Haditha a set up??

202typical

Long Time Member
Messages
3,123
Murtha is going to go down over this in my opinion.

Marine report: Haditha ?massacre? was engineered by Al Qaeda? Updated: What/when did Murtha know about this?
posted at 12:55 am on October 8, 2007 by Allahpundit

Here?s the gist:

The report ? apparently overlooked by a Washington press corps awash in leaked Bargewell documents and secret Naval Criminal Investigative Service reports ? shows that Marine Corps intelligence operatives were advised of the scheme to demonize the Marines by an informant named Muhannad Hassan Hamadi. The informant was snared by 3/1 Marines on December 11 2005 and decided to cooperate.

The attack was carried out by multiple cells of local Wahabi extremists and well-paid local gunmen from Al Asa?ib al-Iraq [the Clans of the People of Iraq] that were led by Al Qaeda foreign fighters, the summary claims. Their case was bolstered by Marine signal intercepts revealing that the al Qaeda fighters planned to videotape the attacks and exploit the resulting carnage for propaganda purposes?

During the November Haditha battle, the insurgents secreted themselves among local civilians to guarantee pursuing Marines would catch innocent civilians in the ensuing crossfire. On January 6, 2006 six insurgents who tried to do the same thing at another location in Haditha were turned in to Coalition authorities before they could mount a similar assault, the report says?

The captured insurgents revealed the attack was planned in Albu Hyatt, a nearby town where numerous Marines have been killed and wounded since the beginning of the war. The two main elements of the attack were the IED-initiated ambush on Route Chestnut and two IED ambushes planned along the so-called River Road that parallels the Euphrates River about 1.5 kilometers north of the Chestnut location.

The prisoners claimed the multi-pronged assault on the Marines was intended to garner local support by discrediting the Marines among the civilian population. If the coordinated attack had gone off as planned all three IED ambushes would have been sprung on the patrolling Marines almost simultaneously, the prisoners said. The insurgents plan depended on the Marines aggressively responding to the assaults to create as much carnage as possible.

It was the IED on Route Chestnut that killed Lance Cpl. Terrazas and precipitated the subsequent house raids that resulted in 24 people being killed. Note that the other two IEDs were a ways away from the one on Chestnut, which seems like an odd way to place them if you're trying to ambush a squad of patrolling Marines ?almost simultaneously.? By scattering them, you have no assurance that the Marines will pass by all three bombs, let alone that they'll do so around the same time. It makes more sense to bury all of them along the same stretch of road in a populated area which the Marines are known to patrol and then hit the whole convoy as it rolls by.

Beyond that, the plan?s too clever by half. U.S. troops had been dodging IEDs and facing enemy fire from the cover of houses for two years by the time of the Haditha incident with nary a massacre to their credit. Why would Al Qaeda expect they could bait them into one now? Moreover, if the jihadis? intent was to ?secret themselves among local civilians? to maximize collateral damage, why didn't Wuterich?s men find a single enemy combatant during their fateful house-clearing operations on Chestnut? The logical thing would have been to station one or two jihadis in houses on either side of the road and then have them open fire on the convoy after the IED went off, to make the Marines think there were hostiles on all sides and that they should proceed accordingly. As it is, assuming this whole ?massacre bait? theory is correct, the jihadis seem to have lucked into it. Here?s what Frank Wuterich told 60 Minutes:

Two other Marines were wounded and the medic was treating them. Wuterich was down to eight men and they came under rifle fire. He says he heard ?Shots, sporadic shots, I think I heard two or three, two or three shots from the south and that was it.?

He says he couldn't see where the fire was coming from, but a house to the south caught his eye.

?This building was right in the line of sight of this explosion here,? Wuterich says.

?You did not see fire coming from the house, correct?? asks Pelley.

?I did not see muzzle flashes coming from the house, correct,? Wuterich replies.

If he didn't hear rounds coming from the house, how did he identify the house as a threat?

?Because that was the only logical place that the fire could come through seeing the environment there.?

Except that no jihadis were found in the house. So either Wuterich mistook the direction from which the shots were fired or the distance at which they were fired and then proceeded to act on his mistake in precisely the manner Al Qaeda allegedly hoped he would. Which, needless to say, seems a fantastically fortunate way for the ?massacre bait? plan to come off. Likewise, Wuterich told 60 Minutes that he thought the five military-age Iraqi men in the white car whom he shot in the back after the IED went off might have been involved somehow. They were awfully close to the scene of the attack and they responded to the Marines? orders by running instead of complying, as Iraqis usually do. Assuming he's right, though, then why, per the ?massacre bait? theory, were they congregated in a car without weapons instead of scattered among the local civilians and armed? And if they were in fact civilians, then, once again, this is a fantastically lucky stroke for Al Qaeda, no? Five military-age men choose to defy directions being barked at them by angry, frightened Marines and end up as collateral damage ? precisely according to Al Qaeda?s plan? Remarkable.

And if this was all a propaganda ploy, where's the jihadi video of it?

And if the evidence for all this is as compelling as the report claims, why wasn?t it made available as soon as Time magazine?s big Haditha expose was published? According to the report, the key informant who spilled the beans was arrested on December 11, 2005. Time?s report didn't drop until March 2006. The Marines had this information at their fingertips the whole time.

The idea of ?massacre bait? isn't absurd at all, of course. The Palestinians fire from crowds of civilians all the time on Israeli troops for precisely that reason. But there are seemingly much easier ways of pulling something like this off. Imagine the opportunities at one of the gigantic processions during the Shiite holidays in Iraq. A few well positioned suicide bombers, a few gunmen stationed in buildings in surrounding areas, and you can create the same effect with much higher potential for collateral damage: the bombers detonate, the gunmen open fire, the troops down below panic and open fire, and you're left with a lot of dead Iraqis. Exit question: What did I miss?

Update (Bryan): To me, one of the more interesting and important questions about this report is whether Murtha knew about it or not when he was prominently accusing the Haditha Marines of murder ?in cold blood.? This document is one among many that are related in some way to the case, but it cuts against Murtha?s entire body of statements on Haditha. It suggests, and with some credibility, that Haditha was an enemy op that went well if not according to plan. If Murtha knew of this report, but accused the Marines of murder ?in cold blood? anyway, then he had to have been aware of the possibility that he was assisting an enemy op against our troops. If he didn't know of this report, then his informants inside the Corps were not telling him the whole story. He still should not have been out front accusing the Marines of murder, but he may have been misled by his source or sources. Which raises the question, who were his sources and why would they plant an incomplete accounting of the case with Rep. Murtha?

As to the question of jihadi video, well, who shot the video that Time magazine obtained in May 2006?

Update (bp): That last question is answered. First, the video?s producer:

Al-Haditha is 43 years old. He ?created? Hammurabi 16 months ago. (Before that he worked directly under the head of Haditha?s hospital, Dr. Walid al-Obeidi, who pronounced that all the victims had been shot at close range.)

In fact, al-Haditha is one of Hammurabi?s only two members. He serves as its ?Secretary General? while the only other member, Abdul-Rahman al-Mashhadani, performs as its ?Chairman.?

al-Mashhadani has some interesting connections.

Now, let's take a little closer look at one of the integral reporters who broke the Haditha story, courtesy of Sweetness and Light. It's Ali Omar Abrahem al-Mashhadani, a Sunni who had been detained for five months because of images found on his camera and because of his ?ties to the insurgents?. He had only been released a couple of weeks before he ?stumbled upon? his big ?scoop? on Haditha. (In fact, he had recently been arrested again, and was only released on May 31st.) Conveniently, Ali al-Mashhadani is the reporter who supplied video footage of the corpses that were supposedly killed by the Marines. His video footage is solely responsible for prompting the investigation by the military.

The two al-Mashhadanis are brothers, and one of them was deeply involved in the insurgency. What are the odds that the other, the one who wrote the initial Haditha report for Reuters, wasn?t? Pretty low, I'd say.

So if you go back and look at the totality of blog reports on Haditha, reports like Dan Riehl?s cross-referencing and comparisons of conflicting witness testimony, and then look at the Marine document that's the basis of this post, Haditha does start to look like an enemy ambush with after-action disinfo created to turn it into a ?massacre.?



?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
Murtha does this kind of stuff, yet Dingy Harry and Pelosi worry about something not said by Rush, and teh media goes right along with it. Now tell me how the 'main stream media' isn't biased, and that having Hillary or ANY Democrat become president is a good idea!

PRO
 
Good greif, what a bunch of crap. the CO told his story of what happened on 60 Minutes did you see it? the only question is why they did it and could it be excused under the conditions at the time, maybe it could but that's where it ends.

You didn't just drink the Kool Aid, you went back for seconds.
 
Yea dude no need to comment everyone on this board knows story. Everything the troops do is bad and everything the islamofacist do is good. yada yada yada. Its old!!!!!!
These men some of which have allready been cleared and the rest will be soon were set up. Why is that so hard for you to believe or are you a Murtha coolaid drinker that thinks our troops are nothing more than cold blooded killers?



?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
Yes it is very possible they are cold blooded killers, a little bird tell you otherwise? it's happened before and it will happen again, why is that so impossible to beleive? we've already had trials in this very war where pre meditated murder was the verdict. in this case there was no plan for it to go down as it did, there's a good chance there were bad decisions made but no intention for the outcome, that's my take . saying a few guys screwed up is by no means saying ALL the troops are murderers as you try to twist it. just because you place no value on Muslims doesn't mean we can sweep everything under the rug and call it a day, are you watching the Blackwater scandal? for some reason Iraqis place value on their own lives, go figure.

If all the guys are found innocent then this will be behind us, if they aren't then forward we go. I'm not passing judgment one way or another, and you can't either.
 
dude wrote: "If all the guys are found innocent then this will be behind us, if they aren't then forward we go. I'm not passing judgment one way or another, and you can't either."

Are you kidding me? Pay attention, most have already been cleared, the others WILL be shortly, yet WTF is Murtha saying he was wrong? WTF is Reid and Pelosi doing an investagation on Murtha's sorry ass for running down REAL soldiers who did NOTHING WRONG? "All behind us" my a$$. All this supposed outrage over what Rush said or didn't say, and a free pass for idiots like Murtha. Tell me again how much YOU support the troops. WTF????

PRO
 
A Marine Corps official has recommended that murder charges be dismissed against a Camp Pendleton squad leader accused in the deaths of 17 civilians killed in the Iraqi city of Haditha two years ago.

The official, Lt. Col. Paul Ware, said in a recommendation obtained by the North County Times that rather than face murder charges, squad leader Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich should be tried for the lesser offense of negligent homicide in the deaths of five children and two women.

Ware recommended 10 other murder charges against Wuterich be dismissed.

?I believe after reviewing all the evidence that no trier of fact can conclude Staff Sgt. Wuterich formed the criminal intent to kill."

The final call belongs to Gen. James Mattis, who can either accept Ware?s recommendation of dismissal or press on. He did take his advice in the case of the other two Marines, which bodes well for Wuterich.

Murtha has passed judgement on them and that is wrong and he should pay. Hopefully he will with the lawsuit against him. How can you defend Murtha is beyond comprehention.

Do you even knbow what cold blooded murder means? Murtha needs a bullett!



?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
If Murtha screwed up he'll pay the political price, there are no laws to prevent him from saying what he wants to.

By "support the troops" you mean "send the troops" right? when was the last time any of you captian Americas did anything about the hose jobs troops are getting when they return? did you see where that group in MN returned from thier extended tours to find they lacked 1 day of service to qualify for some war bill benifits including education? do you care that there are an estimated 200,000 homeless vets in the USA? serious lack of quality health care? until you take up some of these causes you can stay off my butt about " supporting the troops".
 
What have their been 2000-3000 troops killed since Bush declared " Mission Accomplished" ? maybe some families should sue him for such a stupid statment? or fallen soldiers families should sue for the fact this war was based on what Bush and his administration told us and congress that turned out to be pure crap? good luck sueing a politician for saying something wrong or stupid.

Politicians say lots of things , when they're wrong they get pounded. Murtha will suffer the same fate as most of this administration if he's wrong. he's pretty much washed up anyway, if he's the biggest baddest dem with the biggest baddest scandal you've got then the dems are much cleaner than I thought they were.
 
Ya your right, what Craig did in a bathroom stall was much worse than Murtha calling Marines "cold blooded murders". Your moral relativism is disturbing. You will go out of your way to comdemn a Republican, but give a POS like Murtha a free pass. Real nice!

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-07 AT 06:22PM (MST)[p]What part about paying the political price don't you get? are we going to tar and feather anyone who says anything that might be wrong? if we are Bush and crew are going to look like a flock of geese. when it comes time for re election if Murtha runs what do you think the chances are this will come up and be used against him? you haven't gotten rid of your bathroom tap dancing hero yet so how can anyone force Murtha out of office? you make it sound as if a snap of the fingers solves everything. in Murtha's case no laws were broken so the voters of Pennsylvania will decide his fate, both republicans and dems.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-07
>AT 06:22?PM (MST)

>
>What part about paying the political
>price don't you get? are
>we going to tar and
>feather anyone who says anything
>that might be wrong? if
>we are Bush and crew
>are going to look like
>a flock of geese. when
>it comes time for re
>election if Murtha runs what
>do you think the chances
>are this will come up
>and be used against him?
>you haven't gotten rid of
>your bathroom tap dancing hero
>yet so how can anyone
>force Murtha out of office?
>you make it sound as
>if a snap of the
>fingers solves everything. in Murtha's
>case no laws were broken
>so the voters of Pennsylvania
>will decide his fate, both
>republicans and dems.

My point is, YOU seem more worried about a foot-tapper than a Congressman accusing Marines of "cold blooded murder", what does that say about YOU? The main difference is MANY Republicans are demanding Craig to resign, how many Democrats are asking, let alone demanding, Murtha resign? Which one hurts America more? Get real, your biased views are getting more clear everyday, you are about as 'moderate' as Keith Olberman.

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-07 AT 11:38PM (MST)[p] I really don't care much about either one of them. I hope Craig hangs on through the elections just to give all the "Moral warriors" like himself heart burn.

I'm not going to write for either one to resign, the voters will decide next fall. if you can't wait that long then whine and sue, it's a free country..
 
Dude refuses to respond to your acusations Pro..........speaks volumes does'nt it.
Defaming the very men that hand Murtha the right to defame them is OK with Dude. Unbelievable but then again, when one is Godless.................where does moralty come from? Insanity.


?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
Do you even care about the non combatant women and kids blown away in their houses? never did I say these guys did anything that couldn't be explained or excused but an investigation and trial is very much in order. there is no question what these guys did was wrong, the question is can it be understood how and why it happened and excused, end of story, and the story isn't even over. this isn't a support the troops thing, it's a justice and accountability thing. Americans should demand it, and accept the verdict.

You had them innocent before the hearings began, maybe because the people killed were just Muslims? if being " godless" makes me value all peoples life, even non Christians then I'm fine with that. I hear street preachers like you all the time, one's an ex drinking buddy of mine, I ignore him as well.
 
"this isn't a support the troops thing, it's a justice and accountability thing. Americans should demand it, and accept the verdict."

You are ducking the issue AGAIN. the issue is Murtha had them guilty of "cold blooded murder" BEFORE a trial. I thought people were innocent until PROVEN guilty, I guess when it comes to those who stand in the way of Murtha and his own power grabbing agenda, FACTS and the truth be damned. He was way wrong to condemn them BEFORE a trial, he is way wrong to not publicly apologize for his remarks, and YOU are way wrong to try and shrug it off.

Funny, the founding fathers of this, the greatest country on GOD's green earth, where all religious and believed in a 'Higher Being'. I guess they were bafoons as well, right? Being religious doesn't make one perfect, or even claim to be perfect, it simply means one is doing what they can to better themselves and others around them. The trouble with America isn't that we are too religous, it is because we are NOT religous enough.

PRO
 
Good one Pro you beat me to it.

Dude you said "there is no question what these guys did was wrong" if this is true then why are the charges being droped? Why are the Marines sueing Murtha, why when put in his face Murtha refuses to speak or at a minimum appologise.

Next, Dude I never had these men innocent from the get go. I just did not agree with a member of Congress at a time of war calling our Marines "cold blooded murderers." This is wrong and borders on treason. What don't you get.

On to your Strawman about the innocent Muslims. You know as well as I do the the US Military goes above and beyond in their attempt to limit civilian casualties. If you do not believe this you are not an American at all!!!!!!!!!!!


?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
I think for the amount of violence and the type of war it is, the very low number of cases like this shows our military has done an outstanding job.

This case is no different than when the police kill a bunch of innocent people, it has to be investigated and conditions at the time decide if the action was excusable or justified. for the 1000th time, this looks like the case here


What am I supposed to do about Murtha? I've said before he made a bad choice with the words he used. I'll try extreme redundancy again and see if it soaks in, his words will probably kill his chances at re election , that's how politicians get punished. I don't live in PA and I don't have a great amount of political pull, so I don't think I'm going to help you out anymore than what I just said.
 
Dude, are you running low on syrup from all the waffling you got going on? Good hell, how hard is it to CONDEMN what Murtha said? You have yet to do so, you make a lamea$$ comment like, "I've said before he made a bad choice with the words he used." He didn't merely make a "bad choice of words, he called some Marines "cold blooded killers" as an eleceted representive, what he did is worse than what Hanoi Jane did during Vietnam. DOn't tell me it was a "bad choice of words", get the balls to CONDEMN the calling of INNOCENT marines "cold blooded killers"!

You act all enraged when a Republican says/does something wrong, yet when Pelosi's toady says/does worse things, you want to say how you don't live in PA and therefore you opt to say it was a poot choice of words. Weak, very weak!

PRO
 
When have I been enraged at anything a republican said? I may not agree with them but never once have I called for anyone to step down. Bush got us into a war for no reason killing 3815 Americans so far and while I don't like him when have I ever said he should step down? voters decide the fate of poiticians unless a law has been broken, that goes for both parties. we've beat this to death, whine on I'm done with it.
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom