"Did you ever wonder why"

[HNTBIGBULLS]

Did anyone ever wonder why in this
forum there is constantly bit$%ing
about Idaho's deer hunting!

Look at the other state forums, they
don't have a 1/3 of the complaining
that This forum does.

So people need to wake the hell up
and realize Idaho needs some major
changes now before they lose all
of there resource!

Every unit controlled, limiting tags,
Bonus point system, which you have to
do if you micro manage units.

Come on people, this is not just about us,
it is trying to preserve something for our
kids and grandkids and so on, the longer we wait
the worse it will get!

 

[Pooner]

I would love to make everything a trophy unit. But that wont happen. The general public just wants a chance to go out and hunt every year. Is our system broken no, is it flawed yes. I always thought everyone in this world wanted to shoot monsters, but after volunteering last year at a check station, I learned a lot. Most people just want go outside and hunt. If you look at the surveys it indicates the same thing. They were happy shooting two points. I think sometimes on these forums all we see are the hard core guys such as ourselves. Who eat,sleep, and drink hunting. We all would like to shoot monsters as well. But we are not the general public, although it would be nice if we could set the rules all ourselves. But with that being said, the past two years I have killed two mature bucks. You just have to look hard and put in more effort than the next guy to be successful. I think we need to stop complaining and just accept the problem and move on. If you dont like Idaho, go hunt Utah. Oh ya and it will only take you 15 years to draw a tag that you want.

 

[Frontier]

If good management exists, the numbers and quality should both be present. With the number of hunters now in Idaho the only way they are going to accomplish that, is to change the come one come all mentallity on OTC rifle tags.
There are some tough decisions that need to be made to bring back the herds, which interrupted is a loss of hunting opportunity and income for the IDFG. So it probably won't happen.

 

[destroyer350]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-10 AT 01:19PM (MST)[p]I'll have to agree with Frontier, I know more people that won't hunt deer because of no numbers than I do otherwise, most think its a joke that there is even a hunting season for deer, I know landowners that flat get pissed off if you shoot a deer on their place, and not because they hunt, but if you want to hunt elk, are more than happy to let you hunt if you'll respect their property! I think you're wrong to say it's only about monster bucks, because for most that I know that is not the case!

 

[springbear]

pooner, you pretty much nailed it IMO. and thanks for helping out by the way.

not sure that everything needs to be a trophy area, but there should absolutly be areas that are public land, and high trophy potential!

anybody care to explain (huntbigbulls) how a points system is going to improve our deer herds or increase the average age class of the bucks and bulls in a unit?

 

[HNTBIGBULLS]

Point system will not help the
herds, but if you micro manage
each unit like colorado and Nevada
does, you have to have a point system
to keep things fair.

There is no reason why a guy should
draw a controlled hunt tag 3 out of 5
years, just because he is lucky! People
that apply year after year should be
rewarded if they don't draw tags for
several years.

And yes I do not think every unit
should be managed as a trophy unit,
but the decent general units are
being over-hunted now, this in the
long run will and has devistated those units,
and hunters will have to move on
to the next best area and over harvest
it also, in that aspect, are we as hunters
alot like wolves? Which we detest.

 

[springbear]

dang Huntbigbulls, me and you ought to meet and have a beer sometime... Seriously; here is an internet cold one for ya.. Now then.

points systems are nothing more than a scam to get more of your money while making you feel like you have "bought" something of value. it won't do a dang thing to improve your odds if the entire state has max points, not to mention all the non-residents that will jump in to make sure they have max points as well. So we will all have to wait for that pool to clear out, mean while all the people who don't get in until next year have little or no chance.... (read kids that are 5 now) they are screwed.
ok, ok I know not all "points" systems are like that, they have provisions in them and create sub points systems or pools.
what about that point creep thing. playing games with the points like pooling them together.
then there is the all-mighty Nevada system. That's the one by golly; it's the fairest of them all. Unless I am messed up, in Nevada anybody can still draw any tag, some guys just have fewer or more "names" in the hat. Well what good is that? Your buddy who drew Idaho 3 times in 5 years is still going to have a rabbit foot up his rear and draw in NV as well. What's stopping him? Oh, but at least you had a better chance at that same tag (and paid handsomly for it) But at least you feel better about it right?

Why is it that guys sure get ticked off to no end when Johnny lucky draws a few tag(s) fair and square. Same odds as you me and the pope. No funny business, just good luck.
Yet we sit back and turn our head, or worse yet put them in magazines and make sudo-heros out of them when the SAME GUY(s) BUY a damn once in a lifetime elk/deer/sheep/ tag EVERY YEAR! Hell, Utah looks to be heading in a direction that encourages that to the extream. Thats Ok, we will prostitue out a "few" (hundreds) tags because it generates money... that all goes right back into making "our" big-game herds better.. for who? the guys that can sling some money around and buy the tags for the PUBLIC animals. And no, I do not have anything against rich guys, I have guided several to some nice bulls. It is just crazy (to me) to blidly put in place a system that allows or encourages that senerio.

Over hunting causing the devistation of big game herds! Man if your really think this, it ought to be very, very easy to prove. The numbers should jump out of the spread sheets like no other. I would not want to be a F&G bio in that meeting!

I am in no way suggesting that the mule deer herds are not down in your unit, but to place the blame on hunting; particularly buck or bull hunting is quite a statement; on a hunting site no less.
I would place a reasonable bet, without knowing anything about which ever unit specifically you are talking about, that the problem has a lot more to do with female harvest, fawn requritment (both beign born and surviving), winter range, and actual carrying capacity than it ever has to do with hunting. heck, I would put vechile mortality up there with hunting in some units. (I also acknolodge that having NO mature males around to breed the females can affect some of those)

any way, got to run, good chatting with you. by the way, the surveys are up on F&G web site. let them have it. I am heading to a meeting right now to tell them scurvey dogs, just how much I hate Points Systems!!!

 

[tagsoup]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-10 AT 06:06PM (MST)[p]Is killing does not overharvesting?


Also a point system is coming, maybe not this year or the next. But it is coming like it or not. It's a money thing. Maybe if you can figure out a way to sell all of the nonresident tags you can stop it. But that means Idaho has to do a better job managing there herds. And I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon.

 

[gemstatejake]

If and when Idaho decides to implement a points system....they need to come up with their own.

 

[customweld]

I'm not so convinced that the herds are in as bad as shape as every one claims. I come from a small town that has a porcupine race in July. For 2 or 3 weeks leading up to the 4th of July you spend all night out with spotlights looking for porcupines. Let me tell you the amount of mature bucks you see in the alfalfa fields is flat impressive.As soon as these bucks shed their velvet they go nocturnal.A mature buck spends 90% of its life in its bed.You just don't get a chance to see these animals out and about like you do does and young bucks. Something else that is effecting herds is the efficiency of the new hunting tools ie rifles that zero out to 300 yards,bows that shoot 350fps,scent hiding clothing and so on.Lets face it these deer are not competing against the tools of our grandfathers.

 

[timberline]

I agree with much of what has been stated previously. I think that our herds do need some help. Not sure if controlled units all the way around is the solution or not. It will help but at what cost? It will produce more mature animals on the hill and possibly a better hunting experience as fewer hunters will crowd the units, but we will lose our annual hunting herritage that some cherrish more that the hunt itself. Its a very tough decision that needs to be made. I don't align myself on either side completely.

Something that doesn't seem to get much publicity (or maybe I have not noticed it) is the access issue. I am not a fan of ATV's nor am I a fan of roads up every canyon. It seems that we have too much access into the core areas. Seems like there is a road up every canyon and a crest trail on nearly every ridge. I don't want to deny people their use of ATV's, just seasonally close some roads and trails to create more core areas durring the hunting seasons. This would also allow those die-hard hunters some less crowded areas to persue mature critters in a less crowded setting. And, over a short time, the mature animals woudl radiate out from the core areas and into proximity of those weekend warriors and the youth and elderly hunters that are unable to hike back into the core. I just hear the tales from the '80s and the bucks that were around then. don't think that ATVs were as prolific then as they are now. Why not try and recreate that scenario by seasonally closing some access and see what transpires over a couple years. May be a way to avoid controlled hunts.

Just a thought.

 

[Yoyak]

90 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.

 

[gemstatejake]

>90 percent of all statistics are
>made up on the spot.
>


This is the most accurate statement I've ever seen on MM........

 

[HNTBIGBULLS]

Ok lets do a poll!

Think outside of your own little honey
hole and consider surrounding units or
units that you hunted in the past, and
rate how you consider the overall deer
numbers!

1= EXCELLENT
2= GOOD
3= POOR
4= VERY POOR

My vote as you probably guessed is 3= poor!

 

[brymoore]

Speaking of stats, the IDF&G studied 120 wolf kills to see what they were killing as a percentage. It was 77% elk and 23% deer. Each wolf kills approximately 24 game animals a year. Let's assume that game animals means elk and two deer roughly equal an elk. The last official wolf numbers in Idaho was 846 at the end of 2008. Let's assume we have 1,000 wolves in Idaho today killing roughly 11 deer a piece each year (23% of 24 game animals times 2 to equal deer). That's roughly 11,000 wolf killed deer each year and 18,000 elk. This number doesn't take into account any sport kills by the wolves.

B*tch all you want about IDF&G but they're not the problem.

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/releases/view.cfm?NewsID=3156

 

[brymoore]

>Ok lets do a poll!
>
>Think outside of your own little
>honey
>hole and consider surrounding units or
>
>units that you hunted in the
>past, and
>rate how you consider the overall
>deer
>numbers!
>
>1= EXCELLENT
>2= GOOD
>3= POOR
>4= VERY POOR
>
>My vote as you probably guessed
>is 3= poor!


Do you live in Idaho?

 

[huntnrich]

To me the reason that there's so much conplaining about Idaho F&G is there's so much potential to have great hunting in that state. Look how much back country there is, look how much open public land, on and on, it's endless. But you can't set there in there office and not manage the wildlife. If your deer herds are hurting, do something about it, instead of waiting for time and all things will be better. I love Idaho, I'd love to see it come back to a fun place to hunt, instead of frustrating.

 

[HNTBIGBULLS]

Does it matter if I don't live in
Idaho, take the poll!

Wolves do have an impact on deer
herds, but they were on a downward
spiral long before the wolf problem,
there are not very many wolves, if any
in southeast Idaho, what is your answer
for that?

IDF&G is not the problem?

At some point we need to stop putting the
blame on predators, auto accidents, and
winter survival, and admit that one of the
biggest problems is hunting pressure!

Why when they do there deer counts
and see a population is way down, do
they not reduce tags?

 

[brymoore]

Another Utah resident complaining about Idaho?

 

[HNTBIGBULLS]

Yep you are right, look at the loss
of revenue IDF&G lost last year because
of us non-res fed up with your managment
plan!

No comment on the wolves in southeast ID
brymoore?

If all you can do is complain about
wolves and non-resident hunters than
you are missing the point, come on
Be honest and take the poll!

 

[gemstatejake]

gemstate has never and will never taken the pole............you do what you want, I'm out.

 

[brymoore]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-10 AT 02:18PM (MST)[p]I don't live or deer hunt in SE Idaho but I was in that area sharptail hunting on the opening weekend. I saw plenty of deer running around and saw some good bucks in the back of trucks.

The deer hunting wasn't bad this year. I had a lot of pictures of nice bucks sent to me. I even managed to kill a good 4 point.

If you don't like how ID manages it's game, go somewhere else and stop complaining. You can't hunt your own state but want to help manage ours...... (THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT ABOUT NONRESIDENTS - JUST WHINNERS)

 

[idahoan]

Yeah a few off stats, 23% of 24 animals is 5.5 animals perwolf per year. So 5520 deer per year, which is less than what is estimaated that are killed by vehicles every year. Whether or not that is true is beside the point, there are not the numbers on private land of deer that there should be, at least where I have looked, not neccesarily hunted. There are some big ones out there for sure but there isn't even enough small bucks to satisfy those that want them. Deer are hit and miss at best, what is causing that?

 

[IDdesertman]

I'm going to find my girlfriend right now and see if she will take the pole...

 

[brymoore]

>Yeah a few off stats, 23%
>of 24 animals is 5.5
>animals perwolf per year. So
>5520 deer per year, which
>is less than what is
>estimaated that are killed by
>vehicles every year. Whether or
>not that is true is
>beside the point, there are
>not the numbers on private
>land of deer that there
>should be, at least where
>I have looked, not neccesarily
>hunted. There are some big
>ones out there for sure
>but there isn't even enough
>small bucks to satisfy those
>that want them. Deer are
>hit and miss at best,
>what is causing that?


Go back and read my post. I assumed that the 24 game animals were elk and that 2 deer equaled on elk - so 11 animals per year.

Those numbers are only a rough, non-scientific guess. They're probably wrong.

Aren't mule deer in a decline nationwide?

 

[backcountryID]

+1 springbear and timberline

lets cut down vehicle aid during hunting seasons

lets make each species a trophy species as in you can only apply for 1 per year

lets stay away from a point system and inviting every hunter in the country to "invest" in their share of ID's animals

lets make general hunts 4 point minimum for deer and 5 point minimum for elk

 

[HKShooter]

bry, I get what you're saying. And I think you're close. But, I would argue the wolves are twice the "official count." More like 2,000. I was told a new wolf pack is discovered about every month. I like the helicopter approach only after the paying customers have had their go at 'em. Idaho is still better muley hunting than OR, but it is sad to see both states in the depressed muley situation they're in.

HK

 

[brymoore]

I agree the wolf number is higher than 1,000.

 

[HNTBIGBULLS]

This is not a discussion on wolves!

Take the poll!

I love the mentality of most ID residents,
"Go somewhere else" We are, why do you
think IDF&G lost so much revenue last year?

Some of us "whinners" are passionate about
Idaho's mule deer, because we have seen what
it has had and what the potential is!

 

[springbear]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-10 AT 04:08PM (MST)[p]The Poll was to rate how F&G is doing on over all deer numbers or deer Managment; correct?

State Wide, my answer would be 2= good.

That includes the muley pop up north which is holding its own or improving, especially in units that have any kind of agriculture.

The Whitetail population is doing very well, so well that you can get an extra doe tag in many units and hunt them from the end of August to the end of December....

I would say excellent if the gun seasons were not so long, and shifted to more short range. (more opportunity and less success)

 

[destroyer350]

I don't know about statewide because I don't hunt west or north, but in eastern Idaho I would have to give them a "4" very poor.

 

[THRILL]

+2 pooner
a point system wont help id residents

iddesertman,,, after hearing all the whining that cracked me up I gotta go see if the wife wants to take the poll

 

[gb22]

A point system is a "rich-mans" wish list. He can apply in every state lots of years and will end up hunting every year. Hunting will cease to exist, if the "trophy" hunts and point system continue to grow.

I've been to Europe. In Europe EVERY man can hunt.........if he's a multi-millionaire.

We don't want that.

I couldn't agree more with the need to perpetuate the resource. Limiting the number of hunters and opportunities will not do so. Reducing predators will.

It is that simple and it is that effective. (I've got 40+ years experience studying (bit of a geek sometimes) the math and the ecology....and 50 years in the mountains.)


Within the shadows, go quietly.

 

[two8E]

I did not take the poll. I do not feel bad. I do not feel intimidated.

I have heard guys with max points crying their eyes out because it does not guarantee them a tag.

I wonder why it is always the same type of person starting threads complaining about a state they do not live in themselves.

 

[IDdesertman]

You have to respect a guy who can go on a hunting site and be so honest about taking the pole...

 

[HNTBIGBULLS]

TWO8E, Read my last post, I know
what Potential Idaho has, and they
are wasting there resource, so
you can bash non-residents all you
want, but wake up and realize how
poor the deer herds are!

Doesn't seem like residents think
something needs to change, open your
eyes!!!!!

 

[brymoore]

Did you deer hunt in Idaho last year?

 

[gooseslayer]

I have had multiple F&G officers tell me that there will never be any management or restrictions in units 32, 32A, & 39 due to the fact that they are the main source of income....total bs is what im hearing, I asked why don't we make these units four point only units for two years then switch to two point only units and keep late draw tags aka give some deer time to grow?.....I got the response that the deer will mature at three points and get shot in the first two years??????? WOW is all i had to say, unit 39 has the most potential in the state of idaho, if it was managed like unit 45 it wouldn't even compare....people think about it and quit saying you want to spend time in the outdoors in the surveys....if thats all you want you should become a hardcore fisherman! just my two cents

 

[gooseslayer]

Everyone who is saying the F&G lost revenue last year is loony, count all the wolf tags they sold and multiply them by the cost of the tag.....count how many wolves were killed....do the math....they made bank, the best part was i got to watch the USFWS kill 8 wolves behind my buddies house and i didn't even have to buy a tag....priceless!

 

[Frontier]

The money made on wolf tags never came close to what the IDFG lost to unsold, out-of-state tags on elk and deer. You can point mostly at the wolf problem for the loss.

 

[grizzly]

I hunted Idaho last year only because I drew a tag. My hunting party bought one tag from IDFG, instead of the usual five.

Wolves are a major issue and I couldn't agree more with Frontier. Idaho should decrease the cost of all wolf tags to $5 and figure they will make up the revenue in increased deer/elk tag sales to Non-Residents.

Idaho lost hundreds of thousands of dollars (their numbers) last year due to poor herd management. We typically hunt deer in SE Idaho...an area without major wolf problems... yet the herds are still plummeting at alarming rates, even from a few years ago.

Grizzly

 

[Idahoron]

First off I would rate the F&G's response to wolves as a VERY poor. I don't believe that they ever thought that the wolves would be as big of a problem as they have turned out to be. Next I would rate their success at managing mule deer, and elk as poor. When the deer and elk started to tank the tags should have been cut NOW!!! Inevitably when biologists start to talk about herd populations and their reductions someone is quick to say the winter of 92-93 was bad and they never came back. Well other states with mule deer and elk had their populations come back. Hell that was over 17 years ago!!!!! It is no longer a good excuse. For a number of years the F&G explained low success to the old ? the animals are dispersed ? excuse. I have heard it so many times it is a joke. In fact for YEARS the Magic valley region has had the opening weekend success statistics in the local paper for hunters to see. These were NOT published in 2009, I wonder why?
I would also like to point out to everyone that says ATV?s and vehicle access is the reason, and they need to be more restricted. The wilderness areas were the first and hardest hit when it came to populations of deer and elk. The wolves didn't ride 4 wheelers into the back country and they didn't drive a truck. In fact the units that are doing the best for elk right now are units that have TONS of roads TONS of access, but no wolves and very restricted hunting. The same can be said for the deer units.
Unit 43 has feeding stations on the Boise river. For MANY years there were up to 1200 tags sold for that hunt. Look and see how many are there now. I was told that because there were so many elk showing up at the feed station that they were raising the tag numbers to try to reduce the number of elk being fed. What they found out was many of the elk that used to winter in on the Boise River were from unit 36. They said that they flat over hunted unit 43 because of an error. This is just one unit, I am sure that this is not the only time this has happened. I would call most of the F&G personnel in my region as my friends. I am a Reservist, and I could probably take some heat for my stand. It is not the F&G?s fault we have Wolves. BUT, and that is a big but. They CAN and should have alterd tag numbers and they should have done other things to help improve game numbers. Like someone already said. We are not just wanting better big game numbers just for us, but for or kids and our grandkids. We owe it to them to have huntable numbers of big game. Ron

 

[AzIdUtelknut]

As an Idaho native I hate to say this, but...

The general hunting population in ID is considerably less informed than in other states. The majority of responses to ID surveys reflect a primary concern for hunting opportunity and a much lower regard for trophy quality, or even overall hunt success. Most people who hunt in ID just want to be able to go hunting and care little about wildlife management.

The Fish and Game is hesitant (with good reason) to accept federal funds and the strings attached to them. The Fish and Game is concerned primarily about their continued funding and secondarily about wildlife population management. Unless IDFG finds an alternative way to fund their department they will continue to bow to the uneducated opinions of the general public.

Idaho will never be an elite hunting state unless the public demands it, but thus far the public has demanded only that their right to hunt not be limited. If you want to change the way that wildlife are managed in this state you must change the opinion of the hunting public.