factories leaving the country

M

Monarch

Guest
Am I only a utopian thinker, or can we really stop the buying of products made in other lands? (sorry Canada) If we bought only good old American made products, could we put the hurts on China? So help me God, I would not buy other products if I thought it would make a difference on our economy. Something has to change, for your state most likely is like mine - jobs gone. We cant compete with $1 per hour in Mexico and $1 a day in China. I know one family that buys only made in the good ole USA, but how can we get more people to do this ? Please, your thoughts.
 
Monarch: You probably wont like my answer but truthfully my opinion is that in our current Global economy we as consumers who for the most part want more "toys" than we can afford so we either price shop alot for the best deal and we finance alot really out of our budget and get stuck in a money crunch. We then want to save money and buy products that fit our price range that had to be made with lower labor/material costs which the savings we use to pay our debt. The only way companies get lower labor costs at this day and age is moving their plants to other countries that their consumerism hasnt grown culturally as far as ours in the good ol USA.............I think if more of us lived within our budget (and I dont yet) then we might be able to afford to buy more local products. sorry if this answer rambles a bit or isnt what you wanted to hear. Allen Taylor......
 
I'll tell ya what Monarch, I work for Boeing and have for the last 26 years...I have watched this company go from the greatest airplane manufacturer to a company that is selling Its heart and soul to try to compete with airbus. We have currently laid off 35 to 45 THOUSAND American workers and are in the process of outsourcing (selling) most of what we used to build to other countries...For the first time in this company's history someone else (Japan) will be building part of the wings for the 7E7...NAFTA IS KILLING US and you can thank Clinton for the start and Bush for continuing the spiral fall...Now we see a president who is willing to let "ILLEGAL" imagrants stay and be given a free pass in this country because they will accept "so called" Jobs for less pay...Just to pander for votes...If we have 4 more years of Bush there will not be manufacturing plant left in this country...And I was foolish enough to think that our government was put in place to serve us not other countries....I have no idea who I will vote for in November..There isn't one candidate out there worth the powder to blow him with.. We are in deep chit!!!!!
 
I worked for Miller Brewing Co. in Tumwater,WA. It was Olympia, Pabst and then Miller. As soon as Miller bought our plant they started downsizing and eliminating jobs. A couple of years ago Miller was bought by South African Brewing. The second that SAB took over and started calling the shots we all knew that we were doomed. We had meetin upon meeting on how their breweries in Asia, Africa and India were so much more cost efficient than we were and that we were to do what it takes to cut costs. It didnt matter that we had the most reliable and efficient can line in the entire company. Bottom line, they shut us down and stated that the plant will never be used as a brewery again no matter who owns it. SAB has plans to shut down 2 other Miller plants (leaving only 4 left in the US) including the one that started it all in Millwaukeee. Their plan is to ship as much buisiness to other countries as they can and keep just enough in the US for distribution and label purposes. It is cheaper for them to make it over seas and ship it into the US.
We lost 400+ jobs at our plant. It was estimated that for every job lost there were 3-5 others lost due to plant related businesses. So it was not just 400 jobs lost it was between 1200 and 2000. Mostly due to a foriegn company. Do you think that NAFTA has anything to do with it, I believe so.
It aint gonna stop anytime soon kids.
Eric

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Sorry, but I am not buying an American made car until the quality matches the price.
 
Thank you each for your comments - this subject could be one that haunts us for years. I dont usually get too worried about things like this, but I must say this one has moved me. I have no idea what the answer is. My brother says - we have seen the best times. Sure hope thats not the case. I live in Michigan and factory after factory have left the state. Iam 57 and have never worked for someone else, but see the effects on others as well as on my business. I buy and sell real estate, and work with my son in the towing business and she isnt what she used to be. We can get mad as hell and buy only our products, but can that work in this world economy? I look forward to your ideas.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-04 AT 06:06AM (MST)[p]desertbull,
Don't worry about buying American made cars....There aren't any cars made out of American parts only...Most car parts are imported from other countries and assembled here in America..
 
hey desert bull,
wheres your american pride?
ya, i agree toyotas are nice,
but how many japanese people do you see driving a chevy,dodge,ford?
ya, the price is high,
but every time a foreign product is bought a job is lost,
and yes i know toyota has u.s. plants,i'm not just knocking toyota,i'm talking all manufacturing.
i've seen some real trash coming out of mexico,
the quality is piss poor,
evidentally no quality control what so ever!
remember its only getting worse,
and no i don't agree with bush letting every no green card alien in for a free ride,
what in the hell is he thinking?
remember,the american pride has been lost and we must bring it back!

bcb
 
It seems rather ironic to me that Bush will put our guys and gals in harms way to help liberate a foriegn country but then turn around and sell out the American people ( and their jobs) when he can help turn a quick buck for the rich business buddies .....What are we fighting for???. We need to stop NAFTA..
 
BCB, by supporting an over paid, over unionized industry to manifacture P.O.S quality products hasn't paid off so far for the big 3.
I know U.S. workers can make quality products, thats where those Toyota trucks are made, but when some dumb basturd can't loose his job for doing it poorly, your going to have a hard time righting the ship, samething goes for that cluster F.... A.K.A the Utah division of wildlife.
 
I don't want to alarm anybody

but when you look at how many american jobs have been exported over the last 6 years and with Bush mentioning that he'd like to open up the borders to let more foreigners come in to our own country and compete with americans for the jobs that are left things don't look too rosey.
Combine that with the fact that the average american household carries a little less than 19 thousand dollars of credit card and vehicle debt and we are on course for disaster.
My neighbor *had* a great whitecollar job working for a very well known company here in the US. He spent the last 3 months training an Indian (dots, not feathers) how to do his job then they laid him off and sent his job to India. Nobody is safe. If you are an hourly worker, they will send your factory away or keep it here and let you compete with somebody who thinks 6 bucks an hour is a gravy train.
If you're white collar they will just outsource your job. On 60 Minutes last sunday night there was a pretty good story about how several state governments have outsourced operations OVER SEAS. They are actually sending their own state jobs over seas. How screwed up is that?
I could rant on about this but I hope you get the point. If you're in debt, get out. If you're out of debt, save all you can and stay out of debt. This will get alot uglier.
string
 
RE: I don't want to alarm anybody

The one who really gets under my skin is McCain (sp) from Arizona...He wants the Air force to actually get bids from AIRBUS to build the refueling tanker for the UNITED STATES AIRFORCE!!!. Thats treason coming from an ex navy pilot...
 
RE: I don't want to alarm anybody

Stringshooter touched a nerve with me...... I am living the 'white collar' situation right now.

I am a Technology Director for a major US company. Several years ago, everyone thought it would just be the 'factory' jobs that would go over seas. The term 'factory' to many people means an assembly line putting out a physical product. In my world, the term 'factory' means putting out lines of computer code. The pressure is HUGE to lower costs to run the tech systems that make my company tick. This means one thing; OUTSOURCING! I pay >$250 per hour for a good Technical Architect here in the US, or I can pay $35 per hour for a Tech Arch from Bangalore. I can get a good web engineer/programmer for $14 per hour. Unfortunately, from a purely economic standpoint, the choice is simple; I have to go to India to hire! I cannot keep my company's tech systems running at an economical rate if I keep all of the work on-shore. I just hope we don't find a way to outsource the Mgmt (my job), but I know that some day it may happen. :-( Sad but true.... All I can do is to try to prepare myself by keeping on top of tech trends to ensure I am ahead of the game so if/when it happens, I can still get a job here.

I think that Allen hit it on the head. We are living in a global economy. We must be able to compete with the world, and right now in my industry we are NOT competitive.

Many on this board likely will think less of me for taking the position I am. It may appear that I am selling-out, or ignoring the good ol' US. So be it. We have to look further than our own borders, and further than the immediate future if the U.S. is going to continue to thrive in the future.

S.
 
RE: I don't want to alarm anybody

Stanley,
I could rant and rave but it wouldn't do any good (I know, I've tried...). The writing is on the wall. Anybody who has sat through freshman economics could see this coming. Its not your fault. Its big business and big business doesn't care about how many americans they lay off. They don't care that americans lose their jobs. Big business cares that labor is cheap and taxes are low. Nothing else matters. If Americans cant afford the products they produce some other country will.
Bura Nut is correct. We are now part of a global economy. As such I think you will see American incomes average down until we are competitive again.
I don't mean to gloom and doom but it aint pretty.
 
RE: I don't want to alarm anybody

One thing about all of this we leave out is the fact that directly or indirectly we are somewhat to blame if we have a pension vested in mutual funds or we play in the stock market a bit. Basically what I am saying is that Wall Street brought us into the Dot.Gone era and they drive companies to increase revenues and earnings which the only way to increase earnings with flat or reduced revenues is to cut costs. The biggest cost for many companies is labor and therefore this is a catch-22. we all want great returns on our investments but of course dont like the way in which business goes about it. couple all this with a government that is way over employed and it is a real big problem.......... Allen Taylor......
 
B_F_E_

YOU'VE SURE BEEN IN A B_F_M_ LATELY!!!

DID YOU GET THAT E-MAIL I SENT YOU???

SEND ME A PM AND LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DRAW THIS YEAR!!!

DON'T GET MAD AT THE DWR YET,WAIT TILL THEY SCREW YOU OUT OF A BONUS POINT LIKE THEY DID ME!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT CARING FOR THE QUALITY OF ANY OF THAT SOUTH OF THE BORDER MANUFACTURING!!!
 
RE: I don't want to alarm anybody

What I believe we need to do as a country is be MORE dependent on ourselves. We are great inventors and great builders. Bura, What is wrong with wanting to be successful and better when it comes to research and developement...Boeing, Microsoft,IBM,ETC,ETC,ETC.......Wall street is a reflection of this countries greatness...I agree labor is expensive but the only reason companies are going to other countries is pure GREED!!!. Boeing is outsourcing it's soul for one reason and one reason only.......The almighty dollar!!!. Our elected government is selling us down the road for money...just my opinion....
 
RE: I don't want to alarm anybody

String, you are correct-a-mundo. I'm seeing more and more of this outsourcing and it just sucks. The average American, hard working as they may be will be outfazed by even cheaper labor and will wind up probably living under the 20th street viaduct. Not a pretty sight. My ex-company is now setting up shop on Vietnam of all places due to the fact that labor is soooo damned cheap and the profit margins are soooo much better. What happened to company loyalty and taking care of your employees?
 
RE: I don't want to alarm anybody

This is an EXTREMELY complicated subject, very hard to even attempt to put in a nutshell or a post, so I'm just gunna spit out a few principles and explain why protectionism or subsidized products is a bad thing. In a nutshell it causes complacency and is socialistic by nature. And that's not the America I know.

What the heck ever happened to our American "Spirit of free enterprise?" Don't we still encourage and cheer for the guy with the best quality product for the lowest price? Are we turning our heads toward protectionism in favor of lower quality and higher priced domestic products? Kingfish, you know more about the airline manufacturing economy than I would ever hope to know, but one thing you guys have an impossible time trying to compete with is the fact that Airbus is government subsidized. Do you thing those French workers work smarter or harder than you guys? Nope, not even close. But if their government is subsidizing 50% of the cost to build a plane, how can you compete? How can you cut 50% of the cost out of your planes? You can't.......so, like Ferrari or Lamborghini, you have to have a much better plane for a smaller market, albiet it at a higher price. We've run into the same problem (and others) in a global market for our Satellites....Alcatel (France) is doing the same thing, getting 50% subsidized. There's no way that's an equal playing field. So we have to get clever, create new markets (Direct TV, XM radio, broadband, etc.) and new technologies that customers WILL pay the extra bucks for because they can't get em elsewhere.

A simple example of our complacency in automotive manufacturing; look at what the Japanese did to help our automakers get out of their old ways, poorer and poorer quality and fat corporate profits.........they took away the market share by coming up with a high quality product at a good price (Honda, Toyota, etc.). That got Detroits attention PRONTO and Detroit has since mended their ways & are now coming out with cars and trucks with better quality, more competitively priced, and on top of it all, better designs (IMHO). All to the benefit of American consumers. That was all PRE-NAFTA, BTW. And knock NAFTA all you want, but from that turnaround, now the Japanese (Toyota, for one) have plants here in the states making their trucks (Tundra) and engines, employing American workers to do it. Only the engineering and the corporate profit portions go to Japan, and rightly so.

What I described above was a wakeup call to the complacency that naturally sets in when things are going well. Japan is now starting to go through that same phase and are having troubles with it, since they are very good at copying and not so good at creating (generally speaking) products. What we need to do is what we have always done for the past century.....use our unique ability to innovate new products and new technology for new markets. Look back through our history and you'll see that the one huge difference is that we have always been the innovators. We need to continue to do that if we want to continue to manufacture those products....otherwise, subsidies and 3rd world countries with cheap labor simply will swallow up the manufacturing of those items by copying our products.
 
RE: I don't want to alarm anybody

Freedivr,
you make some excellent points. I've been working full time (out of college) for a little over 10 years. Its difficult for me to rationalize things sometimes based on my limited experience. I think that alot of the American work force has seen this trend happen in the past. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the white-collar worker has ever had to cope with this trend to the extent that we do today.
Bura, the one way I hedge my bet is to continue to invest in American companies. Regardless of where their labor comes from, as they become more profitable the stock price increases. I just hope I have the income to invest in the coming years.
Freedive, I believe that you are correct and that we will have to up our game and improve our product. I think Germany may be a good example. I don't have firsthand knowledge of their economy or wages over there, but you still see people dropping substantial money for German engineering and quality (exhibit A - read ANY thread on optics on this board).
I only hope that we are given the opportunity to produce a better product over here before the jobs and factories are all exported.
string
 
RE: I don't want to alarm anybody

Great post free!!!. You are exactly right when it comes down to trying to compete with a company that is subsidized by governments of four different countries...I truly believe in my heart if we were to compete head to head based on product Boeing would do the samething to Airbus that we did to McDonald Douglas...I would only hope that this time we wouldn't buy a loser after we had put it out of business....
 
RE: I don't want to alarm anybody

Good one Kingfish, especially for your 2000th post (glad I was involved with that post, quite a milestone dude!!).

Yep, no doubt in my mind (except your I.E. guys worry me a little bit sometimes) that B.A.C. would be the hands-down winner all around if the global economy truly were a free-enterprise (vs. govt. subsidized) one. FOUR countries subsidizing those lazy Frenchies, eh? That's a compliment, though, because apparently that's what it takes to even compete with you guys. My deeply sincerest best of luck to you guys up there in your future aircraft ventures. Hang in there and help innovate my friend....

(P.S.....I changed jobs a few months ago, so all those trips I'd planned up north to pick your guys brains won't be happening as they would have.....I'll see ya sometime in the near future though, too many cousins up there not to).
 
RE: I don't want to alarm anybody

Cooter

THANKS FOR THE PICTURES OF TIGER'S GIRLFRIEND!!!

I DON'T THINK THE WIFE LIKED EM AS MUCH AS I DID!!!

I HOPE THINGS ARE GOING O.K. FOR YOU!!!

THE ONLY bobcat STARING AT A NICE 'RACK'!!!
 
RE: I don't want to alarm anybody

Yeh, it is easy to see why he isnt playing as well. Hell, I couldnt walk the course because of terminal stiffy! She is a very lickable, oops, I mean likeable gal! :D
Eric
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