Guiding and Public Land???

[ADDICT]

Just a theoretical question:
?Why don't they end all guiding/compensated hunt assistance (ie finder?s fees, scouting, trophy harvest fees etc.) on PUBLIC land??
The more I hear of and see the posts from the big name outfitters, the more I hear of all of the drama and contention the issue causes between their army of skilled scouts and guides vs. the average Joe hunter. I realize it would have economic impacts on the industry but can't/shouldn't guiding and all of its services be offered solely on private land? I know this will cause a forest fire of comments but it's gotten out-of-control if you ask me. I literally have no personal experience with any guides in particular but have heard story after story about problems caused by the hyper-marketization of trophy hunting on public land. It's gotten to a point where the opportunity to pursue a ?public? resource is becoming privatized solely by strength in numbers and driven by financial return. The mighty dollar has created competition to produce and guides have gone to epic lengths to ensure their clients harvest the best. Since it's impossible to eliminate or even regulate ?party hunting? or complex systems of teams to essentially hunt one animal, I don't feel it's going to get any better. Basically, there may be ten tags available for a specific hunt but because three or four guides may be in the unit, there could be as many as 50+ people pursuing the game. Is that what ?hunting? is all about? Doesn?t that dilute the hunting opportunity/experience for the other hunters who have a tag and are doing it the old-fashioned way, on their own?
If you have the money and resources to employ the services of a skilled guide?more power to you. I also recognize the tremendous amount of support that auction tags bring to state wildlife services. I don't discount their place in the overall scheme of things. I feel that regulation of public resource should have the interest of the majority first.
Feedback is appreciated and let's not make this personal?I just wanted to hear what you all thought?

 

[justr_86]

Good luck with this one! Outfitters contribute too much to hunting. To tell them they can't take hunters hunting is wrong.

 

[slamdunk]

I feel like i'm watching the movie "Ground Hog Day".







http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/slamdunk_04/E1x1BWINV1-2.jpg[/IMG]

 

[lgriffiti]

Since ADDICT has opened this "can of worms", I might as well pipe up and put in my 2-cents...

I have no problem with guides on public land. In fact, some states require guides for certain types of hunts for non-residents so there is a legal consideration here. Also, not everyone has the ability to maintain the gear required for a wilderness experience (shelter, transportation, etc...)and a guide provides a valuable survice for many people who would be excluded if their services were prohibited. However, I also believe that hunting is the purest sport that I know of...pitting one's own resources against the quarry - a test of survival.

I've been a DIY type of hunter all my life...always will be. I love the satisfaction, sense of accomplishment of providing for my family in the most basic of ways. Unfortunately, I too feel the pinch of the big business operations and I certainly don't have the resources to compete financially for such a limited resource. My hunting goal is to take a 200+ buck - DIY, something that I recognize may never happen (I'm not getting any younger). But if it happens, it will be by my effort and not because I can afford to hire a bunch of "guides" to do the work.

I agree with ADDICT on one aspect: I think the "group effort" employed by some professionals is unethical and equates to nothing more than party hunting. I don't see how it can be considered "fair chase." I would love to see organizations like B&C or SCI enforce a more strick pursuit policy. However, I see no way to regulate such a practice other than by we, as hunters, simply not supporting (admiring) those who do.


Let's talk about politics or religion...

-lgriffiti

 

[isayNUNYA]

You said' " I have no personal experience with any guides in particular, but have heard story after story".
Pretty much sums it up right there.

 

[AndymanSavage]

> You said' " I have
>no personal experience with any
>guides in particular, but have
>heard story after story".
> Pretty much sums it up
>right there.

Yup.....

-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/

 

[justr_86]

>I feel like i'm watching the
>movie "Ground Hog Day".
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/slamdunk_04/E1x1BWINV1-2.jpg[/IMG]

LMAO!!!!

 

[hornhunter247]

Here we go! Let's just get this straight right off the get go, there are far less true diy guys than guided guys period! Most guiding operations employ 1 on 1 or 1 guide to 2 hunters. The diy guys bring an arsenal of friends and family to help them out. So if what I'm understanding is you want just the tag holders to be out in the woods all by themselves? But I'm sure in your mind "its different"! Lol good luck with this one!



I just call em as I see em!

 

[lgriffiti]

hornhunter247 - I don't know how you came up with that twist on what I stated but just to be completely clear...

I have NO problem with guides or outfitters that offer the 1/1 type of hunts that you are talking about. I fully respect such people. I don't have problems with friends and families participating - coming along to help. I do have a problem with what I call the "commercialization of hunting." I'm specifically refering to people who pay a group to do all of the work, then show up and seal the deal. I put that type of activity right there with high-fence hunts. I view it as a mockery of hunting and plays right into the hands of the anti-group. If you don't see the difference, then I have nothing more to say.

-Lgriffiti

 

[hornhunter247]

So were basically talking about the 4-5 guides like mossback that guide gov tag holders? Even mossback does a more 1 on 1 with his every day clients. Now gov tag holders get a whole year to hunt and pay high 5 figure price tags for all those eyes out there. Iys a business and to each their own I guess. Its not as common as you guys are making it out to be! I respect an outfitter who goes the extra mile to locate the size animal that the client sets his goals at. That's what the hunter deserves when he books with such an outfit. So no I guess I don't see your gripe.


I just call em as I see em!

 

[fishfearme]

So addict, what you're telling me is that even though I've waited 20 years to draw a great tag (17 points plus several years before the point system was put in place) and watched my youth wasted away while waiting, and because I have a good but demanding job and have a great deal of difficulty spending the whole summer scouting, I am a threat to the American way of life because I've hired a 1 on 1 guide to help me?

I guess I'll tell the guide to forget and I'll stumble around the mountian clueless about where to find the game, but proud of the fact that I'm a do it yourselfer?

And one more thing, I'll be bringing my own possie to help in scouting and to share my life long quest with me. I guess they should just stay home too so I can be a true DYI'er.

Thanks for seeing all sides of the issue and being so tolerant of those in different situations than yourself.

 

[rackman]

+1 Hornhunter. I saw a DIY guy that had 15 friends with him trying to locate bulls. Thats way more than I have seen a guide have. Mossback was in the same area and only had a couple of guys. Addict I dont think you are going to get the results you wanted from your post.

 

[ADDICT]

isaynunya and AndyManSavage--

I prefaced the whole, "I have no personal experience with any guides in particular" but I have videos where the crew couldn't fit in the frame from 25 ft back. Just an observation I've noticed. My point was that I haven't been burned first-hand but you can't tell me the innumerable posts, stories, drama etc don't have any truth to them either.

Any water tank in Northern AZ with 12 game cams illustrates my point.

BTW I'm actually not convinced eliminating guiding on public land is the solution. I'm making an observation and was curious about other's perspective.

 

[ADDICT]

Rackman--

What results do I want? I'm relatively undecided on the whole thing. I made my points based on what I've read an heard and obviously there is a few guys on MM who see it differently..

Newsflash: They're not banning guiding on public land any time soon.

 

[ADDICT]

fishfearme--

Im not telling you anything. Did I ever reference one on one guide-client ratios? Or even one to two? Keep your dreams and aspirations buddy-- I'm not going to tear them from you. Read my post again before you take everything so literally. Just brought up a point.

I actually agreed with lgriffiti about party hunting and classifications in record books. Something to think about.

 

[ADDICT]

I love the "there are far less DIY guys than guided guys" comment. We must hunt in different states man. I know maybe 5 guys that have ever employed a guide. Good luck backing that statistic.

 

[huntindad4]

fishfearme

I have been on numerous out of state hunts to new areas and have never felt handicapped by not scouting and do not feel like I am stumbling around the mountain. There is a great sense of accomplishment in not relying on someone else to show you a deer to shoot.

It is your tag do as you wish but for me it is selling one's self short to hire all the help for the reasons you stated.

The reasoning that one might not be able to afford all the equipment is better if your only going on one or two western hunts a year but if you go often then that doesn't hold much water either because the cost of a guided hunt is high enough to buy some pretty good stuff.

I know my opinion will be lasted for this but I always look at a big mulie or blacktail killed on private land or guided hunt as somewhat less of an accomplishment and it would be hypocritical if I felt that way and all the while hunted that way myself.

Sorry if this is offensive but it is just how I feel.

I don't feel it should be illegal to hire a guide or hunt private unless high fence I just don't feel its an equal accomplishment.

Get your popcorn.

Bill

 

[Sniper1]

TO pay 4500 bucks or whatever it costs now days to hire a guide is unreal. No wonder people cant get away from work to scout. They are tied to their job to try to afford the fee for the guide. Honestly though in my opinion if you want to hire a guide go for it but to me it makes the hunt that much more rewarding when you get a trophy animal on the ground on your own terms by yourself.

On another note if your an out of state hunter then i see where hiring a guide would almost be a must for the reason of traveling so far to scout.

Also alot of guys say most outfitters hire a 1 guide for 1 hunter deal. Well that is true but i guarantee the preseason scouting the mountians are covered with more than one pair of eyes. So really to sum it up i guess you do it your self and get family or friends to help or you pay an outrageous amount of money and work overtime to pay someone else to do it.

Still better than a high fenced unit or private ranch.

Can somebody pass the salt and butter.

 

[Sniper1]

Fishfearme.......
What tag and what guide did you hire if you dont mind me asking?

 

[hornhunter247]

Addict my point is last year on my kiabab hunt I had 2 other guys there helping me out with glassing and everything else. I never paid for their help, so was I truly a doing it myself? No. So how many hunters do you know that scout,hunt, and actually do it all by themselves? Some guys just need to "rent" friends!


I just call em as I see em!

 

[ADDICT]

hornhunter247--

I guess my point wasn't clear enough. If you choose to party hunt then that is 100% your choice. I don't get splitting up and radioing each other when the animal you want is located--to me that's just not true hunting. My point is directed at compensated guides (plura) doing the exact same things. Money is the motivator--a lot more "friends" are willign to help out I just don't think that is really hunting. Its like flipping through a catalogue and saying, "I want that one."

Again, to each his own. My whole post was theoretical--it'll never happen and I know that.

 

[hornhunter247]

Addict

Ok now were getting on a topic I'm fully on board with. My thoughts on radio's and other devices used to help someone in the field locate game should be banned. I don't like that much, it feels the same as flying during the hunt. Same with trail cams, I've used them their neat to have but imo are causing a lot of problems.
As far as a outfitter having multiple guides spotting game for his client, well as long as their trying to use hand signals I have no problems with them. But radio's and what nots are not giving the animals a real "fair chase"!


I just call em as I see em!

 

[lgriffiti]

I don't think that an opinion is necessarily a gripe... Outside of this post, I don't recall ever actually voicing my opinion on the subject publically. I have no intention of lobbying for a ban on such activities any more than I would ban high-fence hunting. I simply don't respect the practice and I feel that both negatively impact something that we all hold dear - the right to hunt.

It's an opinion and nothing more...

Personally, I'm still looking for the buck that I want to pursue this season. I had one last season that escaped me on several occasions. He should be a pig this year (assuming some lion didn't find him first). However, I haven't found him yet.

Good luck to all!

 

[bearman]

I think doing it with help of friends and family is the best way to have a great hunting experience. I also think going with a guide 1 on 1 is great also but not some of the commercial guiding.

 

[ADDICT]

Ahhhhhh. Emotionless, rational feedback. Thanks bearman.

 

[T264]

I think the pics in the magazines and on the internet with 17 people in the picture, 1 dead animal, all powder blue shirts, etc is what bothers me and quite a few others. Luckily, I hunt private land every chance I get instead of public to avoid all that B.S. The stories I have read and heard about guides shutting off roads, 12 game cameras and tree stands around each water hole are some of the reasons I choose to hunt private, unguided, on my 1 out of state hunt each year. I like to enjoy my hunt - not fight other hunters for a buck like kids do for eggs at an Easter egg hunt!
You guys that feel you are superior if you kill a buck on public ground, unguided (although you had 8 or 9 friends and family spotting for you)really crack me up. There should be a limit as to how many people could be in a tag holder's party, in my opinion, on public ground. It almost makes it like a high-fenced hunt and damn sure makes it less fair chase than your normal big ranch.

T264

 

[BuzzH]

I think there is room for good quality guides on public land. Not every hunter has the self-confidence, time, or equipment it takes to pursue big-game by themselves.

That said, there are plenty of guides and outfitters out there that are a real pain in the a$$. I've had two try to run me off public land, another seemed upset (initially) that I'd shot a nice buck on state land that bordered one of his leases, and had another that was upset I shot an antelope he and his client had been unsuccessful at getting.

The types mentioned above, for obvious reasons, shouldnt be allowed to even have an outfitters license. They do nothing but ruin hunts for everyone. I'd hate to be their clients and I hate dealing with crap like that.

On the other hand, I've hunted around outfitters that were very respectful of other hunters. They try hard to not interfere with DIY hunters, etc. They are courteous and professional...I have nothing but respect for them.

My preference is to hunt DIY and I prefer to hunt alone, but also enjoy hunting with a close friend or family member.

I just cant like the pictures with a dozen people in them...family, friends, or guides...its all the same IMO. The day I need a posse of "friends", "family", or "guides" to find a critter to kill is the day I hang it up.

 

[bearman]

Very well put. All though we need to take our family out! Wife, kids, niece's and nephew's all need to be shown the great things hunting and the outdoors has to offer. How the group of people act out there has a lot to do with it if it is OK or not. The outdoors is the best place to be with your friends and family.

 

[nickman]

Sometimes you snivelers really bust me up. The DIY attitude is insane.....it is impossible to "DO IT YOURSELF"

Guiding is just a job, people providing a service to other people.

You might want to check into the costs that a Guide has, in regards to special use permits, insurance bond covering the Government, income tax, and tax on fees charged. They pay big for the use of public lands.

Why go into a stress zone because someone has a guide business?

You can mow your own lawn or hire it done.....if you hire it done, are you less of a man.....you did not DIY? Is the guy that you hired a wrong for making a living, doing something others don't want to do?

I want to hire a guide but you don't think it should be allowed.......I simply do NOT see the differences here.

It is all about choices as to where you spend your money.

You can spin it any way you want, but the bottom line is that you look like a 6 year old being jealous of someone elses' toys!

If you are on the anti guide thing, simply because YOU don't like it, then you are a pompous azz, who should be FORCED to do your own dental work!

I was going to say that you should be forced to do your own colonoscopy, but with your head so far up your azz, it takes a professional to do it for you!

 

[hossblur]

Yeah, going to school for 10years to be a doctor is exactly the same as being a guide!!!

We are not the only sport or activity that has this issue. My dad got into old cars, in that world there are the guys that basically buy a car from the professionals and then trailer them to shows, and the guys who build them, and drive them to the shows. Yup, in that realm the guys that build them have little tolerance for the others.

There should be no bans on guides. HOWEVER, I would love to see the books have one book for DIY, perhaps even DIY public land, and then one for bought hunts.

I hunt in the west, and maybe we are a little behind the whitetail guys, but I watch the shows and am floored by what is considered whitetail hunting. Feeders, planted food plots(not agricultural crops but genetic whitetail food.) Guides with 4 star ratings for food and lodging. Perhaps I am snobbish, but if I am going hunting a catalog of the deer on the property including pics and scores seems less than sporting.

In short, YES, if you find it, kill it, clean it and drag it you are more of a hunter than being led around, told when and where to shoot, then having someone else do the work, SORRY if that offends you, but be honest. If you backpack into the wilderness, with a recurve bow and kill something, you are more of a man than me, and I will survive.

Whether you like guides or not, the whole spider bull episode last year I think left a bad taste in peoples mouths about how this subject gets out of control. I am a hunter, I frequent this site about hunting, same as many of you, but when hunters are cheering for an elk to survive it shows how most feel.

 

[lgriffiti]

nickman,

I see your point and your logic is solid. Granted, I may do my own scouting, pack myself in, cook my own meals, pack my game out, ....but, it was someone in Detroit who made my truck and someone from Chevron who refined my gas. I have bought guns, bows and ammo from Cabela's and I did stop by Walmart to buy food on my way out. No such thing as DIY? You are absolutely right.

I have been rebuked!

PS - That was a good one about the colonoscopy LOL!

 

[huntindad4]

+1 hossblur

I like the idea of a separate book.

Call it snobbish or whatever you want but it is pretty logical that as a rule a guy who gets it done unguided on public land without enlisting 20 man crews is a hunting a little harder than the hunter using a guide and crew and hunting a reservation or private land. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule.

I do what makes me happy and you should do the same as long as its legal. The most important thing is I can look in the mirror and be happy with what I see. If you can do the same great! There are guys out there that hunt MUCH HARDER and are better hunters than me and I have no problem admitting it.

As far as the jealousy theory... Not here, I am envious of those who have time, money and health to do numerous hunts in numerous states and backpack or horsepack into country I can't (three bulged discs, and yes I know this is a bit of a crutch for me) but the only thing I envy in the guided hunter is the money I could use to go on another hunt on my own.

Sorry if its too harsh for ya but this is my opinion and I know what its worth but I own it so.....

Bill

 

[ADDICT]

nickman-

Read the post before you go spouting off with the irrelevant analogies. I don't disagree guides need to earn their living nor do I feel it should be bannes or eliminated. I have never stated nor implied that I'm some kind of hard-core DIY guy and that I esteem myself above any other hunters. My point is still: Commercialization of guiding has gotten over the top in many instances. A guy that chooses to hunt on his own is competing against an army of employees. Its not why a lot of us hunt nor is it sensical to put in for 15 years only to compete on the mountain where 90% of the competition doesn't even have a tag. I'm not splitting hairs, there's a huge difference.

 

[isayNUNYA]

Maybe you shouldnt worry about how other people chose to hunt Addict. It sounds more and more like your just upset because you are being out hunted. Draw your tag and hunt. rest assured that when you do Doyle Moss Is not going to run you off the mountain. No group of guides are going to surround and threaten you, flaten your tires, block your road or whatever it is your worried about.
Having just returned from a Mt goat hunt which I was guideing I'll tell you the story. We left early on horses to get to a group of billies we had scouted. We were on the trail at 530am and figured we would be on the goats at first light and beat anyone else to the Billies. We reached the ridge top close to where the group was the night before. It was light enough to see the billies were there but still 20 minutes before legal shooting light. We set up our scopes on the ridge and were waiting when a DIY guy must have noticed us. He was just below the goats and must have left at 4 am to walk in to be there that early. He flashed us with a flash light to let us know he was there. Now I'm sure since you have heard so many stories you would believe that numerous guides ran frrom the hills to surround this DIY guy and make him leave "the guides mountain". But having been beat to the punch we packed up and left the group and the DIY guy in search of another bunch of billies. We rode a short way when we met a group of 6 guys who where helping a different DIY guy all on horses. They were riding straight for the billies we had just left. We stopped and breifly told them that there was a group of billies over the ridge, however there was a hunter waiting for shooting light on them already. The DIY guys shruged and kicked their horses in the direction of the heard. They rode straight over the ridge and to within 100 yards of the goats before shooting light. I don't know what happend after that as we had rode off to find another billie.
Bottom line is its a combat world out there and if you don't scout harder, get up earlier, stay out later, walk farther, sit longer, shoot straighter than the other guy, who ever it may be you might come home empty.
They could outlaw guideing all together and it would not make you more succesful.
As far as having Two books one for guided and one for DIY? Its the animal that is holding the record not the hunter. Really who cares who killed it.

 

[ADDICT]

isaynunya--

Nice story--are you through patting your almighty ethical back yet? I do appreciate the advice on my jealous rage from being outhunted. I do need to wake up earlier, hunt later, hike further etc. I'm now better equipped to "combat" in the hunting world.

Go look up theoretical and re-read my original post. I wanted feedback on what seemed to be a problem with other hunters.

I hope Doyle Moss and the boys don't get me (I happen to really respect those guys ability to consistently harvest the best on video and buy everything they come out with. Its just not the same as Joe-Schmoe and his neighbor pounding the hills as early as you obviously do).

Nothing will change. No policies or regulations with pass that will affect guides. I don't think we see things as polarized as you inferred.

If the animal gets the credit then let's let the high-fence stuff in B&C--not much difference in that analogy to me.

Oh well, to each his own.

 

[isayNUNYA]

Yes jealous rage is a good analogy.

 

[mevertsen]

I think there are good and bad in all different groups of people in this world.

Just because someone chooses to use a guide makes no difference to me, be it public or private land. If the guide pays their fees, and are honest and respectful with themselves, the hunter they are guiding, and other hunters, then what is wrong with it?

Some people are just not able to do what needs to be done to be sucessful without the help of a guide.

Some people also think that a group of 10+ people in camp is just fine also.


I have seen "DIY" hunters do more stupid, disrespectful errogant, baligerant, and threatening things than I have ever seen a guide do.

2 examples:

Last year I was scouting for my cow elk hunt. The archery bull hunt was in progress. There was a camp set up that had 2 fifth wheels, 2 pull behind campers, 1 cab over camper, a few tents, and several pick-ups. There were also about 1/2 dozen fourwheelers, and several motocycles. There was 1 tag in that group. While the one person was hunting with a good part of the group, there were kids and adults alike riding their motorcycles and 4 wheelers up and down the roads, and otherwise raising a rucus. The person who had the tag was not hunting near camp, probably 5 miles away, and the people never disturbed that hunt, but I am sure they disturbed other peoples hunts.

Another example is about 2000 or 2001, my dad and I were hunting deer during the early rifle season here in Nv. My dad walked onto a ridge and was glassing a bowl, and had found a buck. Some dork in a home made off road rig, tore up the hillside (no road), and drove within yards of my dad. It was not until my dad actually yelled at him that he even realized my dad was there. During that whole hunt, we were running into people like that all over who had zero respect for other hunters.

I have yet to see a guide act like I desrcribed above. They have too much riding on the line to act like that, IMO. And if they do act like that, then they need to have their license pulled, IMO.

Don't judge a book by its cover.

Later,

Marcial

 

[nickman]

Hossblur, if your measure of a man is gauged by his hunting accomplishments, I feel desperately sorry for you......you got a lot to learn son.

Hunting is a recreational activity, anybody can do it. It may prove that you are tougher than the next guy, but "more of a man".......I seriously think not!

Visit your nearest VA Hospital, or find a father with an invalid wife and 3 kids, who is working 2 jobs to keep his family together.

What happens in the woods won't ever make you a man.

Well, I might bend on that, if someone ACTUALLY did have sex with a Griz and made her smoke a cigarette afterwards!

 

[huntindad4]

If the book is only about the animal then I say we still need a new book ....WITHOUT the hunters name.

I will agree that there is far more unethical DIYers than guides on some areas. My comments were not meant to disparage guides or guided hunters as lesser men and agree a person's hunting ability isn't a proper measurement of him as a man.

Again hunt in a manner that suits you and makes you proud and nobody can take anything away from you with a post on an internet forum.

Bill

 

[ADDICT]

Thanks for all of the feedback. I never said guides were bad guys or unethical. There truly are both good/bad/ DIYers and guides.

I also fully agree there is a place for guiding in hunting. Many hunters prefer, need, value a guide. To each his own. One-on-one or even two-on-one guide to hunter ratios are never a problem to me. The same can be said about having a couple of friends join you on a hunt to assist. I refer to the multiple teams of hunters, friends or guides, blanketing a unit and coordinating their efforts for ONE tag.

It will never be outlawed because it's impossible to prove, never black and white, obviously not commonly agreed on and most importantly it's a free country and OUR land. Everyone has the right to access public land and use it to their liking. What if someone decided to take 100 Boy Scouts into a premium LE unit during a hunt? There's really nothing we could do or say about it.

My reference to allowing guiding on private land was really meant to direct the issue to private property use. Those that want a guide, need a guide, or literally have a once-in-a-lifetime attempt at a trophy could certain find the same opportunity on private land.

Does that make it right? Does that make the animal itself any less of a trophy? It's an indiviual's decision.

There have been some great points brought up here. What kills me is pulling all of the emotion into it!