"Founder's Bill" dead in the 2018 Session

jm77

jm77

Long Time Member
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HB 05 met it's maker this session, paving the way for more giant deer and other trophy animal locations to be offered on the internet and other hunting forums for a price.

Wyoming BHA, in the form of BuzzH, opposed "Founder's Bill" as written in the House TRW Committee hearing. BHA supports a total ban on the sale of wildlife information with no exclusions and asked the exclusions be struck. TRW passed the bill out of committee to it's certain death.

I'm sure it will be back next session, in a more pure form.
 
$$$
37205hornkiller.jpg
 
Yes it did. I had been watching its progress. Made it to committee with a 40-20 vote for it. Then seen the 7-2 vote on recommend to pass. Placed on general file and got derailed from there. So the exclusion language of having to be an outfitter to sell locations doomed it. I was wondering when the language was first introduced.
 
>Yes it did. I had
>been watching its progress.
>Made it to committee with
>a 40-20 vote for it.
> Then seen the 7-2
>vote on recommend to pass.
> Placed on general file
>and got derailed from there.
>So the exclusion language of
>having to be an outfitter
>to sell locations doomed it.
> I was wondering when
>the language was first introduced.
>

Why would any outfitter in their right mind, sell locations when they can sell the whole hunt anyway? Including the exclusions in the bill, legitimizes the practice. The whole reason to ban this is the ethics involved. Why would it be ok simply because you have a license or own land?
 
I don't think the way the Bill got worded had anything to do with existing outfitters that do guided hunts for big money and wouldn't sell information. IMHO since outfitters and guides have to be licensed they worded the Bill so that selling of information would somehow be able to be fit right into the existing Act requiring licensing for outfitters. I may be totally off base, but that's my thoughts on it.
 
Why would any outfitter in their right mind, sell locations when they can sell the whole hunt anyway? Including the exclusions in the bill, legitimizes the practice. The whole reason to ban this is the ethics involved. Why would it be ok simply because you have a license or own land?
Maybe because $1500 is better than Zero? I'm sure they would rather have 5k.
 
>I don't think the way the
>Bill got worded had anything
>to do with existing outfitters
>that do guided hunts for
>big money and wouldn't sell
>information. IMHO since outfitters
>and guides have to be
>licensed they worded the Bill
>so that selling of information
>would somehow be able to
>be fit right into the
>existing Act requiring licensing for
>outfitters. I may be
>totally off base, but that's
>my thoughts on it.

Not sure what you are trying to say here Mike. You got me...
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-18 AT 08:00PM (MST)[p]>Not sure what you are trying
>to say here Mike. You
>got me...

(iv) Any other outfitting or professional guide
7 services provided in accordance with W.S. 23-2-406 through
8 23-2-418.

I was trying to say that the Bill excluded outfitter and guides under that (iv) subsection above from being illegal. If the Bill had passed anyone who wants to sell information would have to apply and get licensed as a guide or outfitter or they would be in violation of the Bill. It did not outright make it illegal to do what Founder and others are doing if they got licensed. It would be a loophole so that they could keep doing what they're doing and we don't want anyone to sell information no matter who they are.
 
>And there gonna moniter that how
>exactly ????


Same way poachers are monitored. Or scab contractors. Or any other "business"

Tips, reports, etc. Then its up to whether there are enough teeth in the penalties to make it worth it to run illegal.



From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Good it was a stupid bill to a problem that is nonexistent. I mean really do you think it really had any effect on trophy quality? No. Did it really violate or change fair chase? No.

Sorry but this was a silly bill and something that is totally unnecessary. After all if some one is willing to pay me money to find out where I saw a buck in July, then so be it...
 
How about the night before the opener? Or, 2 minutes before it?.


I listened to a local outfitter on Jay Scott. Dude has 135 trail cams, almost exclusively on one unit. So it fair chase if he is watching them on the laptop, talking to you on a sat phone because you bought info?

Not saying that's what Founder is doing. But how else to you differentiate between what he does and what someone else does unless you simply stop the entire practice?

Note: the reason Founder thinks WYOGA went after him, I think is true.

Just don't think either should be doing it.


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
>How about the night before the
>opener? Or, 2 minutes
>before it?.
>
>
>I listened to a local outfitter
>on Jay Scott. Dude
>has 135 trail cams, almost
>exclusively on one unit.
>So it fair chase if
>he is watching them on
>the laptop, talking to you
>on a sat phone because
>you bought info?
>
>Not saying that's what Founder is
>doing. But how else
>to you differentiate between what
>he does and what someone
>else does unless you simply
>stop the entire practice?
>
>Note: the reason Founder thinks WYOGA
>went after him, I think
>is true.
>
>Just don't think either should be
>doing it.
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.


Kind thinking the same way here....Huge Outfitter In NV and Utah has guides on animals pretty much all year, I know one...How?s that different?

It's gotten crazy now, the way it is...Hunting season, Shed season, Scouting season...Animals are getting run all year long...


'Ike'

Bowhunter...
 
The idea is solid, but the legislation wasn't.

If we're going to ban the activity, you don't do that by legitimizing the practice in Statute.

It needs to be against the law for everyone, no carve-outs for outfitters, guides, resident guides, etc.

Clean legislation is the key, or it just muddies everything up.
 
That's fine, but just curious! Who?s going to enforce it and how? Most agencies, WY included are stretched thin as is...Happen stance maybe? How many outfitters in Wyoming, employing how many guides, not to mention whoever else?

Good luck with it!

'Ike'

Bowhunter...
 
Your assumption is guides and website owners wouldn't follow the law?

They are doing what is legal, mostly I believe, is because tech advances faster than laws.

They can't catch every poacher. Can catch every guy who shoots too early or too late. Doesn't mean we just don't have game laws.

The proposal the way it was written was guides going after Founder, you think they won't turn each other on?


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-18 AT 06:35PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-18 AT 06:32?PM (MST)

This seems so triveal from the outside.
Selling coordinates...... who would buy this chit?!

Here is Another freebie. Mark the highest 3 spots in your unit. There are your August coordinates. Stuff is almost comical.

And just for the record... i think Any and All that are trying to make $$$ off of the privatization of wildlife need to find a new source of income.

Thousands of honorable professions in the world Spaz. Take one up :eek:

WE are ok allowing outfitters to pick up clients from the helipad while the ?gang? sits on the mountain with the buck/bull scoped up and ?located?.

WE are ok that BIG WHEELS is in poor health so will need his rifle, spotting scope and lunch carried up the hill. The rifle, I mean long range missile launcher the ?gang? assembled AND sighted in for him (BIG WHEELS bought the FULL CIRCLE PACKAGE!) is heavy. And the rear sandbag, yep, gotta have it - meshes oh so perfectly with a Swivel TRIPOD!!!!

All others be damned. Long range school fatigue, broke back mules, nothing can stop him$$$!!!

Patience is paramount, this will take time.

All the hard work....
Sweating thru the long range school...
It has been exhausting but sooooo rewarding all in the same grasp of air...

But WAIT?! The buck has moved???
The coordinates have changed...

LMFAO

Until WE get the money $$$ out of the game the craziness will not go away.

And Buzz is 100% on getting this completely wiped vs giving the outfitters a monopoly on it.
Good luck to all other then big wheels in 2018.
 
Exactly SteveE. Why is it ok for someone to scout during the year, then when I pay them $8500 they pick me up from the airport, pack my fatbutt up to the basin on a horse, point out the buck to me, tell me when to shoot, give me a high five when I hit it in the back quarters, walk up and take 500 trophy pics with me and my 12 best "friends", quarter it out, throw it on the horse, and pack me and my trophy back down the hill?

Compared to the same guy scouting during the summer, I pay him $1000 dollars and he tells me where he saw the deer and how he would hunt it?

I honestly don't see why anybody would ban outfitters from doing that when they do way more as it is? I can understand trying to get it shutdown so individuals can't do it because that is competition for the outfitters.
 
You guys need to read the Bill as it is written. The Bill, as written, exempted outfitters, guides, and land owners. Therefore, it's assumed if the Bill had been passed it would have required people like Founder to apply for an outfitter or guide license and then he could continue doing it legally if it had passed. Anyone who was not licensed, as it says at the end of the Bill, would be violating the law. Most of us discussing this would like selling any information no matter who it might be whether they are licensed outfitter or guides to be illegal.
 
>You guys need to read the
>Bill as it is written.
> The Bill, as written,
>exempted outfitters, guides, and land
>owners. Therefore, it's assumed
>if the Bill had been
>passed it would have required
>people like Founder to apply
>for an outfitter or guide
>license and then he could
>continue doing it legally if
>it had passed. Anyone
>who was not licensed, as
>it says at the end
>of the Bill, would be
>violating the law. Most
>of us discussing this would
>like selling any information no
>matter who it might be
>whether they are licensed outfitter
>or guides to be illegal.
>

I totally understand what happened and what you, buzz, and jm want. Is what I don't understand is why an outfitter can do everything for a hunter including wipe the hunters butt but selling the location is a no no? He can hold your hand and do everything except pull the trigger. But he can't sell the location that buck is in unless he is there to hold your hand? That kinda sounds like the wilderness law. You can't hunt it unless you pay an outfitter to hold your hand.

Unless you guys are also trying to ban outfitting? Which I haven't heard about but I don't read everything. And it would be kinda funny if you are against outfitting since I believe you used an outfitter a couple years ago didn't you Topgun?
 
>The idea is solid, but the
>legislation wasn't.
>
>If we're going to ban the
>activity, you don't do that
>by legitimizing the practice in
>Statute.
>
>It needs to be against the
>law for everyone, no carve-outs
>for outfitters, guides, resident guides,
>etc.
>
>Clean legislation is the key, or
>it just muddies everything up.
>

Thanks for the response Buzz.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-18 AT 08:58PM (MST)[p]>I totally understand what happened and
>what you, buzz, and jm
>want. Is what I don't
>understand is why an outfitter
>can do everything for a
>hunter including wipe the hunters
>butt but selling the location
>is a no no? He
>can hold your hand and
>do everything except pull the
>trigger. But he can't sell
>the location that buck is
>in unless he is there
>to hold your hand? That
>kinda sounds like the wilderness
>law. You can't hunt it
>unless you pay an outfitter
>to hold your hand.
>
>Unless you guys are also trying
>to ban outfitting? Which I
>haven't heard about but I
>don't read everything. And it
>would be kinda funny if
>you are against outfitting since
>I believe you used an
>outfitter a couple years ago
>didn't you Topgun?

We aren't trying to outlaw outfitting/guiding and, yes, I did a guided mule deer hunt on horseback in Region G in 2015 and one other one in the Big Horns back in 1994 out of necessity for lack of horses to do them any other way. This Bill was aimed at people like Founder that are selling information for a profit without any guidelines or licensing like all outfitters and guides other than on their own deed property are required to have. The Bill exempted outfitters and guides to give guys like Founder an out because if it had been passed Founder could continue doing what he's doing by applying and getting a license through the state of Wyoming. None of us are fans of WYOGA by any means! However, I can fully understand why an outfitter that has to spend a fortune on licensing, insurance, taxes, etc. to stay in operation would not want people to be funneled to his assigned hunt permit area by someone like Founder that isn't on an equal basis with him. I hope that helps ease your confusion that you have on this issue. Very few of us agree with the the selling of information since it is just another negative in the way hunting is going and has become an "industry" contrary to what us older guys grew with and the real reason to be outdoors.
 
>>You guys need to read the
>>Bill as it is written.
>> The Bill, as written,
>>exempted outfitters, guides, and land
>>owners. Therefore, it's assumed
>>if the Bill had been
>>passed it would have required
>>people like Founder to apply
>>for an outfitter or guide
>>license and then he could
>>continue doing it legally if
>>it had passed. Anyone
>>who was not licensed, as
>>it says at the end
>>of the Bill, would be
>>violating the law. Most
>>of us discussing this would
>>like selling any information no
>>matter who it might be
>>whether they are licensed outfitter
>>or guides to be illegal.
>>
>
>I totally understand what happened and
>what you, buzz, and jm
>want. Is what I don't
>understand is why an outfitter
>can do everything for a
>hunter including wipe the hunters
>butt but selling the location
>is a no no? He
>can hold your hand and
>do everything except pull the
>trigger. But he can't sell
>the location that buck is
>in unless he is there
>to hold your hand? That
>kinda sounds like the wilderness
>law. You can't hunt it
>unless you pay an outfitter
>to hold your hand.
>
>Unless you guys are also trying
>to ban outfitting? Which I
>haven't heard about but I
>don't read everything. And it
>would be kinda funny if
>you are against outfitting since
>I believe you used an
>outfitter a couple years ago
>didn't you Topgun?

No, you certainly don't understand what I want and apparently a lot of other things also.
 
This is one of those bills where a person like me really cant lose...

If it eventually passes, scouting services are sent packing. If it doesn't pass, then the scouting services undercut an outfitter and takes their clients away.

That's a win-win no matter which way it goes.

To frost the cake, the outfitters and scouting services both burn political capitol and waste time and energy on it.
 
No outfitting/guiding on public land?

Oh but wait, then all wilderness would by default be resy only...hmmmm....
 
I'm the only guy that's ever "wiped my butt".

Been on a few guided hunts, and plan to do more as I age.

I guess that makes me "fat and lazy".

You guys crack me up with your "I'm better than you because I do it the right way".

That's exactly what it boils down to, no matter what twist you put on it. Maybe the thin air at the top is getting to your brains...

It's easy to criticize something you've never done. Liberals do it daily when they criticize hunting and try to put a stop to it( among other things).

I don't need to justify my reasons to anyone. Last I checked, this is still the USA, and we still have the freedom to do what we want as long as it doesn't hurt someone else.

I opposed this bill as it was written because it favored the outfitters over anyone else. Period. Other than that, I liked the thought behind the bill.

The way I choose to hunt is MY BUSINESS. If you don't like it...TOO BAD.
 
Buzz, so are your basically saying your anti guiding/outfitting/scouting on public lands?
 
A business that tries to make bank by harvesting a limited, public shared resource, on public land is a bad business model. Period.

Providing one party advantages for the exchange of money while the poor peasants play by a different set of rules will be ended through mass social media.

Ethics now has a louder voice then the board. If they don't change they seriously risk becoming the bully nobody will play with and eventually irrelevant to the discussion.

You want to make a bunch of money baby sitting a $client$ on PRIVATE land then have at it but GUIDING on public land will become packing/outfitting services only by law imo. Change is coming...
 

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