EXPO/OUTFITTERS/DWR???

S

ShowThemToMe

Guest
Sounds like there might have been a meeting?

I told everybody a few years back the Age Objective BS/COW KILLING/SPIKE/PISSCUTTER Pounding wasn't gonna work!

Anybody notice the Difference in the 2011 Bulls Hanging on the Walls?

Just wait,it's gonna get worse!

Don't get me wrong,still some Nice Bulls,and to me 350" has always been Big but I wonder how many people are noticing the change?

Sounded like there's been a BIG chunk of Change taken to a different State because of POOR management Once again here in Utah?

Pull the CWMU Bulls off the wall & what do you have?

You've got a real SLAP in the face with a 'few' Big Bulls being taken in all different parts of the State but not even comparible to what we had just a few short years ago!

But BY GAWD 'a few Opportunists/DWR are happy I Guess?

Be Proud Paul P. & Kevin P,talked to both of you,Nice Bulls!

Go ahead,tell me I'm not a Brain Washed Biologist!

Go ahead,tell me I'm Blind!

Go ahead,tell me I don't know WTH I'm talkin about!

Fire away Boys!



[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
The daughter and I were down yesterday and it had been 2 years since we been to the last and thats the first thing we noticed both in the bucks and the bulls..half of them we wouldn't want mounted..
 
Some how and in some way and miracle, I do believe and agree with you. OUCH!!! That hurt to say.

But I felt the same way a few years ago, it will ruin our bulls. 2 years later, not as many big bulls. Not the quality we were seeing. We just stepped back about 10 years on quality.
 
>The daughter and I were down
>yesterday and it had been
>2 years since we been
>to the last and thats
>the first thing we noticed
>both in the bucks and
>the bulls..half of them we
>wouldn't want mounted..

Damn it Longun!

Should'of let me know you were gonna be there,I missed ya!


[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Great, another ten year ADD on to the already backed up draw system. Lets just make it a OIL tag.
 
>Some how and in some way
>and miracle, I do
>believe and agree with you.
> OUCH!!! That hurt
>to say.
>
>But I felt the same way
>a few years ago, it
>will ruin our bulls.
>2 years later, not as
>many big bulls. Not the
>quality we were seeing.
>We just stepped back about
>10 years on quality.

You've heard me say it for several years Robiland!

I know,I'm like a Broken Record!

The Ryan & Sheronski Type of Bulls are Haunting my Head!:D

It's OK Robi,We can still Agree to Agree or DisAgree!





[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
>Not all of the big bulls
>that were shot this year
>ended up in the EXPO.
> I have heard of
>lots of big bulls being
>shot.

You're Right Roadless Hunter!

You read my whole Post?

I said there were some Nice Bulls taken in several areas of Utah in 2011!

I also said,compare the numbers & size to just a few short years ago!

Tell me you can't see things changing for the worse?

[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
I don't have a stake in this issue because I hunt LE deer. I have never had a big bull tag in Utah.

Part of the problem is it takes a bunch of bulls dying of old age to get a few 400 inch bulls. The San Juan is a good example of this problem. We have spent lots of days on that mountain and the crap horn bull will never be shot.

This is my opinion.
 
Unfortunately it will be the same people that pushed for increased tags and opportunity. That will be the first to complain when they get their tag and they cannot find a good bull.

I don't think there should be 400's on every unit but I do think there should be some units if you want to wait a little longer and hunt harder you can have a chance at a monster.

We are just seeing the beginning of the end of great elk hunting in Utah. The effects of the increased harvest on the top and increased harvest on the bottom (spike hunting) are on a collision course over the next two years.


Take out more than you brought in!
 
Well Roadless!

It Happens!(Rare though!)

If you GUT the Hook,Line & Sinker down on that one You're Blinder than you should be!

The year they offered the management Bull Hunt,there was one Legit Bull taken(Just like I said long before they decided to do a Management Hunt!)off that Mountain,several Big Broken Bulls were taken just like I suggested would happen,DWR couldn't see it till it happened,that Hunt didn't last long!

That BS of numerous Bulls dieing of old age is BS!

It happens,not in very many numbers though,The OPPORTUNISTS & the DWR ain't gonna let it happen,not even in small numbers!





[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
You're rioght inline!

Don't forget about the Opportunists Killin the Cows & Our DWR turning Cows in to nothing more than $$$!

Read the next Paragraph:::

LE UNITS WERE NEVER EVER UPON EVER SET UP FOR SCREAMING OPPORTUNISTS THAT DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO HELP GET THE UNITS WHERE WE ONCE HAD THEM,BUT BY GAWD AS SOON AS THEY SEEN SOME DECENT BULLS SURVIVING AFTER THE HUNTS WERE OVER THEY COULDN"T HANDLE IT & SCREAMED,THE DWR ISUUED MORE TAGS,OVER HUNTED THE COWS,THEN ADDED THE SOB'ING SPIKE HUNTS,GEEZUS!



>Unfortunately it will be the same
>people that pushed for increased
>tags and opportunity. That
>will be the first to
>complain when they get their
>tag and they cannot find
>a good bull.
>
>I don't think there should be
>400's on every unit but
>I do think there should
>be some units if you
>want to wait a little
>longer and hunt harder you
>can have a chance at
>a monster.
>
>We are just seeing the beginning
>of the end of great
>elk hunting in Utah.
>The effects of the increased
>harvest on the top and
>increased harvest on the bottom
>(spike hunting) are on a
>collision course over the next
>two years.
>
>
>Take out more than you brought
>in!


[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
when was the last time any of us found a dead bull or buck, and it was from old age.most people wouldnt know one if they did.
 
Kinda Funny elkun!

Must be 1000's of them!Though I've never found a dead animal I could Guarantee died of old age,some of the old BS I've found could have died of old age,who knows?

RULE #1!

TARDS/DWR/OPORTUNISTS don't let Game live near that long!

[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
You don't know what you are talking about.
Now we want to set management plans by what's
Hanging in the expo???

Way to go CAT!!!




2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Quiet wiley!!!

I looked for you Azz yesterday!

Where TH were you?

Even asked the ole boy at the Bowmans booth where you were & He said he hadn't seen you in the EXPO since it had started?

No,We (Not me included!)are setting management plans to decimate what's left of Utahs Game Herds by GREED & OPPORTUNISTS!

[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Everyone knows spikes don't grow into 400" bulls! And running cow hunts during the same time frame as limited entry hunts doesn't hurt the hunters success rates! Get a frik'n clue, would ya?!..
 
Right Foreman!

I think all Utah Big Bulls are Hauled in from Canada!:D



[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
you high or what? expo to much for you,. all them ticket sellers . (long legs. ect.) dead mr kitty mounted on the walls. over load you.? tell us old wise one. what did they do to you?
 
Heck I went for all the free stuff and my daughter wanted the pretzels and I wanted to make sure I get my San juan Elk tag this year too! other than that it sucked! Sorry I did get to meet a friend there too!
 
>Am I the only one that
gets sick of wilyeez posts??????????????

STHU Tikka!!!! Splain it to him CAT



2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
>>Am I the only one that
>gets sick of wilyeez posts??????????????
>
>STHU Tikka!!!! Splain it to him
>CAT
>
>
>
>2010 TOTALS
>P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
>UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS
>GONE


Lol!:D

[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Bessy,

Why do you keep blaming the UDWR? Maybe I'm way wrong here, but doesn't the Wildlife Board make the fish and game regulations in your state?
 
Move the majority of the rifle tags out of the rut, keep a few for those that want to wait 20-30 years to draw a tag. Move the large majority of the rifle tags to mid October, keep everything else the same and you will see quality come back quickly.
 
>Bessy,
>
> Why do you keep blaming
>the UDWR? Maybe I'm way
>wrong here, but doesn't the
>Wildlife Board make the fish
>and game regulations in your
>state?

What good is the DWR if they are not the BOSS with the Final say?

OK!

I'll add the WildLife Board to the List!

Everybody Happy now?





[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
There was a study done and presented at the CWMU meeting this past week. It showed the relationship between B&C score and % of bucks harvested. When harvesting 10% of the bucks each year (that's the avg. % for Utah CWMU's), the average buck taken was like 150 if I remember. To get that up over 170 the harvest had to be reduced to 5%. What would be the elk equivalent to a 170" deer, 330? 340? And to get an average score that high we can only kill 1/20th of the bulls each year? To me it is a total waste of the resource to manage our high-volume units for this kind of trophy quality. Go ahead and leave a few trophy elk units for the handful of people that care about score, and let them wait 20 years for a tag. Opening up the bigger units like Wasatch and Manti to more tags is good management of game and hunters, and they should continue giving out more tags until the bull:cow ratio is at objective! This nonsense of harvest age objective is ridiculous.
 
Here is my long-winded take on it--

"We" is the public/mandates from the Wildlife Board.

We had 1-3 year old bulls on many units (1994-2000). We wanted 6-8 year old bulls.

We stopped most of the mature bull hunting to reach the goal of 6-8 year old bulls.

While we waited for the baby bulls to become 6-8 year old bulls there were very few permits issued. Those who drew the permits shot bulls that were smaller "inch" wise and on the younger side. This is when a 320 bull was awesome and a 350 stopped traffic.

As the bulls started to age, permit numbers were still low. The lucky permit holders were able to "shop" for bulls and kill the best of the best. This is were we started to see more of those 350+ and a few 380-400 sprinkled in.

Then, we had a glut of bulls "come of age". Some of these bulls were 400+"ers. Some were 350+"ers. Most of the bulls coming of age were 260-310. Permit numbers were still being held low and there were many 370-400+ bulls killed by the lucky tag holders' shopping. Bulls' ages were averaging over the 6-8 we had desired.

But not many permit holders were shooting the 8 year old 290 bull or the 310 5x6. Those bulls were counted as part of the OVERALL herd objective. We had to kill bulls to remain in the herd population objective agreements and in the average age objective.

So now those "lower quality" bulls are being killed by issuing more permits. A side-effect of that is most of the best gene bulls are killed before they reach their full potential.

As I see it there are only 2 choices if you want more 400" bulls-
-Lobby your local land managers, politicians, landowners, and livestock interests to have unlimited elk on their shared lands. This will allow you to carry all those 260-310 bulls without having to kill them. (good luck)
-Give the UDWR an alternative way to kill those 6-14 year old 260-310 bulls.

We can't select the best of the best every year and not remove the lesser of the less (that is if you think a 290 11 year old 5x6 is less).
 
El Matador and packout I agree with you.

We should not manage our elk herds by age class alone. NV has done research on age and b&c score. After age 7 genetics and feed have more to do with good scoring bulls than age.

There are alot of 290-310 6-8 yr old bulls that will never be 350 bulls.

Keep a good mix of units. 4-5 yr old bull ave 5-6 yr old, and 7-8 yr old bull units. Have management hunts in the 7-8 yr old bull areas to kill the 7-14 yr old 5x5 or 5x6 300 class bulls.
 
As somebody who is building deer points, so doesn't have a dog in this fight... let me say this.

I have heard "greed by opportunists" used in posts as to why too many bulls have been killed over the last 5+ years. Is it any more greedy to want to allow people to hunt than it is to sit on 14 points and expect to be one of very few people on the mountain each year.

My friend is 21 years old and has 7 elk points. Unless he is very lucky or DWR dramatically increases bull tags, HE WILL BE 81 YEARS OLD BEFORE SEEING A SAN JUAN RIFLE TAG. That is with the current tag numbers, which many of you say is too high.

So who is really being greedy in all this?

I am not pointing fingers, all I'm saying is that "greed" only depends which side of the point fence you are sitting on.

Grizzly
 
Well then Grizzly, he will have enough years under his belt by then that he should kill a 400" bull when he draws! Just kidding man, LOL!
 
c-c. why not go back to a 28 day hunt . you choose what to hunt with, when we started kissing every body azz , bow' muz. with thier own hunt is when we started down hill,.not riffle huting in the rut.
 
>>>Am I the only one that
>>gets sick of wilyeez posts??????????????
>>
>>STHU Tikka!!!! Splain it to him
>>CAT
>>
>>
>>
>>2010 TOTALS
>>P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
>>UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS
>>GONE
>
>
>Lol!:D
>
>[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
>
>If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM
>TO ME!
>
>
>
>
>Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
>


Hey STTM are you going to slain this to me like WW said?????
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-13-12 AT 05:58PM (MST)[p][blockquote]"-Give the UDWR an alternative way to kill those 6-14 year old 260-310 bulls."[/blockquote]

I don't think there's any good way to selectively kill those bulls. I agree with your take on things though, and I think the same thing is happening on LE deer units. The only way I can think of to get those junk bulls killed would be to issue a boat load of tags every 8-10 years. The San Juan unit has roughly 325 mature bulls and over 500 total bulls, according to the latest counts. And they give out about 100 tags which = ~70 dead bulls each year. If they gave out 500 tags for one year only, success would drop to 50% or less and you'd harvest most of the mature bulls, junk bulls included. Quality would then increase over the next 3-4 years and you'd have some very high quality again for 5 years. You need to prune the herd back pretty hard once in a while if you want it to keep producing fruit.

That's my thought for the trophy units like San Juan, Pahvant, Book Cliffs, etc. Higher volume units like Wasatch, Manti, Nebo should just give out enough tags to where 290" bulls are getting harvested.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-12 AT 00:10AM (MST)[p]So griz, you want to open up SJ so that he can draw a tag at 30 years of age? Why TF would he want it then? you make 0 sense.SJ is what it is because of limited harvest.

PS, he can draw a good tag this year if he wants to HUNT.
 
Well REDDOG!

They don't wanna take/wait their turn!

They think everybody with 7 points should be able to draw the Unit they choose with a whoppin 7 points!

The TARDS just don't realize not every TARD can hunt Trophy Bulls every FRICKEN year,they don't look in to the future as far as tomorrow morning,if you left it up to the TARDS,we wouldn't have JACK #### left in one year!

TARDology at it's Best,only in TARDville!

Before You all start talkin SMACK!

I fought against the Points/Draw System many years ago saying it wasn't fair to young hunters,hell it ain't even fair to people that started in to it in the beginning!

It ain't gonna matter if drastic changes ain't made soon,your points won't be worth the paper they're posted on unless you want a chance at a DINK/PISSCUTTER!









[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
I agree 110% with what "Show Them To Me" says!...Exactly the reason I cashed in my points last year....I could see the rapid decline in the trophy quality along with having a Great hunting experience going to "Hell" on these Limited Entry, once in a life time tags...especially in my neck of the woods...I feel very fortunate in killing the bull that I did...Thanks for the nice comments "Show them to me" and it was great meeting you at the Expo!

KP
 
I have a question, why is the "quality" crowd so adamant against moving the rifle out of the rut? It would solve all the problems you guys are talking about, increased opportunity and increased trophy quality. So why is everyone so against it?
 
Coyote_chaser, that is a very legitimate question. Our hunting laws are made by the Wildlife Board for the most part, and the Wildlife Board does what the "conservation" groups tell them to. These groups don't give a flying rat's a$$ about creating opportunity, they only care how much money the tags are worth. Moving the rifle hunt out of the rut is a fabulous idea for hunters, but it would seriously de-value the rifle tags. That's why SFW, MDF, etc. will never push for such a thing. If you were given 300 tags each year for your business, would you be in favor of a change that cuts their value in half? These groups have repeatedly convinced the Wildlife Board to make changes that were 100% contrary to what the public, biologists, and RAC's wanted. All those opinions don't matter to the WB because money talks, and low tag #s + rut hunts = big money.
 
>I have a question, why is
>the "quality" crowd so adamant
>against moving the rifle out
>of the rut? It would
>solve all the problems you
>guys are talking about, increased
>opportunity and increased trophy quality.
>So why is everyone so
>against it?

Here we go again!
Thanks for not telling us how EASY it ALWAYS is during the rut.
BUT, You make a good argument and I'm rather open to it... to a point.
Your proposal would HELP the "plug" but it won't cure everything. Those who want to hunt trophy bulls often will start thinking they should hunt every 3 years instead of every 10 years. People would still be unhappy. I remember when NOBODY ever had a chance to kill a big bull. the hunt was out of the rut with lots of tags issued. I've seen the "good old days" and they just weren't that good for big bulls. We shot a ton of bulls but the big ones were VERY RARE.
There is NO "right" answer to the problem. It's quite simply that the demand outstrips the supply and always will no matter how we run the seasons and permits.
I hunted elk late this year and the bulls were not harder to find, they stayed put more, were in the open more but didn't bugle as much (kind of a trade off).
You'd be hard pressed to convince me that moving the season dates and bumping the tags 2x or 3x would result in better trophy quality.

Best regards,
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-12 AT 03:40PM (MST)[p]I have never advocated bumping tags 2-3 times the current amount. But you could easily increase tags if success rates were lowered by moving the rifle out of the rut. If hunts are during the rut for any species tags have to be limited or you will kill quality off and quickly.

And rifle elk hunts during the rut are easy. Everyone knows that, it might not be "easy" to kill a 380+ bull, but it is easy to kill a bull elk. Hence the 90+ percent success rates.

I really do hope they make changes soon, I just get sick and tired of people complaining about no big bulls when we are hammering the chit out of them during the rut. There are other ways of creating quality hunts besides cutting tags to 20 and allowing rut hunts. People just don't want to put the effort in, and SFW etc cant sell tags for $15,000 if you cant rut rifle hunt. Its sad.
 
I will gladly stop crying as soon as you and your cronies stop crying about quality bulls all the while campaigning for rifle rut hunts with extremely limited tags! Deal? :) But you and I both know that will not happen, so get used to hearing from me!
 

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