Focus on the pin or the target?

[ONHunter]

The post about one eye vs. two, and a t.v. show featuring a rifle sharp shooter got me thinking about this again. I've heard the theory that you must focus on the spot where you want to hit the target (animal). I wonder if the terms "focus" and "concentrate" get interchanged in this discussion. I don't doubt that instictive (bare bow) shooters focus on the target, because what else is there to look at? I was trained in the Army to focus on the front post when shooting the M-16 peep, and the sharp shooter in the show said to focus on the cross hairs of the scope (similar concepts I'd guess). In both cases you have to let the target go a bit fuzzy. I've always used the pin, and done fine so far. Then again, I shoot everything right handed and I'm left eye dominant, so go figure. Has anybody tried this both ways when shooting a bow?

 

[canhunter]

Fully on pin at time of release. Get it close then totally focus on pin. I think shooting with sights is the same regardless of firearm or bow. JMO

 

[EdleBrock]

>> I think shooting with sights is the same regardless of firearm or bow.

Absolutely...follow through is the same also...

 

[ONHunter]

Thanks guys,

I'd just swear that I'd heard and read that some shooters let the pin go fuzzy, and concentrate on the target. I just never bought into it.

 

[swbuckmaster]

If you were throwing a ball you don't look at your hand.

If you are seeing your pin, than you are not aiming? you cannot focus on your pin and the spot at the same time. Its like watching a baseball game through a chain link fence? you don't see the fence.

Here is a different take if you are focused on your pin you will see more movement. You want to be focus on the spot you want to hit. Your bow will always have some movement. If you let your shot happen without fighting your movement your subconscious mind can take over and you will still end up in the middle.

I hope this makes sense I used to be a land surveyor. When I was going to school they would teach you to pick a long back sight to sight with there scope, because if you were off a little bit on a short back sight the error would be magnified the farther that line was projected.

 

[ajensen83]

I have to disagree with the last post... although I am new to archery I have shot rifles and pistols for years.. with a pistol your always should focus on pin... the target should be fuzzy... I started out shooting archery by focusin on the target and after I switched to focusing on the pin and it has made me much more accurate... if you focus on the target you have a much harder time looking at the sight frame and making sure that you are centering the sight target in the middle of your peep.. it also allows your sight pin to become fuzzy and you will hit high or low and you wont be able to tell... focus on your pin..

 

[Lien2]

Without a doubt focus on the target!!! How do you expect to hit something at longer ranges (say 50 yards) if you're concentrating on something that's 3'away from you? It won't happen.........or it might, but not with very good accuracy. This is what almost all of the top archery shooters do, BUT to each their own.

Lien2

 

[BOHNTR]

When I draw on an animal, 3D target, Vegas style target, or any other type of target, my main focus is on the target at the time of release. My secondary vision (focus), if you will, is on my pin. It's worked for me for many years.

BOHNTR )))---------->

 

[COLO3D]

>If you were throwing a ball
>you don't look at your
>hand.
>
>If you are seeing your pin,
>than you are not aiming?
>you cannot focus on your
>pin and the spot at
>the same time. Its like
>watching a baseball game through
>a chain link fence? you
>don't see the fence.
>
>Here is a different take if
>you are focused on your
>pin you will see more
>movement. You want to be
>focus on the spot you
>want to hit. Your bow
>will always have some movement.
>If you let your shot
>happen without fighting your movement
>your subconscious mind can take
>over and you will still
>end up in the middle.
>
>
>I hope this makes sense I
>used to be a land
>surveyor. When I was going
>to school they would teach
>you to pick a long
>back sight to sight with
>there scope, because if you
>were off a little bit
>on a short back sight
>the error would be magnified
>the farther that line was
>projected.


I completely agree!

 

[Outdoordan]

Focus on target! You should be burning holes in the spot you want to hit, this allows your subconscious to control all other functions of the shot. This was how the archery coach taught me as well.

 

[EdleBrock]

I guess I'll will have to disagree on this, but I will say that what works for one might not work for the other.

But here's my take that I formed from several firearms instructors.

The weapon, whether firearm or bow or spit ball shooter is a single unit, from the projectile, to the barrel/rest to the front and rear sights. The only thing that will assure the projectile strikes where you are aiming (Point of Impact = Point of Aim) is the mechanical alignment of the weapon. Focusing on the front sight will allow this.

Outdoordan mentioned the subconscious, this is very true. The eye is an amazing organ. Focusing on the front sight through a peep hole will allow the eye/brain to center the front sight in the out-of-focus rear sight. This will allow mechanical alignment of the weapon. The target subsequently will be out-of-focus. Constantly re-focusing between target and sights will cause a miss...or atleast a Point of Impact different than the Point of Aim.

I'm not the best teacher, and less so in writting, but there's a guy on here RELH that is/was a firearms instructor, maybe he could weigh in.

I'm not trying to say one method is better than the other, just what I have learned and used and from an engineering standpoint (yeah I'm a geek) makes sense.

 

[ajensen83]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-07 AT 10:56PM (MST)[p]I have been a firearms instructor for more than ten years.. that is one of the reason I shoot the way I do... and I do agree, to each their own.... but in order for someone to be accurate with a pistol they need to remember one basic lesson, "front sight, squeeze".. yes there are other things that people should learn like mechanical offset, trigger reset, grip, stance and so on, but at the end of the day if you focus on your front sight and squeeze the trigger you will more than likely hit your target.. everyone has a wobble area inherent to them... the gun or bow naturally wobbles a little depending on a number of variables.. you can never eliminate this wobble area but you can improve it with practice..if you focus on your front sight and it is crystal clear, the distance that you will miss the target will be the distance of your wobble area...if you are not focusing on your front sight so that it is crystal clear and centered in your housing, the distance that you are off will be magnified by the distance that you are shooting... so if your pin is off .1 inches in your housing that will mean several inches at 50 yards.. if you buy into that fact that consistency is extremely important in acccurate shooting, one of the best ways to ensure that you are consistent is to center your front sight and then focus on it, ensuring that you keep it in the same spot and that your target is positioned in the same place in relation to your pin...

 

[RELH]

If you want to shoot small groups into the same spot, you have to forcus on the front sight. Your eyes will not allow you to focus on rear, front sight, and target all at the same time due to different focal lenghts.
On shooting a firearm, the front sight must be sharp and clear to shoot very precise groups. the target should be slighty fuzzy and the rear sight can be a little fuzzy. When using peep sights for the rear sight, they will be fuzzy, but the eye has a tendency to focus the front sight into the center of a rear fuzzy peep sight giving a good proper sight picture every time. If you allow the front sight to become fuzzy, you will increase your group size everytime. this is the reason as we get older, and our eyes do not focus the front sight anymore, we notice a larger group pattern then we did earlier in life.
Some guys may feel that allowing the front sight go fuzzy, while having the target in sharp focus is working for them, but if they practiced the correct sight picture, they should see a smaller group size in their shooting.
I have been a firearms instructor for over 15 years and completed training and certification as a firearms instructor by the state of CA. though P.O.S.T. Peace Officer standard Training. I have also been involved in competitive pistol shooting in state wide pistol matches and was shooting in the Distinguish Master Class when I finished shooting competitive matches. Any time I goofed and allowed my front sight not be in focus, I cooked any chances of taking home a trophy by putting a bullet into the 9 or 8 ring instead of the 10 ring.
RELH

 

[proutdoors]

Since swbuckmaster is one of the best archers in the state of Utah, I tend to agree with his 'logic' here.

PRO

 

[Outdoordan]

I don't want to hash this thing to much, but we are talking about archery here, not firearms. I have used a coach and after using her, my shooting was quite substantially better. She is an archery instructor, with many years under her belt teaching ARCHERY.

 

[a3dhunter]

Focus on your target for me,makes it easier to "pick a spot" on an animal or target and hit what I am aiming at.
If focused on the pin I notice the movement of the pin to the point that it creates target panic and I punch the trigger on the release when the pin floats over the "spot".
You can get reasonable accuracy with this method but you will plateau and not be able to move to the next level.
IMHO

To each their own

 

[BOHNTR]

I guess some of you firearm instructors (I'm one also) better correct our US Olympic Team coaches......they teach to focus on the target and your pin secondary.

BOHNTR )))---------->

 

[Lien2]

Seams like most on here that advocate focusing on the pin, are basing it on shooting firearms, but as has been mentioned, this is about archery.
FOCUS ON THE TARGET..........BURN THE SPOT!!!

Lien2
2007 ND State 3D Champion

 

[ajensen83]

just to clarify something, I am not advocating either way.. I am very comfortable shooting a firearm but I am not as comfortable shooting my bow... and I understand the logic behind why I shoot my pistol that way... I am trying to understand why people shoot their bow differently, arent the physics the same??... I am used to being able to explain, at least to myself why I shoot the way I do.. and in researching this I cant find a definitive answer like I can with the pistol.. one school of thought says one thing and another school of though says another...I am still trying to find a good way to shoot looking at the target and not move your front sight..

RELH, I have been teaching for POST for more than ten years and I have taught the last 20 or 30 firearms instructors schools.. I have taught with the FARM for a number of years also.. I have also been shooting competitively, maybe we have run into each other... did you work with Robbie??

 

[ajensen83]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-07 AT 09:39AM (MST)[p]BOHNTR, how do you know that??? have you talked to them, or been lucky enough to have been taught by them.. not questioning that you do know this just wondering how.. some quality coach has to have put out a manual about this...

my other question is this.. if you are focusing on the target then you cant be putting your front sight right where you want to hit right.. because your front sight would block the view of your target.. does that mean you are putting your front sight just below the target??

 

[BOHNTR]

Well, one of the benefits about having to live in Southern CA is I often get to meet and watch many pro-archers train throughout the year. I've had the fortune to also watch the US Olypmic Team practice at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in Chula Vista, Calif. I've not only been fortunate enough to speak with coach Kisik Lee, but have also listened to his instruction. So yes, I have been taught by him......indirectly.

To prevent any further questioning, if you will, I've attached a direct link to a website that Coach Lee answers technical questions on. Please refer to question #26 (second to last paragraph). Hope it helps and good luck to you.

www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Technique/FAQs/FAQs.html

BOHNTR )))---------->

 

[ajensen83]

good post... but why would we want to prevent further questioning.. isnt that what this board is for???

 

[BOHNTR]

Hhhhmmmm.....not exactly what I meant. I took your last post to mean that you wanted to clarrify that our top archery coaches in the US teach this technique. After posting the link for you, I simply meant there's no longer any reason to question that particular issue.

If you want to discuss further about the right or wrong of where an archer should focus.....knock yourself out. You're thoughts are always welcomed here.

BOHNTR )))---------->

 

[BigPig]

Hold on, I want to piss too.

I'm no pro but I usually hold my own in 3d shoots. My opinion is to stare through the pin and hone in on the target. The target does not move. Watching the pin dance around will only lead to target panic and trigger punching. To each their own though. As long as it works for you, who cares? How did proper firearm technique get brought into this? That is like saying you swing a golf club and a baseball bat the same way.

 

[swbuckmaster]

I will agree and with some of what is said with shooting a rifle. Have any of you looked through a scope and noticed your crosshairs and your target are in focus at the same time? You don't have the problem with trying to focus on one or the other. This is because your parallax is adjusted properly and you either have a scope that has an infinite focus or you have focused it to a certain set yardage. Now, while aiming you should concentrate on where you need to hit and align your sight and target up. This is a lot easier with a rifle because you can get a better rest, you will see a heck of a lot less movement, and both are in focus at the same time.

Now with a pistol I will still have to disagree with focusing on your front sight. Have any of you seen the guy that does tricks with his pistol on the outdoor channel. He shoots at aspirins he throws up in the air. You simply wont hit that aspirin if you are focusing on you front sight. It is two small and is moving too fast. This is done I believe with muscle memory. Your pistol simple becomes an extension of your arm. You have practiced it so much it becomes repetitious. Just like throwing a base ball.
That might be a bad example because exhibition shooting is probably a lot like instinctive archery.

Here is my final take on pistols I have shot them about five times in my life I am not an expert in this category but I like to debate once in a while. At the sneaky expo I shot a pistol bee bee gun in a tournament fun shoot for a 50 dollar gift certificate. Every one had to use the same gun and had the same type of targets. There were probable a hundred shooters that visited that booth. I focused on the target, aligned up my sights, squeezed the trigger and shot a perfect score. I am still waiting on my gift certificate.

As for shooting at aspirins I will have to use my bow!

 

[hunterman67]

I am not going to hurt my arm patting myself on the back, I have 8 straight arizona state archery titles hanging on my wall right now, I have 2 sectional chamionship trophies right next to them, I went to college on a full ride to shoot my bow and did VERY well. I qualified swat on my instructors exam out of high school 22 years ago- I can shoot. I had an older fella (my dad) teach himself how to shoot a bow and arrow, then me, then my mom and sister. we knew squat but shot 500 arrows a day for 20 years. I was told one thing- maybe you were told another, and that other guy knows something different. are YOU hitting what YOU are aiming at ? then DO NOT MESS WITH ANYTHING ! if your not, there are things you can try to help. first, I shoot fingers and pins to 110 yards. I am confident in my archery and do not recomend anyone shooting that far- like your rifle- unless you practice. I have a peep sight, I look through my peep, see where my pins are- then look at the target AND ONLY THE TARGET after that. I know my pins. if I am waiting for an animal to give me the honey hole, I MIGHT re-look at my pins, but most of the time I am already looking and know where my pins are. I have not to my knowledge ever been looking at my pin when I shot, I have been looking at the animal, or the place on the animal I want to hit. I will say that I miss animals, more with my gun actually than with my bow. I miss with my gun because I am used to looking at the animal not the pin, with the rifle if you stare at the crosshairs they go blurry, you have to kinda be looking at the animal and your eyes pick up the crosshairs and let it fly. with my bow I am looking at the animal and my pins are secondary. I shot barebow for almost 10 years, you all call it instinctive now- same thing. then I focused on the animal but used the tip of my arrow/where my fingers are on the string to determine my shots. it worked for me. I am right handed, right eye dominant. I shot a jennings model "T" for many years then went to pse when I worked there because it was free, now I was given this browning and it shoots fast but... I have'nt figured it out just yet, but it is not for me ? I shoot the same gun for everything, the remington model 600 in 6mm. I have a 22 inch barrel that is not very forgiving so longer barrels will help your aim. bottom line is besides alot of people being taught different things/ways to shoot- what works for you is best. my son is left handed, right eye dominant- it took me awhile to try and teach him the way I was taught, I guess it worked because he actually hits things almost- ALMOST more than I do- lol.

I AM PROUD TO BE WHITE !!!!!
M WAITE, AZ.

 

[300WSM]

I've tried it both ways and what I finally concluded on is a combo approach. I usually focus on the front pin until it is where I want it on my target. Then I will focus on the target and stare right where I want the arrow to hit until it does. Sometimes I will draw aline of the arrow's path in my mind while still focusing on the target. This is the way I have become accustomed to. This is for when I shoot targets in our archery league but may be too long of a process out in the field in some situations. My two cents......

 

[BOWUNTR]

It's better to be pissed off than pissed on! Archery is at least 90% mental, which means you have to use your brain to shoot a bow. Some of us use our brain too much, causing us to have issues with deciding right from wrong... pin from target. The right way is to focus on the target. The wrong way is to focus on your pin. Or, whatever works better for you! My 2 1/2 cents. Ed F


http://community.webshots.com/user/bowuntr

 

[Shane]

The guy that runs the local range use to teach handgun shooting for special forces until he retired and he told me to focus on the target and let the sight go out of focus. I think it helped me out but what do I know.
Shane