Expo Contract Change/Or Not

[grizzly]

Just a heads-up...

In reference to page 100 of the RAC Agenda for December meetings which start this week...


The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources is proposing that the Division and the current Expo contract holder be able to mutually extend their contract for an additional five years.

I know many of us wanted this current five year contract to expire so additional conservation organizations had the opportunity to bid on the Expo in an open and fair way.

I am not writing this to get into a SFW is better or worse than MDF, RMEF, UWC, or any other organizations. I simply feel public and open bidding is ALWAYS better when referencing public property (big game tags) than two people working behind closed doors.

Whether or not SFW wins the bid for the next five years, I don't really care. But I do think other groups should have the opportunity to make their case as well.

And just to clarify what is in question... the current proposal would require $1.50 of every $5.00 application fee be used for wildlife projects, the remaining $3.50 is retained by the conservation organization for Administrative Expenses.

My thought is another group could potentially guarantee a higher ratio of the application fee to wildlife, or a certain amount of additional revenue generated by the Expo goes to wildlife (this could include ticket revenue, booth rental, advertising, concessions, etc...).

We don't know how much money the Expo generates or how much could possibly be generated for wildlife, but doesn't the State of Utah owe it to us to find out?

Grizzly

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2014-12_rac_packet.pdf

 

[TOPGUN]

The way DP has them in his back pocket it's probably a done deal already, regardless of whether any other organization tries to put in the necessary paper called for to try for the contract!

 

[Hawkeye]

Grizzly-

Thanks for giving everyone a heads up regarding this important issue. I have two concerns regarding the proposed amendment to the Convention Permit Rule.

First, I would like to see a requirement that a larger portion of the application fees be used for actual conservation. Like you, I am concerned that the conservation groups are allowed to keep 70% of the application for administrative expenses (salaries, bonuses, consulting fees, etc.). This was the primary concern that we raised with the Wildlife Board back in 2012, when there used to be no requirement that any portion of the application fees be used for actual conservation projects. While a requirement that 30% of the revenues be used for actual conservation is a ?baby step? in the right direction, we can and should do much better. Why not impose the same requirements that the DWR imposes with Conservation Permits ? that 90% of the application fees be used for approved conservation projects and the groups keep 10% for administrative expenses.

Second, like you I am very concerned that the DWR is proposing an amendment that would allow the DWR and the conservation groups (with Wildlife Board approval) to extend the Convention Permit contracts for an additional five-years. If passed, this would mean that once a group or groups were awarded a Convention Permit contract they could potentially have that contract in place for up to 10 years. As we saw in 2012, the DWR and the Wildlife Board were extremely reluctant to make any changes to the program while a contract is in place. Therefore, this proposed amendment would essentially prevent the public from requesting changes or improvements to the program for up to 10 years at a time. I think this is a very bad idea that is completely unnecessary. The explanation given by the DWR and the conservation groups is they need a long term contract in order to secure a convention center and the other facilities to host the Expo. However, five years is long enough. If the groups cannot make arrangements to host the Expo with a five-year contract in hand then there must be other problems. I personally believe that this explanation is a smokescreen and a pretext to justify locking up the Convention Permits for up to 10 years at a time without allowing the public an opportunity to comment on the process. Plus, the way the proposed rule is currently drafted, then DWR and the conservation groups could potentially use this amendment to extend the current agreement so that it does not even come up for renewal in 2016. I don't think that was the intention of the DWR or the conservation groups but that issue should be clarified in the proposed rule amendment. If the extension language passes, it should only apply to future contracts ? not the current agreement that was signed back in 2010.

Please take the time to attend your RAC meetings and voice your opinion on this important issue. The meeting times are set forth below:

CR RAC ? Dec. 2nd 6:30 PM
Springville Civic Center
110 S. Main Street, Springville

NR RAC ? Dec. 3rd 6:00 PM
Brigham City Community Center
24 N. 300 W., Brigham City

SR RAC ? Dec. 9th 7:00 PM
Beaver High School
195 E. Center St., Beaver

SER RAC ? Dec. 10th 6:30 PM
John Wesley Powell Museum
1765 E. Main St., Green River

NER RAC ? Dec. 11th 6:30 PM
Wildlife Resources NER Office
318 North Vernal Ave, Vernal

Board Meeting ? Jan. 6th 9:00 am (Tuesday)
DNR Boardroom
1594 West North Temple, SLC

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal

 

[Birdman]

The rules for the convention permits state that the permits are available to eligible conservation organizations for distribution through a drawing or other random selection process held at a wildlife convention in Utah open to the public.

What other organization has a wildlife expo in Utah.

 

[grizzly]

Birdman, I feel you're asking the wrong question.

The right question is, "Which conservation organizations are willing and capable of hosting an Expo in Utah, and which organization would most benefit Utah wildlife?" as that is the stated purpose of the Convention Tags in the first place.

I can't imagine anybody preferring closed door, non-competitive bids, to an open and fair process when dispersing public property.

If no other conservation organization wants to compete for the bid... so be it. We can maintain status quo. But for all any of us know a larger national conservation organization (and thus capable) would like to put on and manage the Expo and would return more revenue to Utah wildlife. Maybe the current contract holder would raise their bid to keep the contract, either of these only would benefit hunters and wildlife.

I simply want transparency from Utah DWR so we can be sure they are taking seriously their responsibility to maximize Convention Tag revenue in the best interest of wildlife.

Grizzly

 

[grizzly]

Thanks for the dates Hawkeye, people can also find the email addresses for the Wildlife Board and all RAC members on the UDWR website.

If you can't attend, emails would still be worthwhile.

Grizzly

 

[elkassassin]

PEAYDAY Ain't No Dummy!

And I don't see How you're gonna take His Business away from Him!








[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY

 

[Hawkeye]

The Central RAC is tonight and the Northern RAC is tomorrow. If you have questions or concerns regarding Convention Permits or the proposed changes to the Convention Permit Rule then please come out and participate. As Grizzly mentioned, you can also find the email addresses for members of the Wildlife Board and RAC at this link: http://wildlife.utah.gov/rac-members.html

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal

 

[grizzly]

>PEAYDAY Ain't No Dummy!
>
>And I don't see How you're
>gonna take His Business away
>from Him!
>



elkassassin, You may be right, but I'm not going to sit around and do nothing if I think a small action could benefit the wildlife that I love. I was unable to attend the Central RAC meeting tonight I so sent emails to all the members. I received two emails back, both agreeing with my position that there should be a public bidding process.

If I can get out of my business meetings on Wednesday in time to attend the Northern RAC, I'll be there. I did however email all the Northern RAC members just in case I can't make it.

I am beginning to believe the state legislature and RAC/Wildlife Board/DWR truly believe the most prevalent conservation organization in the state actually represents the majority of Utah's sportsmen and their views. If nobody tells them otherwise, can we really blame for the decisions they make?

Grizzly

 

[elkassassin]

Not gonna Argue with You!

But where will the Money go that is Bid to get the EXPO Contract?

I HATE what Money has done to Our Sport!

Hate PEAYDAY as you will!

But give the Man Credit!

Gambling was Flat out Illegal until He brought this Lottery to Town!

As soon as somebody starts making money other people can't stand it or they want their piece of the Pie!

I don't agree with everything the SFW does!(And Never have!)

PEAYDAY did once upon a time Help get Our LE Elk units where they shoulda been as far as Quality at one time!

Too Bad Him/and others couldn't keep the Quality of them Units where they should be rather than where they are now!

Due to Greed the Quality of the Units have went down hill Big Time!

I don't Blame just one person or just one Entity for it!

Maybe somebody should start a Contract Change for the DWR?

So Grizzly?

Let me ask you this?

Let's say You & others get the 'CHANGE' you're after?

And let's just say there is a change in the Contract!

Will things Really CHANGE?








[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY

 

[Robiland]

I went to the RAC last night and it was very interesting. When the Expo tags came up, the conversation was about the contracts can be extended from 5 years to 10 years. I think that is way too long. I like the expo but to lock it up to 1 group for 10 years??? I dont think anything public should be locked up for 10 years without public say or input. The thing is, is that if they are doing a good job then there will be no issues for them to renew the contract, right? So why lock it up for even longer?

They said it would help SFW/MDF get long term reservations with the Salt Palace, but they also just mentioned in the same meeting that they were just negotiating with the Salt Palace over Reservations for the Expo. So I dont think it matters 5 or 10 or 2 or 4. Just my opinion.

It was sad to see 3 of us, average Joes and 4-5 SFW and UBA people there. Thye even had 1 anti hunter there that commented. So we as average JOES NEED TO STAND UP AND MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD!!!

 

[grizzly]

>
>Not gonna Argue with You!
>
>But where will the Money go
>that is Bid to get
>the EXPO Contract?
>
>I HATE what Money has done
>to Our Sport!
>
>Hate PEAYDAY as you will!
>
>But give the Man Credit!
>
>Gambling was Flat out Illegal until
>He brought this Lottery to
>Town!
>
>As soon as somebody starts making
>money other people can't stand
>it or they want their
>piece of the Pie!
>
>I don't agree with everything the
>SFW does!(And Never have!)
>
>PEAYDAY did once upon a time
>Help get Our LE Elk
>units where they shoulda been
>as far as Quality at
>one time!
>
>Too Bad Him/and others couldn't keep
>the Quality of them Units
>where they should be rather
>than where they are now!
>
>
>Due to Greed the Quality of
>the Units have went down
>hill Big Time!
>
>I don't Blame just one person
>or just one Entity for
>it!
>
>Maybe somebody should start a Contract
>Change for the DWR?
>
>So Grizzly?
>
>Let me ask you this?
>
>Let's say You & others get
>the 'CHANGE' you're after?
>
>And let's just say there is
>a change in the Contract!
>
>
>Will things Really CHANGE?


If an open bidding process either forced SFW to commit more Expo funding to wildlife or the bid was awarded to a group that committed more to wildlife, then we would have a proper check and balance and a transparent way to verify our money was used as we expect it to be used. That is what would CHANGE.

I don't know how many times I need to say it, this is not anti-SFW, this is a pro-wildlife vote that I would like to see.

Grizzly

 

[grizzly]

Robiland, thanks for going last night. Lack of participation is the problem, if only one group is heavily represented at meetings, of course RAC is going to vote in their agenda... it's the only option they are truly presented. And they probably believe that is the desire of the average hunter.

Was there an actual vote on Expo tags or just discussion? Two Central members emailed me to say they agreed with my emailed comments but I know one of them couldn't even attend last night.

Grizzly

 

[Hawkeye]

Grizzly-

There was a discussion and a vote. Following the discussion, a motion was made to accept the DWR's proposed rule change without the 5-year extension language. The motion only got one vote and did not pass. Then a motion was made to accept the DWR's proposed rule amendment in its entirety. I believe that motion passed with a 5-3 vote.

One other note, the DWR representative (Kenny) did say on the record that the DWR would not allow the groups to extend the current contract. In other words, the 5-year extension language, if passed, would only apply to future contracts.

Thanks to those who attended last night. I hope that some of our fellow sportsmen will be able to attend the Northern RAC this evening.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal

 

[huntin50]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-14 AT 09:52AM (MST)[p]I'm a little surprised that so few people bothered to attend the central rac meeting. The low attendance could be the following. 1. Hunters were busy.
2. Hunters were not interested in going. They don't care.
3. Hunters might believe that things wouldn't change anyway.
4. Instead of all the application fee going to NV some are going to Utah wildlife. Some is better than none.
5. Some hate the expo, some like it. This won't change.
6. I know it takes a lot of work and planing to put on the expo, I wonder what percentage of revenue it would take to be successful and also give the best bang for our buck in terms of helping our future hunting opportunities. If another group did win the contract, could they garrentee attendance and revenue numbers, vendor support,entertainment,a successful expo, and a certin amount of money going to wildlife?
7. The expo is a show case for hunting and wildlife, it brings money to the State.

Personally I don't believe it makes very much difference to most resident hunters, who runs the expo, or if there even is an expo. It is 200 permits. Draw odds won't change much. Non Res hunters get the short end of the stick, just like most non res hunters get it in other states as well. Maybe others feel the same way and that is why attendance is so poor at rac meetings.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Hawkeye]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-14 AT 11:15AM (MST)[p]Greg-

Good post. I agree with most of your comments. I think the three main reasons average sportsmen don't get involved are: (1) We are all busy; (2) We don't know how to get involved; and (3) We feel like it doesn't really matter if we get involved and voice our opinions at the RAC and Board Meetings. I have spoken with many sportsmen who feel like it is a waste of time to attend a meeting and voice their opinions. Right or wrong, many people feel like the RACs and Wildlife Board do not listen to the average sportsmen. Instead, they listen to the DWR and the representatives of conservation groups, and many decisions are made before the public meetings even take place. Whether this is reality or perception, I believe that it prevents many sportsmen from taking the time and effort to get involved.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal

 

[elkfromabove]

>LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-14
>AT 11:15?AM (MST)
>
>Greg-
>
>Good post. I agree with
>most of your comments.
>I think the three main
>reasons average sportsmen don't get
>involved are: (1) We are
>all busy; (2) We don't
>know how to get involved;
>and (3) We feel like
>it doesn't really matter if
>we get involved and voice
>our opinions at the RAC
>and Board Meetings. I have
>spoken with many sportsmen who
>feel like it is
>a waste of time to
>attend a meeting and voice
>their opinions. Right or
>wrong, many people feel like
>the RACs and Wildlife Board
>do not listen to the
>average sportsmen. Instead, they
>listen to the DWR and
>the representatives of conservation groups,
>and many decisions are made
>before the public meetings even
>take place. Whether this
>is reality or perception, I
>believe that it prevents many
>sportsmen from taking the time
>and effort to get involved.
>
>
>Hawkeye

And the irony of all of that is that all the average hunter would have to do is SHOW UP and SPEAK UP (or even EMAIL!) once or twice a year!

The DWR is mandated to do what the Wildlife Board directs them to do regardless of what they would prefer to do. And the Wildlife Board is usually mandated by the RAC outcomes. Many of those DWR presentations at the meetings are given because of the mandates and, like the public defender, they have to come up with the best possible presentation they can to get the proposal accepted even if they don't like the proposal. Ultimately, it's all about the numbers! The RAC can justify ignoring 3 or 4 individual hunters who oppose (or support) a proposal, but they couldn't justify ignoring 20 or 30. Each individual speaker has 3 minutes, and 60 to 90 minutes of listening to opposition will have an impact and YOU will establish the mandate! Yea, I know, it doesn't always work that way, but that's all the more reason to keep at it.

If it's important enough to you to talk about it on the internet, it's important enough to show up at the meeting (or at least send an email).

 

[Utah400Elk]

I am no longer a Utah resident so I don't feel that the Utah expo is my fight. If the state of Utah wants to give their tags to SFW/MDF with little to no oversight...they get what they deserve.

When I was a Utah resident I was involved and attended regular RAC meetings. I was a committee of a conservation organization and did whatever I could to help Utah Wildlife. I was at the central RAC meeting when the Expo was proposed. The vast majority of the crowd was against the expo. The central RAC didn't listen to the people in attendance. We were all given a few minutes to respond to the proposal (with the notable exception being Don Peay who was given a lengthy time to speak) and the vast majority were against the expo. The RAC had several SFW members who voted to support the expo. It seemed clear to me that the decision was done before the vote. One of the RAC members ( I wish I remember who it was) recommended that the SFW RAC members not vote because of the obvious conflict of interest. Instead of recognizing the obvious conflict the SFW RAC members voted to recommend the Expo.

I stopped going to the RAC meetings shortly after the big Expo meeting. I didn't feel they cared to listen to the crowd and I felt the RAC system was a waist of time. As I have said, I am no longer a Utah resident and I am glad to have moved away from the wildlife politics/practices of Utah.

 

[wileywapati]

No surprise but I have a few issues with all of this

1 30% going back on the ground is a good start but ain't near enough.

2 there needs to be an INDEPENDENT AUDIT, not SFW or MDF emailing
The DWR an excel spreadsheet they created but an honest 3rd party audit of
Exactly where our funds are going. Is this money from sportsmen being
Used to restrict stream access?? Is it being used in lobby efforts to bulldoze
Leks?? Don't take sportsmen money then use it to reduce opportunity or
Access.

3 if this was in fact a Division proposal to ultimately tie these tags up for 10
Years with no modifications or recourse, I'd like to know which employee proposed this, who approved it and why both are still employed. They sure as
Chit aren't looking out for wildlife, they are looking out for the expo.

If MDF, the contract holder for these tags had not thrown the "we have a contract,
We don't need to do chit" line a couple years ago when asked to designate some
Of these fees to actual wildlife we wouldn't be here today.

Nutshell more of these funds for wildlife. Show us where the money is going and
Hold accountable the Division employee that is worried more about making a profit for the expo than benefitting our wildlife.

Carry on





"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012

 

[RoadlessHunter]

I'm surprised it took you that long to figure out that RAC meetings were only held to tell us what they had already decided.

 

[grizzly]

>3 if this was in fact
>a Division proposal to ultimately
>tie these tags up for
>10
>Years with no modifications or recourse,
>I'd like to know which
>employee proposed this, who approved
>it and why both are
>still employed. They sure as
>
>Chit aren't looking out for wildlife,
>they are looking out for
>the expo.
>
>If MDF, the contract holder for
>these tags had not thrown
>the "we have a contract,
>
>We don't need to do chit"
>line a couple years ago
>when asked to designate some
>
>Of these fees to actual wildlife
>we wouldn't be here today.

wileywapati, the proposal is page 100 of the pdf I referenced in my original post.

It is on DWR letterhead and from "Kenny Johnson, Administrative Services Chief"

Grizzly

 

[SnowsNBlues]

Utah400elk.. your comments are spot on.sad but true.

 

[grizzly]

My work meetings went late and I couldn't make it to Brigham City. Anybody want to fill us in on what happened?

Grizzly

 

[BillyBoB]

I've read this thread and there are some great posts from some guys that I know care about wildlife. I also believe it's a meeting to tell us what they've already decided. The discussions in the back rooms before the meeting begins...I know it happens.

Hawkeye brought up three different scenarios in a earlier post why possibly sportsmen don't show up. For me, its a combination of them. I've been to enough meetings to know that what I say or others say, don't matter. Period. We all have families and jobs to do so attending those meetings are and can be difficult. But like I stated before. I don't feel that it matters what I have to say. So why go? Honestly I just read this thread and feel bad that I didn't know sooner when these meetings were gunna take place. Maybe I would have attended. Maybe not. Either way, alot of folks probably feel like it's a waste of time to attend.

But I agree with everything Grizzly has to say and hope that alittle more can be done for the wildlife with the decision making on the contract(s) instead of putting more money in some arrogant,greedy folks pockets.








Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."

 

[fishon]

Here is an observation from my perspective which is from a different vantage point then all of yours.

As you know I along with Don created the hunt expo and the convention permits. I will not go into the story of how it came about but rest assured I know more about how and why it was created and how it was suppose to benefit wildlife then all of you put together.

A significant amount of the money generated by the public tags was promised to go on the ground in Utah for wildlife. To this point I see no proof of that happening over the last 8-9 years. It does not mean it has not happened I just see no proof of such.

The proposal to guarantee $1.50 of every $5.00 goes back to wildlife will be significantly more then ever has gone back to wildlife. I would simply embrace the fact that they are offering to do that and be happy with it.

The 10 year agreement is another thing. That is absolutely ridiculous and should not be allowed with a public resource IMO.

The question you should be asking is why 10 years? It has nothing to do with locking down the Salt Palace and everything to do with locking out anyone else that might be a threat to them to take the permits.

This should not be a surprise to anyone.

I personally will never apply for those tags until the lions share goes back to wildlife. To me that would have to be a number greater than %50 and closer to %75. Yes there are expenses to running the draw but don't be fooled into believing it is more than about %10-%15. Remember I was part of it and I know how much it cost to run the draw.

Anyway you wont see me at any racs or wildlife board fighting for or against the expo or its permits. Not because I don't care but only because the only significant change that will happen will not come at the rac or wildlife board level. It will only come at a legislative level. Unless you guys want to tackle that monster then you need to embrace the split offer and fight the extended length.

I believe the expo does a lot of good for Utah and it's economy. I also believe it does little for Utahs wildlife. All the tags that sell would sell anyway at another event. They don't only sell because it is in Utah at the expo.

In fact if the tags auctioned went to SCI national convention they might sell for even more. But that is neither here nor there.

The expo is great for hunters that want to see cool things and people who want another chance to win a Utah Tag, It creates great buzz and awareness for hunting and for Utah.

At the end of the day the expo is not going away and neither are the tags. If sportsman can somehow get any amount of the tag money put back on the ground for UTAHS wildlife I say they should embrace it and be glad they get it.

So I leave you with this, go to the racs and the wildlife board but don't fight the split cause it may backfire and they may take the $1.50 offer off the board. But I would go and say NO to the 10 year agreement. That is the travesty of the whole deal. Locking out another potential group or expo from wanting to come to Utah or promote what Utah has to offer. There is nothing needed or capitalistic about a 10 year agreement, there is only greed and selfishness cutting everyone else out. And so it is clear to ALL of you. I will not be doing anything to try and get any of the expo tags for any event I may be part of. I am not interested in these tags and we will leave it at that.

On another note there is a for profit expo in Utah County February 27th,28th and MArch 1st 2015 at the Utah County Convention Center in Provo. This is the week right after the hunt expo.
www.thebigoutdoors.com

No there are no public tags you can pay your $5 and enter to win. There are no state tags to auction off to the highest bidder and there is no big name musicians to entertain you.

All there is a a lot of average everyday vendors and people promoting outdoor activities whether they be hunting, fishing, skiing, rafting, biking, golfing, camping, photography and many other things. It is a 1st time event and anyone that attends can be entered to win a fishing trip for 2 to Pybus Point Lodge in Alaska to go fishing for 5 days. (airfare not included) at no additional cost to all attendees.

If any of you have an interest in exhibiting at this event go to the website and apply for a booth www.thebigoutdoors.com.

Keep in mind, we all do things to make a living. You, me, SFW, Hawkeye, etc. We all choose the field we are in and we all make our own happiness. If you are a believer and supporter of the expo and the tags then by all means go and support and enjoy yourself to the fullest and may the lottery gods be with you. If you do not believe in the expo or the lottery tags then by all means don't go and go to the Big Outdoors Expo .

The expo and the tags will not go away and I don't want them to go away. All I hope is that the money generated by the expo tags goes back to Utahs wildlife like it was promised and intended to do.

I hope you all have a great holiday season and may you draw the permits you want in next years draws.

Hope to see you at the www.thebigoutdoors.com expo and if not I hope to see you in the woods.



Tony Abbott
www.thebigoutdoors.com