Evanston's meeting

B

bucklover

Guest
Several friends and I went to the meeting tonight with the Fish and Game. I felt there was some great discussion and some good ideas and comments. Everyone was respectful and concerned. Ideas were taken seriously and I feel will impact decisions that need to be made. The Fish and Game people handled themselves very professionally and for the most part, were concerned about the very same things everyone else was. I don't know if they'll see this but I think they are due a "thank you" for time they spend away from their families. I know they quite often get accused of not doing their jobs, but my experience tells a different story. We got checked twice this last fall. One time was on the antelope hunt where the warden walked 1 and 1/2 miles off the 2 track to come check us. The other was on the elk hunt when another warden hiked at least a 1/2 mile down a steep canyon to check us. It was great to see them out away from their truck. It's a pretty thankless job and they sure don't do it for the money.
 
Yes, the meeting was really good. For those which attended and participated in the Wyoming Range Mule Deer meetings, it was a similar format with the WY G&F acting as the facilitator of the meeting.

For those unfamiliar with the process; the WY G&F welcomed everyone there and explained the process. It was not just to discuss mule deer but to talk about all big game. The purpose of the meeting was to listen to the public and not tell the public how or what to think.

After a brief introduction, those in attendance were divided into 3 groups, with about 8 people per group.

Each group was tasked with the challenge to focus on big issues and suggest solutions for each issue. The G&F Department was there to answer questions but not to drive the discussions.

After approximately an hour, the three groups were reassembled and each group presented the issues and solutions their group developed.

In total, 130 people participated in the process.

WY G&F will write up all recorded ideas and each participant will receive a copy of the issues and solutions developed and discussed at the various meetings.

Lastly, the Department will now take these issues/solutions to the table as they discuss and prepare for the March Season Open House Meetings.

All in all, to a person, everyone that participated that I spoke with thought this was one of the most positive meetings they have attended and seemed enthused. The G&F guys also seemed very pleased with the issues and discussions. Some items may take hold while others will most likely take more time and discussion before anything comes from them.

There was a common theme that ran throughout the evening, at least in Evanston. All groups primarily focused on mule deer numbers and overall concern over the health of the areas deer. Youth hunting was also discussed, as was the need to address predation. Some discussion was held dealing with antler point restrictions but it was obvious that more explanation was needed as the intent was not to grow older deer but rather to attempt to significantly reduce harvest of yearling bucks. The idea was mainly to allow youth hunters to take any deer, as long as the population can sustain the level of harvest, while restricting adults to harvest only bucks with three points or more. Initially, some appeared to think this was about growing bigger bucks and did not understand the purpose was to allow yearling bucks a reprieve from hunting.

At least one of the other groups also mentioned the three point or better point restriction.

The test will really come at the next meeting when the G&F Department will either implement some of the ideas expressed or not. No promises were given that anything would or would not be put into play.

My thanks to those who took the time to attend and participate in the meeting and the G&F guys for the extra effort they have chosen to put forward. The Green River Regional Director and his staff are setting a new standard for the Department and all sportsmen should be thankful that we have these highly trained and dedicated individuals attempting to understand our issues and concerns as well as solutions.

Now I am off to attend the G&F Commission meetings being held in Cheyenne on Thursday and Friday.
 
Thanks for the update Bob! I also appreciate the time these folks spend away from their families and, as mentioned, it sure isn't for the money. I really wish I didn't live 1500+ miles away, as I would sure like to attend some of those meetings to offer some positive input and thoughts. In lieu of that I think I will be putting a letter together expressing my thoughts to the F&G and sending it directly to the Cheyenne Office.
 
Along with Game and Fish personnel and sporstmen there was representation from the state legislature and large landowners in the county. It was good to have this mixture in the same room to talk about the issues that we face together. This format was much better than previous meetings that I have attended when the seasons are already printed, the decisions made and it is too late to provide our input. This is a much better way for the Game and Fish to get face to face with the people that they are working for and see if we can work WITH each other instead of opposing each other. It is a big first step that I hope will lead to improved opportunities for all.
 
I was there too and (for the most part) am pleased with what took place. Both sides (hunters and the G&F) are equally concerned with our local mule deer herds and want to find solutions that will allow opportunity for hunters while maintaining herd recruitment (which is tricky).

Great comments and suggestions were made about our youth hunters and predator control. I hope these suggestions are looked at seriously and taken into consideration by our G&F.
 
I certainly hope you guys are correct in what you are saying about G&F.I have seen the deer problem coming for a long time,and have expressed my feelings many times to G&F.So much so,that my frustration level finally reached the point where I quit going to any meetings put on by them.Maybe I need to re-think my position.I am the eternal optimist,and maybe G&F are actually beginning to realize the dire situation with our deer herds.Thanks to all you guys for attending the meeting.I probably should have attended the Green River meeting,but it fell on the same night that our new group meets.We have a good relationship with G&F.Hopefully we can get this turned around.www.muleyfantic.com
 
Don't know who you are but the game and fish moderator in my break out session mentioned your group and was complimentary towards your efforts for Mule Deer in your area. I would give them another chance. I do think they are starting to realize that getting the sportsmen's support is much more productive than taking nothing but our complaints every year.
 
You guys are delusional,The Wyoming game and fish seemed just as sincere and concerned about our poor deer herds at the wyoming range muledeer meetings last summerer and early winter. But they still didnt change anything from a managment stand point this hunting season after we had the worst winter die off in 30 years. They had full length seasons issued the same amount of tags and let the same amount of deer get killed as always. All these meetings are for is to make the public think the Game and fish care and want to help our deer herds. In the end its business as usual for them and they have no plans on changing a thing. I will never go to another one of there meetings in my life i have alot better stuff to do in my spare time than get lied to for 3 to 4 hours by the wyoming game and fish. Trust me you will see they are full of ##### just wait tell next hunting season.
 
Sorry you feel that way. Over the years I have observed differently. A friend and I suggested a change in the length of an antelope hunt quite a few years ago. We asked them to extend a muzzleload hunt through the regular rifle hunt, with the muzzleload hunters having to wear hunter orange during that time. They thought it was a good idea and it was changed. Most of the contacts I have had with the Fish and Game have been very positive. There are always a few bad apples in any profession, but I for one appreciate their efforts and dedication. To bad you're pulling away from the process. If you're not willing to stay involved then the blame for problems should lay on you as much or more than anyone else.
 
For those that were unable to attend the meeting, this is an entirely new process. The true test will come for the G&F when it comes time for them to produce any suggested changes which came from the meetings. Without a doubt, they will not be able to accomplish everything which was thrown at them but I believe we will see some things change. This is nothing like the season setting meetings, the G&F guys were there to listen. Old habits are hard and at least one person reported back to me that the break-out session they participated in, the moderator interrupted and almost argued against some of the ideas thrown out by some in the group. Jeff Short, the local biologist, did a great job moderating the season I participated in. I know Jeff well enough to know that some of the points talked about he might not have agreed with wholeheartedly; however, he let the group have the discussion.

Nontypical, I also attended the meetings for the Wyoming Range. While nothing dramatic has happened, I do believe we are starting down a new path and making (slow) progress. The up date this winter was good but I did not like how it ended. At least we were able to have some pretty direct discussions and some problems were apparent to me. With the majority of sportsmen never showing up to these meetings, the G&F uses their absence to stop those attending the meetings from making substantive changes. Bucklover is right, we can not blame them when such a small number of people turn out. Wildlife management is not an exact science, with countless alternatives and options with sometimes quite different outcomes. Until enough sportsmen show up and support one or two key changes, the G&F will always error on the safe side and do nothing. Fear of the masses which never show up when issues are discussed and decisions need to be made will always trump the small numbers which attend.
 
The fact that the Wyoming Game and fish would even suggest letting youth hunters kill any deer just shows you how stupid and incompetent they are at managing deer. Its clearly a money issue all they want is more money why else would they let youth hunters kill does when our deer herds are rapidly declining. Do the math if one do lives to 5 years old and has twin fawns every year thats 25 deer in a 5 year time period that doe will produce if those fawns then all live to be 5 years old and all have twin fawns thats potentially 625 deer you can see how this adds up and how killing does is a bad idea. But yet the wyoming game and fish thinks its a good idea, once again all they care about is selling tags and making money and thats why I will not go to there meetings. They dont deserve our respect as sportsmans. And to think they want us to listen to what they say and tell us what to do even when its ridiculous( the antler law) but they wont listen to us when we tell them what we want.
 
I understand your concern for killing does. Many at the meeting felt the same way. However, it is not always a bad thing. Old does past their prime can just be a burden on available forage, without being able to produce fawns. I know, we don't have that problem right now, after last winter. We were still able to discuss the fact that if we don't recruit younger hunters, turning them into adult hunters, we have lost the battle of keeping hunting going at all. If young hunters can't taste success, in this day and age, with all the distractions available, they will quickly lose interest and turn to other things. We discussed in the meeting, understanding the low numbers of deer, that youth tags are still a good thing. However, maybe it would be better to allocate youth tags only in agricultural areas, or where deer are causing damage. This then opens up other difficulties such as getting land owners to allow hunters on their property to deal with problem deer, (and elk). There are so many problems and so many opinions as to how to deal with the problems. It's only going to get more complicated as time goes on, but with everyone staying involved in the process, including "you", we can hopefully continue to enjoy the thing we love to do the most, for many years to come.
 
You bucklover Have been brain washed by the wyoming game and fish or you are in fact a game warden or some affiliat. What need is there to let youth hunters go out and kill a female of a massively declining and dying species like muledeer when we have a over abundents of elk and hundreds of additional cow calf permits avaliable for these youth hunters to hunt and kill. Forther more will you explain to me how a 13 to 17 year old kid and his father can tell the different between a old doe that is no longer reproducing and a 2 year old doe that just didnt get breed the year before because there was not enogh mature breeding bucks around. Letting youths kill does or anybody for that matter is a terrible Idea and will with out a doubt ensure that our muledeer herds will continue to decline until there extinction.
 
Bob-I understand where you are coming from.I also understand that G&F are loathe to try anything new.IMO,that is because of the early 90's fiasco.The winter of '92-'93 was another winter that took many deer's lives.At that time,you could purchase as many as 13 deer tags and 9 antelope tags(I believe that was the '92 season).G&F did that because of an over abundance of both species.And there really was lots of critters back then.The public outcry was huge.I can remember seeing pickups with antelope piled up like a meat-wagon going through town.G&F took a pretty good drubbing over that.Seems like they came out a few years later and admitted they may have overdone it a bit.In their defense,they did what they thought was the right thing with regard to the carrying capacity of the winter range at that time.But because of that situation,many hunters lost confidence in G&F,and became very critical of them.I truly believe that is why G&F is so apprehensive to try anything new.Things are so different now than they were 20 years ago.We can't keep going down the same management path.It no longer is working.We have more people and less deer.Now,I'm no biologist,but when politics creeps into wildlife management,it can't be good.As soon as G&F realizes that they need to manage wildlife for the GOOD OF THE HERD(like they used to),maybe we'll get back on track.Sometimes when you are in charge of a resource,you need to make tough decisions that many people may not like.That's where G&F is now.Make the tough decision that will help the herd.NOT the hunter.If they need more money,RAISE LICENSE FEES.Quit worrying about what hunters think and do what's right for the resource!
 
You got it right SSakitas +1, I sat in the season setting meeting last year and they talked about how they needed to get more harvest on elk in the Wyoming range and they needed to extend the season later and all that, ten minutes later they came up with the proposal to let youth hunters kill does, WTF? They have beat the buck population down so bad through overharvesting that kids can't find a forkedhorn, so the solution is in letting kids kill does. What a great experience to go with dad and kill a poor doe, instead of having dad tell his kid that the deer need a little reprieve and maybe teach them about real conservation and how right now its a great opportunity to get an elk or two, instead lets just kill a doe, what a great ethics in hunting course that is. I must be really stupid, because I don't get it?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-12 AT 06:47PM (MST)[p]No, I'm not Fish and Game and I'm pretty sure I'm not brainwashed. If you'll re-read what I said, having too many deer is not a problem right now. You are absolutely correct in saying youth hunters should go hunt elk, rather than kill does. I would prefer that, too. My main point was: If we do not get the youth involved in hunting, then hunting will be a thing of the past anyway. Many dads are intimidated at the thought of hunting elk. That's sad, but if young people can get any kind of a positive experience involving hunting, then just maybe it will become important to them, and they will grow up to join our ranks. You are right in saying that it is probably impossible to pick out a non-producing doe, and now is probably not a good time to kill any of them. I would love to see a three point or better hunt for a few years, even if the Fish and Game claim studies say they don't work. There are so many factors involved in mule deer decline. I've lived in Wyoming since 1985, and watched them go through terrible killing winters and long unrelenting droughts. Doing away with predator poisoning didn't help things. Over harvesting after the long drought, just because they thought they would lose so many if we had a bad winter didn't help either. The continual slaughter on some of the highways probably kills more than hunters. Burn areas are replanted to benefit cattle, which benefits elk. I could keep going, but I think you see we agree more than disagree. My main point is, don't back away from the process, just because you're frustrated with it. If the Fish and Game are willing to start listening to the public, then now is the time to voice your opinions in hope of change. Just going and saying things to piss them off isn't going to help fix anything, and things need to be fixed. I'm getting old, but I think I still have 10 or 15 years of hunting left in me. I would like to think the opportunity will still be around for others after that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-12 AT 07:14PM (MST)[p]I realize the wyoming game and fish want to recruite more young hnuters. But what they dont realize is that ignoring the problem and refusing to do whats right by our muledeer is going to make the matter worse, some day if they dont do something know there will be no deer left for anybody to hunt. Another thing My kids will not grow up as deer hunters they will spend time in the outdoors experience nature but I will not take them deer hunting why because to me there is not enough deer left and its not right for them to go out and kill a buck when the overall herd could use that buck way more than my kids could. This is the Game and fish that made me feel this way and until they make a valiant effort to try something new from a managment stand point I will not change my mind.
 
NOW IS THE TIME TO REBUILD OUR BIG GAME HERDS.

IF THE GOAL IS TO DOUBLE THE MULE DEER POPULATION

STOP SHOOTING THE ONES THAT MAKE THE BABIES AND PASS ON THOSE LITTLE FORKY'S.

IT'S OK TO EAT A LITTLE TAG SOUP ONCE IN AWHILE.

WE DON'T NEED THE G&F TO CHANGE THE RULES.

WE NEED THE SPORTSMAN TO CHANGE HIS WAY OF THINKING AND TEACH THE YOUTH AND OTHERS HOW TO GROW THE HERD .

SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX,

HOW CAN WE GET THE HUNTER TO STOP WHACKING THE ANTLERLESS AND THE FORKY'S WITHOUT CHANGING THE REGS. I SAY THIS BECAUSE I HAVE ZERO CONFIDENCE IN THE F&G CUTTING ENOUGH TAGS TO CHANGE THE POPULATION FOR THE BETTER.

MY 2 CENTS
 
That really is the key guys and I think MULEY204 is 100% correct. The F&G may issue a jillion tags, but they can't force you to buy and use them!!! It's up to the hunting community to take care of the problem as much or more than it is the F&G if most don't think what they are doing is the proper route to take. It's also too bad that more parents don't feel like I and SS do and that is that you dont have to kill something to have a great time in the outdoors! We are having a total breakdown of the family structure in many hiouseholds and this is just another example of people wanting instant gratification! It is becoming more and more prevalent in our society and it sucks!!!
 
I agree, its dumb to allow kids to shoot mule deer does under the excuse of getting kids involved.

Its just amazing that parents are so lame they dont realize that Wyoming is flush with antelope...and they really are in need of thinning. Even more amazing is that many must think there are no whitetails that are also in need of thinning.

There is so much opportunity out there for kids other than mule deer does....
 
Add another +1 for SSakitas. It looks like I wrote his thoughts. Until the G&F stops managing for money ALL our herds are in trouble. I'm fed up with the G&F aswell. If they truly cared about our deer herds, we would have a 5 day season from Hwy.26 Idaho border to the Hoback Jct. Hwy.189 south to Hwy. 191 to I-80 then west to the Green River and south to the Utah border. Thats right no hunting the weekend this year.
If the G&F did that for the next 3 to 5 years and the winters were average we would be in good shape. It wouldnt take long before we see results.
If the G&F did that I would start to think different of them. The G&F is probably in debt and over spends to the point they dont know how to stop. Kinda like our Federal Gov. A 5 day season would most likely reduce the # of License sales. Taking money away from the G&F and opporunity from hunters. Thats why it wont happen.
We have plenty of elk and whitetail deer that will provide "opportunity".
 
Shorter seasons arent a bad idea at all.

If a proposal is going to reduce license sales, that difference has got to be made up somewhere. If management practices reduce tag sales, its only fair to raise RESIDENT license fees to address the short-falls in G&F funding via more intensive management.

WYG&F budgets are stretched thin...its unreasonable to expect them to do more with less. They're already at that point. Reduce revenue further and they will be doing less with less.

If we want more intensive management, we need to open our wallets. Resident deer tag is $38...cost to fill a wardens truck ONE TIME is likely near $80.

Houston...we have a problem.
 
Absolutely great discussion and some really good ideas. We don't all have the exact same ideas, but we do have the same long term goals in mind. The best way to lose this battle is to divide and separate. Maybe next year we can somehow discuss many of these issues, come to some kind of agreement here on MM and then all push for the same ideas as best we can, across the state. That would sure beat the heck out of tearing each other apart in discussions that don't change a darn thing. Thanks for all the good points. You made me re-think some things, and gave me a few other things to chew on. I'm a school teacher, and you are absolutely right in saying much of our social back bone is breaking down. It's sad to see how few kids get excited when the hunts role around. It makes me sick to see whats happened to the family. The best kids are typically those that still have roots imbedded in nature. Ranch and farm kids, families that hunt or at least do things together, parents that actually show up to support their students in activities. Many kids have no compass to guide and direct them in their lives.
 
BUZZH, Ive been saying for years the licenses for Res. should be higher. Even back when I wasnt making much money at all and just starting out with a family. For example it wouldnt hurt my feelings to see a deer tag at $100.00. Years ago I would have said here is the extra money for a deer license. I would have gone on with my daily bussiness. Now a days I want to see some changes for what i'm giving them. Just cant give them money and everything is ok. You know?

Is it unreasonable to expect them to do more with less? They are way over due to cut the fat. Lets face it its not just the Big Game they mismanage.
 
Oh yea, for got bucklover: Why do we need to wait til next year? I believe now is the time for cahnge, a year from now is a year wasted. Just my opinion.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-12 AT 10:37AM (MST)[p]Utah went to 5 day hunts and 3 day hunts, it didn't seem to work very well, neither do three point of better rules, why can't states seem to learn from each other?. The only cure for low deer numbers is better habitat conditions and the only cure to the poor quality of the hunts is multiple choice limited quota micro management, Nevada and Colorado style, its the only way. Im sorry its so hard to accept for many of you , but there is no other solution, and band-aids like 5 day hunts and three point or better hunts only prolong the pain, thereby causing more kids to quit hunting and poor crowded hunting conditions. we have Been there, and done that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-12 AT 09:56AM (MST)[p]By all means, if we can make changes this year, that would be great! I was just meaning, that this year's first round of meetings are over. The Fish and Game are coming back around, again in a few months. They are compiling and sending out, to all that attended the meetings, the suggestions and points of discussion. When that comes out, maybe we can all,(most) come together on a few key issues, and make another push in the next meeting. I'm hoping for some good changes. Time will tell.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-12 AT 10:13AM (MST)[p]
onthehunt---May I ask you what fat you would cut in the F&G budget that you're looking at, if you have even looked at it? Rather than cutting the budget of a Department that should be one of the most important in the state, IMHO the Wyoming residents need to look at giving a small percentage out of the General Fund to the F&G every year. The state is certainly not in financial difficulty and in this day and age when the Department is mandated to do so many more things than what they were 20 years ago, INHO it's time for all the taxpayers to anty up a little bit. It would probably only take a fraction of 1% to right the ship, along with raising the resident license fees a reasonable amount to allow the Department to do all it's supposed to be doing. Right now they will be lucky to keep up with inflation and in the near future will need to come back to try and raise NR fees for the people who are already putting more money into the budget than anything else. As far as I know, the only money they get from the General Fund is when an occasional Bill is passed to bail them out like for the new Office in Cheyenne that just opened last year.
 
Resident and Non Resident quota is the only way to have quality bucks with the long range guns, the shed hunters, the outfitting, the winter grounds and the predators.

We all have got to be willing to give up something "ALL" of us!!

Or we can be like Idaho and watch it slide away to nothing
 
Got your PM! I have to respectfully disagree that cutting biologists would be trimming fat and it's not the way to go about doing things. They are basically #1 in the hunting/fishing equation and if there aren't enough of them to do the job properly everything down the line will suffer!
 
Don't look for Wyoming G&F to try to raid the general funds of the state.Governor Mead has already been making massive budget cuts in other areas.Anyone making that proposal would have a hard time getting support in the state legislature right now.For that matter,even when we were rolling in the dough like we were a few years ago.I agree with onthehunt-cut a few biologist jobs.Years ago,many of the biological decisions were made by the wardens-BASED ON WHAT THEY SAW WITH THEIR OWN EYES WHILE OUT IN THE FIELD.Interesting concept;and one that G&F doesn't seem to use as much as they once did.Back in the day,wardens would stop and shoot coyotes,too.We have a complete change of philosophy in Cheyenne now.One that includes bluebirds,toads,ferrets,and many other non-game species.Not saying we don't need a few biologists around,because we do.Also,changing a hunter's mindset is a tough thing to do.Those of us who don't kill a buck every year are already there.How do you go about telling someone they don't need to kill a deer this season?
 
I have been listening with interest. There have been a lot of good ideas presented. There have also been a lot of bad ideas presented. One of the worst ideas is doing away with biologists and letting game wardens make decisions on deer regulations based on personal observations. These observations are probably no better than the ones made by me and the other hunters here. I wouldn't suggest that deer regulations be developed based on the random observations of anyone. To do a proper job of managing big game populations require a thorough understanding of the dynamics of those populations. It requires knowledge of what population parameters are important and which are not. It also requires knowing how to sample those population parameters so that they truly represent the population. It takes a trained professional to do this.

This may in fact be happening now. The biologists in this state may be aware of what needs to be done. What I question is what becomes of this information when it is passed up the line. Are the needs of sportsmen and the deer herds they depend on the primary concern. Are they put behind those of large private landowners, ranchers and the oil and gas industry? For example has the revelation that mule deer herds have declined tremendously in the Pinedale anticline since the current gas boom began had any bearing on management of those deer and their habitat? Is it more important in Wyoming to provide quality deer hunting or to keep deer numbers low to prevent problems with ranchers. I think this whole thing is a bit more complicated due to politics. Hunters until now have been silent and have only themselves to blame.
 
Good points,OWEH.If you'll look at my post again,I did not advocate doing away with biologists.Keep the big game and range biologists.Maybe we don't need quite as many toad and bluebird biologists,though.We all realize that the G&F has many entities to deal with-not just hunters.G&F can't control oil and gas development,weather,habitat loss,etc.But they sure can control when we hunt,how many of us hunt,and how long we hunt.Not to mention the weapons we hunt with.Why can't mule deer be managed differently than they have been?Do we need to wait until there aren't any left?Let's be pro-active about this,not re-active like we have been.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-30-12 AT 12:26PM (MST)[p]Since I'm 1500 miles away here in Michigan, I can't really follow every thing as it develops in Wyoming, but I thought the state was still in great shape budget-wise with the way gas, oil, etc. is booming. It sounds like that is not now the case from reading of cuts that you say Gov. Mead wants to make. It's a shame if the Legislature couldn't even earmark 0.1% or 0.005% of the budget to the F&G as important as it is to the overall well being of the state. Politics is definitely a big factor in the equation involving game populations and that will always complicate things besides weather, etc. The Warden I know out where I hunt is also a biologist and definitely does game studies that are turned in to his superiors because we've discussed it a number of times over the years. He makes no bones about it that he would rather do that full time because the enforcement end of the job is not nearly as fulfilling, if I might use that word because I can't remember his exact words. Why couldn't all biologists undergo law enforcement training and give them that dual function. I'm pretty sure the one I met several times doesn't have any enforcement authority because he doesn't even carry a sidearm like all Wardens do. It seems as that would put a lot more manpower to work doing enforcement that's needed and they are already on the payroll and out in the field where it all happens. What are others thoughts on this?
 
.Topgun, I have to disagree with you on getting some funds from the State general fund. If that ball starts to roll it will not be long and they will become one entity. If that happens then the need for hunters and their money goes away. Wolves lions and coyotes can manage the herds. I have often thought that is the plan and end to all hunting. Don't think otherwise

DZ
 
Why does the difference of tags sales got to be made up somewhere else? Thats like you having an employee and he isnt doing his job, but you still got to pay him b/c he has bills. WGF accountants need to quit managing mule deer herds.. I too stopped going to those meetings, after the meetings your all excited things are going to be done but in the end nothing happens. Tag sales will be the same. There isnt any deer b/c they dont get a chance to survive. Id disagree with them saying they are having a problem getting more hunters involved; i see more and more ppl out every year. I could care less if they were having a problem with recruiting more hunters. As of right now i have no faith in our mule deer herd ever coming close to a full rebound. I hope that im wrong
 
dz---I don't quite understand your statement that "they would become one entity" if they got General Fund money. Would you please explain that when you have time? Quite a few of the state F&G Departments get at least a small amount of General Fund money in their budgets, although most have probably been getting less and less over these trying economic times. In 1997 our MIDNR received 23% of it's budget from the General Fund and it dropped to 9% in 2007, the last year that I could easily find figures for. The latter figure amounted to only 1/3 of 1 cent of every tax dollar, so I doubt that the fraction I mentioned that maybe Wyoming could go to would result in any dire problems. It's either that or increase fees for the users, whether it's hunting/fishing licenses, ATV/Boat registrations, etc. From my standpoint, it's about time that residents of Wyoming, and especially Montana, start paying a decent license fee instead of riding the tailcoats of nonresidents. It is somewhat ludicrous when you look at the license structure for residents in both those states! Michigan actually went to a new means of paying for it's Parks this past year where there is a $9 checkoff box that you can add to your license plate fees each year that will be dedicated to Parks. My wife and I don't use the many Parks that are available, but value their importance and paid that extra for both our plates. It will be interesting if this change will receive acceptance from enough folks to run the system properly. The sticker you get in the mail that goes on your plate has an insignia to show you paid that $9 and they are supposed to ticket anyone in a Park with out that.
 
Topgun---I have had many conversations with People in the political arena about the funds for F&G. They and I believe that it is in the interest of the "Tree Hugger" group or whatever you want to call them to have the game animals managed by the State as a whole. If the funds are general funds then there is no need for licenses to be sold. Most on that side believe we should all live in big cities and never step into the outdoors. They believe that man only destroys the outdoors. Now I do not believe every tree should be a stump, but I do believe God give us the trees and the earth to use for our benefit. I know that it is difficult times to manage the money for F&G. I think they have to figure it out. The rest of us in the private sector does. If it is raising fees then that is what they should do. Does that mean they will sell less tags, yes then that is what will happen. I grew up around lots of poor people in Idaho, I have a lot of compassion for them as the tag prices go up. I have been to the meetings and heard all the reasons why. Just be careful thinking State general funds are the way to go.
 
Sorry, but I disagree with you on this and if you don't think the "Tree Hugger" people aren't already causing the F&G to use a lot of our money for other than hunting/fishing, I think you need to take your head out of the sand. There are so many non game species they are dealiing with and using our money for that it is completely out of control. Then throw in all the money they are forced to spend on wolves and grizzlies because of the Feds and it's no wonder they need more money! IMHO, everyone needs to be involved in funding of an agency that has such major ramifications and importance for residents and nonresidents alike! That statement is not only for Wyoming, but every state F&G because of their overall importance to the environment and economy. Many states reaiize that and do support their Departments with various percentages of F&G budgets being from General Funds. If all the others can do it, I see no reason why Wyoming can't when it is in the top five of all states for nonresident hunter numbers.
 
I do hear you on the nongame animals. Maybe they should take a lesson from Butch Otter and tell them we do not have the resources to deal with it anymore. We agree on most things and I can tell that I'm not going to change your mind on this. I just think it is a slippery slope that we will regret down the road.
 
I see that! Tell me this though. What were your feelings when the Legislature took General Fund money within the last several years to build the new F&G Office in Cheyenne, as well as the big redo of the Jackson Regional Office they recently completed because the F&G had no budget money to do those needed projects? It would seem to me that there wasn't a huge outcry when that was done, so I would think that what I'm talking about, as small as it would be, would fly.
 
I think all funds that they get help. My concern is that it turns into all funds go together than redistributed back out. At that point it does not matter if they sell Tags or not. Then the agenda of more predators and less hunters can move forward. I don't think that many people (hunters and fishers) will think getting general funds is a bad idea. But when they no longer have an option to go hunting or fishing then they will look at it as a bad idea. When you become dependent on someone else they make all of the decisions.
 
OK, Conspiracy theorys make good internet fodder, but they don't lead to good policy. Next I guess getting wildlife mitigation funds from huge oil companys will lead to them taking over the public lands and everything will become a giant oil field ? Idahos Butch Otter?, didn't he sign a bill to sell off millions of acres of public land to the highest bidder? Im sure he did, and thats a fact, not some congered up conspiricy theory about not being able to hunt or fish because of how the state of Wyoming wildlife dept got some funding. The whole idea behind getting additional funding is so the game and fish dept could feel like they could possibly sell LESS tags, not more, and not have tag sales be the big driving force behind game management.
 
I'm sure you have a politician that has never done anything that you didn't think was right. List it up for me, and I will see what dirt I can find. I thought that Butch did a great job standing up to the Feds on the wolves. Not that every other thing he has done is right. Call it a conspiracy if you want, but when the money comes so does its philosophies. I would rather see the F&G learn to manage the game with the dollars that is generated by the game. If that is done then they will have more interest in the game and the hunters. There is some serious issues with the management for $ and not the herd I agree.
 
politicians are just people,, but signing off to selling massive amounts of public land is a BIG thing and when a politician makes that kind of judgment, its should never be forgotten. Wolves can come and go, but once that land was sold, except for a very few people it would have been gone forever.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-12 AT 01:34PM (MST)[p]Butch Otter is good for nothing...including the wolf issue.

If he stood up so much against the feds on the wolf issue, then why did it take a rider that was supported by Mike Simpson and Jon Tester to get them off the list?

Otter is full of hot air...and $hit.
 
Something that people really need to think about is animals that compete with muledeer for food. Whitetails are prolific breeders keep them in check. They need to be cut back in numbers to allow more food for muledeer in bad weather times. Plus keep the predators in check. Quit shooting muledeer does for awhile. Wyoming fish and game IMHO is top notch. If you dont like them come to Missouri and you will see bad fish and game people. You will be ready to head back to Wyoming. I love Wyoming and hope things get better. Hope the winter is mild and passes quickly.
 
Just talked to my buddy and he went from Sheridan over the mountain Sunday night to work in Cody for two weeks. He said there is no snow down low on either side of the BigHorns and not that much up high and temps have been very mild all winter. It really looks like the animals are getting a break after a miserable time in some area last year.
The whitetails are really taking over in many of the drainages throughout the state and they do push mulies out after a while. I know the ranchers don't like them because most cherish their mulies and would like the WTs gone.
 
The whitetails around here only live down by the rivers where its mostly private land, I guess there could be a little displacement going on, but I wouldn't think very much. There are very few coyotes for some reason, I know there are some lions, but I have never seen a track around here, I think the lack of cover where a lot of the deer are during winter is the reason there aren't many lions, just windblown sagebrush in many places. These are mostly the same deer that live in the high country of region H, and possibly a little from Region G during the summer.
 
I know not all parts of Wyoming are the same. I think that anytime the deer are yarded up there will be predators. The reason we dont really see them more often is they hide better than the animals we hunt. It is vital to there existence and the old coyote is the master at breeding and hunting in my area. I assume they play a bigger role out west than most people think. The cat is as all cats the one that kills for sport and food. I read a statistic onetime that said a mature tom kills a deer a day. It doesnt take long to put a dent in a herd at that rate. I hunted by casper a few years ago and saw a pack of coyotes in the mountains that year. Two years later they were everywhere. Shoot them when you have a chance they, hunt in packs and the tactics they use is to run the prey to death. In a distance race in open or winter range a deer doesnt stand a chance. They can run all day long. Mild winter and predator control would probably help a ton and lay off the does for awhile. Let small bucks walk for a few years to help increase the buck population as well. Alot of people shoot smaller deer in the last few days of a hunt just to say they got one. It is legal but if people want more deer dont shoot just to shoot. Parts of Missouri people didnt even see a deer and that is in areas generally considered high deer number areas. I know in Missouri alot of this is due to the fact they give out alot of doe tags and some people think they need to fill all of them. I know of several guys that shot 4 or 5 does a year for several years. They cant figure out where the deer went. Sorry to ramble on, lets hope the muledeer get bback on track.
 
I love hunting out in Wyoming and hope to hunt go back until I cant do it physically. I think that a bunch of responsible hunters can help out the muledeer as much or more than the fish and game. I know im not a local, but im an honest NR that loves muledeer. Just because I have a tag doesnt mean I have to kill a deer. Id say dont shoot unless he is the deer of dreams. Tag soup wouldnt be all that bad if it was for the greater good of the herd. We all have that choice. Just dont shoot for the sake of shooting. Every little bit helps. I wish you all the best of luck.
 
galvanized. you my friend are spot on.The wyoming game and fish will not do whats right for our mule deer they have proved it. So its up to us as sportsman to do whats right if that means not killing a deer every year.Back when I still hunted alot I would go 4 or 5 years without killing a deer because I felt if I was going to kill a deer and take him from the herd he had to be a over the hill buck that had reached his prime. I passed up alot of deer in those days and ate my tags alot. But not once did it bother me because I did what was right and had hell of fun doing it.
 
Thank you sir (SSakitas). After all hunting is more than just killing. It is in my mind getting out in places you cant see from your couch and living life. It is about testing yourself and pushing yourself until you cant go any further. Then you get a second wind and go that extra mile. I did things out in the mountains I didnt think I could do and loved it even when it hurt. I think they could sell all the tags in the world and if there are guys out there like you the muledeer will win in the long run. Have a good day.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-12 AT 08:37AM (MST)[p]I am in full agreement with you guys on not shooting does unless the herd is near carrying capacity. Unfortunately there is an overwhelming number of NRs that have the mentality that they have to shoot something to take home because of the high price they paid for their license. Sad, but true, and thus the killing of does and young bucks that are the last ones that need to be culled in areas that are hurting!
 
GALVANIZED IS ON THE $$$$$$ HERE IN IDAHO THE F&G LOVE THERE DOE TAGS, THAT'S HOW THEY IMPROVE THERE BUCK TO DOE RATIO.

I SPOKE WITH NR'S HUNTING IN IDAHO WHO WHERE DISGUSTED WITH THE F&G FOR ALLOWING ANTLERLESS HUNTS IN UNITS WHERE THEY WHERE COMING OFF THE WORST WINTER IN 20 YEARS WITH VERY LITTLE TAG REDUCTION...WHERE THE POPULATION IS AT AN ALL TIME LOW. THE GUY SAYS I HUNTED HARD FOR 5 DAYS AND I NEVER SAW A MATURE BUCK AND VERY FEW DEER IN GENERAL. THEN I GO DOWN TO THE STORE AND THERE IN THE BACK OF A RESIDENT PICKUP IS 2 DOES THAT THE GUYS HARVESTED. HE ASKED THEM WHY THEY WOULD HARVEST WHEN THEY KNOW THE HERD IS DOWN. THERE REPLY WAS ( IF THE F&G GIVES ME A TAG I AM GOING TO FILL IT ) THEY REALLY DID NOT SEE THE PROBLEM.

THE THINKING NEEDS TO CHANGE,
 
There is a need to harvest does for herd health and to balnce buck doe ratios. When numbers of deer are way down is not that time. Unfortunately the decision to harvest more deer is often to address the complaints of ranchers than to s=address the needs of the deer herd.

I have seen two cases recently with antelope in two different units where permits were significantly increased despite an obviously declining herd.When i called game and fish the reason given was that was that ranchers in part of the unit were experiencing problems on irrigated cropland. This was done despite the fact tht the majority of these units consisted of sage lands with no agriculture nearby. Doe harvest was not focused on the problem areas and the majority of harvest occured in the public lands and probablly involved antelope that never or seldom used the ag areas
 
That really makes no sense when they can control where the does are taken so it would be only where there is a problem on private property. They do that in a lot of areas, including where I hunt.
 
I dont want to slide any farmers at all but farmers dont and shouldnt have an open say in how Fish and Game sets the harvest at. The insurance people dont have a say either but they get catered to quite often. If farmers are having a problem with animals doing crop damage they have an option to hunt them or let other people hunt them maybe let some of the local kids come and shoot some. If that isnt an option then fish and game should say your loss.
 
It's just one big example of how game management, or better yet, lack of said management, occurs when ranchers start calling their Reps.!
 
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH ANTLERLESS HUNTS WHEN THE HERD IS OVER POPULATED, HOWEVER HERE IN IDAHO IN MOST UNITS WE ARE RUNNING AT LESS THAN A HALF A TANK. ANTLERLESS HARVEST IS NOT HOW YOU GROW THE HERD.
 

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