Grizzly attack in YNP

[mightyhunter]

http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...-013a5e4654ae.html?comment_form=true#comments
The biologists would have you believe these attacks are just isolated incidents. Considering that the grizzly population in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem is reputed to be between 500-800 bears, there have been 3 attacks this year. Last year there were 2 deaths in YNP as a result of grizzly bear attacks. I have no problem with the theory that if you get out of your car you take your chances with these bears. What bothers me is the "experts" claiming these attacks are isolated incidents. They aren't isolated instances and if it were humans attacking humans it would be classified as a crime wave. The grizzly bear is "pissy" and does not play well with others. That is the truth that these experts should be spreading.

 

[bucklover]

Grizzly bear attacks are very isolated. They only happen where there are grizzly bears.

 

[TOPGUN]

I'm actually really surprised that there aren't a lot more incidents with the number of bears in the ecosystem, which I thnk is underestimated.

 

[Zeke]

+1 to mightyhunter.
I agree with everything you and the other posters said.

Some of these "experts" are doing the "CYA" dance so the tourist base doesn't decline.

I've spent a fair amount of time in grizzly bears country and I can attest that they "don't play well with others". I've been within mear feet of a couple different bears and I don't like the feeling. Luckily I had a rifle both times.

I woke one morning to one walking between our tents! I just don't know how many have walked through our camps while we were sleeping!?!

Zeke

 

[mmwb]

There was another attack over in the Island Park area within 30 minutes of the one in Yellowstone. Grizzlies, wolves, even coyotes, as soon as too much crossover between predator and people--if the predators are in an area with no reason to fear people--there will be attacks.

 

[nfh]

I like the last line of attacks pick up as hunters search for elk.


What I notice is out elk hunting after getting an elk down on the ground them bears know what a gun shot means. Means a free gut pile.

The goal of grizzly numbers has been reached several times and keeps growing.

I wont go on as we all know the problems.

 

[mightyhunter]

http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_7620d8fe-313b-5b20-9f19-013a5e4654ae.html

 

[BuzzH]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-17-13 AT 11:28AM (MST)[p]Funny how many choose to ignore facts while fear mongering and agenda pushing...

From 1980-1988, there were more fatal grizzly attacks in the lower-48 than the combined years 1989-2012.

Also fair to note is that grizzly bears were legally hunted until 1991 in Montana.

Listening to the pure BS being posted on this site, there seems to be unanimous and unfounded "proof" that unhunted grizzly populations, as well as increased total grizzly populations, are resulting in more deaths.

Not true at all...in reality the exact opposite is the actual "fact". I think awareness, education, etc. have been the reasons for less fatalities, even though grizzly numbers clearly are higher now.

While I see no good reason to NOT allow limited grizzly hunting, its a bit disingenious, at best, to argue that a hunted population of bears is any less dangerous than a population thats not.

Peddling fear as a means to justify a grizzly season is ridiculous, unfounded, and simply a complete distortion of the truth.

The justification for a hunt should be founded 100% on the population...not on fear. There is no question that a limited season would do nothing to harm the recovered population. I'm equally confident that the number of fatal attacks will not decline over historic numbers just because we successfully hunt a handful of grizzlies.

 

[mightyhunter]

Buzz H,

No fear mongering here. If I was afraid, I wouldn't spend my time hiking and hunting in NW Wyoming. The minute you step out of your vehicle in this area, you are on your own when it comes to grizzly bears. You have to accept that reality and there is no such thing as being too careful. I have had three close calls and felt fortunate that I saw the bear before they were aware of me. In two of those incidents, my rifle was trained on the bear as I backed out of the area. The USFWS,YNP officials, and other state and federal spokesman like to downplay the risk associated with wandering into the woods in this part of Wyoming. They like to claim that the attacks are just isolated incidents or that the bear had good cause to maul someone. To admit that the grizzly bears are a real danger isn't good for tourism. These folks are told what to say and repeat those talking points in order to keep their jobs. Unfortunately, they do a disservice to those novice hikers and first time hunters that are not familiar with the ways of this area.

When folks PM me about hunting opportunities in this area, they almost always want to know about the bears. Are the bears still out in October and November? Yes. Do they come to rifle shots? Some do.Do they only want the gut piles? No. If you pee or leave an article of clothing on your kill will the bears leave it alone? Hell no. What is better, a firearm or spray? I don't know. In many instances the people that I know have not had time to fire their weapons or deploy their pepper spray before they were attacked. Two people (Loeper and Ruth) that I know killed their attackers after they were initially mauled. The best defense is being smart and aware at all times. However, that still may not be enough. The fellow mauled on the South Fork of the Shoshone this year had neither spray or a firearm. In subsequent articles, this eco-elite admitted he had become complacent.

Grizzly bears can be "pissy" and they do not play well with others. That was a fact a 200 years ago and it is a fact today. There are drainages in the Sunlight, Crandall and the Shoshone River areas that have lots of grizzly bears. There are a few drainages I won't hike or hunt in because of the bears. There are even more drainages that I will not camp overnight in. I become very vigilant in heavily timbered areas. That is me doing what is best for me. That being said, I have no problem hiking alone in the dark with a headlight in bear country.

The only agenda I have is people need to be careful out there. Statistics are fine but they do not tell the whole story. Problem bears weren't being moved 25 years ago. I don't think that bear spray as a defensive tool even existed in the 80's. There are lots of hikers and fisherman that didn't carry firearms 25 years ago that carry them now. Me included. Statistics are the favorite tool of bureaucrats and government folk. Early in the recovery, there was an elderly berry picker killed around Priest Lake by a grizzly bear. It was never reported as a bear kill. There goes the accuracy of those pesky statistics. I have a friend (Tony Lamanna) who ran man trailing hounds in the search for that man. There was no doubt in his mind what happened. Because of politics, Chris Servheen wanted the facts on the ground pushed aside because it wasn't good for the new recovery program. Things haven't changed much. He was the same person who tried to cover up the circumstances surrounding the death of the elderly gentleman on Libby Creek and the camper near Cooke City. It was amazing how the real truth came out long after his press releases.

You can believe me or not. You can choose to believe guys like BuzzH who live in the Laramie area. The only point I want to get across, is be careful out there and don't believe everything some government guy releases in a public statement. I stand by my comment that some grizzly bears are "pissy" and don't play well with others. They kind of remind me of a few people that post in these forums.

just sayin....

mh

 

[TOPGUN]

Good post MH! I think it's because of some of these novices hiking into the back country that don't have enough fear, for lack of a better word, or knowledge of what they may be getting into that cause these situations. It is just natural that with an increasing bear population in the ecosystem where a lot of people want to go hiking/camping/hunting that there will be more and more encounters. The only ones that are reported in the news are ones that result in injuries or deaths and I'd suggest that's why they are called "isolated incidents". When I read posts from guys like yourself that are in those areas all the time and make posts about areas you won't even hunt in any more because of the large number of bears it tells me there are too many. I know my buddy in Sheridan went on his outfitted sheep hunt in 2003 above Cody and saw as many bears in the two drainages he hunted than he did sheep! Add another 10 years since then and the population surely didn't go down! I have no idea whether hunting them would make them fear humans more, but I doubt it because it would probably take decades of killing a large number to engrain the fear of humans into their descendents.

 

[BuzzH]

MH,

I can agree with about 90% of your post, that people need to be aware, careful, etc.

However, there are things you state that are so far from reality it really is laughable...and I mean really laughable.

For starters, "The USFWS,YNP officials, and other state and federal spokesman like to downplay the risk associated with wandering into the woods in this part of Wyoming. They like to claim that the attacks are just isolated incidents or that the bear had good cause to maul someone."

Really? Is that why every single forest map I have in my possession goes into great detail about being "bear aware". proper food storage, location of bear boxes, etc.? Is that why every friggin' NF website in grizzly country has sections dedicated on things you should do in bear/grizzly country? Is that why I hear over and over again on any news reports, newspaper articles, etc. that hikers, hunters, and other recreationists should be reminded about proper behavior in bear country? How about the signs at trailheads? Been to one lately that DOESNT have bear aware literature plastered all over it?

Anyone thats using the excuse that agencies are "downplaying" the risks of bear encounters and potential attacks is living somewhere between fantasy land and the State of total denial. Anyone using this excuse absolutely deserves to be bear chit and the human gene pool would probably be better without them.

As far as statistics go...you're about 30 times more likely to be killed by lightning than a bear.

Also, what do you call a handful of bear attacks per year versus the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of hours that people spend fishing, hunting, and recreating in grizzly country? Anyone using any amount of common sense would call those incidents isolated and incredibly unlikely even in the most densely populated areas.

While I'm not defending the actions of any agency or bear, the simple facts are that many times people and their actions, have a large part of the blame when an attack happens. A classic example is the couple in Evaro Montana that were shocked their toddler was killed by the Mountain lions that they observed living under their deck for the week prior! Yeah, its all the lions fault!

Also, as I've explained to you countless times...I have spent many, many, many years in grizzly country in the lower-48 both professionally and for pleasure throughout MT, ID, and WY. You know places like YNP, GNP, Bob Marshall, Scapegoat, Cabinets, Yaak, Missions, Swan Range...ground zero for the entire lower-48 population...and "only" for the last 44 years.

I wont bore you with the places I've hunted like the Chugach, Kenia Peninsula, Yukon, or Kodiak Island...I pretty much stay locked up in an office in Laramie.

However, I still agree with you that people cant be too careful.

 

[mightyhunter]

Buzz H,

You are also good for a laugh. At least you didn't try to make excuses for Chris Servheen. That guy should have been canned 20 years ago. The mantra from various officials after every bear attack is always the same. This is an isolated incident, or the bear was just protecting its young. These press releases underplay the true danger that exists. You cannot let your guard down but these spokespeople would have you believe that this stuff never happens. That is just not true. The few signs they put up contradict the stupid press releases that they release after every bear incident. Again, grizzly bears are "pissy" and they do not play well with others. This is not something new. It is funny that the new breed of PC government spokesman and biologists prefer Ursus Arctos to Ursus Horribilis when they label them. The latter kind of sums it up for me. BuzzH, what is your preference?

BuzzH I know you have been there and done that. I have visions of you in your Huggies walking in the wilds some 44 years ago. When I lived in the Selkirks in North Idaho I would occasionally run into grizzly bears in the fall in huckleberry patches. They usually turned tail and ran. That is not my experience in this part of NW Wyoming. In my opinion, the grizzly bears in this area are more aggressive and more "pissy" than their counterparts in North Idaho.

The signs you speak of crack me up. Here is a USFS sign that once was a whole sheet of plywood. Guess what happened to it?


That sign is now totally gone. The first grizzly bear that charged me was chewing on this sign when I came upon him. I think they like the glue in the plywood. This sign has never been replaced. The guys at the USFS may be just too busy going to endless meetings, passing out maps or closing campgrounds. You are hard pressed to find any signs around here. The most common in this area are those asking for donations at trailheads or those begging you not to throw trash in the outhouses.

It is scary when we do agree on something. Be careful out there and never let your guard down. I say watch for lightning and for grizzly bears. They both can sneak up on you and kick your butt.

just sayin...

mh

 

[ZIGGER]

LOL.....great reading.

 

[mmwb]

There is a difference between fear and vigilance. There is a tendency in the media, regardless of their source, to still down play the natural tendency of predators to act like predators. Lately the big thing is coyotes. Not withstanding an increase in attacks by the canines (most particularly in suburban and urban edge areas), the media continues to posit that this is abnormal behavior. Maybe it was, and maybe it still is, but it is becoming more normal.

For experienced woodsmen, I believe it is a whole different story than for the general population. We are more vigilant, more aware of the immediate environment and more aware of the potential for things to go bad, so naturally we take care. For those who still think that grizzlies are more like something off the Disney channel rather than somewhat irritable, aggressive predators, the potential for problems go up. That being said, even experienced hunters are dealing with bear problems.

 

[ZIGGER]

...predators have only 2 thoughts their entire lives....."can I eat it?" or "can I phuk it?

 

[jodog]

With all the clueless yuppies I see running around YNP I'm surprised there isn't a mauling/killing a day. Last month I took my grandkids there and saw a guy about 100 yards from a big bull Bison out in a huge treeless pasture with 2 girls about 100 yards behind him and about 400 yards from their car. He was taking pics of the bull and had about a 400 - 500 yard run to the car. So they can put up all the signs and sayings on maps they want. They are kinda like the sign....gun free zone....as long as there are people and griz there will be killings and mauling's. We need a ....stupid people free zone ...sign.

 

[junior]

I am wondering if some of you guys ever hunted a hunted population? It's just a little bit harder! Pun intended.

Goes to show, some people can speak 5 different languages and yet have no clue the surroundings. You just can't buy good ole common sense.

 

[feduptwo]

What our resident bureaucrat doesn't mention is the alarming trend of increasing bear attacks.
We had a pile of fatalities in the 80's and according to what I read government agencies implemented massive changes in how national parks were managed (with respect to food storage, back country camping, and people management).
Best I can tell is there wasn't a fatal bear attack for two decades in the lower 48. That was until 2010 and since then we've had 4 fatalities and a pile of non fatal bear attacks. One website claimed that there was a 148% increase in bear attacks in the first 2 years of this decade compared to the first 2 years of 2002. People that frequently recreate in the grizzly recovery area report a ton more problems. This will lead to more attacks!!!
If you look at lightening injuries inside the grizzly recovery area in the last two years I'm sure you'd find that there was less serious injuries involving lightening than grizzly attacks especially if you minus high numbers of climbers that got struck in the Tetons.
Data can be skewed to fit whatever side of the argument you fall on and I agree with everyone who says bears demand the utmost respect. Be prepared, have a plan, and utilize pepper spray, large bore hand guns, shotguns and common sense.

 

[songdog]

I have a question for my friends in grizzly country. Due to the introduction of wolves in the Yellowstone ecosystem which has decimated the elk and moose herds, have the grizzlies started to roam about over more country looking for food? I am sure that the grizzlies feasted aplenty on calf elk and sickly elk when the elk herds numbered in the thousands. Now that the elk herds have dwindled in the low thousands or high hundreds in many areas, it appears the grizz lost a valuable source of food. Therefore, I suspect they are roaming over large expanses of country looking for a meal. More people taking to the woods and countrysides means the odds are higher for human/grizz encounters and conflicts. Does this theory make any sense? Just asking...

To make a long story short, I think that the wolf introduction added yet another negative variable to the effed up system which:
(1)equals more wolves
(2)less elk, moose, & deer
(3)violent encounters w/ grizz

 

[jodog]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-13 AT 07:18PM (MST)[p]

 

[feduptwo]

What was crazy in the browsing I did on bear attacks and our current situation is the insane number of black bear attacks that resulted in death. I will probably look at black bears as a little more of a threat than I have in the past.I've seen just about as many black bears this summer scouting as I have buck mule deer. Some of black bear attacks can be explained by the fact that there are 100x the population and 20x the area that they live.

 

[feduptwo]

Song Dog,

Common sense would say that some of what you speak is true but Doug Smith and others from the USFWS say that bears and wolves don't eat meat therefore there can be no validity to this argument.

 

[songdog]

feduptwo,

I don't know what I was thinking as my mind must have been somewhere else. I knew all along that wolves are browers and not grazers or meat eaters. Sorry for the brain fart...

Those highly trained and educated biologists at the USFWS are much smarter than the average 5th grader! Common sense or horse sense is something that is being bred out of the population in this country. May God help us!