Cranker Rams. . . .

TFinalshot · Mar 11, 2008

I have a question for you sheep experts.

I'm curious, how can a guy tell 2 inches of ram horn, then make a prediction that it might be a new world record all from seeing a few pictures? How can anyone tell if the ram in the photos of a similar titled is of a 207 or 209 ram for that matter? It seems to me that one could say they are world class and have world record potential but how do you get a score from those pictures that could justify a prediction?

I'm not saying it cant be done, what I'm asking is HOW someone tell a 206 from a 208 ram especially from those pictures?

They are very big sheep for sure, in fact I'm positive they are world class rams, but explain HOW anyone could an know it's 206 to 208.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm trying understand what you guys are using to determine that this is potentially the new world record ram, and if it is, I think the Crousen ram is 208 3/8.

ismith · Mar 11, 2008

Calibrated eyeballs?
ismith

roger · Mar 11, 2008

The key is in the bases. There are some sheephunters that can determine within a few inches of a final score if they can determine the circumference of the base. There are also a lot of other references that can be used to make a good estimation for the additional circumferences. Understanding the amount of horn drop and also knowing some of the genetic history are just two examples. Indeed there is some guess work and luck on the final score.

Also realize that the Cadomin rams can be photographed at less than 10 feet. It's not like you have having to judge them through a scope at one mile away.

I think sheep are a lot easier to judge than whitetails and there are many hunters than can nail a whitetail score.

Roger

sheepeater · Mar 11, 2008

TF-Exactly what Roger said, those are some really close up shots of those Rams, they are not that hard to judge especially after you have put a tape to a few, and I have seen some big boys on the ground here in Montana and a couple in Colorado, I have been around big sheep most of my life, and I am pretty sure I saw the world record in the Highlands in Montana back in the early nineties, not sure what happened to him though. Anyway it is like any other species that you spend alot of time around, you get educated, of course I have been wrong, but i think sheep are the easiest of the big game to score, yep that bigger ram is running in contention for the big boy award.

TFinalshot · Mar 12, 2008

still like to know how you tell two inches on a ram horn, especially when they are in the world record category.

Maybe the better question is this:

If you were guiding a sheep hunter and he paid $200k for the tag, your job was to find him the next world recored, you came upon the sheep in the "cranker ram" post by BCBOY, would you put your license, name, and guide fee on the line to say, "shoot that ram, he IS the next world record!" and if you would, how did you come to that conclusion. . .?

Thanks,

Bigbuck9 · Mar 12, 2008

I can't even judge sheep but I guarantee you if I was guiding someone and saw those rams I would tell him you better shot that big one cause you will probably never see another one any bigger than him. You of all people should know it is about the hunt not the final score!

TFinalshot · Mar 12, 2008

LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-08 AT 11:24AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-08 AT 11:00 AM (MST)

I too would shoot one of those monster rams - world record or not. But, Bigbuck, your wrong when it comes to world record bighorn sheep - sure there are places where a new world record might come from, they may even offer a "hunt" but for the sheep in question, it likely wont be much of a "hunt."

I do like and agree with your attitude, but this post is not about the hunt especially when it comes to the sheep discussed in the cranker ram post. . . It's all about the score, the hunt, if there is much of one, is a bonus. . . There is almost know one that would turn down a world class ram if they had the tag, because there's not much of a "hunt."

So, back to the issue, one guy said, "determine within a few inches of a final score if they can determine the circumference of the base. . ." My point exactly. . .

This statement supports the point I'm trying to make, "within a couple of inches" IS WAY more than what it will take to win the world, and more than likely more that the a new record would score anyhow. So, assuming there's a new world record out there , and it likely will be within an inch or so of the current recored, would you put your name on the line for the sheep in the cranker ram post, and if you would how did you come to that conclusion? If you would not, tell us why it's not big enough and how you know . . .

If you say yes that ram really is bigger than the existing record, it really is just an educated guess and you cant be sure until you put your tape on him, which means there really is no way to know given one or two inches, if a particular sheep will beat the world record. . . or is there?

SPAZ · Mar 12, 2008

Tony, come on now. You know as well as any brite person that it's all just an educated guess. Even folks really skilled at judging animals can be off, sometimes considerably.. too many factors. You won't find anybody who, given a couple close up photos, will bet all they own on it being within 2" of their guess... although there will be plenty guys who will argue to the death that they are just "that damn good at it." Pretty funny if you ask me. Those rams sure are big honkers though!

TFinalshot · Mar 12, 2008

I'm not so sure, some of the guys seem to think they can nail the number, and if that's true I want to know how they do it.

I curious if there is a way to be that accurate. I know that there are guys out there that can say that's a big ram and guess the length of the horn and even the base, but to say it's a new world recored would be, i'm sure difficult.

That's why I asked the question. . . I dont see a 220 inch sheep out there making it obvious, so even the best sheep guys would have to say, "that sheep is as close to world record class as any I have seen, i'm not saying it is a world record, but i would shoot it and if it makes it great, if it does not, O well, you have yourself a real cranker ram!!!!"

PopeShawnPaul · Mar 12, 2008

LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-08 AT 06:21PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-08 AT 05:53?PM (MST)

One of the resources I use is Duncan Gilchrist's book Quest For Giant Bighorns. In that book he has pictures of almost every large ram taken up to that point. He has pictures of 200" Alberta style rams in that book like the Cadomin rams. We know the scores on some of those rams and the symetry is similar. You can then judge the ram from a known score. Is his bases bigger. Does he drop below the jaw. How long is the curl. etc. The book brings it down to a science. Duncan was a master at this.

I looked through the book and have found a very similar ram... It's on page 215 and is Earl Cole's ram from Montana. It has the typical Alberta style and has the ideantical length on the ram's right side. On the left side the ram in the post is an inch or so longer. They drop identically below the jaw. Both have tight curls and a baseball size hole in the curl. That ram scores 196"... I'm thinking the big ram can't score much above the Cole ram. I'm going to say 198" based on my comparison. There is a picture in the book at almost the identical angle as in this thread.

roger · Mar 12, 2008

I don't think any experienced sheep guide or hunter would be willing guarantee the score of a ram. Scoring live animals is an inexact science, but does require a lot of skill and experience. But for the most part the more experienced hunters are capable of guessing within a couple inches. There are a lot of different factors that can throw off even the most experienced sheep hunter. I know of two very experienced sheep guides that missed the score on a big ram by almost 10". The reason was that most top end rams from the area historically had 16" bases, but the ram that was misjudged had almost 18" bases. Wouldn't that be a nice problem to have to deal with?

roger · Mar 12, 2008

I will try to make my point by a few picture illustrations. No doubt this is a huge ram that will make your heart skip a beat

roger · Mar 12, 2008

Here is a front view of the same ram. Still looks like a great ram but not quite as big as the previous picture. Still probably a ram that will exceed 180"

roger · Mar 12, 2008

Same ram (front) but with another ram for comparison. Now you can see how deceiving his bases really are. The back ram probably has bases that will be close to 15.5". Now you can see that the front ram is much smaller than he looked in the first two pictures. The ram had a very small body and probably weighed 20 - 25% less than the much younger ram. The small body and head made it difficult to accurately judge the bases. The ram was later killed by a hunter and scored 173 and was 10 years old. Still a great ram but I bet most sheep hunters would have guessed much larger.

BTW - The back ram was only 5 years old and should be a cranker in 3 or 4 more years.

bighornbob · Mar 13, 2008

I personally dont think any real sheep person would bet money that was a 208 ram as opposed to a 206 ram.

If you are off by so much as a 1/4 inch on its bases, you are off your mark by a 2 inches as there 8 circumfrance measurements. I have seen heavy broomed off rams that dwarf others with a tennis ball opening becuase of all the mass and guys shoot it thinking they got a book ram. Well the tape comes out and instead of 16 inch bases its only 14 and change. Whoops on the score but still an awesome ram.

A friend of mine who knows all the guys that buy all the big tags told me a story about the alberta permit one year. The hunter bought the tag and with a ton of guides they narrowed their search down to one ram that they figured was a new world record (the old record). The ram had a ear tag so they knew exactly which one to look for as they did a lot of scouting.

Well one day during the hunt they are fueling up and a local guy comes up as he heard they are the auction permit guys. He tells them he is the local resident who one the other tag and he shot a big sheep the day before. The guides and auction hunter say that is nice but they are looking for a specific ram, a monster that may challenge for the world record, they say he has a ear tag with the number 98 on it (cant remember the exact number). The local guy say "you mean this one" as he pulls the ear tag from his shirt pocket. The guides almost shat themselves that the local guy shot the sheep. It was a awesome ram but it only (and I say that loosely) scored around 202. An awesome ram but way off being in contention for the world record. Even the experts make mistakes.

BHB