CROSSBOWS (Yes or No)

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I have always had an ignorant idea about crossbows. I based all my thinking on what was said chat around the water cooler. I have never shot one nor have I ever been around anyone that had shot one moreless hunted with one. I just believed the fact that crossbows were a dead on killer at 100 or more yards again until this year. I am starting this post just to see what you think and to share with you my new experience around crossbows. Now I know there will be some purest on MM about archery hunting but if you know me you know how much I like about "my way is the only way attitude" If it is legal then I believe hunt the way you want. Your ethics are your ethics and you choose your hunting partners according to your ethics. But this is what I learned about crossbows. This year at the hunting outfit I am buying in Wyoming, we had the owners of Excalibur huting with us and I got taling to them about crossbows. Here is what I found out. They still have about 40 years as their outside limit to shoot an animal. A crossbow is very powerful. Their midrange crossbow is shooting 175 lb at 305 FPS. That is incredible however you have to still respect the limitations of the crossbow. The short arrows used in a crossbow can be thrown off by the slightest wind. Much more then a 28+ inch arrow so you want to be close for accuracy. This is were I think the crossbow is a great weapon. I had never shot a crossbow before however the first time I shot one of their Excaliburs at 30 yards I consistantly drilled the bullseye. It got me thinking that maybe instead of the crossbow being an unfair weapon maybe it is better because your kill shot is going to be so much more cleaner. Like any weapon, if you stay in the boundaries of it's accuracy then maybe the crossbow shows more respect to the animal. Wyoming is one state that is legal to hunt with a crossbow in archery season and I seen the Excaulibur group take 3 mule deer and 2 antelope using crossbows and each kill was within 40 yards and all good clean kill shots. This is worth talking about and seeing what all of your think.

Keep a tight line, Jon
 
I have no problem with folks hunting with a crossbow......as long as it's NOT in the archery only season. It's not a bow & arrow in my opinion.

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
Hey Bohntr, I felt the same way until I was around it this year. Now I have changed my mind. You still have to get in the same distance as a "regular Bow" yet you get a much more consistant accurate kill shot. It also gives people an opportunity to bow hunt that they may not have gotten if they had to shoot a "regular Bow". Every typw of hunting has evolved so where do you draw the line? Each hunter has to determine their own ethics on that. I have bow hunted for a long time and my thinking has changed due to some of the shots I have seen. I shot a mule deer last year with my muzzle loader and in early velvet this deer was shot in the antler be a achery hunter. The broadhead was still in the antler. I am not trying to change anyones mind but I am coming to believe that as I get older I want to see animals killed as quick as they can be killed. Instead of seeing on TV these beyond belief shots to see how far away I can shoot them. We are opening a door that if he can do then I can. and we have a lot of lead in animals. Just my thinking thanks for your imput my friend, Jon
 
Here in WI, crossbows are legal, only if you have a permit from the state for a disability type situation. I have no problem with that. As far as your average joe(like myself), I have an issue with them. To me, you are taking one of the great things about bowhunting out of the equation. I, along with more than a few other people, have been busted drawing on a deer. That's part of the game. I've also been stuck at full draw when Mr. Big suddenly decided he'd like to hang out just a little longer, 3 feet before my perfect shot. Do you let down or is he going to step out in 2 seconds and catch me trying to draw again? That is a non-issue when your bolt is loaded, drawn and ready to go. As far as accuracy and shooting distance, I tend to agree with you. But, as ethical hunters, there is absolutly no excuse for taking marginal shots, or not being proficient with your bow. I have never personally been out with anyone using a crossbow, so perhaps that may change my thinking somewhat. Until then, I have a tree calling my name in 2 hours, and the bucks are starting to chase the does like sailors getting off a submarine.
 
Jon:

I've shot crossbows over the years for recreation. Sold a few at my partner's shop as well. They are not even close to a bow, IMO. Biggest difference, a true bow has to be drawn AND held by the archer at full draw. A crossbow does not. Additionally, the crossbow has a shoulder stock and forearm stock resembling a shouldered firearm which allows the shooter to use a supported rest, etc........just like a shouldered firearm.

I understand your reasoning about effective killing range and it being a close range weapon, and I totally agree...it is a close range weapon. However, so is a shotgun loaded with buckshot and/or a flintlock. Would you allow those weapons in the Archery Only season as well? Of course you wouldn't.

I think there is a place for crossbows in the hunting community. Perhaps a primitive weapon season or a HAM (handgun, archery, muzzleloader) type season would be more applicable. But it doesn't belong in the "archery only" season, IMO. It's simply not a bow & arrow.

On a side note, I haven't seen you post in quite some time.....good to see you're still around. :)

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
Absolutly not unless a medical condition causes you to be unable to draw your bow. The arguement that they are efficient, and close range weapons are true. The problem is one must not draw the weapon to shoot it. I am all for the crossgun to be able to be used during general season, but NOT during the BOW hunt. Good luck and have a great day!

Chad
 
Yep, they are fun to shoot but save the hunting with them for the disabled or elderly by special permit.
Eric
deerline.gif
 
I'm with the consensus. It's not a bow and should not be permitted in bow only seasons unless used by a diabled person.
 
I am also against crossbows in Archery season. Part of the romance of shooting a bow and/or bowhunting is the practice that it takes to become effective at it. Yes, it has become easier with the advent of the compound with sights and release, however, to be truly a good shot under field conditions it takes diligent practice. You yourself have stated that you picked up the crossbow and immediately were drilling the bullseye. That can't be said for Archery, to many variables to effect your shooting. If the sole reason for picking up any weapon is how easy it is to use on game, then we should all use scoped rifles.
 
for everyone of you guys that diligently practices and trys not to take marginal shots (myself included )God bless you but for each 1 of you there are about 10 archers that couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and only bowhunt because of the longer season.I've been involved in teaching thousands of aspiring bowhunters and in my opinion 70 + percent fall into that catagory. I hunted with a crossbow when I lived in Arkansas and it was ok but I did as well or better with my compound,I could maybe get off a second shot with my bow but never with the crossbow because I had to put it on the ground and use my foot to rearm it and you just can't do that without a lot of movement.If it's legal then leav'em alone and if you don't like it then work to change the law. Thats why we can't get anything done as hunters we're too busy argueing amongst ourselve's . stickbow guys can't stand compounds and fly fishermen hate spinning reels etc. why don't we all become real purists and only allow game to be taken with a hand carved spear......oh wait that won't work because the guys who use rock's would still be pissed off. I guess we can't win !!
 
what the heck are you talking about USA? oregon fishing asked a question. put his opinion up for slicing and dicing. he made the post exactly for the purpose of discussion. I thought those guys were pretty damn restrained in their opinions on cross bows. Those are also likely the opinions of 90% or more of all bowhunters.
 
They are not legal here in NM and don't care to see them unless they would do a seperate season. I don't think its archery hunting even if you have to get as close, wi th a bow you still have to draw your bow , whereas a cross bow its already locked and ready to launch...Not knocking em , just don't care to see them here in NM...Larry
 
What am I talking about ??? it's called being part of the discussion, you may not like my opinion but you know what , it's MY opinion and last time I checked thats what these forums were about .I don't care how restrained anyone was its still my opinion !
 
I feel that crossbows have a place but for only those that are handicapped. The real issue here is that the states only allow so many tags and if there is another season then that will lower the available tags again. The manufacturers will try to push to get this changed so that they will have the opportunity to sell another product. In my state I think it's hard enough to get drawn now and will stand to oppose a new season for them. In AZ you can hunt with any weapon more primative during most of the seasons so we really don't need another season when they can hunt during the firearms and muzzleloader hunts now if they choose. If they are handicapped I'm fine with them hunting during the archery seasons. That would impose no restriction on the handicapped yet allow those able to hunt the means to utilize the weapon in other timeframes.
 
I like the way that our seasons are set up here. We have a month long archery only season. That does not include cross bows. We then have another month that is muzzleloader and archery combined. This is when the crossbows are allowed to be used. I see nothing wrong with someone using one but not in an archery only season. They are basically a short range gun. No drawing and holding at full draw like a bow. They are however a primitive weapon and I see no reason why they can't include them in the muzzleloader season like we do here. It seems to keep everybody happy here.

Saskman
 
I agree with Bohnter and others, I do not consider a cross bow as archery hunting.I suppose if you have some type of handicap exception I would not object otherwise I think it not something the average Joe should be able to use in the archery only season. As for USA's comments, I think the response that has been made to you is that the opening post sought input and opinion from those so inclined. Your response was to say that we should not even discuss it and instead take action to change the regulations if we thought it necessary. Your response seemed to suggest we should not even discuss the issue, when that was the whole point of the original post. Anyway, yes you are entitled to your opinion, I just think others saw it as missing the the intent of the original post. Nothing to get too excited about.
 
I challenge ANYONE to find on NEGATIVE stat from states that have legalized crossbows in general archery season.

Just one negative - like a decreased season because of it, decreased bag limits, etc etc.

Anybody ?

Because the answer is no, nobody can produce that, and because there are no negatives to allowing them, and because compounds are every bit as accurate, and arguably even a BETTER weapon to hunt with, why NOT allow them ?

I hunted a year with a crossbow, 12 years with a compound, 4 years now with a trad bow. Crossbows and compounds are not that much differnt in range, ease of use, etc etc. Trad bows are vastly different.

WHEN it becomes a problem (and I live in Arkansas, we've had crossbows for 30 years now I guess ) then actions need taken.

Until then, I don't see any problem at all with allowing crossbows in archery season, they won't and don't affect my hunting at all.
 
BradLantz:

I think you missed the point. The question was raised as to whether crossbows should be allowed in the BOW only season. Most have anwered no, as they do NOT consider them a bow & arrow. It's really that simple. No stats needed.

Additionally, I can tell you from experience that once you allow a change of this magnitude, it is EXTREMELY difficult to have it removed. I say allow crossbows......in the general and/or primitive season. JMO

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
>Absolutly not unless a medical condition
>causes you to be unable
>to draw your bow.
>The arguement that they are
>efficient, and close range weapons
>are true. The problem
>is one must not draw
>the weapon to shoot it.
> I am all for
>the crossgun to be able
>to be used during general
>season, but NOT during the
>BOW hunt. Good luck
>and have a great day!
>
>
>Chad


Technically thats not true, in Wyoming for instance, you cannot use a crossbow that you can't draw using your own power. cranks and things like that to assist you are illegal. but I agree that when the time comes to shoot, your already drawn and it makes it alot easier. just a thought
 
Hey I think its absolutely fine to use a crossbow, I've never hunted with one but i've shot one and they are pretty awesome and powerful. But i think i'll stick with my compound, it is alittle more challanging and that extra degree of perfection needed makes the pride of a successful hunt so much sweeter.


"Tenderloins - a carnivore's candy"
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-06 AT 09:48AM (MST)[p]One of the things some of you are missing here is that tag allocations in some states are based on weapons success. You can use a rest to shoot a crossbow and that in itself makes it a more accurate weapon. If the archery success goes up the tag allocations go down it's not unlimited. By allowing crossbows you could in effect be reducing hunting opportunity. Those of you from states with multiple deer tags don't understand how that impacts opportunity in other states. I think crossbows have a place but not at the elimination of archery tags for their usage.
 
Hunting whitetails in Arkansas is different than hunting mulies out west. Out here we have a limited resource that archers get to chase but have a low success rate of 'catching'. That gives us longer seasons and I am NOT willing to give up dates so somebody can hunt the archery seasons with a crossgun. Put them in with rifle/muzzy and I am fine with that.
Utah Bowman Association while fight any 'movement' to legalize crossguns during archery season except for those already exempt for physical impairments.
 
Hey Thanks everyone for your imput. I have been reading through all of them and there are a couple of thoughts that I keep hearing. One is that you should have to have medical handicap to hunt with a crossbow and the other is that it is not a fair hunt unless you have to hold back your string for an animal to get into your range or shooting lane. Do you agree that these are the main arguements? What does that have to do with a constant humane kill of the animal? I know that most of you are avid archery hunters and practice all year however you stil are not close to the accuarcy of a crossbow yet we are still talking about stalking to the same 30-40 yard distance for a shot. To me I think that is the hunt. After I have made a good stalk it is the kill after that and I want it to be clean. I still have to get within 35 yards or so. If it is the pulling back of the bow and holding it then why have we been able to come up with the most incredible compounds now days that you can hold back forever? Why is that okay and not have to stay with a long bow? ALso, what is handicapped? Is that determined by a doctor or what level is okay? Please believe me I am not trying to create an arguement just a debate. I still am not sure where I stand but the arguement that you should have to hold back a bow or be handicapped is not convincing me. I love archery hunting but what I like about it is having to get close to the animal for a good clean shot and I want my shots as clean and the fastest kill I can. Thanks everyone. Now I remember what I love about MM. Talk to you later, Jon
 
"One is that you should have to have medical handicap to hunt with a crossbow and the other is that it is not a fair hunt unless you have to hold back your string for an animal to get into your range or shooting lane. Do you agree that these are the main arguements?"

1. Actually no I don't.....I believe what most are saying, including myself, is that a crossbow is NOT a bow & arrow, therefore, should not be allowed in the bow only season. Having a "fair" hunt is not the issue here.


"To me I think that is the hunt. After I have made a good stalk it is the kill after that and I want it to be clean."

2. If that's your objective, which is good, why not do it with a firearm, shotgun or muzzeloader? Stalk in close and make a "clean" shot.

"If it is the pulling back of the bow and holding it then why have we been able to come up with the most incredible compounds now days that you can hold back forever?"

3. Hold back forever???? I've yet to see a compound bowhunter leave his/her truck in the morning, draw their bow to full draw, and still-hunt all day at full draw. :)

"ALso, what is handicapped? Is that determined by a doctor or what level is okay?"

4. In my state, CA, a doctor's written report is required to apply for that specialized permit.

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
There are specific restrictions to disabled hunters using them in Utah, one is the disability must be permanent, another is being approved from a physican and the DWR.

Drawing undetected is a major part of bowhunting. Holding back waiting for the animal to present a shot is another. Crossbows do NOT belong in archery seasons unless exempt for medical reasons. If hunting with a crossbow is fun, do it during the general any weapon hunt.
 
as a hunter i want to think that i will be able to do this for a long time now. there might be a time when it gets hard for me to draw back a 60 or 70 pound bow. that would be a great time for a crossbow. you still gotta get close.

elkantler75
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-06 AT 04:20PM (MST)[p]I have shot a homemade crossbow for recreational purposes since I made it in shop class when I was 15. It is a heck of a lot of fun - but I agree with BOHUNTR - it shouldn't be classified in the same class as a regular bow for records purposes. The advantages it gives a hunter over a compound or recurve bow are too great and as such it should be considered a different type of "archery weapon" and its use should be considered carefully in each state. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that it shouldn't be allowed during "archery" season if it is deemed to be legal in that state. No doubt it makes a difference that you don't have to hold the draw back and you can put it up to your shoulder with a pistol grip or thumbhole stock to steady your aim thus allowing you to take a trophy animal more easily. However you could make the same argument to some extent between a recurve and a compound. There are other tools that compound bows use as well (triggers etc) that recurves and longbows cannot. We have all heard those arguments time and time again, and the purists and the technos may never ever come to an agreement. To me however, it is what you are most comfortable with. If you shoot better with a compound than with a recurve then you should use it and vice-versa. I have never bowhunted per se but I have shot enough recurves and compounds to know which I prefer and how much work it takes to become competent with either to be able to successfully kill an animal. I have thought about getting back into bowhuting and if I do, I really want to explore using a recurve as I really enjoy shooting them. The question is do I have the time to prepare myself and hone my abilities to do it correctly. If so, then I will shoot a recurve, but if I only have half the time, I will shoot a compound and if I have less time than that, then maybe a crossbow is a good option for me. If you know how to use the weapon correctly and are confident in your abilities then I say it should matter if it is legal in your area. Nor do I think a disabliity should determine whether or not you can use a crossbow or not - I have a cousin who is parapalegic and he can shoot his compound bow from his wheelchair as accurately as anyone I've ever seen, but he chooses to hunt with his rifle as he does have limited mobility / stalking ability. If he were to ever use an archery weapon again - I have no doubt he would choose his compound bow.

I think the crossbow should still be classified as a "primitive weapon" (I also think smooth bore muzzleloaders qualify under this definition as well - pretty much any weapon that has an effective range of less than 75 yards and/or was used as the primary or traditional weapon prior to the industrial revolution) and most definitely should be considered for use during the archery season. First - the nature of the projectile is the same as a bow. The bolt is shorter than the arrow and again you don't have to hold the draw back by yourself and you can probably maintain a more consistent accuracy level but it is fired from a simple tension system that does not use explosives/gunpowder to propel the projectile. The hunter still has to get close and may only have time for one perfect shot, but if he is accurate, it will kill just the same. So I vote yes, but with a seperate records category, just like there are for rifles and "muzzleloaders" (don't get me started on inlines vs. traditionals - at least not in this forum!).


UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
Also BOHNTR - with most crossbows you shouldn't hold the tension for extended periods of time - "all day" will cause you to lose tension, just like with a recurve - it should not be stringed for extended periods of time either - depending on the quality of the weapon and the string, but with a crossbow you CAN easily hold the draw for at least an hour or more! I know that makes a big difference - try holding back your compound for more than two minutes! Talk about the shakes!

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
For certain hunting out west is differnt - however the truth remains that where crossbows have been allowed into archery season, there has been no negative impacts that can be referenced.

If crossbows results in fewer tags, days of season or hurt the resources, don't you think it'd have happened SOMEWHERE ?

I tell you what's hurt more than crossbows - compounds. I know its not a popular topic, and I am 100% fully behind having all bows in archery season, but compounds have resulted in far greater kills, far greater numbers of hunters etc etc than crossbows EVER will.

So its not really about the impacts of a weapon, is it ? The truth behind keeping crossbows out is simple to me - its greed and selfishness. Its people wanting to shoot their "easy" compounds, much easier than reecurves anyway, but dammit lets not allow anyone to be easier than our easy !

Again, its selfish to not want more people in the woods, isn't it ? Yet 95% of bowhunters in colorado are what ? Compouns hunters - do you hear all the trad hunters complaining ? No, because its all about choice, and if there is no negative impacts, you cannot legitimately complain.


Just info coming from a guy who was born and raised in a state that has crossbows, who's traveled nationwide, hunted in many states, lived in many states, I lived in Colorado for 3 years .... and there is a huge myth behind crossbows.

Two more things -

One - a crossbow is every bit a bow, it uses the power generated from the limbs and deliverd through the string to propel an arrow. The very latest compounds have a hard time claiming that with the parallel limb technology !

Two - Crossbows are already allowed in most states, in general archery season. What, you don't believe me ? A Dr can right an excuse for you and you're VOILA! crossbow legal. Its that simple to skirt the laws and everybody will be your best friend because you're handicap.
 
jon

I have no problem with a crossbows. my buddy bought one this year and enjoied it. he had bought a horton with a 150 pound pull. here is the problem i noticed with one that would keep me from hunting elk or lager game with one. with just a 20 inch arrow that dosent add up to be enough wieghtto produce good kenetic energy for a good penitration on the shot. the heaviest arrows for a crossbow mright weigh 300 grains if your lucky. i watched my freind shoot a mule deer and hit him in the shoulder with his and the arrow barly made it through. but i shot a deer with my compound with an arrow that weighs about 370 grains and shoots out of my 99 martin panther at about 260 fps and had it blow right through both shouldes of a deer. in my opinion they need heaver arrows. they mright lose speed but it will help there kenitic energy.


moseley middleton
 
Brad, it isnt that easy to get a Dr. to 'right' you a note and you get a permit to use a crossGUN. There sre strict critrea that must be met and verified by the DWR here in Utah.

moseley, good point on KE on large game out west, not bambis in the south.

Call me selfish if it makes you think that is an argument to convince me and the MAJORITY of hunters out west to allow crossGUNs during archery season. If thats the best you can do, forget about get people to 'fall' for your position. If compounds are BETTER than crossguns, why use crossguns? Is it because little if any practice is needed to succeed? Then you are lazy, which is selfish on YOUR part.
 
Brad, I think you have lost your perspective on the difference in the weapons. If a guy is sitting in a tree stand with his crossbow cocked on a stand where there is a rest there is a HUGE advantage. You don't have to draw your weapon, hold it with the weight and aim and release the arrow using a release that can effect your accuracy. Your point about how parallel limb bows not utilizing the limbs to propel the arrow couldn't be more wrong. There are crossbows with wheels and cams and 170lb draw weights so that argument has no rationale. The fact that you think most medical professionals would write the excuse knowing full well the patient isn't disabled doesn't reflect the ethics of most medical professionals.

I can sense this is a sensitive subject for you and I'm sorry but I don't share your beliefs or thoughts on the issue. It appears the majority of the posters don't as well but I realize that matters little to you. The fact that most of these guys only had an issue with crossbows being used during the general archery season leads me to conclude that they weren't totally against the weapon and weren't quite as greedy as you suggest. The fact that they disageed with you for their own reasons is their right.
 
Proutdoors

LOL ? you correct my spelling yet try to use the word ?cross-gun? ?

A crossbow has been a bow thousands of years longer than a compound has, and the way a bow WORKS fits exactly the definition of a crossbow. I know those facts elude you, but true they are.

Selfishness is when you choose a weapon that's easier to master, easier to shoot and makes your chances of filling a tag greater, and not wanting to give other hunters the same choices in what they want.

Remember, there has NEVER been a negative to allowing crossbows in archery season.

Ever.

Boskee

Okay, if what you want to do is compare weapons, lets do that.

Crossbows = easy to master, easy to shoot, 100% letoff, triggered releases, sights, fast arrows, and the ability to NOT have to draw on animals within the hunters immediate presence. Crossbows are popular in states that allow them, they bring more hunters into archery season.

Compounds = easy to master, easy to shoot, very high letoffs, triggered releases, sights, fast arrows, and the ability to NOT have to draw on animals within the hunters immediate presence. Compounds make up 90% or more of the bowhunters in states that don't allow crossbows, and still the majority in states that DO allow crossbows.

Recurve/longbow = hard to use, hard to master, 100% full weight or draw in your hands, you cannot hold and release while the animals comes into your hunting presence, no triggers, rarely do people use sights. Recurve/longbows make up a very small minority of bowhunters ? why ? Its HARD TO DO.

So there you go, want to compare ? We see two kinds of bows that are very similar in that they're high or all letoff, very fast, accurate, easy to master and they bring in lots of hunters to archery season. Compounds do EXACTLY what ya?ll fear crossbows will ? can you admit that ?

If you can, then you're on your way to realizing that until archery season is negatively affected by technology, that as long as compounds are allowed, there is NOT LOGICAL reason to not allow crossbows.

Compounders want their easy, but don't want crossbow bowhunters to have theirs, and that's the simple truth of it.

Its not a sensitive issue for me ? Arkansas is my home state and has allowed them for decades with no negative impacts, only positive ones. I'm a member of an Arkansas hunting board and no one EVERY brings crossbows up ? it's a no subject because everyone knows that they're bows, legal archery and don't negatively impact anyone?s hunting.

I'd hazard most replies to this are people that have no experience with crossbows and have never lived in a state that allows them. I rarely see crossbows in the woods, its compounders I see all the time ! Why would that be ?

Its simply another choice of weapon, nothing more and nothing less. Until a person can produce sound, factual information that would lead one to believe that their inclusion into regular archery seasons would be negative, and please use the other 6-8 states that allow them as a template, you can get no better info than that ??. Then its really an open and closed debate.

The only facts to back not allowing crossbows is simply that you don't want to have more archers into ?your? season.

Isn?t it ? And I understand that ....... but I refuse to personally let selfishness rule what is right and wrong and how I see things.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-06 AT 04:27PM (MST)[p]Brad archery tags out here are over the counter so if a guy wants to get off his bump and learn to shoot a bow like everyone else it's fine with me. The law out here very clearly doesn't allow them and it's been in place for quite a while. The only reason you want them in is so you don't have to take the time to practice to become proficient. I have no issue with a handicapped hunter using one during the regular archery season. But they are just like shooting a primative form of a gun. You want them because you want to take the easy way out (admit it). If you're willing to make the committment you would stand erect and draw your bow hold the weight and aim and take your chances like everyone else, Not let a mechanism hold the weight of your string which you don't have the strength to set without assistance and maintain it until you pull the trigger, which allows you a major advantage. In fact you could even shoot from a rest like a rifle creating even more of an advantage. But yet you insist that we modify our laws to accept a weapon that's easier to use. Sorry Brad you're flawed logic won't work on me you're going to have to use that mechanical device during the muzzleloader or firearms season with like weapons that can utilize a rest and be cocked for hours on end and be shot just like a GUN unless you're handicapped and can get your doctor to sign. Stop whining and start practicing and you may enjoy the benefits of the fruits of your efforts just like the rest of us. Your sales pitch just won't work on people that understand just what a CROSSGUN really is. That jaded view you have may get a littler clearer, if you take some of the smoke and mirrors out of your argument. You see it's you that really is being selfish here because you refuse to conform to the laws and want them changed to make things easier for you. Not me. Especially when you more than likely can pick up a bow just like anyone else. I shoot archery with a guy who's very accomplished that only has one arm and he holds his tab in his mouth to shoot and he hunts with a regular bow just like me. So yes I don't buy your argument, even remotely!
 
Brad, I use the term 'crossgun' for a reason, it is NOT a bow in the sense one does not have to draw the weight back and HOLD that or a percentage of the weight back. Your comment that drawing and holding back a compound is basically the same as using a CROSSGUN in BS, and either you have never hunted with a compound bow or you are just plain not being honest. I have shot a crossgun, and I even have an archery hunting buddy who uses one during archery season here in Utah. The catch is he has almost no use of his right arm and has a doctors release allowing him to use one during archery season. He would much rather use a compound but a freak accident makes that not possible forever.

On a side note, UBA tried to make it possible for an archer who is allowed to use a crossgun to be able to use a draw-locking system, this was opposed by ONE group, BOU, which ensured that these archers will HAVE to use a crossgun instead of a compound bow. Not cool in my book.
 
>I have no problem with folks
>hunting with a crossbow......as long
>as it's NOT in the
>archery only season. It's
>not a bow & arrow
>in my opinion.
>
>BOHNTR )))---------->

My sentiments exactly.
 
I don't care if someone wants to hunt with one of those THINGS...Not for me!!! No scopes though! I don't think they should ever be allowed to hold any B&C or P&Y records in the archery catagory.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-06 AT 10:18AM (MST)[p]Boskee


" Brad archery tags out here are over the counter so if a guy wants to get off his bump and learn to shoot a bow like everyone else it's fine with me. "
Click to expand...

Can't I say that about compounds ? If you want to archery hunt use a real bow, take the training wheels off, right ?


" The only reason you want them in is so you don't have to take the time to practice to become proficient."
Click to expand...

LOL - I use a longbow, do you have any concept of how much MORE time I spend shooting than most compounders ? So using your rationale, again I can point my finger at compounders, using the same argument to get them out of archery season, right ?

"I have no issue with a handicapped hunter using one during the regular archery season. But they are just like shooting a primative form of a gun."
Click to expand...

A primitive gun ? A crossbow uses gunpowder ? Bullets ? primer ? Fire ? Please tell me how a crossbow is a primitive gun - this should be fun because from what I see, and from what they are, they use two limbs and a string to transer energy which propels a shaft downrange.


"You want them because you want to take the easy way out (admit it). "
Click to expand...

Is that why I shoot a longbow ? LOL - again, you're wrong

"If you're willing to make the committment you would stand erect and draw your bow hold the weight and aim and take your chances like everyone else, Not let a mechanism hold the weight of your string which you don't have the strength to set without assistance and maintain it until you pull the trigger, which allows you a major advantage. "
Click to expand...

Lets talk committment - why do compounders use compounds instead of longbows/recurve ? Answer me that


"So yes I don't buy your argument, even remotely!
Click to expand...
"

All that other stuff you typed is 100% inaccurate as well, and as far as buying my argument ? You cannot refute it, you cannot debate it - and a horse cannot be forced to drink you know ?


proutdoors

"Brad, I use the term 'crossgun' for a reason, it is NOT a bow in the sense one does not have to draw the weight back and HOLD that or a percentage of the weight back."
Click to expand...

So a compound is only 15% bow becaude of its 85% letoff ? Right ?

Letoff does NOT make a bow a bow



"Your comment that drawing and holding back a compound is basically the same as using a CROSSGUN in BS, and either you have never hunted with a compound bow or you are just plain not being honest.
Click to expand...
"

You've never hunted with a longbow, have you ? its VASTLY differnt, and only after hunting with crossbows, compounds for 12 years and a longbow for 4 years now do I fully realize all the differnce.


Do NOT mistake my arguments here to be anti-compound. I'm 100% in favor of recurves, longbows, crossbows and compounds in archery season. Why ? because I LIVE in a state that allows all bows and there is no negative impacts to the herds.

Ya'll can talk all you want about different this, different that ........ but in the end, all those arguments are moot because for every anti-crossbow comment thats made, as a traditional hunter using a recurve I can snub my noses at YOUR choice of easy to use compounds just as quickly and with every bit as much validity. And ya'll know it too.

Here's another facts ya'll cannot dispute - YOUR state defines crossbows as archery weapons. Its true - every state to my knowledge allows crossbows in archery season for handicap. They do NOT allow handi-cap to use guns in archery season, do they ? No - because guns aren't archery weapons, crossbows are.

Only the P&Y club and similar compound associations keep crossbows out of general archery season - and its for one reason only - selfishness. They don't want more people hunting in bow seaosn unless they choose weapons they themselves use.

ironic isn't it ?




triggerhappy


"I don't care if someone wants to hunt with one of those THINGS...Not for me!!! No scopes though! I don't think they should ever be allowed to hold any B&C or P&Y records in the archery catagory.
Click to expand...
"

I would be 100% in favor of no scopes. But that crossbows ARE archery weapons have been categorized for thousands of years.
 
Mr. Lantz:

Where do I begin? It's obvious you have a different opinion and ARE the minority in your views, based on the feedback here. However, I do respect your views. There seems to be a few obvious difference that you seem continue to dance around.

First and foremost, WHAT defines a bow & arrow in MOST states (excluding yours of course) is basically what we are trying to expalin to you. A bow is basically hand drawn BY THE ARCHER, hand held (not shouldered) BY THE ARCHER, held at full draw BY THE ARCHER......until a crossbow does this, it's NOT a bow in my book. It's that simple and undisputable, IMO.

Your Quote: "Only the P&Y club and similar compound associations keep crossbows out of general archery season - and its for one reason only - selfishness. They don't want more people hunting in bow seaosn unless they choose weapons they themselves use."

As a regular member of P&Y and official measurer, I can say you're in left field on this one. Fact is, most of the board and senior members of this Club are traditional style bowhunters. They have no ill-will towards compounds because they UNDERSTAND what defines a bow & arrow.

If you want to shoot a crossbow, have fun. Just don't expect to do it in the "bow only" season here out West. A line has been drawn and it's exactly where it should be, IMO. Good luck.



BOHNTR )))---------->
 
I hunted with a recurve for several years, so I DO know the differences between 'traditional' and compounds. I know people here in Utah who hunt with crossGUNS because of physical disabilities, which I have NO problem with. Like BOHNTR stated, the line has been drawn, and the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of bowhunters do NOT want crossGUNS to be used by able-bodied people. I dont think you will have as much opposition to use them during muzzy season or the ANY weapon seasons.
 
Gee Brad it looks like you pulled out the I use another weapon card when the going got a little tough. I'm happy that you bowhunt with a longbow and a crossbow (where legal) if that's your wish. You will find the going a little tough out here to get those crossbows accepted and that probably isn't going to change. I'll stand on the merits of my arguments as they are written. By the way my wife and I both bow hunt and have enjoyed the fruits of our hunts on many occasions. I started using a Bear Kodiak Magnum in archery and found it to be quite an effective weapon but I honestly prefer the benefits that a compound offers today. That's my choice and it fits within our current laws just fine.
 
I wonder if the 1st and 2nd century Romans had this argument. Longbows or cross-bows on the front lines?

And I am sure there were the usual opponents of cannons when the catapult and trechubet were rendered obsolete by this new technology from China.

TOO FUNNY!

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
The crossgun is NOT a bow. A bow is drawn and held at full draw and then released. Until a crossgun is drawn at the time of the shot it should not be allowed in the archery season for non disabled hunters.

Chad
 
BOHNTR ? a States laws can change, they DO change or 65% letoff, mechanical releases, even mechanical broadheads. Your P&Y Club has changed their views to allow this, and to allow that ? surely you can acknowledge that ? So too do G&F commissions and states add, change, adjust etc laws to govern the game animals to maximize hunters opportunities.

I certainly DO know what is generally considered ?archery? equipment and what isn't, and fact is all states allow crossbows in general archery season. Not for everyone, just handicap hunters, but they don't allow the same handicap hunters to use rifles, do they ? Why not ? because rifles aint bows, crossbows are.

Pruotdoors ? you said ?the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of bowhunters do NOT want crossGUNS to be used by able-bodied people.?

Why is the above true ? I agree it IS true, but to more accurately state that, it would be ? the majority of compound shooters do not want crossbows to be use in general archery season ? ? isn't that about right ?

Why ? Work with me here ??.. lets get to the meat of WHY they don't want them. I mean, recurve shooters don't lobby to keep compounds out, longbow shooters don't lobby to keep compounds out ??? compounds don't lobby to ban recurves/longbows ??? WHY the animosity towads crossbows ? I mean, if your state started allowing crossbows, HOW would it impact your archery season ? Base your answer reasonably and honestly, and we'll go from there ?

Boskee ? its easy to do, isn't it ? I can say ?my weapon is harder to use, so I don't want you to use a weapon that's easier and gives you the advantage in the field ? ? exaclty what the compounders use to argue against crossbows, isn't it ?

How many times have I read ? if you want to hunt in archery season, use the bow I use ! ? because ??.. why ? Why is the reason I'm asking, and the only honest answers I've seen ?

? crossbows would bring in more bowhunters to archery season like compounds have
? crossbows are easier to shoot, like compounds are
? crossbows would increase the number of deer killed like compounds do

Silentstalker ? go to www.m-w.com and type in bow, and the definition will be clear. Drawing a bow, or HOW you draw it has absoltuely NOTHING to do with making a bow a bow. And more proof ? Your state recognizes crossbows as legal archery equipment for handicap hunters, doesn't it ? ARHCERY weapons, not guns, allowed for handicap to use in archery season.

You see ?
 
Are you saying the majority of recurve and longbow shooters favor allowing crossGUNS in general archery seasons? I seriously doubt that. Recurve and longbow hunters DID fight to keep out compounds in the beginning, but the number of hunters/people who supported allowing compounds was higher than those that opposed them, thats how it works in a society like ours in the USA.

My biggest problem with crossGUNS is the NOT having to draw back at a given moment, they already are locked and loaded, can't do that with a recurve, longbow, or compound. I can't even count the number of animals I or someone I was with had to let the animal walk because the animal never gave the hunter a chance to DRAW.

Another problem I have with them is having such short shafts, these 'darts' lose way too much KE for me to feel good about the general public using them. Here in Utah I tried to change the wording in the proclamation to include draw-locking devices as well as crossbows, it was tabled until next year for more research into the affects this would have on moving your agenda forward. I see a draw-locking device on a compound bow as a better option for disabled hunters, but thanks to those of you pushing crossGUNS on everyone, this has been delayed.
 
Brad why can't you admit that the crossbow/gun offers several advantages? We've spelled it out here but you for whatever reason don't want to admit it or acknowledge it. But yet we're wrong and you're right? Need I point out who seems to be in the minority here? Remember it is you that needs to get the rules changed to accept/promote your weapon in more states and more than likely you'll need our support. Why I bet by then, we nasty old compound shooters will be your best friend in spite of all those nasty wheels and pulleys and such. Go figure
 
Proutdoors ? So what are you saying, that thank goodness the bowhunters of yesteryear lost their fight so that you can shoot your compound in archery season ? WHY did they fight the introduction of compounds into archery season ? What was the reasoning ? Was it good that they didn't get their way ?

Let me tell you what I think. They didn't want the woods to have more people in it. They saw bowhunting as something that was suppose to require a lot of time and effort to master. It wasn?t suppose to be easy, it was suppose to be a very close range sport.

Am I close ?

Now are we glad those bowhunters didn't win ? Look at all the bowhunters we have today, or should I say, compounders. The woods are full of them, it's a sport now where minimal amount of practice is requires to shoot 50-60 yards and beyond. Yessir, modern compounds are built and designed with all the gadgets to be THAT accurate. Remember, people gravitate to easy, quick, with little effort, it's a common human trait and it drives the bowhunting business.

Lets look at you other comment on short arrows. Because of the loss of KE, you are really saying that compounds are far better weapons to use in the woods for the general public, right ? Think about that ? you stated basically that crossbows are a more primitive weapon, less likely to help you fill your tag ? harder to hunt with because you need to be closer because of the loss of KE at longer yardages.

And you want to keep a harder to use, less efficient bow out of archery season ?

You insist on calling a crossbow a crossGUN ? that's childish, you do realize that, right ? www.m-w.com has no definition for crossGUN, and neither do any state regulations that I know of. It's a make believe, wives tale word regurgitated from P&Y pamphlets.

Boskee - of course they have advantages ! And disadvantages too (didn't you read proutdoors post on the loss of KE and how it makes crossbows really short range bows ? )

I don't see bowhunting and ?we? or ?mine? or ?yours? Boskee.

There is one thing no one here can refute ? that states allowing crossbows in archery season have had ZERO negative impacts because of them. None. Nada. Zip. No negative impacts on the herd, none on the rules and regs because of them ? nothing. Positive impact would be more bowhunters in the woods, which mean more bowhunting strength to fight the ARA?s and inject hunters into a sport that loses thousands each year.

We?re a dying breed, you know that, right ?

Again, I go back to WHY crossbows shouldn't be allowed. You can't use the old ? how you draw it? because as a recurve shooter I can use the same on your compounds. It can't be about letoff ? even the P&Y has changed what is and isn't a bow due to letoff. Its not about state G&F regulations, because they all recognize crossbows as archery tackle for handicap.

Its not about negative impact, Canadian provinces, Iowa and other states have excellent hunting, and crossbows are legal.

So really now, WHAT makes a crossbow bad ?

Crossbows aren't any more accurate, or better bows to hunt with, and we can debate that too but with the loss of KE and downrange accuracy, the loudness of them and how heavy and bulky they are, I'll take a light, quiet , fast Mathews and shoot 80 yards with it all day long ! And so do most bowhunters who hunt in crossbow legal states ? they know what bows are best hunting weapons !

Maybe its that ya?ll just have never had to think about why they shouldn't be allowed and write it down ? Challenging to try and PROVE why, isn't it ?

I'm from Arkansas. We have had crossbows for decades. I'm speaking from experience, not guesstimates and just typing what I've been told or my buddy says. I don't care WHAT bow another guy takes, their seasonal limit on deer is the same as mine, kill it with archery, muzzleloader or gun, don't bother me.


If anyone is against technology in archery season, draw a line, make a stand and call it fairly.

If you think archery tackle is becoming too high tech, make your line in the stand and don't pick and choose who can cross and who can't.

If you're selfish and want it all to yourself, just admit it and let people know you're that way.


But a valid argument does NOT exist to allow compounds and not allow crossbows in archery season. I'm sorry, it just doesn't.
 
Brad, all the states you have mentioned and Canada have an abundance of deer, correct me if I am wrong but in Arkansas you can harvest several deer. Most states out west don't even have enough deer for all who wish to hunt to be issued a tag, let alone take more than one animal. So you are comparing apples to oranges, we have a limited resource here and increasing the number of deer killed could be devastating to the health of the herd. Not once have I used the argument of too many hunters in the woods during archery season. I would love to see fewer rifle hunters and more archers in the field myself, so that does NOT fly with me.

The reason KE concerns me is because of wounded and unrecovered animals as a result of crossGUNS( sorry I can't help myself). This would ADD fuel to the animal lovers not defuse it. Don't tell me all who would use a crosGUN would limit thier shot to 20 yards or less, I aint buying. I would love to see crossGUNS done away with for most disabled hunters, I would prefer they use a draw-locking device attached to a COMPOUND bow. I know there are some who physically could not use a draw-lock and thus the option to use either would be the best route IMHO. I have talked with several crossGUN hunters in Utah and have yet to talk to one who would shoot a crossGUN over a draw-locking system when given a choice.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-06 AT 04:25PM (MST)[p]Brad, And that's exactly how your unbiased mind sees it in the year of our lord 2006AD. Sorry thing is you can't seem to accept the fact that there are quite a few opposing opinions to your UNBIASED approach (that's life). Remember this Brad just because you may get the last word doesn't mean you'll get our approval and support so in the end you still lose. I surely hope your not a spokesperson for the cause because you're running off more than you'll ever gain with that very diplomatic approach. Excuse us but some of us are just a little wary of some slick talking guy from Arkansas when the last one we listened to got caught in the closet! He fibbed to us too!
 
Proutdoors ?You say you'd love to see fewer rifle hunters ? wow, that's really going to help us fight the anti-hunters huh ? But you want MORE bowhunters in the field, hunting the limited resource you already mentioned, and you don't want them to use any bow that's easier than what you use, is that about right ?

You wanna talk about missed/wounded animals ? Its NEVER the weapon, always the shooter that results in wounded animals. Please don't join the ?guns kill people? group. Guns NEVER kill anyone, and bows NEVER wound animals, its always people doing both.

Boskee ? do tell on the guy who got caught ? Should be a good story.

Look, again, I'm not so much pro-crossbow as I am pro-bowhunting and allowing people to choose their weapons. FACTS are that crossbows are not negative to archery season. Am I in the minority ? How many states have allowed crossbows in the past 5 years ? How many guys are complaining from those states ? None, because they have them now, and see that there are no negatives to them, there is no mad rush to the woods, no huge increases in kills, you still have to shoot 20 yards at deer etc etc.

No negative impacts, only positives. Ya?ll can't argue that, sorry
 
Brad sorry to wade in right in the middle of this fine debate about the bolt casting crossGUN.

So if there is very little advantage to this crossgun
I shouldnt be able to get out of my 72 degree truck and crank the string back before my muscles are to cold to do it when a shot opportunity presents itself. It been in the single digits in Utah lately ever tried to draw a bow with all the clothes you need to make a huhnt in this weather bearable?? not much advantage there.

Or my personal favorite of dozing off with the crossGUN laying across my lap knowing that all I have to do is get THE BUTTSTOCK STOCK UP TO MY SHOULDER HOLD ON TO THE FORARM STOCK
SIGHT IN ON THE ANIMAL THROUGH MY SCOPE TAKE THE SAFETY OFF AND PULL THE TRIGGER. Not much of an advantage if ya ask me

How about hiding in a downfall knowing that I won't have to worry about movement or my clothes rustling on leaves or branches because after I flip the safety off the only thing that needs to move is my trigger finger.

OK lets see BUTTSTOCK, FORARM STOCK, SAFETY, SCOPE, TRIGGER,
DEAD REST, NO DRAW CYCLE IN THE PRESENCE OF GAME. sure sounds like archery equipment doesn't it.

It's archery season it ain't supposed to be easy. If ya want to hunt with a weapon that has a stock, safety, scope and the ability to get a shot off without going through a draw cycle in the presence of game. get r done... with all of the other weapons that have stocks and safeties.

OK now tell me how ignorant how un educated I am
great thanks just keep the crossguns away from this hick boy OK
 
Brad,I am not a rocket scientist, but I can add TWO + TWO = FOUR. Follow along, I said REDUCE the number of rifle hunters; they kill at a higher percentage than archers: increase the number of archers to harvest the same number/or less number of deer; are you still with me? Again REDUCING rifle hunters while at the SAME time increasing the number of archers. Less deer killed with more hunters, this is FIRST GRADE MATH.

Hunting animals with ineffective weapons DOES wound animals, and increase lost animals. They have minimum draw weights and minimum broadhead size for GOOD reasons, to INCREASE the effectiveness of the weapon being used, just like they have minimum ballistics for rilfes to used on big game, BECAUSE ITS BETTER FOR THE SPECIES BEING HUNTED. You can't hunt elk with a pellet gun, even though I am sure a properly placed pellet could be fatal.

We as ETHICAL hunters should strive for ways and weapons that increase the effectiveness of the hunt in regards to putting an animal down humanely, not strive for ways and weapons that minimize EFFORT and decrease the effectiveness of the hunt.
 
I live in wyoming and have taken up hunting during the archery season with a crossbow and so far i have been able to harvest 1 antelope and 2 elk with it in 6 years of hunting. I am a firm believer in allowing hunting with a crossbow. A person must still get as close to the animal as hunting with any other archery equipment witch itself is the most challenging. With a crossbow i would not shoot at any animal over 50 yards and then you hear of those individuals shooting at animals farther than that with a compound bow and many never recovering the animal. I also feel if the crossbow is not allowed then why is a compund bow allowed. A true archery only season would be a long bow or recurve with no sights all. Just my thoughts on the matter.
 
Wileywapati ? Your points on the ease of using a crossbow is correct, you showed that they are easier to use than other bows, and how. You neglected to mention how they are extremely loud, heavy, a one shot deal etc. you also said

?OK lets see BUTTSTOCK, FORARM STOCK, SAFETY, SCOPE, TRIGGER,
DEAD REST, NO DRAW CYCLE IN THE PRESENCE OF GAME. sure sounds like archery equipment doesn't it. ?

Yes, it is archery equipment and your state recognizes it as such. The way the arrow is propelled is what make a bow a bow, isn't it ? And remember, your compounds have triggers, high letoff, some have scopes, and the draw in the presence of game is eliminated with a compound. You can draw, and hold, well before the animal is actually THERE in your presence.

But if we're going to show how crossbows are easier, let us also look at compounds, and recurves, and longbows. Actually I have already done that, but no one wants to talk about how compounds are actually BETTER weapons to have in your hand because they're quiet, light, fast, very accurate and you can drill groups at 70-80 yards and beyond ? all of which a recurve, longbow and crossbow are not.

Proutdoors ? Okay, lets do that. Lets take away rifle hunters, and let them hunt in archery season for the reasons you suggested. And lets take it a step further, instead of placing limits on those hunters to use only the weapons YOU want them to use, we'll let them choose whatever THEY want to use, and the G&F will allow crossbows and everything will be cool. Right ?

Oh, I bet you wouldn't like that, because those bowhunters would have a choice to use crossbows, which you don't like because ??.. what was the reason again ?

Let looks at it closer. You said proutdoors ? We as ETHICAL hunters should strive for ways and weapons that increase the effectiveness of the hunt in regards to putting an animal down humanely, not strive for ways and weapons that minimize EFFORT and decrease the effectiveness of the hunt. ?

Will you stand by that ? Rate recurves, self bows, longbows, compounds and crossbows for me. Rate the above 5 categories of bows and tell me which afford hunters the best chances of making ethical kills. Let me tell you what I think

? selfbows tie with recurves and longbows as the most difficult to use and thus the most difficult to to hunt with

? crossbows follow because while they have 100% letoff, they are also loud, short range, heavy and bulky to use and offer only 1 shot

? crompounds are the best, that's why most bowhunters use them. They are high tech, designed to be very accurate, 70-80 yards accurate, they're fast, 85% and above letoffs, triggered releases, ultra quiet, light in the hand, second shots aren't uncommon.

So using your statement, we need to really try and eliminate recurves, selfbows and longbows and crossbows, and only keep the ultra high tech compounds.

Right ?

But there's a problem. Bowhunting isn't suppose to be easy. It existed since the very first bow seasons to maximize hunters days afield and provide challenge. The Fathers of Bowhunting, Pope, Young, Bear, Pearson, etc etc all used the bows that above are considerably LESSER weapons than the compounds. Did they do it wrong for decades ? And if we're comparing things, lets ban archery altogether because certainly rifles make for a more ethical hunt, right ?

Sorry man, your argument is full of holes, it really is. An Ethical Hunter is just that, what weapons he chooses does not make him any less, or more, ethical. A guy with a rifle can be a LOT more unethical than a guy with a selfbow, though one has a far superior weapon.

So you see, we go all around again to the bottom line ? hunters choice in bows. All states recognize crossbows as legal archery weapons. Ya?ll don't have much to say on that I see ? Handicap people cannot use muzzleloader, or handguns, or rifles in archery season ??. But they can use any bow they choose, be it a compound, crossbow or other, can't they ?

Chriswy --- And why do you think crossbows are ok ? Because your state allows them, it has no negative impact on your herds, or your archery season, and you've tried it yourself and realize that the hunting is almost IDENTICAL until its time to shoot, and only then does what bow you choose have any impact at all.

Most anti-crossbow people have never had any contact with them, lived in states that allow them or have ever had original thoughts on the subject. They follow what P&Y and local archery clubs preach and the truth is ? Its all propaganda that's founded in lies, partial trues and nothing factual. I'm sorry, its not, and continuing to believe crossbows are bad ? You might as well believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy too because they have as much fact backing them as crossbows being bad for archery has.

I've debated this a long time. I don't use a crossbow, I have no use for one. I've been shooting a recurve for the past few years, might go back to compound this next year. I'm not pro-crossbow as much as I am PRO-BOW and I realize that compounds ARE the better weapons, and allowing a lesser weapon like a crossbow does no negatives to a states archery season
 
This is long but bear with my the original story in on the
North American Bowhunting Coalition website.
I think the web address is www.nabowhunting.org

If ya take the time to read the test results you will see
that a person that had never fired a crossbow, within 20 shots was shooting sub 4 inch 5 shot groups AT 100 FREAKING YARDS




Crossbow Tests March 2005

Great Lakes Crossbow Co.



DURANGO



The reason for conducting these tests was to establish a basis for performance measurements between modern crossbows and other hunting weapons, most specifically, modern compound bows. Given the movement to redefine crossbows as conventional archery tackle so as to allow their use during bowhunting-only seasons, it seemed appropriate to provide a means for comparison. Of particular interest was the accuracy potential of a rested crossbow at extended ranges. Crossbow manufacturers list velocity and pull weights, but I am not aware of any published accuracy expectations.



In early March 2005 I obtained a Great Lakes Crossbow Co. Durango model crossbow in slightly used condition. While it does not have as high peak weight (165 pounds) as many of the ?high performance? crossbows that peak at 175 pounds to 200 pounds, it does have a 17-inch power stroke, and overall, it's velocity and kinetic energy ratings compare favorably with other modern crossbows.



This crossbow has an overall weight of 8 ? lbs., 34-inch length without the stirrup, and very heavy two-piece limbs with an axle-to-axle length of 27 ? inches. It uses round cams, approximately 2 9/16 inches in diameter. It comes fitted with a 4 power, parallax adjustable scope with hand adjustable windage and elevation turrets. The trigger has a pull weight of over 7 pounds, with considerable creep and overtravel. While the crossbow does have a crossbolt safety, it can't be engaged until after the crossbow is cocked and it is in an awkward location to operate safely. Five bolts were also provided. They were fitted with 100 grain screw-in target points and 5? vanes at a slight straight offset. The shafts are 2219 Easton aluminum, cut to 22 1/8 inches before inserts and had an average weight, with points, of 476 grains.



Although as the shooter, I have no previous experience shooting crossbows, I do have considerable experience in competitive rifle shooting.





The first test took place indoors on March 10th. A total of 4 bolts were shot before the cocking mechanism broke under pressure, causing minor damage and some trepidation on the part of the operator. The crossbow was rested across a stool with all 4 shots taken at 22 yards. The initial shot was used to adjust the sights and find a hard spot on the bales where the bolts wouldn't pass completely through them, and then three shots were taken at the same point of aim. The first was taken then pulled. The second entered within ? inch of the first bolt hole and then a third was shot, which hit right next to the second and almost exactly in the hole that the first was pulled from. As mentioned, the cocking winch broke at that point, but a three shot group of under ? inches was a pretty impressive start.



After the winch was repaired I was back at the range on March 12th to shoot at longer distances. The crossbow was shot from a shooting bench



with sandbags. I had shimmed the back of the scope .050 because I anticipated that the scope would run out of elevation adjustment before it could be held dead-on at the longer ranges I hoped to shoot it at. It turned out not to be necessary because even at 90 yards, the bolt sailed over the whole bale assembly. It was recovered but was bent badly due to impact with a tree. The shims came out. After four shots at 40 and 60 yards to get ?on? the bales I moved to 90 yards and impacted below my aiming point. I then adjusted the scope to the bulls-eye and shot a four shot group with the four straight bolts I had remaining. The aiming point was a scrap of white paper. The first shot hit about 1 inch left of the paper, the second hit it, the third hit about 4 inches right and the final one, less than an inch right. The final 90-yard group was a horizontal string less than 5 inches across. Penetration was approximately 8 inches into frozen and practically new excelsior bales.



Even though these results surprised me, I felt this crossbow was actually capable of better accuracy. Conditions were not good with variable winds to at least 10 mph. Also, I wanted to straighten the bent bolt so I could shoot a 5 shot group.



In checking the bolts when I got home, I found that all but one were bent at least .005. I don't know if they came that way or it was the result of impact and/or removal from the frozen bales, but I straightened them the best I could. Unfortunately, the bolt that hit the tree couldn't be straightened sufficiently.



I returned to the range on March 25th. Conditions were better with light winds, temperature in the low 40?s and clear skies. With the aid of a laser rangefinder, I set my bench up (across the parking lot) exactly 100 yards from the farthest bale. I used a rifle bipod instead of sandbags to rest the stock and had adjusted the scope in the rings to avoid canting.



I took two shots to get me close to the bulls-eye, then put up a new target and shot the four almost-straight bolts. The four shot group measured just slightly less than 4 inches across. Because I prefer to shoot 5 shot groups for rifle testing, I pulled the bolts, returned to the bench and shot a fifth bolt. It hit within the holes from the previous four shots, so the 5 shot group at 100 yards measured less than 4 inches across, with 4 of the 5 shots hitting within a 3-inch circle.



With straight carbon bolts and perhaps some fine tuning of equipment, I don't doubt that this could be improved upon, however, this level of long range accuracy exceeded my wildest expectations - and concerns.



I have never fired a crossbow before in my life. And now within 20 shots can group 5 bolts into 4 inches at 100 yards with a borrowed crossbow. I can say that I have owned some deer rifles in my life that haven't grouped that well at 100 yards. However, because of a much greater trajectory curve for the bolt and longer time of flight, the rifle would still be superior unless wind was light and the exact distance was known. Which brings up an interesting point. Ten years ago this very same crossbow wouldn't have been nearly as effective as a long range weapon because range estimation at that time was far less precise. However, with the development of technology completely unrelated to crossbows ? laser rangefinders - this crossbow in conjunction with one becomes a bona fide 100-yard killing machine. It would only be a matter of laser ranging the target, dialing the elevation to that exact



distance setting on a scope like the one that came with this crossbow, and then putting the crosshairs on the heart and pulling the trigger. The whole process takes just a few seconds. Pre-ranging distances and using a mil-dot scope would eliminate even that short time.



This is only one crossbow. I don't doubt statements by others that have shot crossbows, particularly older models, that say they are not accurate at longer distances. However, this one is. And if this and other newer models have this potential, then everyone that can hunt with one has essentially the same potential; because accuracy is almost completely a function of mechanical action with no significant skill required.



One consideration that I can't comment on is potential variations in accuracy using broadheads. I suspect, but can't confirm until our sand bunkers thaw out, that given the substantially heavier projectile fired from a crossbow, especially with mechanical broadheads, projectile flight can be controlled.



I will leave it to those that read this to form their own opinions on the effect this type of weapon would have on a bow-only season, but there is no question that with widespread use, the effect would be significant, not only on the bow-only season itself, but also upon the harvest dynamics of all seasons for the species involved.





Mike Brust,

Wausau, WI
 
I have shot crossGUNS and have friends who hunt with them, but I already stated that, reread my posts all the way through and you'll see that. I also stated that I would prefer all those currently hunting w/crossGUNS in Utah had the option of a draw-locking device, again I stated this BEFORE as well.I believe a compound bow is a BETTER option than a crossGUN period. I see NO GOOD REASONS to allow crossGUNS to be used by the general public, NONE. In order to CHANGE the CURRENT laws YOU must have reasons of VALUE justifing the CHANGES. It is not good policy to CHANGE laws just because someone LIKES the idea. The burden is NOT on me or others who oppose the CHANGES, the burden is at YOUR feet to justify the CHANGES. Thats how our GREAT form of government works.
 
Well Brad, I guess that this article pretty much sums it up that there IS A HUGE ADVANTAGE WITH A CROSSGUN. I'll bet you that most of the guys shooting a compound couldn't come close to that level of accuracy at 65 yards. Before you go into endless debate over this I do know exactly what level of accuracy an individual is capable with with a compound and a longbow. Based on the proof furnished Brad let's just agree to disagree and move on.
 
Wileywapati ? All good and fine, you very well know that compounds are 80-100 yard weapons too, right ?

BTW what drop did those crossbow arrows have at 100 yards ?

? I see NO GOOD REASONS to allow crossGUNS to be used by the general public, NONE?

proutdoors ? using the above , give me one good reason to allow compounds.

Boskee ? IF crossbows are such the advantage, answer me this one question and I'll join you in your anti-crossbow campaign. The question to answer is this ? in Arkansas, few people use crossbows, the vast majority use compounds. Why ? You stated crossbows as a HUGE ADVANTAGE ??. If so, why do people still choose compounds are their choice in archery tackle ? We already know as fact people don't want to make things difficult, its human nature, that's why recurves/longbows only make up a very small percentage of hunter.

So why do people use compounds over crossbows ? I'll answer that for you, since I live in a crossbow state ? they are NOT an advantage. They are heavy, cumbersome, one shot, loud and while they do have advantages, their disadvantages far outweigh and bowhunters realize it ? that's why.



BTW guys, as hunter participation continues to decline, more and more states will allow crossbows as legal in archery season. YOUR state will allow them soon enough, and when they do ? Your archery season will not be negatively impacted at all. Remember these threads when that happens .......
 
Quote: "Wileywapati ? All good and fine, you very well know that compounds are 80-100 yard weapons too, right? BTW what drop did those crossbow arrows have at 100 yards ?"

Haven't you been stating that they are NOT that proficient/accurate, therefore, should be allowed? Now that the article has stated they are, have you changed your view?

Quote: "So why do people use compounds over crossbows ?"

Has it ever occurred to you that those compound bowhunters may in fact want to shoot what MANY consider a real bow & arrow? Furthermore, they may want the additional challenge AND practice needed to be proficient with a bow & arrow and NOT the easier "shoot it like a rifle" use of a crossbow.

Quote: "BTW guys, as hunter participation continues to decline, more and more states will allow crossbows as legal in archery season. YOUR state will allow them soon enough, and when they do?"

I don't know if I agree with that here in the West. I sit on a committee for our state archery Big Game Club and we work closely with Fish & Game. The board and F&G are against crossbows in the archery season and we will continue to fight ANY movement to create such a statute.

I think Boskee has said it best......we just need to agree to disagree. You're not going to change your view and we will never change ours. Good luck and have fun.



BOHNTR )))---------->
 
Simply because they are ALREADY legal, grossguns are NOT. As an avid archer I will fight hard to keep GROSSguns from being legalized during archery season. Luckily here in Utah the DWR director is an archer and is strongly against grossguns for the general public. I will continue to oppose them until Brad or others can come up with GOOD reasons to change the current laws. I do not believe in change just for the sake of change, get BETTER reasons Brad and I'll listen.

It started as a typo on gross/cross, but I like gross better anyways.
 
This is a STUPID argument!!!
Bowhunting, Rifle hunting, Muzzleloader hunting, Crossbow hunting.
It's all still hunting. If you use and support crossbow hunting, fine. If you don't that's fine too. But the more we battle amongst
each other and all our little factions, the more we weaken ourselves against those who would have us not hunt at all!!!
I use a crossbow because I've got a bum shoulder and my state allows it with a permit. I wouldn't be able to bowhunt in late season cold with a compound, unless it was about 35 lbs.
My crossbow keeps me bowhunt'in when otherwise I couldn't.
In my opinion that's a good thing. I also think a good compound shooter will outshoot a crossbow shooter most of the time.
Crossbows are not the "rifle" everybody thinks they are.
They're touchy and radical and are not very forgiving.
Forgive my rant, but, if you don't use a particular weapon, fine, but don't criticize and belittle those that do.
Let's just hunt!!!







"Good mass & long brow tines"
 
I don't think folks here (incuding me) are critcizing their use as much as what season they belong in.

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
Well, if "crossgun" and "grossgun" aren't criticisms, I guess your right.
I think this is basically an East/West controversy.
With the overpopulated whitetail herds in the East, the crossbow has become a viable mgt. tool for state wildlife agencies. I realize that's not the case with states out West.
But, agree with it's use or not, the crossbow has become a popular hunting weapon and is here to stay.
Historically, rifle hunters have resented bowhunters cause of their early and long seasons, as do muzzleloader hunters. Rifle hunters also aren't very supportive of early muzzleloader seasons either.
Some traditional archers back in the sixties and seventies were dead set against the use of compound bows and to some extent still resent them even today.
So what I'm trying to impart is that as hunters, in this day and age, we must be more tolerant of each other's methods and not continually take "pot-shots" at each other cause we all choose different means to enjoy the same passion....hunting!!!!
'nuff said




"Good mass & long brow tines"
 
Buck rub, you are right that we should all be nicer and more tolerant.

If you are looking for this weapon to be accepted out west, you are in for a fight. Wether it be lower deer numbers or something else, this weapon will not work its way into western bowhunting with out stiff opposition. The fact is, any weapon that does not require you to draw it at the moment of the shot is not a camparable weapon to a bow. No matter if it is a compound, recurve or long bow.

I am not debating the fact that it is lethal, and a great fit for many, but it does not belong in a season where the rest of the hunters have to draw their weapon of choice without being seen, hold it at full draw until the animal is in the best position for the shot and then be released. The only exception to this is disabled hunters with a Dr.'s note.

To argue they are the same as a bow that is drawn at the moment of the shot is simply wrong. They are not.

Agree or disgree, that is your right and I respect your oppinion. Have a great day.

Chad
 
Quote- ? Haven't you been stating that they are NOT that proficient/accurate, therefore, should be allowed? Now that the article has stated they are, have you changed your view? ?

One study is ?proof? ? I think not ?? I've had crossbows, shot them ??. And like other bowhunters I'll take a compound any day.

Quote - ?Has it ever occurred to you that those compound bowhunters may in fact want to shoot what MANY consider a real bow & arrow? ?

LOL ? a real bow and arrow is a recurve/longbow. Bowhunters don't want to use those because they're hard to use. And they don't choose crossbows in states that allow them because they too are troublesome and frankly, compounds are better hunting weapons.

BOHNTR ? I was anti-crossbow up until a few years ago when I switch to traditional archery. Any attempts to argue that the functionality separates bows is irrelevant because of how easy compounds are to shoot in todays high tech world. You cannot argue against crossbows based on technology without arguing against compounds too.

It's impossible.

So take another angle, and say that crossbows will mean more hunters, more animals killed, leading to a lesser season and smaller bag limit. No, that don't hold water, because in states that allow crossbows for everyone in archery season, no facts exist that point to that ? its simply a wives tale.

I use to argue then that the ?character? of the typical crossbow hunter isn't quality. They brought in unfavorables into archery season. But then after bowhunting for so many years, I know that slobs shoot every kind of weapon available, it has NOTHING to do with the weapon, at all.

So I went the route that P&Y uses ? that a bow isn't a bow unless you have to draw ?in the presence of game ? ? that's laughable after shooting a longbow the past few years. In retrospect, I NEVER drew my bow with the animal in my presence. I ALWAYS drew my bow as the animal came in, as its head was behind a tree etc, and then I held until the shot presented itself, or rather, until the animal moved into my presence. That's not understood by bowhunters unless you've hunted with trad bows.

So its not the shootability of the bow really, its not the draw in the presence of game, its not who shoots them and there is no evidence that crossbows ever lead to negatives. So WHY are we against them again ?

And I couldn't generate a good argument, and I changed my view. I refuse to be a sheep, led along by what others say without thinking it through and coming to my own conclusions.




Proutdoors ? you keep saying how you want to fight to keep them out, but you can offer NO valid reasons why.

Never have crossbows in general archery season been anything but positive. That is fact

They are no better a weapon, proven by archers who choose compounds over them where crossbows are legal.

There is no ?drawing the presence? argument, because compounders don't draw in the presence either.

Nothing ya?ll put forward holds water, nothing. I've been through these debates the last couple of years ? I was on YOUR side of it for a couple.

? get BETTER reasons Brad and I'll listen. ?

Cool. The same reasons compounds were allowed, so too should crossbows. The same reasons mechanical releases, fiber sights, greater than 65% letoff and mechanical broadheads were allowed, so too should crossbows. Every state to my knowledge that has allowed crossbows for everyone (not just handicap) has seen an increase in bowhunter numbers. That's a GOOD thing, not a negative.

Are those good enough reasons ?

Buckrub ? I'm not criticizing you, but yes, others hate that you use crossbows.

The whole ?western? argument is silly. I lived in Colorado for several years. I've hunted NM, WY, SD, CO and several other states. The ?herds? would not any more negatively affected by crossbows than they are with compounds, recurves and longbows. Why ? Because much of out west is tag systems, and very limited tagging. Does it matter if I use my 6 PP?s and hunt with a compound or a crossbow ? No, it doesn't.

The only thing I can see, is that crossbows might bring in more bowhunters. Gawd that would be HORRIBLE, wouldn't it ? Talk about selfishness ???
 
Brad,

Do you read any of these posts? Drawing in the presence of the animal IS THE ISSUE. To say it is not an issue is flat out calling the sky green. I admire your passion but you are not being realistic and you sure are not in the majority. The crossbow is a viable weapon. It DOES NOT BELONG in a season with weapons that are drawn in the presence of an animal. Compounds,Recurves, and Long bows are ALL drawn in the presence of the animal. You can NOT dispute that. End of Story and I am OUT!

Chad
 
Quote: "So I went the route that P&Y uses ? that a bow isn't a bow unless you have to draw ?in the presence of game ? ? that's laughable after shooting a longbow the past few years."

Brad:

Just so your clear as to what P&Y says and doesn't say, here's their correct definition of a bow & arrow, which I (and many others) agree with. Again, I'm not anti-crossbow.....just not in a bow only season, as they do not qualify as a bow, IMO:

Definition of a bow & arrow:

1. A device for launching an arrow, which derives its propulsive energy solely from the bending and recovery of two limbs.

2. The bow must be hand drawn by a single and direct, uninterrupted pulling action of the shooter. The bowstring must be moved from brace height to the full draw position by the muscle power of the shooter?s body. The energy used to propel the arrow shall not be derived from any other source such as hydraulic, pneumatic, mechanical or similar devices. These limitations shall not exclude the mechanical leverage advantage provided by eccentric wheels or cams so long as the available energy stored in the bent limbs of the bow is the sole result of a single, continuous, and direct pulling effort by the shooter.

3. The bow must be hand-held. One hand shall hold the bow and the other hand draw the bowstring. The bowstring must be moved and/or held at all points in the draw cycle entirely by the muscle power of the shooter until release. The bowstring must be released as a direct and conscious action of the shooter?s eiter relaxing the tension of the fingers or triggering the release action of a hand-held release aid.

4. The bow shall be no shorter than 30 inches.

B. Exceptions: Physically handicapped bowhunters shall be excepted from the requirements of holding or shooting the bow with their hands.

C. Exclusions:

1. The following shall NOT be considered a hunting bow:

a. A crossbow.

b. Any device with a gun-type stock or incorporating any device or mechanism that holds the bowstring at partial or full draw without the shooter?s muscle power.

c. Electronic or battery-powered devices shall not be attached to a hunting bow.

d. No portion of the bow?s riser (handle) or any track, trough, channel or other device that attaches directly to the bow?s riser shall contact, support, and/or guide the arrow from a point rearward of the bow?s brace height.

I understand and respect your view, but it doesn't mean I (and others) have to agree with it. Nothing your selling is being bought here. We'll simply have to agree to disagree, as this thread is simply spinning it's wheels now.



BOHNTR )))---------->
 
Anyone making the claim that you dont draw in the presence of an animal with a compound is either full of donkey dung or flat out not being honest. I have bowhunted for 25+ years and rarely does an animal give one the chance to draw and THEN walk into position for me to shoot. I can't even come close to counting the number of times I have drawn and had to let down because the animal didnt 'walk' out, nor can I count the number of animals that came in so quick I didnt have 'time' to draw before the animal was in full view. Drawing IS a HUGE factor and that IS the truth and you, Brad, know it.
 
I think I'll side with the Pope and Young over Arkansas. Not even a hard choice.
 
myth #2 - drawing in the "presence" of game

I just browsed quite a few youtube bowhunts - all of them showed compounders drawing, holding while the deer moved into position to shoot ( the deer were NOT in the presence before the bow was drawn )

I couldn't find one video that was uploaded where the deer was right there when the bow was drawn, like a traditional bow shot would have to be.

Ya'll want to talk differences ? Sure, theres a difference, a crossbow and a compound neither one is drawn in the presence of game. Both are drawn BEFORE the animal is there, one a lot more before than the other, but thats not what ya'll are wanting to make this about, is it ?

Nobody draws and holds a recurve/longbow for 8-10 seconds of longer.


So we know now that states that have legalized crossbows have no ill affects, and we know that drawing in the presence of the animal isn't what its about either.

Ya'll got anything else ? I can debunk everything you throw at me concerning crossbows. Why ? Because (A) I use to be anti-crossbow until (B) I had to prove WHY and (C) I live in a crossbow legal state and know 1st hand the myths surrounding them
 
quote - I think I'll side with the Pope and Young over Arkansas. Not even a hard choice.


Why ? Do P&Y make the rules that the G&F follow ?

Hey, lets talk a bit about the 65% letoff rules. Everyone backed that because P&Y said it was "the right thing" ...... errrrr until P&Y realized they would die without letting >65% letoff be "members" and thus they changed their rules.

P&Y is good for bowhunting to a degree. That P&Y doesn't include all bowhunters is truly sad. Talk about division ! Anyway, P&Y is a private club that have rules that best benefit their own agenda's like any private club. Nothing more really, and nothing less.
 
You really don't get it do you? I won't debate this any longer with you. You don't care what P&Y says? Of course you don't. No one ever draws in the presence of Game? You are flat out WRONG. Just because the animal is walking behind the tree or bush does not mean it is not in the presence of the hunter. In your theory you act like someone draws back there bow and sits and waits until an animal comes in! That is exactly what crossbows do. Your passion is getting the best of you. The crossbow does not belong in the archery season plain and simple. Good luck to you in your conquest. You really have some interesting interpretations. I will not reply any more to you on this specific thread. Have a great day.

CHad
 

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