S
stillahuntin
Guest
been lookin at the western states mule deer fawn survival stats and they (all the states) show overall fawns are not making it from 0 to year 1. pretty bad news i think. any one have some ideas?
P
PeterGriffin
Guest
1080
"Dear MacGuyver, Enclosed is a rubber band, a paper clip, and a drinking straw. Please save my dog." Peter Griffin aka The Family Guy
"Dear MacGuyver, Enclosed is a rubber band, a paper clip, and a drinking straw. Please save my dog." Peter Griffin aka The Family Guy
S
stillahuntin
Guest
so you fellars are sayin preds are the main reason eh? hmmm
Curious stillahuntin, what your take is? Im pretty sure here in Az. that most of the reasons we lose fawns is because of predators, mostly Yotes. You seem to think different so im asking, what do you think it is if a fawn is born and it doesn't live to one year old, what killed it besides predators? Did momma dry up and not produce any milk?
GBA
GBA
S
stillahuntin
Guest
>Curious stillahuntin, what your take is?
>Im pretty sure here in
>Az. that most of the
>reasons we lose fawns is
>because of predators, mostly Yotes.
>You seem to think different
>so im asking, what do
>you think it is if
>a fawn is born and
>it doesn't live to one
>year old, what killed it
>besides predators? Did momma dry
>up and not produce any
>milk?
>
>GBA
thanks for the replys.
GBA: yup, i think the preds (especially yotes) are taking a fair share of fawns, but i also think it goes a bit deeper than them just killin em. why are they able to take so many? the fawns come thru the winter too weak to avoid preds? if so, why? is the quality (nutritional value) of winter habitat insuffiecient to provide for the mineral/vitamin nutrients the fawn needs to make it to spring healthy enough to avoid preds? are there state feeding programs in play during rough winters that effect the feeding habits of the deer to the point they habituate certain food sourses to the point they are reduced in supply for the herd during following years?
seems like it could be a bit more than cats and dogs killin the young'uns in and of itself. just wanted others inputs on the subject.
>Im pretty sure here in
>Az. that most of the
>reasons we lose fawns is
>because of predators, mostly Yotes.
>You seem to think different
>so im asking, what do
>you think it is if
>a fawn is born and
>it doesn't live to one
>year old, what killed it
>besides predators? Did momma dry
>up and not produce any
>milk?
>
>GBA
thanks for the replys.
GBA: yup, i think the preds (especially yotes) are taking a fair share of fawns, but i also think it goes a bit deeper than them just killin em. why are they able to take so many? the fawns come thru the winter too weak to avoid preds? if so, why? is the quality (nutritional value) of winter habitat insuffiecient to provide for the mineral/vitamin nutrients the fawn needs to make it to spring healthy enough to avoid preds? are there state feeding programs in play during rough winters that effect the feeding habits of the deer to the point they habituate certain food sourses to the point they are reduced in supply for the herd during following years?
seems like it could be a bit more than cats and dogs killin the young'uns in and of itself. just wanted others inputs on the subject.
tailchasers
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,484
. . . H A B I T A T . . .
Question; If the predator numbers are so high and the deer numbers are so low then what are all these predators eating? Especialy if these predator numbers are as high as some are saying.
. . . H A B I T A T . . .
"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway."
Question; If the predator numbers are so high and the deer numbers are so low then what are all these predators eating? Especialy if these predator numbers are as high as some are saying.
. . . H A B I T A T . . .
"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway."
huntindad4
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,758
UUHH..
The deer tailchasers. Hence the thread's original question.
Bill
Population problems with mule deer directly coincide with the end of poisoning predators, why might that be?
Bill
Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
The deer tailchasers. Hence the thread's original question.
Bill
Population problems with mule deer directly coincide with the end of poisoning predators, why might that be?
Bill
Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
B
booner76
Guest
+1
L
LOWCOUNTRY
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-11 AT 04:51PM (MST)[p]1080 was banned for many reasons although it did work rather well at wiping the coyotes out also alot of chaining and reseedeing with favorable browse was done around the same time. I still see chaining, bullhogging, controlled burns going on to improve habitat but no 1080. I said it before ill blab it again instead of the 1080 which is banned grow a strain of parvo, or distemper virus place it on baits in fawning areas and see what happpens. Any responible houndsman/dog owner would be vacinated against either. It would put a hell of a dent in the coyote pop. but the gov will just keep using the chopper at 400 bucks a coyote more than likely.
S
stillahuntin
Guest
>. . . H A B
>I T A T .
>. .
>
>
>Question; If the predator numbers are
>so high and the deer
>numbers are so low then
>what are all these predators
>eating? Especialy if these predator
>numbers are as high as
>some are saying.
>
>
>. . . H A B
>I T A T .
>. .
>
>
>"Courage is being scared to death
>but saddling
>up anyway."
it aint a cut and dry deal, but the introduction of elk has made a new impact on predation. used to be cat populations would ebb and flow as the deer pop did. now they have an alternate prey base to sustain their numbers through ebbs of deer pops. along those same lines you have the scavenging yotes who will push cats off their kills to take their own nourishment. interesting dilemma, predators and prey.
>I T A T .
>. .
>
>
>Question; If the predator numbers are
>so high and the deer
>numbers are so low then
>what are all these predators
>eating? Especialy if these predator
>numbers are as high as
>some are saying.
>
>
>. . . H A B
>I T A T .
>. .
>
>
>"Courage is being scared to death
>but saddling
>up anyway."
it aint a cut and dry deal, but the introduction of elk has made a new impact on predation. used to be cat populations would ebb and flow as the deer pop did. now they have an alternate prey base to sustain their numbers through ebbs of deer pops. along those same lines you have the scavenging yotes who will push cats off their kills to take their own nourishment. interesting dilemma, predators and prey.
tailchasers
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,484
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-11 AT 07:37PM (MST)[p]Let me clarify. With the low deer numbers and high predator numbers there has to be an alternate food source because there isn't any way possible the predators are surviving on fawns alone and simply "eating all the deer".
With proper habitat animals have better nutrition, bedding areas, concealment, fawning grounds, and a means of eluding predators. Provide an area with adequate food, water, and shelter and these critters will be able to deal with
the predators but also will improve overall animal survival. We have become a society where we have snuffed out wild forest and range fires with only small controlled perscribed burns; timber harvesting industry is nearly unheard of; and urban sprawl is rampant. This is just to name a few. Improve on these an we will improve our herd.
"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway".
With proper habitat animals have better nutrition, bedding areas, concealment, fawning grounds, and a means of eluding predators. Provide an area with adequate food, water, and shelter and these critters will be able to deal with
the predators but also will improve overall animal survival. We have become a society where we have snuffed out wild forest and range fires with only small controlled perscribed burns; timber harvesting industry is nearly unheard of; and urban sprawl is rampant. This is just to name a few. Improve on these an we will improve our herd.
"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway".
S
stillahuntin
Guest
yep, i agree with you tc, good points. what i'm saying is it's a complicated issue with no cut and dry answers, although quality habitat is certainly at the top of the heap. where yotes are concerned, even in areas of good habitat, plenty of water, escapement, etc., if their numbers are plentiful they can disrupt the daily feeding/living routines of deer to the point they can't utilize thier habitat fully, ending up coming out of winter in poor shape, and vulnerable to predation, even with good cover. nasty business this deer management thing, lots of stuff to consider for sure. thanks for your input, good points.
D
Darktimber
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-11 AT 08:11PM (MST)[p]+1000 tailchaser.
P
PeterGriffin
Guest
Habitat is good, but riddle me this.
I think we'd all agree that there was more habitat during the 1800s yet deer numbers were low? Why? What changed? Fires? Grazing? Agriculture?
Say what you want but I believe predators deserve all the credit they're given.
What's up with all the pro predator talk on these hunting forums anyways? Brainwashed college kids or what?
Dear MacGuyver, Enclosed is a rubber band, a paper clip, and a drinking straw. Please save my dog." Peter Griffin aka The Family Guy
I think we'd all agree that there was more habitat during the 1800s yet deer numbers were low? Why? What changed? Fires? Grazing? Agriculture?
Say what you want but I believe predators deserve all the credit they're given.
What's up with all the pro predator talk on these hunting forums anyways? Brainwashed college kids or what?
Dear MacGuyver, Enclosed is a rubber band, a paper clip, and a drinking straw. Please save my dog." Peter Griffin aka The Family Guy
Another impact to fawn survival is getting the does bred quickly in the fall, avoiding late fawns which have a smaller chance of surviving the winter. Having the fawns all drop in a short time period in the spring also impacts survival against predators.
Habitat plays an important part (healthy does/bigger fawn)but I think buck: doe ratios, and more importantly mature buck to doe ratios are critical to "get the job done" in the fall.
There is no way we are killing as many predators as in the days when dogs were $120 a hide and 1080 was around. Cougars used to be classified as predators in Idaho, now they are "big game". There are still plenty of cattle and sheep in the hills, along with "new" elk herds to feed the predators when they can't kill deer.
All that said I think it is a combination of things, including too much stagnant CRP that used to produce winter/spring feed (fall wheat) for lots of deer.
We can't find the magic bullet to fix the herds because there isn't one, its going to take a consistent effort to restore habitat, control predators, figure out how to feed some deer when the winters are real bad, fence some roads and (GASP)control some hunter numbers until we get things under control. We may even have to raise resident tag prices to get it done.....
Habitat plays an important part (healthy does/bigger fawn)but I think buck: doe ratios, and more importantly mature buck to doe ratios are critical to "get the job done" in the fall.
There is no way we are killing as many predators as in the days when dogs were $120 a hide and 1080 was around. Cougars used to be classified as predators in Idaho, now they are "big game". There are still plenty of cattle and sheep in the hills, along with "new" elk herds to feed the predators when they can't kill deer.
All that said I think it is a combination of things, including too much stagnant CRP that used to produce winter/spring feed (fall wheat) for lots of deer.
We can't find the magic bullet to fix the herds because there isn't one, its going to take a consistent effort to restore habitat, control predators, figure out how to feed some deer when the winters are real bad, fence some roads and (GASP)control some hunter numbers until we get things under control. We may even have to raise resident tag prices to get it done.....
S
stillahuntin
Guest
im not on here much so i don't know about the "pro predator" talk you're talking about, it sure isn't me. And no, i wouldn't agree with you about the habitat in the 1800's. The mule deer habitat hits its peak in the 40's and 50's with the mule deer numbers hugely inflating beyond what would have been the norm way before that. durning the 1800's open range grazing was just getting started and it would be decades before the forb rich habitats would be formed in the west. and yeah, predators do deserve a large blame, but it isn't just because they "can" and kill fawns, much more to it than that, i believe.
i agree there is much to learn and to be done, and there isn't a magic bullit to fix the herds.
i agree there is much to learn and to be done, and there isn't a magic bullit to fix the herds.
S
stillahuntin
Guest
>Another impact to fawn survival is
>getting the does bred quickly
>in the fall, avoiding late
>fawns which have a smaller
>chance of surviving the winter.
> Having the fawns all
>drop in a short time
>period in the spring also
>impacts survival against predators.
>
>Habitat plays an important part (healthy
>does/bigger fawn)but I think buck:
>doe ratios, and more importantly
>mature buck to doe ratios
>are critical to "get the
>job done" in the fall.
>
>
>There is no way we are
>killing as many predators as
>in the days when dogs
>were $120 a hide and
>1080 was around. Cougars
>used to be classified as
>predators in Idaho, now they
>are "big game". There
>are still plenty of cattle
>and sheep in the hills,
>along with "new" elk herds
>to feed the predators when
>they can't kill deer.
>
>All that said I think it
>is a combination of things,
>including too much stagnant CRP
>that used to produce winter/spring
>feed (fall wheat) for lots
>of deer.
>
>We can't find the magic bullet
>to fix the herds because
>there isn't one, its going
>to take a consistent effort
>to restore habitat, control predators,
>figure out how to feed
>some deer when the winters
>are real bad, fence some
>roads and (GASP)control some hunter
>numbers until we get things
>under control. We may
>even have to raise resident
>tag prices to get it
>done.....
agree with some of what you are saying, you may want to investigate a bit more about the mature buck to do ratio thing before declaring it as fact...just a suggestion, but I know what you are sayin'
>getting the does bred quickly
>in the fall, avoiding late
>fawns which have a smaller
>chance of surviving the winter.
> Having the fawns all
>drop in a short time
>period in the spring also
>impacts survival against predators.
>
>Habitat plays an important part (healthy
>does/bigger fawn)but I think buck:
>doe ratios, and more importantly
>mature buck to doe ratios
>are critical to "get the
>job done" in the fall.
>
>
>There is no way we are
>killing as many predators as
>in the days when dogs
>were $120 a hide and
>1080 was around. Cougars
>used to be classified as
>predators in Idaho, now they
>are "big game". There
>are still plenty of cattle
>and sheep in the hills,
>along with "new" elk herds
>to feed the predators when
>they can't kill deer.
>
>All that said I think it
>is a combination of things,
>including too much stagnant CRP
>that used to produce winter/spring
>feed (fall wheat) for lots
>of deer.
>
>We can't find the magic bullet
>to fix the herds because
>there isn't one, its going
>to take a consistent effort
>to restore habitat, control predators,
>figure out how to feed
>some deer when the winters
>are real bad, fence some
>roads and (GASP)control some hunter
>numbers until we get things
>under control. We may
>even have to raise resident
>tag prices to get it
>done.....
agree with some of what you are saying, you may want to investigate a bit more about the mature buck to do ratio thing before declaring it as fact...just a suggestion, but I know what you are sayin'
I bet my sack lunch that there are more lions killed now than anytime in history with all of the technology we have today and 1000's of people with hounds. Used to be the only ones with hounds were bounty hunters, and they were a select few. Pro predator? Not at all....just know that lions are not the problem many seem to think. Coyotes are at the top of the food chain right under man when it comes to the fawn crop. Habitat lessens every year. Look at where people are building homes. Most of the deer winter grounds are subdivisions anymore. Even here in rural Utah.
AWHOLELOTTABULL
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,357
A pretty good indicator that you have a coyote problem (and other predators) is the lack of rabbits in an area. We used to hunt rabbits all the time over by Indianola and out by Delta. Used to see hundreds of rabbits in a morning hunt and shoot several boxes of ammo to boot. Not any more. I don't even bother going rabbit hunting. Very few left and it's solely due to the overpopulation of coyotes. I would just about bet that if we went back to poisoning, we would see a rapid increase in deer numbers.
It's always an adventure!!!
It's always an adventure!!!
tailchasers
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,484
>Habitat lessens every year.
>Look at where people are
>building homes. Most of the
>deer winter grounds are subdivisions
>anymore. Even here in rural
>Utah.
The best example I have seen of this is between Glenwood Springs and Aspen. Horrible what urban sprawl has done here. And I here hunters complain about the herd in the region and point fingers at nearly everything but themselves while owning a home in the valley there. The winter grounds the animals used to call home is nonexistent there anymore.
we are seeing a different type of urbanization in western colorado and eastern utah with the expansion of the oil and natural gas fields. This has to have a significant impact upon the herd as now roads cris cross and wells dot the range.
"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway."
>Look at where people are
>building homes. Most of the
>deer winter grounds are subdivisions
>anymore. Even here in rural
>Utah.
The best example I have seen of this is between Glenwood Springs and Aspen. Horrible what urban sprawl has done here. And I here hunters complain about the herd in the region and point fingers at nearly everything but themselves while owning a home in the valley there. The winter grounds the animals used to call home is nonexistent there anymore.
we are seeing a different type of urbanization in western colorado and eastern utah with the expansion of the oil and natural gas fields. This has to have a significant impact upon the herd as now roads cris cross and wells dot the range.
"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway."
+1 wholelottabull!!
>Habitat lessens every year.
>Look at where people are
>building homes. Most of the
>deer winter grounds are subdivisions
>anymore. Even here in rural
>Utah.
I have a question for those of you that feel habitat and winter kill is the biggest issue specially concerning oil fields, new roads etc.etc.. Why can't Mule deer adapt to rural sprawl and oil fields with more roads etc. etc.. Im not trying to bring up a debate or argument over it but I am curious why the northern whitetail deer can thrive in rural areas, oil fields etc.etc.. and live threw very harsh winters as well?? I've lived here in Az over half my life but I came from Michigan. Right now there are more deer there than have ever been. Every mile of highway there is a dead deer aside the road. Their fish and game introduced Yotes years ago and yes it has made some impact but those deer don't care about roads, homes Derek?s moving farm equipment cars and sometimes not even people. etc. etc.. My sister has to walk her alfalfa field in front of the equipment during their first cut of hay to kick the fawns out of the field before they get chopped up. Now if whitetail can adapt why can't Mule deer?
GBA
>Habitat lessens every year.
>Look at where people are
>building homes. Most of the
>deer winter grounds are subdivisions
>anymore. Even here in rural
>Utah.
I have a question for those of you that feel habitat and winter kill is the biggest issue specially concerning oil fields, new roads etc.etc.. Why can't Mule deer adapt to rural sprawl and oil fields with more roads etc. etc.. Im not trying to bring up a debate or argument over it but I am curious why the northern whitetail deer can thrive in rural areas, oil fields etc.etc.. and live threw very harsh winters as well?? I've lived here in Az over half my life but I came from Michigan. Right now there are more deer there than have ever been. Every mile of highway there is a dead deer aside the road. Their fish and game introduced Yotes years ago and yes it has made some impact but those deer don't care about roads, homes Derek?s moving farm equipment cars and sometimes not even people. etc. etc.. My sister has to walk her alfalfa field in front of the equipment during their first cut of hay to kick the fawns out of the field before they get chopped up. Now if whitetail can adapt why can't Mule deer?
GBA
D
Darktimber
Guest
Yeah, if it wasn't for the golf courses, there wouldn't be many animals left there. I love watching those elk tear up that golf course every year. All the supposed wintering ground that is left is to high in elevation for most normal winters in the area. Then just when you think the animals have a chance, you get the early shed hunter army pushing through the herd nonstop. Killing the thing that provides them their hobby. That gets me mad to. I love horn hunting, but this early crap has to stop. Wait till April at least. I'll be out coyote hunting some of the same area and the amount of tweakers I see out horn hunting in early February, and March is sad. Deer running everywhere, nonstop, everyday, its a joke.
I would like your input and thoughts on buck:doe ratios/mature buck ratios.
While I don't "know for a fact" that it is an issue with deer, I do know that with other critters, young males do not breed as effectively as older males. Too few males also impacts the length of the birthing season.
Combined with low deer densities (bucks have to travel farther to breed)the ratio must have an impact on when does are bred (not the only factor, but 1 factor).
BTW I know what the fish and game will say, but they have not impressed me with their results growing our deer.
While I don't "know for a fact" that it is an issue with deer, I do know that with other critters, young males do not breed as effectively as older males. Too few males also impacts the length of the birthing season.
Combined with low deer densities (bucks have to travel farther to breed)the ratio must have an impact on when does are bred (not the only factor, but 1 factor).
BTW I know what the fish and game will say, but they have not impressed me with their results growing our deer.
S
stillahuntin
Guest
>+1 wholelottabull!!
>
>
>>Habitat lessens every year.
>>Look at where people are
>>building homes. Most of the
>>deer winter grounds are subdivisions
>>anymore. Even here in rural
>>Utah.
>
>
> I have a question for
>those of you that feel
>habitat and winter kill is
>the biggest issue specially concerning
>oil fields, new roads etc.etc..
>Why can't Mule deer adapt
>to rural sprawl and oil
>fields with more roads etc.
>etc.. Im not trying to
>bring up a debate or
>argument over it but I
>am curious why the northern
>whitetail deer can thrive in
>rural areas, oil fields etc.etc..
>and live threw very harsh
>winters as well?? I've lived
>here in Az over half
>my life but I came
>from Michigan. Right now there
>are more deer there than
>have ever been. Every mile
>of highway there is a
>dead deer aside the road.
>Their fish and game introduced
>Yotes years ago and yes
>it has made some impact
>but those deer don't care
>about roads, homes Derek?s moving
>farm equipment cars and sometimes
>not even people. etc. etc..
>My sister has to walk
>her alfalfa field in front
>of the equipment during their
>first cut of hay to
>kick the fawns out of
>the field before they get
>chopped up. Now if whitetail
>can adapt why can't Mule
>deer?
>
>
>GBA
thats a good question GBA, and i'm not sure anyone has an answer. even the blactails on the coast adapt to urban sprawl and a variety of other things that mule deer don't seem to be able to. for whatever reason, mule deer just don't seem to have the dna to do what the other deer do. the biggest difference I see between the three species is that mule deer seem to be more at home on much larger tracts of home range. dunno what that might have to do with it but who knows. even when it comes to transplanting deer, the whitetail does much, much better than the mulie.
one thing is certain, there are a lot of things we don't understand yet about mulies, and trying to fix something we don't understand is a tough thing to do. puts a ball of nails in my stomach most days i think about it.
>
>
>>Habitat lessens every year.
>>Look at where people are
>>building homes. Most of the
>>deer winter grounds are subdivisions
>>anymore. Even here in rural
>>Utah.
>
>
> I have a question for
>those of you that feel
>habitat and winter kill is
>the biggest issue specially concerning
>oil fields, new roads etc.etc..
>Why can't Mule deer adapt
>to rural sprawl and oil
>fields with more roads etc.
>etc.. Im not trying to
>bring up a debate or
>argument over it but I
>am curious why the northern
>whitetail deer can thrive in
>rural areas, oil fields etc.etc..
>and live threw very harsh
>winters as well?? I've lived
>here in Az over half
>my life but I came
>from Michigan. Right now there
>are more deer there than
>have ever been. Every mile
>of highway there is a
>dead deer aside the road.
>Their fish and game introduced
>Yotes years ago and yes
>it has made some impact
>but those deer don't care
>about roads, homes Derek?s moving
>farm equipment cars and sometimes
>not even people. etc. etc..
>My sister has to walk
>her alfalfa field in front
>of the equipment during their
>first cut of hay to
>kick the fawns out of
>the field before they get
>chopped up. Now if whitetail
>can adapt why can't Mule
>deer?
>
>
>GBA
thats a good question GBA, and i'm not sure anyone has an answer. even the blactails on the coast adapt to urban sprawl and a variety of other things that mule deer don't seem to be able to. for whatever reason, mule deer just don't seem to have the dna to do what the other deer do. the biggest difference I see between the three species is that mule deer seem to be more at home on much larger tracts of home range. dunno what that might have to do with it but who knows. even when it comes to transplanting deer, the whitetail does much, much better than the mulie.
one thing is certain, there are a lot of things we don't understand yet about mulies, and trying to fix something we don't understand is a tough thing to do. puts a ball of nails in my stomach most days i think about it.
