deceptive no trespassing signs

SMELLYBUCK · Dec 1, 2009

I got off at the Dog Valley exit north of Cove Fort. Missouri Flat CWMU has some clear no trespassing signs on both the roads that lead to the north and to the east. I'm fairly certain the road that leads north has a public easement as it ties in with a clearly marked forest service road, additionally there is no gate.

I think the sign is deceptive as it says "no trespassing." I've seen situations like that before where the land owner is more specific and says no trespassing off of the road.

I am going to research it a bit and make my own educated decision regarding my rights, just wanted to know if anyone here is familiar with the situation and could save me some digging time.

thanks

orion23 · Dec 1, 2009

i see it all the time. it is very decieving.

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Packs Dealer

D13er · Dec 1, 2009

JB

HillbillyNnevada · Dec 1, 2009

I have to love that sign. I doubt the poster of the sign truly believes lethal force can be used to protect property but you would be surprised at the amount of morons that believe they have a god given right to shoot a man for trespassing.

PleaseDear · Dec 1, 2009

My favorite are the ones that say Private Property Beyond this point.......

So a guy like me thinks it is private property behind the sign and I do not go any farther.....NOPE! mix of private and public BLM was this instance as I found out going over my BLM map with the CO.

Robb

blazingsaddle · Dec 2, 2009

Those roads you are talking about are confusing. I have been on them many times and never feel quite sure of whats what? I do not like the feeling- but sometimes I use the no gate rule. Right or wrong- As long as I don't go through a gate/fence thats posted I'll drive through. But I am always very cautious of what I do when I'm not 100% sure I'm on public land.
I wish It were easier to tell public from private- any one know of how to get maps that show updated ownership of property?

SMELLYBUCK · Dec 2, 2009

blaze,

That is exactly what I'm getting at. I have the BLM ownership maps which are pretty good about showing public vs. private. The county recorder is the ultimate authority on ownership as any property owner will want their property deeds recorded to announce their ownership.

Road easements are a little more tricky as easements do not always show on a county plat map. That's where my research will begin unless someone on this site can give me a head start. I'm hoping for a contact name at the county level or with the forest service regarding county roads and public access.

If I find Missouri Flat CWMU is posting a road with a public easement, I might have to put out a few signs of my own.

rodsroost · Dec 2, 2009

Whatever you do Buck,dont park your vehicle west of the fence on that guys property.A couple years ago,my buddy parked his truck off the side of the road about 30ft.from the fence as to not go through a hugh mud hole .He was not in the road.He walked from his truck to the public side and hunted.When he got back,their was a County Sheriff and the land owner waiting for him.My buddy got written up for parking on the landowners property,hence private property.He had to go to court and pay a fine.Just be careful and dont stop on the guys property.Go past his property line fence and you should be able to see the Forest Service signs posted to stay on designated roads and or road closed signs.Good luck(ROD)

soupcreek · Dec 2, 2009

There are many public roads that go through private property. Most of the roads you would hunt on are easements. The land owner still owns the land, but you have a right to travel on the designated path (a right of way). The land owner has every right to post signs along that road letting you know that you are traveling on his land and that it is considered trespassing if you get off the legal right-of-way. Although you have the right to travel through, you have no legal right to harvest an animal on the private ground. The Forest Service does you a favor by posting where their land begins.
I do Land Surveying in Montana and know how to clearly find private property boundaries, get aerial photos depicting such, research things at the county courthouse and tell whether certain roads are public or private. My suggestion to you would be to find a small survey company in the area and stop in and ask for a little help. Most Surveyors are good people who are willing to help out and point you in the right direction. Don't take advantage of them, but they are a very good resource for this type of thing.
Soup

REDDOG · Dec 2, 2009

My favorite is one just out of Eagle, Co. It says "an open gate is not an invitation to trespass" Its a public road going thru a bunch of trophy homes.

mywifeishotterthentiffany · Dec 2, 2009

D13er I have actually seen that sign. It was right next to a cabin we rented last Thanksgiving. It just out side of a little town called Nye in South Central Montana.

"Let's keep things in perspective.I mean for Peet's sake there are kids in Africa that don't even hunt....hello" Jimmy Big Time

HoundDawgJr · Dec 2, 2009

I'm totally opposed to these deceptive type of signs. Reason is I pretty much exclusively sneak on to private property to hunt, and the last thing I need when I'm hunting some guy's property is some other guys stumbling around in there.

Actually, I should clarify, I don't always sneak. Sometimes the best method is to just drive right through the front gate and act like you own the place and belong there, you seldom get questioned or stopped. My buddy taught me that with the Johnson Ranch.

So please stay off the private ground because those are my hunting spots!! Killing a nice animal is fun, but doing it on private property and not getting caught adds even more excitement.

Not suggesting this for everyone, my way is not for the faint of heart. Every now and then it can go south on you.

But when in doubt, just hunt it and don't get caught!!

grizzly · Dec 2, 2009

HoundDawgJr, you forgot the most important part of your plan...

Only hunt at night, and use .22's so the noise isn't too much.

That there is a true "hunter". Git'r Done.

Grizzly

HoundDawgJr · Dec 2, 2009

Grizz,

I used to hunt at night, the only way to go. But many years ago I discovered that deer and elk hunting is way better in January than it is in October. Less crowded and better hunting, and easier to trespass.

So no need to hunt at night then, ya know unless things got wild at the Wee Blew Inn and you end up sleeping one off all day. Then night hunting still works. But ya, excellent advice as well.

eelgrass · Dec 2, 2009

A land owner can't shoot you for trespassing? That sounds good, but I wouldn't test it now days in marijuana growing country like the Emerald Triangle here in northern Kali.

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.

hornkiller · Dec 3, 2009

hounddog how do you know about the fog are you from around there?

sab · Dec 3, 2009

> I doubt the poster
>of the sign truly believes
>lethal force can be used
>to protect property but you
>would be surprised at the
>amount of morons that believe
>they have a god given
>right to shoot a man
>for trespassing.

You haven't been to Texas, have you? Texas Penal Code (Chapter 9.42) allows the use of deadly force in protection of one's property. There are requirements that must be met, but there is a legal defense for it in the Lonestar state.

Castnshoot · Dec 3, 2009

LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-09 AT 07:20PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-09 AT 07:17?PM (MST)

If you shoot someone on your posted property who is in possession of a firearm you are not likely to be in much trouble. Think twice about jumping that fence with a gun in your hand.

It can indeed go south on you very fast.

mmwb · Dec 3, 2009

"If you shoot someone on your posted property who is in possession of a firearm you are not likely to be in much trouble."

If you can't present compelling evidence that the person you shot was presenting an imminent danger to you and that you were in immediate danger of serious bodily harm or death, then you'll probably spend 20 to life in prison and your family will be left destitute after everything is sold off to pay legal fees. Even if you were in the right and charges (which will be filed against you) are dropped, you will still probably have spent all your assets on legal fees.

Leave law enforcement to law enforcement.

sab · Dec 4, 2009

>Leave law enforcement to law enforcement.

Someone shows up on my property with a gun, where it takes a Sheriff's Deputy an hour or more to respond, and I'm supposed to call the Sheriff's office and wait for "law enforcement"? That's utterly ridiculous...

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to start blasting away, but I'm damn sure not going to "leave law enforcement to law enforcement". But I suppose if I did, it would make the Deputy's job pretty easy - just call in the coroner to pick up our dead bodies and go home. Heck, it would be easy to pick our bodies up, as rigor mortis will have set in by the time the Deputy arrives

No, I'm going to do whatever it takes to defend my family, myself, and my property (in that order) from those who wish to do ill will, thank you very much.

mmwb · Dec 4, 2009

Sure. There is a difference between a trespasser and a trespasser presenting an immediate danger. Confrontation, at any level, of an armed individual is risky business. Most of us would approach a trespasser, even if armed. Just has to be some common sense.

There is a difference between ethics and the law. We want to observe and live by ethics. If we don't want to be locked up, we generally have to live by the law. I expect the drive of ethics is behind most of the chest thumping on topics like these...

sab · Dec 4, 2009

mmwb:

I think we share the same philosophy. I just took issue with your blanket advice to "leave law enforcement to law enforcement." That's just poor advice. You are correct that ethics and laws must be used when determining a course of action. However, to advise someone to just wait for the law to arrive when an armed trespasser shows up on one's property is bad advice. In my mind (yes, ethics are different for everyone), it is my ethical duty to protect my family from harm, and if I just sit back and wait, I've put my loved ones in harm's way unnecessarily.

Confronting an armed trespasser is, indeed, a risky activity. However, it is usually not difficult to determine the trespasser's intent. For instance, if the firearm is a 9mm handgun, and it's pointed at you, there's almost no legal or ethical excuse, and that's an immediate threat. Or, if it's 2am and your dogs discover a trespasser with a gun in hand, you can bet he's up to no good, and that's an immediate threat (at least in Texas, anyway). However, if it's dove season, and the trespasser is shouldering a broke-open over-under, it's probably a misguided hunter who needs a stern lecture, along with directions. Clearly that's not an immediate threat.

You're right, every situation needs to be evaluated before acting, but that act should usually not stop with the 911 call...