Good, bad, or just plain ugly??

[Cam@strawberry]

Had an interesting conversation with a fella the other day who has a very strong negative opinion about guides and what 'they' have done to hunting in general......

It made me wonder how other people feel about it, have guides been good for hunting, bad for hunting, or just ugly??

I raise the question simply because the guides that I know are the most avid and active SPORTSMEN, i use that word deliberately, around. They, for the most part, seem to want the best for the animals and all parties involved. Integrity is a part of them and they simply do what they do because they are dang good at it.

So for those who care to throw the 2 cents in, WHAT do you think, and more importantly please give us the WHY. Factual reasons are much better than just half baked opinions.

 

[YELUM]

They fill a need like a doctor, dentist, fireman, etc. Not everyone needs or wants one, but those that do, appreciate them. Like the above mentioned professions, there are good ones and bad ones. Fornunately for me, I've never met a bad one.

Yelum

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Well said Yelum!


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[eldorado]

I second that Yelum.

Eldorado

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

I have to add one more thing. The hunting industry has done a lot more for me personally (and I'm not talking financially) than I have done for it. The friends and people that I have had a chance to meet and associate with over the years has been a real god-send in my life. I don't think I could ever give back enough to even it out.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[sageadvice]

Berry B, If you want to know what people think, why end your appeal with this?
"Factual reasons are much better than just half baked opinions."

Also, when you speak of "Guides", are you referring to the whole industry of clients willing to pay a lot of money to have a better chance of killing trophy animals?

Myself, guides i have -0- problems with. Most are doing something that they really like and enjoy for not a whole lot of money. The process of contracting up huge chunks of private land for the exclusive use of affluent clients though, has gotten completely out of hand.

I'm plenty old enough to remember knocking on doors to get permission to hunt. Couple, maybe a few, doors and just being oneself was all it took back as a young man. Now it seems it's all about the money and those knocking on doors are finding it a lot harder if not impossible to find decent private land to hunt. I blame this on the "industry".

If this sounds like a "half baked opinion" fine, so be it!

Joey

 

[Bill_in_MI]

This is not as simple as blaming landowners for wanting to make money off the land and/or the resources found on their land. After all, economic necessity dictates finding creative ways to make enough money to make sure the note is covered. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with this and is good ole American capitalism at work.

Whether the "industry" caused this or whether increasing economic pressures (never mind an out-of-control legal system rewarding a litigious cross section of society) caused landowners to look for ways to make more money while at the same time reducing perceived risk of non-family recreational trespassing, who can say.

Yes it sucks, I don't see a way out though.

Bill in MI

 

[TOPGUN]

I think Joey and Bill both make good points. I also can remember back when it didn't take much other than politely asking or maybe giving back and helping a guy mend fences or take in the hay for a day or two for the rights to hunt a piece of land. One guy came on here and gave me the business for something I posted and when I clicked on his website link showing on the bottom of his post the first thing I read was that he had exclusive rights to guide on over 700,000 acres of land! Another outfitter I know of in Wyoming now has over 1 million acres locked up in Wyoming and Montana. That's just two people, so it's easy to understand why a lot of people people are on top of each other in some of the public lands that have decent game populations. When they started calling our sport an "industry", which it now most certainly is, I began to realize that for a lot of folks it's just the money and not love for the game and outdoors. That same thing has now been happening for the past 20 years or more in most of the other sports with the money athletes are making and I really wonder where it's going to stop.

 

[Robiland]

I have had both good and bad experiences with guides. I have a couple of friends that guide, but have never paid to use one. The first experience was a guy by the name Of Sean. He is a GREAT guy and now a good friend. He helped me on my archery elk hunt on the Manti. We did not know each othe before hand. He led me to anohter GREAT guy by the name of Ryan. Both guys guide, and Ryan actually helped me out on 2 different hunts even while guiding others. Purely top notch guy. We are all friends now.

The bad experinces came both times while out hunting on my LE elk hunts. I was chased and hurrased and accused of poaching and told to get out of the area because it was "thier" area. Both bad experiences came from the same guide on the same area only 3 years apart. His Name Was Mike E... and we will leave it at that.

I think there is good, bad, and ugly in every industry if you look deep enough. I have been fortunate enough to make 2 great friends and unfortunately 1 enemy from guides.

I personaly wish I was a guide. I love to hunt and be in the outdoors and meet people. It could not get any better than that!

 

[piper]

I think everyone knows where hunting will end up, and its just the natural evolution of capitalism and turning a limited natural recource into an industry. Pack trains taking big name hunters into the wilds of BC or the wilderness of Wyoming, has now branched into ten thousand dollar finders fees for trophys in highly managed limited quota areas where the animals have first names. Big money for big horns means pushing the envelope, Its not your fathers game anymore. Its not personal, its just the way it is, locked up private land is just part of the same evolutionary cycle.

 

[Cam@strawberry]

Sage, I guess that last statement was aimed at getting responses like yours with intelligent reason rather than what NONYA posted which was just one word. IMHO thats a half baked opinion while yours has factual reasons to support how you feel....thats all.....thanks for the time spent BTW ;-)

 

[OldMan]

I can't disagree with a single thing that has been mentioned. Unfortunately there is no end to it as questioned above. It is business now and the "industry" is growing. Gone are the days of easy and free access. I can remember being invited to hunt private land just because people knew you hunted - this rarely happens anymore.

 

[kawboy]

I think guides have their place. You always hear horror stories of the mossback guides and others. But I have never talked to someone who has had it happen to them personally. I know a lot of people that say the guides they have met are outstanding people.
The statement earlier nailed it on the head. There is good, bad, and ugly in everything. That's true in religion, politics, and life in general.
Its sad to see hunting going the way it is, Money Money Money, but I would be lying if I said I wouldn't be spending big money on hunts if I had it.
For the fun hunts I do every year I would never hire a guide. I feel that I do pretty well. But I have invested 16 years on building elk points, a guide is a definite possibility. For sure when I finally save enough money to hunt muleys in canada, I want a guide.
It is what it is, wherever you stand find a way to win the game

I'll tell you who it was . . . it was that D@MN Sasquatch!

 

[wileywapati]

I guess for me it would depend on the circumstances when the opinion is delivered.

Would a guide help you get your rig up and running if you were stranded, would he report poachers, would he point a kid in the right direction for free?? I would bet most would gladly do all of the above.

That being said, especially in Utah we have reached the point in game management that we are catering to this segment of hunting. It ain't just the guides either, in fact I would place most of the negatives on us as hunters. Plenty of todays hunters want the "look at me" moment and will do just about anything to get there. If it means hunting on ground that has been locked up,
poaching and so on.

I've got absolutely no problem with guides. I do have some serious concerns with what some as hunters are willing to do
and most importantly tell other hunters what they can't do so they can get their magazine cover.










2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE

 

[NONYAMT]

And you are just commenting on other peoples opinions...perfect.

 

[Pre64]

I remember a whole lot of NO HUNTING signs growing up. I also remember land owners posting their land and not allowing hunting due to idiot hunters driving through fences or shooting up water troughs. Doesn't take a huge bank account to abuse property, public or private.

High dollar hunting is an issue, but its not the issue. IMHO.

 

[gb22]

If those are the men you know, consider yourself fortunate. To an all-too-large a degree, those who make a living from the wildlife have done and continue to do horrible things to the sport.....money has not been called the root of all evil without reason.

Ethics and the standards of a successful hunt have changed and those who make money from the process have been a huge part of the part that has changed for the worse.


Within the shadows, go quietly.

 

[Cam@strawberry]

i think its interesting to see how many of the MM 'oldtimers' chimed in on this, if i read correctly most of the opinion centred around the effect that money has had on the sport rather than what guides do.

I think, I may be wrong, but i think that most would be cheaper if the world around them was cheaper. Our guide fee is based completely on the amount of money it takes to operate.

Meaning how much it money it takes in the current day to scout 3-4 times a week in gas; food, lodging, and transportation for the hunter for 10-11 days, time, and wear and tear on the vehicles and bodies.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with how much the hunt is worth, I would venture to say that most of our hunters would say priceless when it comes to that neck of the woods.

 

[piper]

I think what trophy guides do is generally detrimental to the sport. Guiding hunters in thousands of square miles of Yukon wilderness is one thing. Taking wealthy trophy hunters in heavily roaded limited quota areas, hanging web cams in every spring, offering multi thousand dollar finder fees for certain size animals, and paying a group of people to spot game turns the old stomach a little. Yes, its a bit ugly in my opinion, but what can you do?

 

[Cam@strawberry]

Piper I'm calling you on this one, can you prove conclusivly that the majority of guides are doing this in any state or states?? Can you even prove that a minority of them do?? or is it just heresay he said she said......I know personally most of the finest guides in the state of UT I KNOW for a fact that none of that occurs with them. I would venture to believe that if 'UTARDS' don't do it than no one else does either.

Honestly I think that these kind of responses are a product of jealousy and envy......made up fantasy tales to justify the inability to hunt as well as others......

I could have killed the bull or buck but....

Has this happened yes, robiland experienced it above but it is the exception not the normal or even common for that matter.

 

[STEELSTUD]

Guys,
I have just came back off the mountain to take a break and cool down for a few days. I have the House Rock sring Buffalo tag and I have ran across the most arrogant pushy outfitter I have ever met. First let me say I am an avid hunter and my nephew that was with me at the time filming, guides for, who I concider to be the top strip guide out there.
That being said, this guy thought he owned the mountain and walk in on our stand late in the afternoon, accuse me of steeling his salt, walk back to his rig, brought in more salt and set up a griund blind while we were sitting there. He had been hunting five miles from away but the Buffalo had moved out. What would you say about this outfitters sportsmanship??

During this same hunt, I have to say I also met an outfitter out of Flag. that was the nicest, polite and courteous bunch you could hope to meet. They also scored four bulls, one may be the new # 3 all time.

That's my two cents. The good & the bad.

 

[shotgunjim]

After 30+ years of hunting I can only say I've had one bad experience with a guide. When I was a teenager in Idaho I hiked several miles into the backcountry and was sitting on a ridge glassing, along comes a guide and his hunter, the guide tells me he has 50 square miles leased and no one else should be hunting there. I called his bluff told him he's full of sh!t and to go f&%@ himself. Once he saw I wasn't stupid enough to believe his BS they left.

Now fishing guides, most of them suck, but thats another topic.


No estas en mexico ahora, entonces escoja tu basura
chancho sucio.

 

[NONYAMT]

We have half ass guides trying to run us off public land every GD year,the worthless F&G wont do anything about it,they told us to tell the guides to F off....The worst part of these damn outfitters,they have the F&G in their pocket and they know what they can get away with.Not all outfitters are like this,but you are going to hear about them 1000 times before you hear about the good ones who dont bother people.If you dont think these things are going on either 1: you dont get out much or 2: you are full of shite and probably affliated with an outfitter.

 

[DMCHUNTER]

You got good people and you have bad people. I think Greed and Egos has done more to hurt the sport than anything. Everything you see is based on Score these days. Everyone has to get a bull or buck bigger than the next guy and a lot of people will do anything to get it especially when money is involved.

I don't think guides should get any special tags or special rules requring people to use them.

Again good ones and bad ones. It also only takes 1 bad apple to spoil the basket.

 

[Zeke]

I think good guides are SOME of the most avid outdoorsmen, not THE most avid. SOME guide get a bit of a superiority complex because of the caliber of THEIR hunters. My 2 cents.

There are poor guides and there are great guides... and everything in between.

I have only used a handful of guides in 40+ years of hunting. The ones I've had were great (except the 18 yr old dope smoker on my first Dall sheep hunt)!

The local guides who I know personally, are great people and have shown their top notch ethics over years of service. They work hard to keep their hunters safe and succesful. I don't know all the local guides though and I'm sure lots of folks can site second-hand horror stories about their greed etc.

Speaking of money.... figure it out for yourself guys. Scout for 2 or 3 days, hunt for 7-10 days, provide the food, truck, quad, back, legs, eyes, knowledge and what would you sell it for? If you THINK at all then you can see why thousands of dollars is just not too much money for all that! IMHO (plus the guide has to put up with a "hunter" who is slower, fatter, and a general whiney turd sometimes)

I'm not overly excited about the overall "outfitting" business though. The do compete for land and animals etc.

I made the distinction between guides and outfitters. Is that OK?

Zeke

 

[hunting1]

They are fine but should only be able to operate on private land! My opinion!

 

[hossblur]

UGLY!!!!

I was at the RAC when the Northern Goose was brought up. Not one voice was in support OTHER than the big clubs up north. Biologically it was better to have a small window in Oct. to extend the hunt into Jan further. The sportsman were in favor because most of us were deer/elk hunting then, and the geese return to the swamp in Jan. giving us a better chance. Check your proclamation, there is a northern goose area, simply because the big clubs didn't want to loose "bookings" while there wasn't ice.

Antelope Island deer tag, enough said.

Spidey, perhaps the only trophy quality elk to ever have hunters openly cheering for his survival, only because of the crap surrounding his hunt.

HOWEVER, they are just the pimps, they get offered money to give up what most of us do out of love. Its the Johns that are the problem. As long as there is video, and score books there will be the Johns. I personally am shocked by guys who live in Utah, and pay a Utah guide 10k for a hunt in Utah, why? Other than the need to be an alpha male. For 10k I can buy a Rhino, or good jeep and spend years with my kids wandering the mtns.

Can the problem be checked, sure. The state takes 50% if the guide fees for all public land guided hunts, after all they own, protect, care for the animals, the guide shows up one day and points to a trigger puller. We charge oil companies, coal companies, and whoever else to use the publics land for profit same should go for guides. Second, score books like P&Y, should publish 2 books, 1 DIY, the other guided, lets see who the REAL hunters are.

In closing, I caught a show on one of the outdoor channels a while back that was dedicated to whitetail "farming". This is where we are headed, not conservationalits, not hunters, not outdoorsman, we are headed to WWE with roided out animals and over the top front men pitching them, don't believ me, go to a SFW banquet or the sping show. Is that the guides fault? No more than it is the Meth cooks fault that there are meth adddicts, but that doesn't mean they are without blame either. Go ahead AWLOB, I know your coming for me, guess we have been gettin along to well lately

 

[NONYAMT]

LAST EDITED ON May-31-11 AT 09:02PM (MST)[p]I cant set up shop and run a business on a piece of state/Nat Forest land behind my house,WTF should an outfitter be able to do so and make his business harvesting the public's wildlife? Its a crock and everyone knows it,they do nothing for the sport that doesnt somehow profit them in the long run,they dont give a damn about any hunters that arnt forking over cash to have their ass's wiped and led my the #### to a big buck/bull.More and more people are getting fed up with their tactics and political BS,the people of MT made that very obvious when we voted the I161 into law last year taking away the guaranteed tags set aside for outfitters,at least in my state the tides have turned back in favor of the DIY hunter.

 

[mulecreek]

NONYAMT,
Yes you can you just need to be ready to pay the feds and the state for the right to do so. Plenty of businesses are run on public land. Mining, oil and gas are a few of the big ones. If you don't think businesses should be able to operate on public land you better be prepared to do without power, fuel and everything else you own or use in life. If it can't be grown it has to be mined.

I respect your opinion and even agree with some of it, but a couple of your thoughts are incorrect.

 

[NONYAMT]

LAST EDITED ON May-31-11 AT 11:17PM (MST)[p]Ok ill go over across the fence tomorrow on to the Nat Forest and start clearing land so I can plant some winter wheat,Ill need to push some irrigation wheel lines over the fence so Ill just cut them down.BTW where do I get my permit?They pick and choose what gets done where by whom,if its not BIG money its not allowed,plain and simple.When their business impacts the lifestyle and the heritage of the hunters who have to use public land to do what they love whatever positive impact they may have on the economy is no longer beneficial.When Im headed up to some small chunks of state land to hunt spots Ive hunted since I was a boy with my father and I have to worry about which outfitter form Canada or Wy or wherever is going to be there that day and what kind Of BS are they going to come up with this time to try to run us off land we have hunted for generations so they can make an easy buck off MTs public land I no longer have any tolerance for ANY of them.I know there are great outfitters out there that never bother anyone but for every one of them there are 20 of them that should be crucified for the BS they pull.The whole profession comes at the cost of the every day hunter who doesn't have private land access and cant afford a guide or wouldn't hire one if he could because he has a better understanding for what hunting is all about.Its controlled by greed,the ones using public land should be done away with,its a public resource and they are capitalizing on it,not for the joy of the hunt but for the greed for money.They are slowly destroying the small amount of precious integrity our sport still holds in the public eye,we have to do something about them before it is too late.One MT legislator proved it can be done and the people of MT proved the outfitters arnt going to be on the welfare tit as long as we still make the decisions,even with all their bought and paid for politicians they lost their fights here,we have done away with high fence hunting and outfitter tags,we are winning small battles every year.The MT outfitter ass. better figure out these scrubs are going to be their downfall and start policing themselves,they are their own worst enemy's.

 

[Cam@strawberry]

For those who think Guides are not charged, i'd invite you too actually go find out what it costs to get a legit outfitters license, the insurance required by law to operate, along with permit fees to operate on a National forest.......ETC ETC......Oh it costs, it costs an arm and a leg to operate......Some of the stuff that has been posted is wholly inaccurate and in most cases ignorant. Not trying to be mean or disagreeable, just stating some simple fact.

2ndly, There is no such thing as a 'shoot' on a guided hunt. It is harder to guide a guy too a quality animal than it is to hunt alone.

3rdly for hossblur, farmed animals are not a direction that I would say MOST guides want to go. That is not hunting and it would remove the need for a guide for the most part.

 

[shotgun1]

I don't have any problems with guides or outfitters, my beef is with little Do-Gooder snitches who work in Marina stores.

 

[Cam@strawberry]

Ya know shotgun, i've apologized for supposedly turning you in for no reason, I don't even remember it you aren't the first and weren't the last. Forgive me if keeping an eye open for stuff is wrong now.

Obviously you did nothing wrong and I or whomever it was that turned you in was totally wrong. I apologize for hurting your pride, I'm sorry for trying to do the right thing and messing up some part of your day.....hopefully you can find it in your heart to forgive me if not well shoot I dunno what to do.....

 

[1203sales]

berry, I know your family, I am going to have to go with Ugly

 

[Cam@strawberry]

1203 bout damn time someone on here speaks some truth!!! that is some accurate information right there ;-)

 

[BuckSnort]

shotgun1, do you have something to hide?

Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.

 

[Tree]

>For those who think Guides are
>not charged, i'd invite you
>too actually go find out
>what it costs to get
>a legit outfitters license, the
>insurance required by law to
>operate, along with permit fees
>to operate on a National
>forest.......ETC ETC......Oh it costs, it
>costs an arm and a
>leg to operate......Some of the
>stuff that has been posted
>is wholly inaccurate and in
>most cases ignorant. Not
>trying to be mean or
>disagreeable, just stating some simple
>fact.
>
>2ndly, There is no such thing
>as a 'shoot' on a
>guided hunt. It is
>harder to guide a guy
>too a quality animal than
>it is to hunt alone.
>
>
>3rdly for hossblur, farmed animals are
>not a direction that I
>would say MOST guides want
>to go. That is
>not hunting and it would
>remove the need for a
>guide for the most part.
>
>
>
>
>

>
>

I disagree with #2. I've been a part of, whether it be filming, guiding or hunting more than 50 guided hunts. Some were a "shoot" some were downright nasty, hard work. So generalizing any of it with blanket statements is a bit reckless. I've been with guides that are self involved ego-maniacal morons and I've been with guides that are second to none as people and as guides (They usually go hand in hand).

I think the biggest truth of this whole thing is that it's case by case. Take Utah LE elk for example, especially on a handful of units, is pretty close to farming animals. Does that mean it's a slam dunk? not often. But, there's a lot of mystery gone from hunting a lot of these animals and the philosophy behind management of this type is geared towards ranch like success rates, which to me is bastardizing what we love to do.

Guides bad? No, but they can be and there are guides that focus more on the bottom line that figure out how to make their buck easier to obtain, whether it be influencing game agencies through many means, the methodology used when guiding or simply the way they run their business, treating clients like cattle. Just like the rest of society, there's a myriad of differences, but I believe there should be more clearly defined lines to balance things and ensure that $$ doesn't completely dictate the outdoor experience.

Answer? Good, bad and ugly, but in my experience, mostly good.



http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org

 

[hossblur]

>For those who think Guides are
>not charged, i'd invite you
>too actually go find out
>what it costs to get
>a legit outfitters license, the
>insurance required by law to
>operate, along with permit fees
>to operate on a National
>forest.......ETC ETC......Oh it costs, it
>costs an arm and a
>leg to operate......Some of the
>stuff that has been posted
>is wholly inaccurate and in
>most cases ignorant. Not
>trying to be mean or
>disagreeable, just stating some simple
>fact.
>
>2ndly, There is no such thing
>as a 'shoot' on a
>guided hunt. It is
>harder to guide a guy
>too a quality animal than
>it is to hunt alone.
>
>
>3rdly for hossblur, farmed animals are
>not a direction that I
>would say MOST guides want
>to go. That is
>not hunting and it would
>remove the need for a
>guide for the most part.
>
>
>
>
>

>
>

Really? I watch a lot of hunting shows, almost all of them use guides/outfitters, many in high fence areas. Nearly half of the commericials are for deer attractants and specialized food and nutrition products for use on food plots. There are even shows about whitetail farming, and several about how to "ranch" for deer. So my question to you is if you fence it in, plow it every spring, and cultivate crops that you then feed to deer, how are you different from every other rancher who grows alphalfa to feed to cows, and if your not different aren't you simply farming wildlife? I don't see the difference, and a lot of these operations sell hunting. Hate to break it to you but I was right on the dot with this one!

 

[Cam@strawberry]

Very true hoss and what we see on tv definetly equates to a majority of outfitters and guides without a doubt.....the fifty shows that the outdoor channel has must be an accurate representation of how the whole world feels about it.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but if you fence it in, cultivate the ground, plow it and seed it. #1 you have a hell of a lot more money that I do, #2 You have a hell of a lot more ground than I do, #3 I probably need a job from you because your alot richer than I am.......and I guide.

Again Hoss I wasn't saying that it isn't out there I'm just saying that its not a direction MOST guides want to go thats all. I, am very possibly wrong and freely admit it though.

Whitetail Farms are a big business hoss but I would wager that for every 'farm' there are 10 legit businesses. And with that type of opinion hoss I sure hope you never ever sit a saltlick, use a man made pond, or any other type of 'attractent' to hunt.

Is there some pretty F'd up stuff in hunting?? yes absolutely both from guides, and DIY'ers. having the title of Guide doesn't make a man exempt from being a dueche, some of the absolute worst hunters and individuals I have ever encoutered while hunting have been DIY'ers who think they own the mountain, make the rules and are better than everyone else?? that sounds awful like the guides described above doesn't it? Kinda makes a guy think that maybe it isn't the title that makes him who he is maybe, just maybe its his personality. Guide or DIY he is just a dickhole.

And Believe me I have the stories to back that statement up.....

 

[we_B_huntin]

I don't have a problem with guides in fact I have friends that are guides and thier clients really appreciate them but to me hunting is a very personal thing and I don't want anybody telling me to fallow behind them while they lead me to an animal then tell me when to shoot. I also believe that high dollar hunting trickles down to everyone and is a big part of the reason that public draw tags have gotten so expensive.I know first hand where guides have gone onto public land and herded elk back onto private property they were guiding on and charging thousands to kill a big bull.

 

[NONYAMT]

I love the commercials,80% of the products they are selling are illegal in MT

 

[biggameballer]

Mostly GOOD.

 

[redrabbit]

>During this same hunt, I have
>to say I also met
>an outfitter out of Flag.
>that was the nicest, polite
>and courteous bunch you could
>hope to meet. They also
>scored four bulls, one may
>be the new # 3
>all time.


Did you meet Lance by chance?


You are welcome to visit my Photo Gallery here http://dougkoepsel.smugmug.com/

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

After reading all the comments I have to say that there is some truth to every statement made here. There is good, bad and ugly. Maybe I can shed a little light on the whole money making thing.

When I first started guiding I thought I was hot stuff with the title of "guide". I highly doubt that there is a "guide" out there that didn't think he was hot stuff to begin with. After 1 or 2 years and several humbling experiences I had to do something that every guide has to do at some point in their guiding career. I had to ask myself why I was doing it. As someone mentioned above, I was giving up my personal hunting time to "babysit" some high paying clients. I didn't have kids at the time but I did have a wife that wanted her fair share of my time. I was making $100 per day guiding plus tips which averaged about $300 on a 5 day hunt. So for 5 days, I made an average of $800. I would leave camp in the morning around 4:30-5:00 every day and return around 10:00. If we killed something I would be back in camp taking care of the game or delivering it to the meat packers. We would then head back out around 3:00 and be back in camp at around 8:00. Just figuring time in the field and not the work back in camp I averaged 10-11 hour days. So if you take $800 and divide that by 50 hours you have $16 an hour. That's not taking into account my own gas and the wear and tear on my own pesonal vehicle. Now I don't know about you boys but that's not "banking it" as some would have you believe. The only reason a person sticks around this business and is good at it is because they love it, not because they are making a great living.

Berry mentioned above that some people will criticize guides because of their own inferiority complex. I will turn that around and say this, the guides I know that have serious ego problems are generally the ones that even their paying clients can out hunt. There are, of course, those guides that are good at what they do and just have no humility to speak of.

Now, the difference between a guide and an outfitter is this:

Once I decided that I wanted to go out on my own and be an "outfitter" I took on a whole lot more responsibility. Now I was the one who fielded the complaints. I was the one paying $1000+ a year for liability insurance. I was the one paying for the public land permits ($100-$200) per area, I was the one who was booking the hunts, doing the shows ($1500-$3000 per booth per show + hotel and food), I was the one buying the grocieries for hunters ($175 per hunter for 5 days), I was the one supplying the tree stands and ground blinds, I was the one supplying all the fuel for scouting (average 125 gallons of fuel per hunter), I was the one paying for a web page, flyers, business cards etc., I was the one paying a camp cook and a guide per hunter, I was the one repairing equipment during and after the season, I was the one supplying wall tents and camp trailers as well as carrying insurance on all the equipment. When all was said and done, I made almost the same as a guide as I did as an outfitter, which was a hell of a lot less than I made at my regular job. I became an outfitter because I wanted to be able to choose who I guided, not because I was going to make a lot of money. I would dare say that aside from a few big outfitters, most of the little guys do it for the same reasons.

How many of you have rafted a river? Did you do it yourself or did you have a guide. I dare say that 90%, if not more, payed for a river guide. Not because you couldn't float that thing yourself, but because you wanted to get the most out of the experience and be safe. You didn't want the headache of hauling the raft yourself or be responsible for the food you ate on the river. You just wanted to enjoy the experience with our family. You could have stayed home and cooked your own steak and potatoes but you chose to go out and pay somebody else to do it. Does it cheapen the experience to hire somebody that knows what they are doing? Does it make the resteraunt owner or the river guide a bad person because he provides a service that people can do for themselves? It's all in perception and of course it's just my oppinion.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[coondog]

>They are fine but should only
>be able to operate on
>private land! My opinion!


do you also think that you should only hunt private land?

 

[hossblur]

Berry,

No I don't sit by man made ponds, don't sit by salt licks either. Also, if there are only only 50 shows that use the nutritional supplements the makers of the supplements would be out of buisness. Again if you feed it genetically enhanced feed, select out genetics that you find desirable how is a deer/elk any different from a cow or sheep? Whether you want to admit to it or not, it is the way it is heading. As to whether the guides want it that way or not, I would bet the vast majority are indifferent as long as it is legal, and as long as the client is happy.

My friend AWLOB, a restaraunt owner buys a place, buys the food, makes the food, markets the food. Most guides don't own the land, don't own the animals, don't have ANY financial stake in the animal UNTIL they are hired to kill it, not exactly apples to apples. As for a river guide, river guides are non consumptive so again not the same.

If guiding/outfitting is such a thankless, non financially rewarding job, why is most of northern Utah locked into CWMU's. Again, the average elk hunt in Utah is what about $7500+, and lasts 5 days. By my math your $1500 a day, even if you figure 15 hr days your at $100 per hour. Not bad money. Especially if you figure that as a guide your smart enough to scout not just for one animal but for all the animals in your area meaning that your scouting time (and cost associated with it) is spread out over numerous clients over a 4 month period. If you work 3 weeks out of the month, over 4 months thats 12 weeks lets be fair and say $5000 a week(average in deer and elk) thats $60000 for a season. The average wage in utah is somewhere between $35k and $40k for a whole year. Sorry fellas but there is a reason why guys like Doyle Moss don't have "day jobs". There is a reason why SFW puts on a show every year. There is a reason for the banquets, etc., there is a pile of money to be made and pretending like there isn't is just ridiculous. Again, the guides aren't evil. The ugly is that some dude looks at an elk(spidey) and thinks "thats worth $175,000+). When that line of recreation and tradition are crossed into "I killed the biggest", the sport as a whole loses out. And sorry again guys but hiring someone to find it, point it out, cut it, drag it, cook for you, house you, takes a lot out of what we do, and turns it into a shooting contest. Again, if your going to Alaska, sure a guide is useful. If you live in utah, and hunt in utah and you "have to have" a guide, seems pretty sad.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-05-11 AT 06:39AM (MST)[p]Hoss - in all the years I guided, I only guided one guy from Utah. Also, If you are a landowner and you are doing the guiding yourself on a CWMU then yes, you make some money. If you're like me and you buy/lease tags from the landowners then NO you do not make a lot of money. I payed an average of $6000 for the tags I guided. I charged anywhere from $7500-$8500 a hunt. Not a lot of money my friend. I guided a couple of auction tag holders but never charged over $4000 for the entire hunt. I did make a little money there but those were far and few between.

You need to recheck your math. I seriously doubt that even you think that if an elk hunt costs $7500, it's all profit?! Not even close. Hell, if it was that good I would still be outfitting on my own!!!!

It's always an adventure!!!

 

[nickman]

Whoever said "ignorance is bliss", must have been monitoring this site!

"whackin' a surly bartender ain't much of a crime"

 

[mightyhunter]

All of the above. I have been a guide, been on guided hunts and interacted with guides while hunting on my own on public land. My first experience involved a guided deer hunt on the Little Wood River in Idaho. A total disaster and waste of money. That guy is still in the business. A few years later, I went on some guided deer hunts in Montana. Essentially, I just paid a lot of money for hunting access to private lands, a guaranteed tag and the right to sleep in a dump. The Outfitter/Guide was a nice guy who was also disorganized, greedy and drank too much. I later guided for this guy for a few years and was not sad when we parted company. I couldn't take the dishonesty and the greed of it all. We were friends and now we aren't. Fast forward to NW Wyoming. All my interaction with guides in NW Wyoming has been in the field while I was out hunting on public land. In my opinion, many guides on horseback hunts here are just glorified road hunters who substitute a horse for a pickup truck. The prices charged for their hunts reflect the fact that nonresidents can't hunt the wilderness areas. I am amazed that they can get $ 3,000-$4,000 to shoot a 2 or 3 year old dink mule deer buck. They camp on migration trails in the National Forest and yell,glare,insult and scream at individuals who actually have hiked 4-8 miles back in to hunt DYI. Last year, a guide for the areas biggest outfitter passed me on horseback on a trail in the dark. Barely a word spoken (rude). A mile down the trail, I found his rifle scabbard with his rifle in it. I carried it for miles down the trail knowing he would be looking for it. I gave it too him and it was all he could do to talk to me. A few years ago, I ran into a television personality's sister who guides sheep hunters in the backcountry. She was very nice, cordial and I was impressed with her knowledge. I have run into the same television personality while he was guiding and he had none of her character traits. I have also run into Greg Turner and his wife. They are good people and knowledgeable hunters. Dominic Meade is also one of the good guys. From what I hear, they are the best guides in the whole area. I doubt I will ever use a guide or outfitter again. My general opinion is that the bad ones are more numerous than the good ones and that the bad ones give the good ones a bad name. I should also mention that most guided hunters have false expectations as to what they should expect on a guided hunt. They need to know how to field judge the animals they hunt. Relying on a guide to do this, can be a real disaster. They also need to know how to shoot quickly and accurately with the weapon they choose. All of this is just my opinion based on my observations.

 

[NONYAMT]

>>They are fine but should only
>>be able to operate on
>>private land! My opinion!
>
>
>do you also think that you
>should only hunt private land?
>
Nope but anyone making money off hunting should have to lease or own the place they do it on,that would solve most the outfitter problems,most of the outfitters that are worth a sh!t already do.

 

[wildsage]

Guides and outfitters have been with us for as long as I have been hunting. (50+ yrs) It just seems like there are more of them now and with the leasing of land it is making it more difficult to hunt private land that use to be open to us with permission. I don't hunt out of state but I would think it is very difficult to come into another state and only have a few days to learn the area. That is where a guide maybe could be of some help. The ones in this area that I have met are just hard working folks trying to make a living and I personally haven't had any problems with them. I don't use a guide so I can't say anything about their skills but the Outfitter/guides have leased alot of property that we use to get permission to hunt. Case in point, is Eastern Colorado. 15 years ago you could go there and ask the farmers to hunt and were able to get permission, now all or most of that land is tied up by outfitters. Our hunting now is all about the almighty $$ and I don't see anything changing anytime soon.

Wildsage

Locked in tite and out of range
Use to care but Things have Changed
Bob Dylan

 

[hossblur]

>LAST EDITED ON Jun-05-11
>AT 06:39?AM (MST)
>
>Hoss - in all the years
>I guided, I only guided
>one guy from Utah.
>Also, If you are a
>landowner and you are doing
>the guiding yourself on a
>CWMU then yes, you make
>some money. If you're
>like me and you buy/lease
>tags from the landowners then
>NO you do not make
>a lot of money.
>I payed an average of
>$6000 for the tags I
>guided. I charged anywhere
>from $7500-$8500 a hunt.
>Not a lot of money
>my friend. I guided
>a couple of auction tag
>holders but never charged over
>$4000 for the entire hunt.
> I did make a
>little money there but those
>were far and few between.
>
>
>You need to recheck your math.
> I seriously doubt that
>even you think that if
>an elk hunt costs $7500,
>it's all profit?! Not
>even close. Hell, if
>it was that good I
>would still be outfitting on
>my own!!!!
>
>It's always an adventure!!!


I doubt it is all profit, no buisness is. Curious as a side note did you pay taxes on the tips? I realize this is the chicken or the egg argument. I have a hard time believing that any guide, who still hunts for himself or his kids likes the direction things are heading as far as locked up areas and unbelievable prices. I don't blame you for defending yourself, but you said so yourself, you didn't make much. Taking that into consideration, how are you going to get your kids/grandkids into hunting when access is horrible and the costs are huge?

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Fair questions hoss - yes, I paid taxes on everything I made including tips. I'm not thrilled with the way things are going. Especially in Utah. I am, however, fortunate to have the ability to make a good living outside of hunting and so, I choose to take my kids out of state while playing the point game in Utah. There are some amazing opportunities in other states for youth and mentoring. I really hope that we can continue to have the opportunity to hunt when I have grandkids. But if the cost keeps going up I will bite the bullet to keep hunting. Where there's a will there is always a way.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[1911]

I think the worst cause and effect in Utah for costs going through the ceiling was the birth of the CWMU. These programs are a double edged sword. While they do provide low cost opportunity to 15% of the tags, they made the other 85% much more marketable from a logistical standpoint with expanded dates and relaxed guidelines. I think it resulted in a net loss in terms of affordability of private land hunting.

As a disclaimer I have had a really good opportunity on a CWMU. If I was a landowner, I would opt into the program in a New York Minute. As an outsider, it has priced me right out of land tracts that I used to be able to readily afford. It has nothing to do with guides directly other than it gives management the extra time required to guide each and every tag they dispense.

 

[coondog]

>>>They are fine but should only
>>>be able to operate on
>>>private land! My opinion!
>>
>>
>>do you also think that you
>>should only hunt private land?
>>
>Nope but anyone making money off
>hunting should have to lease
>or own the place they
>do it on,that would solve
>most the outfitter problems,most of
>the outfitters that are worth
>a sh!t already do.

they do have to pay to guide on gov land.

 

[hossblur]

>I think the worst cause and
>effect in Utah for costs
>going through the ceiling was
>the birth of the CWMU.
> These programs are a
>double edged sword. While
>they do provide low cost
>opportunity to 15% of the
>tags, they made the other
>85% much more marketable from
>a logistical standpoint with expanded
>dates and relaxed guidelines.
>I think it resulted in
>a net loss in terms
>of affordability of private land
>hunting.
>
>As a disclaimer I have had
>a really good opportunity on
>a CWMU. If I
>was a landowner, I would
>opt into the program in
>a New York Minute.
>As an outsider, it has
>priced me right out of
>land tracts that I used
>to be able to readily
>afford. It has nothing
>to do with guides directly
>other than it gives management
>the extra time required to
>guide each and every tag
>they dispense.
>

yup!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[coondog]

hoss

i can get my kid a $ 35 archery deer tag in utah and go hunt anywhere i want (that is not private).he could care less about where he hunts or how much it cost .. moss back guiding a high dollar guy on the henrys or ai doesn't affect me or my kid in the least! only jealous people are affected by people who do what they can't .

 

[MeatMissile]

I am fine with guides. They do a lot of good for the industry. But I do get tired of hearing people complain about how other people use their private land. It is their private land and they have the right to allow you to hunt there or not. Who cares if they sell the rights to an outfitter. It's their decision and if they are unhappy with it, than they can contact you. All of the farmers who I have talked to (that have their land leased out) sure don't mind a little bit of extra cash in their pockets. If I want to make decisions about land use, I will buy the land first. Thank God for a free country!

 

[piper]

"guides do a lot for the industry" I guess that says it all, hunting is just an industry to some people.

 

[MeatMissile]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-11 AT 10:12AM (MST)[p]Not what I meant, but oh well. I realize many of them suck, but there are a lot that have done great things for wildlife conservation and sportsmens rights. Even though all of these things are an industry of their own.

 

[NONYAMT]

Good for you,we have guides droppin their clients off on every little piece of public/state land we can access and trying everything in the book to run all non paying customers off the places we have hunted forever.Im not jealous,im fed up.

 

[hossblur]

>hoss
>
>i can get my kid a
>$ 35 archery deer tag
>in utah and go hunt
>anywhere i want (that is
>not private).he could care less
>about where he hunts or
>how much it cost ..
>moss back guiding a high
>dollar guy on the henrys
>or ai doesn't affect me
>or my kid in the
>least! only jealous people are
>affected by people who do
>what they can't .


Yeah, but look at the map of the state, most of N. utah is locked up. Can you keep buying those tags? The big money keeps pushing the state to keep LE ing the state and cutting tags to accomplish some statewide trophy unit. In the next few years when your kid doesn't draw, lets see how you feel about it.

 

[sageadvice]

"But I do get tired of hearing people complain about how other people use their private land. It is their private land and they have the right to allow you to hunt there or not. Who cares if they sell the rights to an outfitter."

Who cares? Regular Joe Hunter, who will no longer be allowed to hunt the property, cares!

I remember when there was just a handful of guys that went outa state and for the most, hunted with permission on or based on someone's private ranch. It wasn't about the $800-$1000. that the whole trip costs as much as it was about "the call of the hunt". Then after a few years seemed everybody was packing their gear and heading out on the Muley trail. Now again, it's getting to be less popular and way more expensive. I don't see the end of this, it'll never again be anywhere near the way it was...I'm getting priced out of the game, and i for one, care!

This ain't the guides fault. It's the whole industry created by Johnny come lately who wants bigger bucks on his wall than his neighbor has. Money talks, yes, and the outfitters are only filling an apparent need. Those Regular Joes that live near National Forest or BLM and have access to easy tags and good hunting on those lands, count your blessings!

Joey

 

[NONYAMT]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-11 AT 09:33PM (MST)[p]We live near many of these spots,problem is they are now COVERED with guides/outfiters who are too cheap to lease private land,instead they give unknowing clients a halfass hunt on pieces of public they could have hunted on their own for free(many of them figure this out).So now we have the guides AND previous years clients hitting all the good ole spots that used to hold game,not no more,shot out and overun,the outfitters are Ruining hunting for the guys who cant afford to hunt private.Its all about the dollar and they dont care who they run over in the process,most of these guides dont even hunt,they are "cowboys" who cant stand the idea of a real job.-----> guides and outfitters with a chip on your shoulder now add your post about how hard it is being a guide and how many hours you put in and BLA BLA BLA,heard it all ,dont care.Im just grateful to live in a state where the people are slowly putting outfitters back in their place and are more concerned about the hunting heritage than putting more money in outfitters pockets.

 

[MeatMissile]

I'm probably less than your regular Joe but absolutely love to hunt. And guess what, I have never had a problem getting permission to hunt private land. And sure as heck since moving to Colorado have not had a problem finding shooter animals on public land. And unfortunately we do not own the private land you are speaking of, so we have no right to tell people what to do. Money talks. It's a sad truth. Yea the animals might not be 200" bucks (yet) and maybe not a 300" bull, but the experience is great if you work for it.

 

[NONYAMT]

Heres a sample of the tactics they use around here,one POS outfitter from the Swan valley shows up over here every fall and posts little home made signs on all the state land they use,the year before this sign they had one up saying you HAD to have a GPS to hunt this piece of land as the boundries are unmarked and being watched by the F&G,the year before that the SOB put up signs saying hunting for mule deer bucks was closed on state land...both signs had cut and paste MT F&G logos on the bottom,we took these signs down the first two years and delivered them to a game warden,nothing was done and they reappeared within a few days,last year we took them down several times,they post new ones every damn day.They will do anything they can to make people unsure of the property and keep them away,the F&G knows its going on and wont do a damn thing about it,the warden in this area is absolutely worthless.I have had several face to face altercations with this particular outfit and they are a bunch of punks,they threaten to call the sheriff until you offer to do it for them then they load up and take off.If you dont have to deal with this sh!t consider yourself lucky.

 

[MeatMissile]

Yea that sounds like a bad situation. Not sure what I would do about that there. Escalate it to the next level if the warden will not do anything about it. If you do know the boundaries... heck the signs might limit the other traffic that would be coming in there.

But I can see how that would be a sucky situation that could easily ruin the fun of an entire season.

 

[MeatMissile]

I'm also just being the devils advocate in this thread. I cannot stand most of the stuff that goes on out there.

 

[Zeke]

I have always viewed your comments as though they were coming from a grizz with a tooth ache! Now I know why you're so pee'd off about the whole "industry"! You have some hot turds to deal with in your neck-o-the-woods!
Sorry you have to deal with that crap! You shouldn't have to if the fish cop would do his job and set them straight.

Lucky for most of us this stuff is rare(?).
Zeke

 

[NONYAMT]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-11 AT 04:16PM (MST)[p]Believe it or not its just the tip of the iceburg,these SOBs have reported us as being trespassing off the state land when we were nowhere near the boundary,they have slashed tires,they will intentionally spook game you are stalking,I have watched them looking at us through rifle scopes,the list goes on and on.On top of all this we have a worthless warden in that area whos answer to the situation was to tell us to tell them to F off.. This winter we talked to a sergeant here in Helena who seems willing to help,he was aware there was a situation up there but thought it had been dealt with,he told us to call him directly next time we run into them and to photograph as many faces and liscence plates as possible.I have made an honest effort to take this to the next level with them twice,both times I was outnumbered and they still backed off like the cowards they are.I had a face to face shouting match with one of them right in front of his 4 clients one time after he walked right up on an open point to spook the bedded buck I was stalking,then he tried to tell me he was hoping to spook it towards me as a favor...they didnt seem to impressed,ill bet they wernt return customers.I think these particular "guides" are actually from WY working for an outfitter out of Swan River who leases a house near Augusta for them to stay in while they hunt every little piece of state land in the area,its ridiculous.You can never get a name from them,even when you offer your own,the last two years they havnt been using the magnetic door signs they used to have with the outfitters business name on it.I have actually been sending anyone of my friends who wants to kill a deer to these spots hoping they will eventually run out of customers when they realize they are hunting public land covered with locals.Im sure I161 will put a dent in their operation because they had nothing to offer besides tags,they dont hunt anything thats not state land and they dont get more than a mile from the main road,they put their clients up on points and let them bang away at migrating herds of elk ad deer when the snow flys in the back country,I have found several dead elk in the brush piles that Im ure they wounded and lost/left.One good friend of mine wont hunt with me in this area any more because hes a SF vet with 23 years in the field and after one encounter with them he was sure he was going to kill one of them who was watching us through his rifle scope from 300 yards away while he had binos around his neck,that day got ugly.Ive got a tooth ache all right,this outfit and two others like them in this area have completely ruined what used to be a wonderful place to hunt,you could take kids and women up there and get them on an easy deer within an easy drag to the road,when the snow gets deep you had a good chance at a good buck and a freezer full of elk meat,not no more.I hate to hunt these places any more because eventually Im going to end up in jail and Im tired of having good days turn sour after they show up for their afternoon shift and drop off a pile of clients to stumble around and spook everything back onto the surrounding private,they give them a tour in the morning and then drop them off to hunt alone in the afternoon.As I said before if you havnt had to deal with this BS you should consider yourself lucky and you have no idea how infuriating it can be.RANT OVER MUST GO OUTSIDE AND KICK DOG(kidding)

 

[Zeke]

On a lighter note:

"if you're wondering who loves you more, lock your wife and your dog in the trunk of the car for an hour. When you open it see which one is happy to see you!"


With that said, DON"T kick your dog! haha

Zeke

 

[TOPGUN]

Too bad you don't have an officer with any balls to take care of that crowd. In 1994 I paid $2500 for a guided mule deer hunt on horseback with what is now the biggest outfitter in Wyoming. The hunt went fine and I was impressed with the area until I got good maps and found out that almost all of the 100,000 acre ranch they had me on was leghally accessible BLM property. I started hunting north of there on BLM for a few years and then decided to take a couple buddies down on that ranch where it was legal. We weren't 100 yards from the truck and a guy pulled up with the outfitters sign on the door and proceeded to grill us like he was a traffic cop until I got tired of it and told him I knew exactly where I was and where we were going. He then said they didn't even hunt that area it was so bad and I aksed him waht his problem was then and told him that was funny since I had paid his boss big bucks to hunt right where we were going. Then he said that if we went in there he would go get his horse and "cowboy up" and follow us all over. Then I really got pissed and told him if he screwed us up it would all be documented on my videocam and he would be cited for hunter harrassment. With that he left, but the other two guys didn't want the hassle and we ended up going to where I normally hunt now. A couple days later a party of hunters we were talking to told me the same story about the guy running them off what they knew was legal BLM land and they had notified the Game Warden. I know the guy well, decided to press the issue, and called Tom about the problem. He asked that I file a written complaint, which I did, and with that complaint and the other guys similar statements he visited the outfitter and issued a warning that any more complaints of that type that were filed against him would lead to revocation of his outfitting license for the entire state of Wyoming. From that day on there have been no problems with them and I still go into the legal parts of that ranch for free where they are now charging $4,000 for a 5 day deer hunt! If I were you I would press the issue you are having with those jerks all the way to the top and even contact my legislators or whomever it takes to get that bunch taken care of. Does your state have a hunter harrassment law like Wyoming and a good many other states have now passed to deal with situations like you are describing?

 

[NONYAMT]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-11 AT 05:46PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-11 AT 05:41 PM (MST)

Sorry to say that the MT outfitter ass. has MANY of the legislators,wardens and F&G commissioners in their pocket,one way or another.Its real hard to find anyone with any power to do anything about an outfitter here.Yes we have the same law,lot of good it does, I have filed several reports of hunter harassment,was basically told that if there wasnt a neutral witness or a warden witness it would never stand in court.Im praying that this fall they wont even be around with I161,but the other two outfits have leased killer pieces of privte in the area and Im sure they arnt going anywhere.They arnt as bad as this bunch but nearly,they go into the state before light on horseback/4 wheeler and push the elk down into the hayfields where their clients can massacre them,they killed 14 mature bulls opening morning 2010 in one field,2 smaller bulls were later "found" by said outfitter who reported to the F&G that someone snuck on the place,killed the bulls and left them.I know damn well they were killed by clients and left because there were bigger bulls on the ground.My vehicle was given as a possible interest since I was parked on the adjoining state land.Me and a complete stranger I met on the mountain both killed small bulls that morning and packed them out,the stranger looked me up 2 weeks later at my place of work and told me the whole story.When he stopped at the game check station in Augusta he was told this his and my vehicles were being sought out as possible poachers after the the outfitter made his report.Later he came back to tell me the next story,the outfitters found the remains of our 2 bulls on the mountain,we both boned out the elk and packed the meat out,the outfitter reported finding two bulls killed with only the antlers taken the day after,the f&g contacted him to get his side of the story since they had his information from the game check.We even packed out the nut sacks just to make sure we were legal as far as proof of sex,once again he and I were suspects.I never heard a word from the F&G over the matter so they must not believe a word this POS says.Nobody would sneak into the place,its all visible from the main road and you would never get away with it.Two years ago they left a dead calf laying over their fence where it tried to jump out of the hayfield for days,obviously wounded in one of their shoot outs,I see them all the time in their cowboy outfits not wearing any orange while hunting(illegal),they drive across state land with wheelers,ect,ect,ect Some day that warden will get replaced by someone who will do his job,until then we just have to put up with their sh!t.I still hunt there just to spite them,they see me siting up on the mountain every year on opening day and I know it just pisses them off that they dont have any legal way to keep us out of the country,it provides a small amount of satisfaction,esp when they see a nice buck or bull loaded in my rig and they see dollar signs going down the road,thats all they give a sh!t about.

 

[Elk375]

I have been both a guide and a client and I have little use for outfitters. There are good ones, bad ones and criminals.

There is a company in Missoula, Montana that makes chips for GPS units called HuntingGPSmaps.com. They have maps of all the public lands in the western states on 2G micro chips. The chips are $100 per state. I have the Montana map and last Sunday was using it in an area where an outfitter, 2 years ago told us we were on private land. With my GPS unit I was able to find the section corner caps and the variance was less than 2 feet. On one survey cap the variance was less than 6 inches. I called the company this Monday morning and talked with a tech rep telling him how accurate the maps were. He said that the Montana maps are very accurate. I would always find several section corners in the area I was hunting to make sure the maps and the GPS unit were calibrated together.

On the exact place that I was told was private and our license plate numbers were going to be given to game warden. My GPS indicated I was on Forest Service land. I walk 100 yards over a small rise and found the survey cap and Forest Service signs indicating the that the land in back of the sign was Forest Service land. When this incident happened the Forest Service signs had been moved foreward indicating that we were on private lands. Today the signs are gone. I talked with the Forest Service and they knew signs were being moved and taken down but with limited manpower little could be done.

The outdoor section of the Billings Gazette said that game wardens were using a GPS with the same map. I would always use the bread crumb trail when hunting and have a BLM or Forest Service map with me. If ever confronted again, I will take pictures of the outfitters licence plate number and file a complaint.

 

[NONYAMT]

I have their program in my Garmin Oregon,its a powerful tool in the fight against POS outfitters and land owners who try to keep yo off public land.I have found MANY pieces of public with posted gates and orange painted poles using this program,more than likly posted orange by these same morons.

 

[m_freeman]

I don't use them but, if someone wants to use them fine. I would like to see the licensing protection rackets disappear for these guys also. My big complaint about the outfitters is the sale of land owner tags of public assets! Why does a connected and protected firm and private party get to sell a public asset? The land owner tags should be in with the rest of the public tags as it is a public asset being hunted. The public interest in the asset on the private property needs to be fairly considered in the solution for the trespass fee. The way it is now, ripoff the public, hoooray for the salesman and the landowner, just not right.

 

[NONYAMT]

Its a welfare system,plain and simple.