had access to land I hunted for many years shut down because the right outfitter with the right wad of cash came along. When this happens to a guy enough times they tend to get a little bitter about the outfitting industry, and guides are certainly a part of that. In addition I personally have witnessed guides trying to intimidate people into staying off public land adjacent to the private land leased by the outfitter. Some have even gone so far as to illegally put no trespassing signs on legally accessible state land. In my home state of MT there is currently an initiative on the ballot to take away guaranteed outfitter licenses and put them back into the general nonresident pool, I'm betting it passes.

 

[msy]

In my experience the hatred comes from guides ruining other peoples hunts. I have heard a lot of stories here in Utah about guides who will park their trucks so they block public roads in the mountains. A friend of mine even had a someone scare a deer away he was stalking and then saw that same person guiding another hunter later in the week.

I am in favor of guides and think that they are a great resource for hunts, especially for areas far from where you live. But when they are dirty hunters like that and ruin your limited entry hunt, you will learn to hate them real quick.

 

[NV4Life]

Thanks for your honest answers. Here?s another question out of all the people that don't like guides/outfitters how many have actually used one?

MSY- I hear ?stories? like that every year as well but I don't believe a word of it unless it happens to me. You understand that guides can get in trouble for doing such things? Most guides I know are good guys that just like to hunt; do you think they would jeopardize their business by being a bonehead? All your ?Friends? would have had to do was call the division of wildlife and file a complaint against the guide in question.

 

[wstrntines]

Ive always wanted to go on a LE utah guided elk hunt and im not sure i will just because of the costs im not against em but i just hate how you pay all that money and then alot of outfitters want more if you kill a 400 inch bull.Plus you buy your tag tip the guide which i think is only right to tip him. But i do realize an outfitter has to charge alot because that is their source of income. Oh and 15 spotters i dont see anything wrong with that whenever someone in our crew draws a tag everyone goes down to spot or call or run a camera. I look at it like this the more friends and family i can have helpin me the better chance i have at harvesting a trophy of a lifetime.

 

[4000fps]

On the flipside, I hated guiding. Nothing like dragging a couple of idiots around the woods and getting them a deer or elk that they would never have seen on their own in 100 years. I felt like an assasin.

 

[larrbo]

I have been on several guided hunts over the years. The main reason I will use a guide is to get into areas that you need horses and a camp. I prefer to hunt on my own because I have more control over where to hunt each day any how to hunt an area. One thing I notice with hunting with a guide is when you are on an animal you need to tell him to back off. I have had them get in the way and cost me animals before.

 

[Triple_BB]

No hatred here for guides. However, I have no use for outfitters or organizations who attempt to buy or change laws for their own persoanl gain. For you guys that are aiming for a guided hunt, stick with your dreams. I remember 20 plus years ago sitting at a campfire with a buddy in the Shirley Mtns. We had hunted our azzes off for three days and no luck. uck. I told my friend that my dream one day was to be able to go on a guided elk hunt. I repeated that story on other hunts to friends over the years. It took awhile, but I finally got to do it. I've since been on a number of hunts and I've enjoyed everyone of them. If I could afford more, I'd do several a year. I already have 30 years of DIY stories about camping out in snow storms, getting stuck in my 4x4, packing out elk quarters for miles, getting lost, and tracking lost horses for miles in the Thorofare. Its nice to let an outfitter worry about some of that stuff as you start getting older. I bet a lot of our more mature hunters know what I'm talking about...

 

[doublehaul]

I don't hate guides as long as they're ethical. Some people don't have the time to scout, the equipment etc. and a guide is the only way. I on the other hand am all DIY always. The whole reason I hunt and fish is for the experience and it would detract from it to use a guide. Pulling the trigger is just a tiny part in a huge process. An example and just my opinion: hiring a guide and shooting a ### super bull is nothing compared to a DIY public land any ### bull, buck, whatever. That's just me and to each his own.

 

[littlejoe]

I went to BC in 2003 on my first guided hunt. Out of that has come a life long friendship. I have been back with them again in 2005 and have no idea if I will go back again as there are many other trips on the bucket list but we e-mail, talk, etc and are good friends. I talk to him a few times a year. He needed anything I would be there in a second. I have also met some amazing people on guided hunts from all over the country and made some great contacts for work, life, kids, etc.

 

[mustache]

Time is Money and Simple math. (Poor Sob = more time to scout = DIY) (Rich Bastard = less time to scout = guide needed)

 

[dleonard4]

I dont hate guides. If somebody would pay to do what i love i certainly would take them up on the offer hell i would probably even take work off and do it for free like i have many times before. but on the other hand i dont care for the guy who spends as much money for an elk as a nice house would cost than gets his name in the book and basks in his own glory like he is some great white hunter.

 

[blackmtoutfitters]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-10 AT 08:54PM (MST)[p]Nick as a guide myself its nice to hear someone posted some support here finally. To those of you that dont agree with the whole guide thing or disagree with a person who uses one let me share with you all a special hunt I just shared with a client.My client arrived last week for a six day mule deer hunt in a tough unit.The plan was to hunt and harvest a pre scouted deer wich I had a ton of time into.This brute of a buck was found in unit 101 of my clients NV area and was pushing 190". Any of you that have hunted this unit before know this is a rare find.Opening morning of the hunt we leave town at 3am and pack the 4 miles into the basin the buck called home. As the sun clears the ridge line I get the buck in the leica and show him to my client who is totally beside himself.We watch the deer clear the cedars and make his way up into the basin.As soon as he gets to the open ground he picks up the pace to a trott an never slows down as he makes his way over the top.Confused by his actions this morning we throw on the packs and start the ascent up the steep mountain.Upon reaching the top an hour later we cut his tracks and start following him to his bed.Three hours later the buck still hasn't bedded and we get to some super thick country. We opt to back out until evening in fear of bummping him. For the next six days strait we search for the big buck without ever spotting hime again.We hiked just short of 40 miles on the hunt and my client never complained once. Many other good bucks were seen over the course of the hunt but he never faltered and passed them all keeping his head in the game and sticking with it.My point is just because he paid for the hunt he still hunted harder then most of the diy guys i know and put in some over the top effort to get it done. My hat is off to him and I hope we can share many more hunts together. He was truely one of the best guys of ever hunted with paying or not.

 

[west]

there are great guys that guide. I've know several guys that guide. They love what they do. I think the bad apples can break it for the good ones sometimes. I too have had outfitters try to run me off national forest. Funny when they said they would call the sherrif and i said...yes lets...one of us will be fined but its not going to be me..they changed their tune. This of course is an example of a bad outfitter.

I think the thing i dislike the most about the industry is the money exchange. Not with the clients, but with the landowners. I dont' think that anybody could really argue that it is much harder to find ranchers that will let you hunt their land. Not because they don't like guys hunting..but because an outfitter made them a deal they can't refuse. I understand that the outfitter is just doing what they do for their business, but it doesn't mean i have to like it. JMO


"blaming guns for violence is like blaming spoons for Rosie O'donnell being fat."

 

[nmwapiti]

I'll throw in my .02, FWIW. I am a fly fishing guide in the summer and 100% of my clients are very wealthy. I have learned so much from my clients over the years and I will share this with you all and maybe you will have a different perspective. I would be willing to say that most of the MM'ers on here are middle class average joes who grew up fishing, hunting and enjoying the outdoors. It is just part of who you are and what you know. That's who I am. Well there are a lot of people out there who grew up not knowing that the great outdoors even existed. Priorities were different, life was different for people in big, metropolitan cities. Education and a career was made a priority for every person I have ever guided. Now these folks are successful in their careers and have the money to do the things they have always wanted to do and never had the time. The great outdoors is a big draw for these folks, but it also scares the hell out of them because they have no skills what so ever. The people I have had the pleasure to guide over the years are so eager to learn, ask so many questions and it opened my eyes as to how lucky I was to grow up with the mountains in my back yard. The picture painted in some posts about some outfits offering 5 star lodging, gourmet meals, etc is pure jealousy, IMO. Would I ever pay that kind of money for that kind of experience? No, because my view of that "experience" is much different. These folks will never buy 4 wheelers, trailers, 5th wheels, Dura max diesel trucks, $400 rangefinders, $1,000 binoculars, etc. For most of us, it is a way of life, we invest in the equipment. For these folks, they pay for an experience, and that's what the guide provides.

 

[bigmoose]

I don't hate guides but I also don't see the need for one. I've always been DIY and done all my own homework. I've hunted out of state for over forty years and never hired a guide. Part of hunting is figuring out new areas on your own. I can not scout any out of state areas until I'm on my hunt. I will go a week early sometimes now that many seasons are only a week long but my vacation time is limited to mostly two weeks.

I know guys that hunt with guides and have many trophy heads hanging on their walls. I'm sure their animals mean something to them but I'm also sure my mounts mean something different to me. This is just the way I hunt and I can not think of a better way to do it.

I hunted Califonia this year with my godson and his dad. They had spotted two big bucks hanging together during archery season and we were able to get one of them with a rifle (Califonia...Nice D5 Buck). This was a buck they had spotted themsevles without a guide and there were many other hunters in the area. It is different when a guide has been watching a buck all summer and trys to get his hunter on him. That hunter may be successful in taking the buck but it's not quite the same as when you have done all the pre-season work yourself (in my mind).

I know it is hard to get drawn for a good area and when you do time is limited and the guides know the area and the animals and where they will be but I'll figure it out (or not) on my own and have a great hunt. Maybe the next time I draw I'll have a better idea.

Part of doing the homework is to get on the net and ask questions and review old posts. Recently a newbie asked and got blasted right away because he had asked for information on another site too. Someone may want to help. What's the harm in that ? I know, just checking to see how thick his skin is.

I also hate to see tags that are alloted just to outfitters. Yes, I know they have to make a living. Why can't these tags go into the general draw and the outfitters can solicit the lucky guys who drew ? I know, with a guaranty of tags, hunters will have to hunt with them. I'm not trying to stir the chit only expressing my two cents.

Moose

 

[Outdoors]

>Time is Money and Simple math.
> (Poor Sob = more
>time to scout = DIY)
>(Rich Bastard = less time
>to scout = guide needed)
>

Usually, the only way I can go on more than 1 hunt a fall is to arrange for private access or get a guide. I live too far to scout most hunts I draw tags for without taking a week or more off of work. I only can take so much time away from work each year and the wife for some reason feels some of that time needs to be spent with family and kids.

This year I have 3 hunts (AZ, OR, NM) and am doing each without scouting so each are DIY w/o guide or private land access but that is not the norm most years.