Cow/Calf Ratio Down Again at Jackson Refuge

Good...get that elk population in line with the available winter range.

Bloated, unsustainable, and costly elk herd from the get-go.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-12 AT 09:24AM (MST)[p]Buzz I think your showing your true colors... You forgot to mention you think we should stop feeding them too. Then you and the rest of the enviro's can have your predator playground. How many elk do you think we will have left???

Your so proud of the northern Yellowstone elk herd what is it at? 4000?? a drop from 28000 in ten years! Congratulations! Your winning the battle!

I wish I could be there when you "F"ers explain this wreck to the next generation!

Buzz your educated beyond your intelligence.
 
If there are that many maybe transport some to help other herds in rough shape but dont be happy that the numbers are down. That is freaking ridiculous. Use the surplus to sustain other herds and keep them healthy.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-12 AT 12:42PM (MST)[p]Wolfhunter...

YOU ARE (You're) running pretty loose with the numbers in regard to the Yellowstone Herd.

I've never seen any data to support that there were ever 28,000 elk in that herd. Nothing like drumming up a bunch of pure B.S. to support your wrong-headed agenda.

The 2011 count was more like 4,635, but early snows had elk pushed into much different areas, and Doug Smith, the FWP biologist, even stated the same thing. Its also fair to note that the elk were hit pretty hard by hunters in 2011. The early, and heavy snowfall, created a situation that allowed hunters to take advantage of those elk...and they did.

Further the 4 years before that, populations were between 6100-7100 with the elk numbers in 2009 trending upward. Its also fair to note that elk populations in that range are within objective numbers outlined in Montanas Elk Management Plan.

As to the situation with the Jackson herd, its a classic example of what not to do and poor management practices from the start. When you have to spend massive amounts of money to prop up an elk herd and the associated industry that rely on those elk, you've failed. Management decisions should be made on available habitat and elk populations should be maintained to reflect same. That Jackson herd is no less artifical than those of exotics/whitetails found in places like Texas that also rely on massive feeding programs.

Its a joke.

The question I have is if the WYG&F is so worried about the low cow/calf ratios...why have the black bear and lion quotas stayed the same for so many years? I'd bet a lot of money that black bears, grizzly bears, and lions are impacting calf recruitment much more than anything else. Of course, it goes without saying that the quality of the winter range is pi$$ poor as they have to feed those elk to limp them through the winter, which is also not conducive to high calf survival.

Another odd thing is the fact the WYG&F is still holding long antlerless only seasons via general elk tags as well as generous type-4 and type-6 cow tags in the Jackson area???

Strange, dont you think?

I'd think if cow-calf ratios were so low, and you're worried about elk numbers, you'd not allow much, if any, antlerless elk hunting.

Carry on with the witch hunt...its always good for a laugh.
 
Couldn't have said it any better myself BuzzH!!! Propping up that herd the way they do and then worrying and spending a fortune on Brucellosis control is a farce IMHO!
 
Sounds like you have spend to much time counting shrub's with the rest of the minds who are destroying our hunting heritage!

Spin the truth with another "study" or mis-information from another over educated biologist. Perfect!! YOU ARE (you're) a master of Deception Buzz!

Tell us what you really think about the Jackson herd... For that matter step up and tell us what we should do with all the Wyoming elk feed grounds. Tell us what your going to do once you have dismantled our heritage. What are you going to tell our children???
 
Wolfhunter, you are no different than the radicals on the other side of the argument. You use fear and sensationalism to defend an unsustainable practice and then make personal attacks on a guy like Buzz who has the guts to call into question the elk "management" practices that have taken place in Jackson for the past 100 years.
If you are truly concerned about the future of our "heritage", think for a moment about the term "sustainability" and how that fits into the equation.
 
Wolfhunter,

How is supplying the latest, and best data spinning the truth?

So, what you're saying is that biologists and the information they gather has no merit?

Brilliant.

If you really dive into the problems associated with wildlife management, you'll soon find the social/economic gerry-mandering of the various county commmissioners, business owners, outfitter, landowners, HUNTERS, politically appointed G&F commissions, etc. to be the biggest problem with applying proper management.

You can hire the best biologists in the world, but without good data (obtained via the studies you hate), and keeping politics out of it, proper management wont happen.

If you want my opinion on the Jackson feed grounds, all you have to do is ask. I understand that self-appointed people like you find it more appropriate to disregard all professional biologists and take shots anyone that has more than a GED.

My take is that its too late to reverse the travesty that is the feed ground program. A long time ago, Wyoming failed to understand and listen to biologists who knew the feedgrounds were a horrible idea.

We've created an elk welfare program that costs us a ton of money annually. The people and economics around this herd have created a no-win situation...we cant do the right thing now, the genie is out of the bottle.

But, you wont be finding me shedding any tears when I hear this herd is being reduced. Less elk mean less of my license dollars being spent on failed biology via the feeding program, and getting the elk population in line with the carrying capacity of the available habitat.

What you should tell your kids is to find the first clue about proper wildlife management, as the feed grounds are cleary not even close and a classic example of what not to do.
 
+1000 BuzzH! Yearly winter feeding to carry artificial numbers on habitat that can't sustain those numbers without it is an economic shame to say the least!
 
Feed grounds are the only possible way to have the elk numbers "WE" enjoy. So it is not perfect in your Environmentalist view I get that. But short of moving all the people OUT! for your Utopia!! Feed grounds are essential with 400 inches of annual snow fall... Did you miss that in your Shrub book???

How is your proper wildlife management working for the Lolo herd in Idaho??? How is it working in the Middle Fork of the Salmon River??? Hmmm?? Did you learn those practices in the shrub book too.

I love your counting methods by the way! How could anyone question it at all???????

Your good data can be a joke most of the time...

So Buzz it sounds like in your professional opinion the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd is right on track! With more of your good data we should see more examples like that herd around the west. GOOD JOB!!! Can not wait!!
 
Like I said, the gerry-mandering and politics of the feed grounds has created a very unnatural situation.

Like I also already stated, the Jackson elk welfare program, has also created a dual welfare program that the "we" you refer to seem to rely on.

Its also much too late at this point to stop the feeding program without having even bigger impacts on the available habitat. Some of the impacts would likley take a very long time to reverse...it ever...if we stop the feeding.

Its still a classic case study in mismanagement and how the well intentioned, but largely uniformed, people made a huge mistake in regard to the Jackson herd. Its just a solid fact and there are very few, if any, biologists that would defend what has gone on with that herd (feeding program).

If you want to talk about the Lolo elk herd, gladly, as I hunted a portion of that herd in the headwaters of Kelly Creek for many years. The main problem with that herd is a major habitat issue, primarily the fact that various habitat types are at a very late successional stage. Meaning heavily dominated by tree canopy and very little undergrowth/browse species, low quality forage, etc. that are common to late succession. Most all of it caused by, again, the well intentioned, but misinformed public, that natural occurring wildfire is bad. Fire suppression has impacted deer and elk far more than any predator ever will...and thats a fact. The Lolo herds responded in a huge way to early successional plant communities following the 1910 and 1919 fire seasons. Populations plataued in the 1950's and 1960's which is pretty predictable. Also predictable is the decline we've seen for at least the last 25 years in that herd as tree encroachment and late plant succession dominates the entire watershed.

Its also fair to note that study after study has found conclusively that black bears have had the largest impacts on calf recruitment in that herd.

Until landscape sized habitat changes happen, you can kill all the predators you want, limit all the hunting you want, and it wont do any good.

To put in simple terms...you cant make chicken salad out of chicken $hit.

While I dont hunt the Middle Fork of the Salmon, I do work that country and IMO, its doing much better than Lolo. Mainly because of the large burns, I see elk regularly when I work in there. I've seen strong elk populations in Loon Creek, Little Loon, Trapper Creek, Cold Meadows area, Marble Creek, Pungo Mtn. to name a few. Its a rare flight into that country that I dont see elk from the air.

I dont think the Northern Elk herd is anything to panic over. I didnt write Montanas Elk Management Plan, but according to that plan, elk in the GY are still within the population objectives. Its also fair to note that the Yellowstone herd has seen the most widely swinging populations of any herd in Montana...and I'd reckon probably of any in the lower-48. Elk numbers have been historically lower than they are now.

With wolves numbers declining in Yellowstone and wolves being managed via sport and government hunting, I'm confident elk numbers will increase.

The problem is though, Debby Barrett, a state legislator from Dillon MT, passed a bill several years ago requiring the MTFWP to hold elk numbers AT or BELOW the objective levels found in the EMP. Those objective numbers were not set on anything to do with biology...and the MTFWP has had no choice but to allow more and more elk to be killed to meet those objectives.

But, true to form, MT hunters still blame wolves, bears, lions, etc. while systematically denying that elk leaving major drainages in the back of pick-ups have no impact.

Its so ironic...its almost funny...almost.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-12 AT 04:28PM (MST)[p]Sorry you don't realize that BuzzH and others are correct when we speak on this particular subect! If you think differently on what we are speaking about, you need to go back and take Biology 101, LOL!!!
 
I dont know the stats on this exact subject, however if animals needs to be feed in the winter because the winter range will not suport the number of animals (which costs money), theres too many animals in that perticular herd. Im sure the money can be used better off somewhere else.

I'm sure if biologists can do there job with out any politics or pleasing certain group(s) of people interfering with they're work, the wildlife would be way better off.
 
Buzz I commend you at being a master of deception. It must be a big chapter in your shrub book.

You have all the data to support your proper management of healthy herds everywhere in the west. Crap the only thing I see that your missing is how do you keep the hunter, the wolf and other predators in your proper management model/agenda?? One of them must go! All the rest of your management is in place. All of you "EXPERTS" agree. You will need to do something with the rancher in your plan as well. They eat way to many shrubs. But as educated as you and your kind are, I'm sure you have a plan for them too. Want to share??? or is that above your pay grade??
 
I have to agree with the wolfhunter on this one.

BUZZH The lack of fires in Idaho is the reason for the decline in elk numbers. REALLY !!!!! you have got to be kidding

The Wolf is the reason for the decline.

The Moose population in northern Idaho is in really bad shape and its not because of lack of fires.

The low calf numbers on the refuge are from the bear. REALLY !!! the blood stained snow on the refuge is not from the bears ....ITS MULTIPLE PACKS OF WOLVES...This does not require a study.

THE MOOSE ARE IN DECLINE AROUND JACKSON AND THIS IS NOT LACK OF FIRES OR THE BLACK BEARS,,,, ITS THE WOLF !!!!

The Yellowstone herd is at an all time low , under 5,000... The normal for this herd is 16,000 to 24,000. We are still seeing low calf numbers in this herd that are going to result in further decline. The majority of the cows are approaching the 10 year old catagory and when they stop reproducing this herd is going to decline at even a higher rate. THE WOLF IS THE PROBLEM !!
 
TOPGUN...YOU ARE (you're) like Buzzes little lap dog! I like the way you say "WE" like you think your on his level or something. Now that is funny!

Make no mistake Buzz is way over your head. He is a master of his agenda, few are better. I will for sure give him that. But if you think for a minute Buzz is getting paid or cares to work for sportsman you are sadly mistaken...
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-12 AT 05:35PM (MST)[p]beech18---That's exactly correct in that any time you set up a feeding program to be done every year to keep numbers of any animal at an artificially high number like is being done at the Elk Refuge and other yearly feed sites, it's definitely politics and not biology that's running the show. Anybody, including Wolfhunter, that says anything different have self interests and greed behind their thinking and not the good of the animals.

wolfhunter---"WE" was not meant to mean just BuzzH and myself as there are others on this thread who are speaking as we are on the subject. If you had half the smarts on biology and conservation that BuzzH and some of the other members have, you wouldn't be talking out your azz on a subject like you are. How dare you say that any of us are speaking for anything but the benefit of the elk and other animals, as well as the ecosystems being talked about! That is the only thing that matters in this discussion and not how much you want to feed the elk so you can have more to hunt. You, Sir, as I mentioned earlier, better take a class in basic biology and conservation because when you subscribe to artificially keeping a population high just so you or others can hunt more animals is insane and that's not how it should work.
 
You would think the elk would be over populated in yellowstone with all the fires they have had in the last 15 years. Just the opposite has taken place. THE WOLF IS THE REASON FOR THE DECLINE.

THIS IS SIMPLE BIOLOGY 101

ANYONE WHO CAN'T SEE THIS, NEVER WILL.

NOW IS THE TIME TO REBUILD OUR BIG GAME HERDS NOT DESTROY THEM.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-12 AT 05:33PM (MST)[p]Muley204,

Do you want to retract any of your "data" before I size you for a 3XL asshat?
 
BuzzH---I think we need to send these two back to a high school biology class as they either didn't make it that far or were sleeping in class when I read what they keep coming up with, LOL!
 
AS FAR AS THE REFUGE HAVING TO MANY ELK DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE FEED PROGRAM , I AGREE BUT I AM NOT WILLING TO LET THE WOLVES TAKE OVER AND WIPE OUT THE HERD. ELK ARE WHATS FOR DINNER NOT WOLVES . THE ONLY PREDATOR I WANT HARVESTING THOSE ELK IS MAN .ALOT OF FOLKS RELY ON THE BIG GAME TO FEED THERE FAMILY. WE NEED TO MAINTAIN OR GROW OUR BIG GAME HERDS NOT REDUCE THEM.
I AM OK WITH THE BEARS, LIONS , COYOTES, WOLVES AND EAGLES FEEDING ON THEMSELVES AND RATS AND ROADKILL OR RELOCATE THEM TO CALIFORNIA. HELL THE STATE ANIMAL FOR CALIFORNIA IS THE GRIZZLY BEAR. LETS GIVE THEM SOME WOLVES AND SOME BEARS AND WE WILL KEEP OUR UNGULATES :)

MY 2 CENTS
 
4XL ASSHAT , :) THATS FUNNY, I AM NOT GOING TO RETRACT. CAN'T WE DISAGREE ? YOU MADE YOUR POINTS AND I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU ON ALL OF THEM. THE MAJOR ONE BEING THE ELK DECLINE IN IDAHO IS NOT DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE WOLF. YOU ARE WRONG ON THAT,...AND THE OTHER BEING YELLOWSTONE AND I DON'T WANT TO SEE THE ELK IN JACKSON WIPED OUT. OTHER THAN THAT WHERE GOOD. I ENJOY YOUR OPINION AND YOUR MIND . BUT I AM GOING TO CALL B.S. WHEN I DISAGREE. :)
 
Guess not...so I'll just post up the data straight from the MTFWP Elk management plan found here:

http://fwpiis.mt.gov/content/getItem.aspx?id=31438

For starters, elk populations in Yellowstone are not at as you say, "at historic lows"...matter of fact the years between 1964-1974 elk numbers were less than 8,000 with a low of 3200 reported in 1968, and never above 19,000 from the Montana Elk Management Plan page 273:

"Since 1968, the Northern Yellowstone elk population has fluctuated widely between 3,200 and 19,000 elk, often with annual changes of 10-20% and some annual changes of up to 40%, as a result of major winterkill events. Population fluctuations in the northern Yellowstone elk herd are more dynamic than other elk populations in southwest MT."

Further, you may want to ask the MTFWP about their objectives for the GY elk herd considering their OBJECTIVE number is 4,000 elk, from page 63.
 
I have been tying steelhead rigs most the afternoon and trying to spin buzz up abit. I think I have got most the rigs tied and I am getting an asshat from Buzzz. Mission accomplished !!! You guys are great and I do appreciate all of you. :)
 
Great---yet another bigmouth with 35 posts going off....'Agenda Guy'...


Geezzz--why hide and disable your Profile ???

With your 'wolfhunter' handle you sure as hell 'aint' from Wyoming.

Good for your buzz and TOPGUN....atleast ya got balls to let everyone know where ya stand and who ya are.

Go ahead an run your big-Agenda-mouth-----we all know your type...no doubt.

Robb
 
Huh, according to the IDG&F, the elk in the Lolo and Selway zones have been, "declining for decades"...sure its all the wolves:

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/wildlife/planLoloSelwayPredation.pdf

DEFINITION OF PROBLEM
Elk numbers are currently well below management objectives in the Lolo and Selway Zones. Since the early to mid 1990s, elk calf to cow ratios have continued to decline, and have been at levels too low to sustain elk populations. More recently, cow survival rates have also declined to problematic levels. A number of factors have been identified as contributors to this situation. Declining habitat conditions caused by a shift from early forest seral stages to much less productive mid to late seral stages have been a source of concern for decades. More recently, the spread of noxious weeds (especially spotted knapweed) has also contributed to the decline in elk habitat quality. A major winter event in 1996-97, with record snowfall more than 200% of normal, caused a severe winter die-off that resulted in a population decline. White et al. (2010) documented heavy predation on neonate elk calves by black bears as additive and the primary proximate mortality factor of neonate calves (age ?? 90 days). Additionally, predation by mountain lions was prevalent on all age classes of elk (Zager et al. 2007a, Zager et al. 2007b, White et al. 2010). Currently wolves, which were not present during the early portion of this elk decline, are a major mortality factor on older calves (??6-month old) and cow elk (Zager et al. 2007b, Pauley et al. 2009). Lower cow and calf survival due to wolves is continuing to suppress the elk population (Pauley et al. 2009, Pauley and Zager 2011).

Heres some more:

Clearwater Region that had contributed to increasing elk populations in the past were a result of extensive fires that covered the majority of these units early in the century. Conditions favorable to elk likely peaked 10 - 40 years following the fires of 1937, and slowly declined after that. Brush fields slowly grew up and noxious weeds such as spotted knapweed started to become established on winter ranges in these two zones, reducing the quality of the habitat for elk. Not only did food become more limiting for elk during winter, but the extensively overgrown brush fields in calving areas may have allowed predators to be more effective.
These areas traditionally had high levels of habitat disturbance. Intense wildfires were prevalent in the early 1900s over much of the landscape. Also, in the early 1900s, blister rust decimated western white pine (Pinus monticola) stands, one of the dominant species. Subsequent fire suppression eliminated much of the natural disturbance once part of the system. This created a landscape that is dominated by mid-succession forest lacking early seral stages. Historically 35% to 45% of the landscape was early seral stage, compared with 14% currently (USDA Forest Service 1999). Similar trends likely occurred in the Selway. Much of recent disturbance in the Lolo Zone has come in the form of logging (which peaked in the 1970??s and 1980??s and has since declined to low levels) rather than wildfire.

Yep, its all wolves....
 
I posted this thread because the news release showed a significant decline in the cow/calf ratio this year on the National Elk Refuge in Jackson. I posted a similiar news release last year when the cow/calf ratio had dropped from 26/100 to I believe 22/100.I thought the drop was newsworthy. In a reply to that post last year, BuzzH expressed his displeasure at the fact that the elk are fed in the winter. That is a legitimate complaint. Many folks don't agree with a feeding program and many do. Where I live, there is no feeding program and decent winter range is available.

In replies to this thread, the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd somehow became a topic of the conversation. I believe that in 1995 the Northern Yellowstone elk herd was estimated to be between 18,000 and 21,000. I think the count last year was close to 4,000. I believe that the gray wolf was first put into that area in 1995. BuzzH always contends that he was heavily involved in the wolf issue since 1986, but I personally give little credence to his comments about wolves and wolf management. Of course, BuzzH contends that he was involved in every wildlife issue in every wildlife area in just about every western state since the beginning of time. Some believe what he has to say and others don't.

I can only speak to the portion of the Northern Yellowstone elk herd that lives or migrates into Wyoming that is close to my home. Elk Areas 50,51,52,53,55 and 56 had general bull elk seasons prior to 2010. 50,51,52,53 went to limited quota in 2010. The total tags were 125 broken down into an allotment for 50, 51 and 52/53. The harvest was low in 2010. I believe the quota was the same for 2011. The harvest results have yet to be posted for 2011. With such a low quota, I would doubt that the elk harvest in NW Wyoming was very significant in 2011. The snowfall would not have been sufficient to push many migrating elk into those areas.I hunted deer during the general season in 105 and 106 and saw very few elk. The seasons overlap.In 2011, the late season bull tags in 55 and 56 were eliminated. Late season cow tags have also been cut back considerably in most of the NW Wyoming backcountry areas since 2009. I do believe that the Wyoming Game and Fish saw the elk numbers dwindling as early as 1997-1998 in many backcountry areas. They likely should have cut back the late season cow and calf harvest sooner than they did but the wheels turn slowly and the revenue is needed. When 50-53 went limited quota, this greatly increased the general season elk hunting pressure in 55 and 56 for the October season in 2010 and 2011.I note that I saw few calfs, spikes and young cows in the above areas during 2010 and 2011. The outfitters who hunted Areas 50-56 have complained about a serious drop in elk numbers. The outfitters in the Sunlight, Crandall area have virtually stopped hunting elk. The outfitters on the North Fork of the Shoshone were finding it difficult to find any elk to harvest. You can probally confirm all this with the KBarZ, Meade Dominick, John Porter, Lee Livingston,Griz Turner or any other outfitters in the area. Some folks don't care about the outfitters or the success they do or don't have. I don't have much use for outfitters and guides but I do listen to what they have to say about animal numbers. I spend lots of time on foot in the NW Wyoming backcountry and elk populations are just way down in those areas. However, the populations do seem to be up in 65 and 54 and in some areas around Meeteetse and Thermop. For the most part, these are agricultural areas, desert areas and may involve private ranches. I don't believe that any game warden or biologist in NW Wyoming would tell you that the herds are doing well or at objective in all areas. Trophy bull elk hunting in many areas has fallen off dramatically.That is what many hunters complain about.

There is no dispute that elk populations overall in the State of Wyoming are at or above objective. The funny thing about statistics and numbers is they don't always tell the whole story. People who elk hunt in NW Wyoming, Dubois or around the Jackson area get upset when the elk herd declines or the trophy quality drops off. That is where they hunt and for most of them where they have traditionally hunted with their friends and family. I understand their frustration. BuzzH and Topgun seem to ignore that fact or have no concern for it. There respective ox may not be getting gored. BuzzH can still shoot elk on his home turf closer to Laramie or in other states. Topgun can do the same if he chooses to do so in the Bighorns.You can bet their songs would change if the cow/calf ratio and populations started to drop in their favorite Wyoming spots.

Only time will tell if the downward trend in the elk populations will continue in western Wyoming. For me,I usually have the opportunity to take a cow or a bull elk in my favorite haunts.I am retired and have the time. It isn't nearly as easy as it was to find a quality bull. Last year, I had the opportunity to take some 2-3 year old bulls on a general season tag. I choose not to and hope they will grow up to be something special in years to come. However, they could just end up being another kill for a wolf or grizzly. I was more focused on moose in Unit 10(south of Jackson) and didn't need the meat. I didn't get a reduced price cow calf tag in 2011 but if I had, chances are I would have had some opportunity. Many of those cow hunts are not much of a challenge and some are. I did help my hunting partner and his wife backpack out some cow elk this year. While hunting moose in Unit 10, I could have taken numerous small bull and cow elk while in pursuit of moose.I chose to focus on the moose. That almost didn't work out

I am amazed at how many people post in these threads about taking as many as 2-4 bull elk,buck deer and antelope every season in various states.They couldn't possibly eat all those animals in a year.I respect the hunter that is selective and only takes what he eats or is only willing to harvest an animal that meets the standard that has been set by them.

I am sure my post will arouse the usual rancor and name calling that pervades all of the forums on these websites.Just sayin...
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-12 AT 07:23PM (MST)[p]mightyhunter---Why did you bury your last post #30 way up in the thread? I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth like you just did or being lumped in with others when I haven't said anything to warrant what you posted! I will say that any time you have to feed a particular animal population year after year like they do in all those feed grounds that it's politics trying to satisfy people so thay can either shoot more animals or see more animals. No biologist worth his salt would ever feed a population unless forced to in order to keep his job or possibly in a onetime situation because of a severe winter event like they do in Colorado once in a great while. Any other feeding is sheer politics and not sound biology. I know the wolves are decimating the game populations in some areas, especially moose and also elk in parts of the state. I don't like it and I hope that a lot of them can be taken out of the picture in the next few years so that there is a natural balance of all animals in the available habitat. That, Sir, is sound biology!

I also take a much different view than you do when you make these statements: "I am amazed at how many people post in these threads about taking as many as 2-4 bull elk,buck deer and antelope every season in various states. They couldn't possibly eat all those animals in a year. I respect the hunter that is selective and only takes what he eats or is only willing to harvest an animal that meets the standard that has been set by them." I, myself, can eat a deer and an antelope every year and I won't shoot anything unless I'm going to use it myself or have someone who has spoken for it before it's shot. I would suspect that any family with two or three kids could certainly eat what it sounds like you consider to be greed on their part. I also could care less what others shoot as long as the meat isn't wasted and that's whether they, their family, or the needy eat it as long as it was legally taken. IMHO, just because someone shoots more animals than you care to take should not receive any type of negative criticism if it's done legally and the meat doesn't go to waste!
 
PLEASEDEAR,,,Robb,

You are wrong about much! I am real REAL surprised you are buying into buzzes swagger! Topgun is just a frustrated old man that has nothing else to do ALL day EVERY day!

My agenda is simple; healthy herds of western wildlife and a hunting/sportsman heritage I can pass to my children. SIMPLE! Maybe the truth from the biologists and wildlife management elite!

My post number is an indication that I do more than post on forums for entertainment, not representative on how informed I am on the subject. For example "you" whom have so many posts "THAT NUMBER"is surely not representative of your intelligence or awareness!

I am quickly coming to the conclusion that a bunch of sportsman are lost! And if Buzz is our ray of hope....God Help Us!

I am from Wyoming and "F"'n proud of it!

MULEY204 you give me hope!
 
BUZZ, Just because the F&G wrote it does not mean they are right .
BUZZ, you have to admit that it is strange that right around the time they introduced the wolves in yellowstone and across the state of Idaho we started seeing a sharp decline in Ungulates. Also if the amount of wolves planted was a larger number than reported that would explain the accelerated decline that was experienced across much of the northern rockies. I believe this decline is more predator driven than anything else. :)

Buzz the best study you can do is in yellowstone with all the fires and new growth from those events. This study has been going on for 15 plus years and the Elk have declined to dangerously low levels. Why is this happening.

Yep, its all wolves....
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-12 AT 08:09PM (MST)[p]Mightyhunter said, "BuzzH always contends that he was heavily involved in the wolf issue since 1986, but I personally give little credence to his comments about wolves and wolf management. Of course, BuzzH contends that he was involved in every wildlife issue in every wildlife area in just about every western state since the beginning of time."

Yes, I was active since 1986 in the wolf issue, as a resident of Montana, the state I was born in. Since wolves were a huge topic starting in about 1984-85 many people from my home town of Missoula Montana, were pretty involved. In particular since a pack was identified in the Nine-Mile Valley in 1984-85, where I worked as a seasonal employee with the USFS from 1988-1990. Wolves were a hot topic and many meetings were held at the Ranger Station regarding same. In other words, people in Western Montana were involved long before it became stylish. Further, I was privy to a lot more information than most, as a good friend (who's 2 sons I grew up with, one of whom was best man at my wedding) was an information officer for the USFWS. I also knew a lot of professional types that worked for the USFWS, USFS, and MTFWP, University of Montana, etc. the guys on the cutting edge of wolf, wildlife, and land management. I had a lot of interest in wolves, and all fur-bearing animals, as I was trapping very seriously by 1986-87. I wasnt trapping full-time, but beyond just recreational trapping for sure. I attended college by day and checked my trapline by night. So, yes, I'm confident saying I was involved long before you even knew what a wolf was or where they were found.


mightyhunter said, "I am amazed at how many people post in these threads about taking as many as 2-4 bull elk,buck deer and antelope every season in various states.They couldn't possibly eat all those animals in a year.I respect the hunter that is selective and only takes what he eats or is only willing to harvest an animal that meets the standard that has been set by them."

Talk about a self-righteous SOB. Its really none of your business what animals anyone hunts, where they hunt, why they hunt, or how they hunt as long as its done ethically and legally.

But, just this one time to put you in your place as you seem to really enjoy bashing me on these boards I explain where every scrap of meat went that I shot this year...4 elk, 4 pronghorn, 1 buck mule deer, and 1 bull musk ox.

The first bull I shot I kept half for my own use and shared the other half with a friend who joined me on that hunt in Wyoming. He didnt get an elk in WY and never ended up getting one in Montana either. The men I grew up hunting with and in the camps we shared, we always shared our game with each other...never knew there was any other way to do things.

The 4 antelope I shot, I kept 2 for my personal use and gave 2 to my Father and Brother.

My Montana elk and deer I shot, I kept a quarter for my own use and gave the deer and 3/4 of the elk to a close friend of my Fathers who traveled to the breaks to help me with a tag I'll likely not draw again. Thats the least I could do as he sacrificed his own hunting time to help me out, plus he's getting a bit long-in-the-tooth and getting elk is a struggle.

The second elk (1.5 year old cow) I shot in Wyoming I kept a half for my own use and gave the other half to my friend Jerry. Jerry is 73 years old and could only make the last couple days of our elk camp as he was assisting his brother, who's health was failing. He didnt get an elk for the first time in over 30 years and he appreciated the meat.

My last elk was the bull I took in Arizona. I brought back part of it, but left a majority with 2 AZ friends who busted their a$$es helping me pack that bull out of a very nasty place. They both like elk very much and living in AZ, they dont get a tag most years.

The musk ox I killed last week, I brought back 70lbs out of about 180 pounds of boned meat. I wanted to bring it all back, as its about the best wild meat I've ever had. However, the Inupiaq people that live in the area wanted some as well. I gladly gave them the balance and felt it was just part of the hunt.

So, mightyhunter, in your rush to bash me for some reason only known to you...you can go pound sand in your own a$$.

I'll continue to hunt for my reasons, that are clearly none of your business. I pay my own way, hunt ethically on public land, and enjoy it.

Continue bashing away...it seems to be about all you're good at.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-12 AT 08:25PM (MST)[p]
Not frustrated at all and I'm having the best time of my life since I retired in 2002! From the posts you've brought to this thread, I can agree on one thing you mentioned and that's that you need to keep it real simple for yourself, LOL! If all you can do is make posts putting down people you don't agree with, go pizz up a rope! I guarantee that you aren't representative of most of the people that I've met in 20 years of hunting in Wyoming, but every state has to have one or two smartazzes that think they know everything and it looks like we've found one from reading your posts! One last thing and that's how many days did you spend in the field this past year? I was lucky enough to go on the road hunting for 11 solid weeks last Fall in four states, with a lot of that time spent in Wyoming, besides the time I spent here in MI last Spring and Fall. How about you dude? It's a little hard to do much legal hunting right now up here, so yea, I'm on this site quite a bit right now.
 
I have mixed feelings about the feeding programs. I see valid pros and cons either way.

Regardless of some of these variables, a long term decline in cow/calf ratios will be a problem and would best be addressed now. Whether we continue to sustain a naturally unsustainable population of animals or whether we decide to work toward a decline in that population to a level where it can be naturally sustained, we still want a healthy ratio that will sustain the population. I am not a biologist and I don't know what ratio is needed to sustain a population allowing for a healthy harvest by us and other predators, but if there is a trend toward decreased ratios, then in the end the herd will be in trouble.
 
mmwb---Biologists normally calculate that it takes a calf to cow ratio of 25-30 per 100 to have a sustainable, huntable population in any given area.
 
To say that wolves arent part of the problem is crazy. Any predator in that area knows where to go and get food. Any time you feed big game on a mass scale it brings in predators. To them it is like shooting fish in a barrel. If you could keep numbers up then trap and transport to other areas you could help other herds that may not be doing as well. Jackson Hole isnt the only place in the state that has a feeding program in place for the elk any way. I talked to an agent in 2010 that told me there are several places they feed the elk in the winter.
 
I dont think anyone has ever said that wolves arent part of the problem...but it gets old listening to people wail and cry about wolves and blame them, in every location, that elk populations are slumping.

If you look at the data in the two most common areas...the Lolo/Selway and Yellowstone areas you'll find that elk poplations were declining long before wolves were even a factor.

Its also ridiculous to beat the "lets kill all the wolves" drum...it wont happen. Its as dumb as saying lets kill every lion, black bear, grizzly bear, bobcat, and coyote. It isnt going to happen, and rightfully so.

Time to move on to viable solutions, which I feel are largely on the way. Habitat work and improvement is being implemented, prescribed and wildlfires are being allowed to burn, studies are being conducted, etc. etc. etc.

Predators are being controlled via legal seasons in MT and ID, bear seasons are being extended in many of the areas mentioned, lion quotas are being increased, the list goes on and on.

The trouble is, people like mightyhunter and wolfhunter want instant results...it doesnt work that way. It took many, many, many years to achieve the wildlife populations we have today. We've become too attached to wildlife populations being stable or increasing through damn fine management over the years. Then, when things decline, which, IMO, is part of the cycle...many cry like spoiled children and start blaming things that arent even the problem.

Plus, before you can fix the problem, you have to have proof of whats really broken. I dont rely on the Toby Bridges or mightyhunter types who pick wolves as the culprit for everything bad from declining elk populations to cancer. I've no problems with keeping all predators in check, but I'm also smart enough to realize that the issues with the elk herds across the West are one hell of alot more complex than just having wolves preying on them.

I'm inclined to believe what I see on the landscape on nearly a daily basis and from peer reviwed science and from the professional biologists that live it every day.

Not so much from the knee-jerk crowd.
 
I realized they arent the whole problem, just one af many. There are probably more factors than we really know. I know that hunting is a big industry and in hard times we all need to do what is best for the animals. The most important thing to animals is food and cover. And we as humans have done what we wanted for so long that we lost sight. More isnt always better, you cant make every one happy and trophy animals arent standing behind every tree. I get what you are saying and habitat is one of the biggest keys and we cant keep letting the herd grossly outgrow the carring capacity of the land.
 
wolfhunter--- that may be true but you Agenda guys always find the time to yip and yap your Agenda and then you are gone.

We would love to see some of your harvest wolf photo's.

Thanks

Robb
 
Buzz H,

Glad you think I am a self-righteous SOB. I think you are what many would call a "game hog". You annually post pictures all over this site and others showing all the raghorn bull elk and antelope you shoot in 3 or 4 states. I don't doubt your hunting prowess, I just doubt your motives. You crave the adulation and attention. In my book, that is not what hunting is about. If that makes me a self-righteous SOB, than so be it. Have you ever thought about being selective about what you take, or is it just blast away so you can show it off and bask in the glory?

By the way, how old were you when you supposedly were all over the wolf issue in 1986? You seem to dodge that issue when bragging about yourself and your background.

If I think you are wrong, I will continue to challenge you and your claimed knowledge of everything related to wildlife, wolves and hunting in every western state. You have the right to your opinions on the feeding of wild game and so do others who are in favor of it. It is a legitimate issue in SW Wyoming. You don't have to agree with others, just respect the fact that you disagree.

You always condemn others when they complain about limited opportunities or declining game populations. You usually post pictures of your current harvest and seem to imply that they just don't know what they are doing. You quote statistics, but your actual boots on the ground knowledge of many areas may be close to zip. I try to confine myself to posting on areas I am personally familiar with(caribou in N. Idaho, elk and deer in NW and SW Wyoming, grizzly bears and wolves in western Wyoming). In the past, I have hunted extensively in Montana and Idaho and have a lifetime hunting license in Idaho. Because of declining deer and elk populations in Idaho, I have not purchased a tag there for years. I guided hunters in Montana (Big Timber,Ryegate,Shawmut,Harlow)for a few years after I retired, but I found I didn't enjoy it so I quit doing it. Right now, I prefer to hunt in Wyoming where I live.

I started this link because I thought it was newsworthy. I posted a similiar link last year. For two straight years, the cow/calf ratio on the National Elk Refuge has shown a significant decline. I don't know if that is a long term trend or just a blip on the screen.I don't demonize people for being upset about what is going on in areas that they like to hunt. You went off on the subject with your usual bombastic opinions.

I admit that I enjoy it when people call you out on your agenda and your politics. Some people on this website and others are finally gaining a clue about who you are and what you are all about.

just sayin...
 
Topgun,

When I posted the link, I did so because I thought it was newsworthy. BuzzH chose to stir it up and throw in his two cents worth. He lives for the controversy his opinions bring. I had not intended on posting a reply after posting the initial link. It was not my intent to bury my post. I was interrupted by a neighbor at the door, before I completed the post.It blew up in the interim period of time.

I think you are a good man. The fact you have become a cheerleader for BuzzH is your choice. I just think you swallow alot of the venom he spews. Some of your posts in recent months have started to spew the same venom.

I think you posted an image of a muley buck that you took in the Bighorns this year. It sounds like you hunted hard for the buck and that you were happy with it. I am into hunting for the experience, exercise and nothing more. I have taken some trophy class mule deer and elk over the years. I have become selective about what I harvest. That is my choice. I took an average 4x4 muley this year after missing a dandy. I wanted the meat, loved the location and shot the buck. In the past, I have shared pictures with friends and when requested by others. I took an average moose this year but was glad to have it. He has been real tasty. I don't hunt so I have something to brag about. BuzzH thinks I am a self-righteous SOB. I think he is something else. Sometime I will send you my favorite grinning hunter photo. It doesn't involve a huge set of horns.

Elk populations have suffered dramatically in the areas I like to hunt that are close to home. BuzzH thinks that is no big deal because it doesn't affect him directly. There is a real chance the same thing may be happening around Jackson. A sudden cow/calf ratio decline from 26/100 to 16/100 over a couple of years may be a real cause of concern for those hunting around Jackson. It would be interesting to know what the cow/calf ratio is at the other feeding grounds in the area. The people who hunt those areas have the right to be concerned. I find it remarkable that some have no concern for the hunting of others.

All the best.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-12 AT 10:05AM (MST)[p]mightyhunter said:

Have you ever thought about being selective about what you take, or is it just blast away so you can show it off and bask in the glory?

I am selective...I saw 31 bull elk on my Wyoming hunt. My Montana hunt I saw 87 bulls in 10 days on public land, at least that many more on private. I passed 26 6x6 bulls and eventually killed a 5 point on the last day I could hunt. I selected an old, mature 3x3 mule deer as well after passing many higher scoring bucks in the same 10 day hunt that were much younger. Arizona...well, I'm not in the habit of passing mature 6 points.

Oh, and for the record, I cant control the fact that I drew an elk tag in Montana with less than 5% draw odds and the same year I also drew a very nice AZ elk tag. I dont have any control over the draws in Western States...I just apply and see what shakes out. The ox tag had incredibly long odds as well, and there I selected a high scoring B&C bull.

By the way, how old were you when you supposedly were all over the wolf issue in 1986? You seem to dodge that issue when bragging about yourself and your background.

I was 18 and had been following the issue closely for a few years prior to that. Like I said, a close personal friend kept me in the know on the wolf issue long before you even knew what a wolf was in the lower-48. Again, he was an information officer for the USFWS...he's forgotten more than you'll ever know about the wolf issue, and thats a fact. Through my friend, I had access to any wolf biologist involved in the reintroduction process, and I asked a lot of questions. By the time the EIS process was rolling, I was in a position to make informed comments on the Draft and Final EIS, which I did...and you, along with most of the johnie-come-latelys, didnt. I also attended many scoping meetings in Missoula, Helena, etc regarding same. I had a vested interest as a hunter, trapper, citizen of Montana, and the United States. I got involved BEFORE, rather than take your stance of whining and complaining AFTER the fact.


You always condemn others when they complain about limited opportunities or declining game populations.

Thats correct, because we're living in the good old days. Theres more opportunity than you can shake a stick at...look at the West and tell me anyone has a right to complain about limited opportunities or low game numbers. Its a fuggin' joke. A hunter can kill 2 buck deer a year in WY, ID, and some areas of MT. A hunter can kill 2 bull elk a year in ID, 2 elk a year in MT, CO, and WY. Anyone with a firing brain cell can likely draw good hunts in NM and AZ every 4-5 years...WORSE CASE. Pronghorn tags can be had in MT and WY every year...up to 2 bucks and 4 does in WY alone. Multiple doe tags and a buck tag in MT. Black bear, lions, and wolves are OTC in MT, ID, and WY...in fact, you can get a reduced price additional lion tag in WY.

Elk are over objective in most of Wyoming, Colorado, and even in the game poor country of Idaho.

Limited opportunity?...thats just pure B.S.

The guys whining about no game and limited opporunties now, would have had a heart-attack if they grew up hunting Western Montana in the late 70's and early 80's...you had ONE deer A-tag and ONE elk permit...thats it. No youth only seasons, no additional b-tags, etc. etc.

You quote statistics, but your actual boots on the ground knowledge of many areas may be close to zip. I try to confine myself to posting on areas I am personally familiar with(caribou in N. Idaho, elk and deer in NW and SW Wyoming, grizzly bears and wolves in western Wyoming).

Good idea, because with your limited knowledge of wildlife and habitat issues even thats probably beyond your knowledge base. I spend 200 days a year in the field either hunting or working. My work area covers 8 states and for the last 20+ years I've stomped around a fair bit of country in CO, WY, MT, ID, NM, AZ, UT, NV, and also the Western portions of N. and S. Dakota.

Just because you have no experience in other states and are confined to a desk...doesnt mean the rest of the world is. I've worked in Resource Management for 25 years, hunted for over 30, and also have a degree in Resource Management. Go sell your B.S. to the people that dont know better.

Because of declining deer and elk populations in Idaho, I have not purchased a tag there for years.

Yep, pretty typical, when the going gets tough, and funding is needed the most, guys like you fold up the tent, tuck tail, and wait for the serious hunters to pay the freight. Once the heavy lifting is done, I'm sure you'll be back to reap the rewards from the hard work of others. I could have guessed that about you from the start.


You went off on the subject with your usual bombastic opinions.

Wrong, go look at who first started on the wolves...the Selway, the Lolo...and Yellowstone. Wasnt me...although I did throw in the only real facts presented in this entire discussion, as usual.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-12 AT 11:59AM (MST)[p]mightyhunter said: "I think you are a good man. The fact you have become a cheerleader for BuzzH is your choice. I just think you swallow a lot of the venom he spews. Some of your posts in recent months have started to spew the same venom."

First off, you damn well know that I'm very opinionated and when I think someone is right or wrong on something I will damn sure say so. I think you're completely off base using the words spewing venom just because you don't agree with what someone posts, whether it's BuzzH or myself. BuzzH, due to his forestry career that takes him all over many western states, as well his schooling and attempting to keep up on everything going on concerning his passion, which is also mine, is not something I take lightly. The man generally has facts to base his opinions on whether people agree with them or not. IMHO, several of you are the one spewings BS with nothing to back yourself up! If I think he's right I'll say so. If not, I will also say so, just like the spats we've had on Wyoming choosing to fight the Feds on wolf delisting. Calling him out and accusing him of posting what you have called "bombastic opinions" is pure hogwash. I will tell you flat out that if there was a vote to eliminate artificial feeding of game at Jackson Hole or anywhere else just so people can maintain an outfitting/guiding business, shoot more animals, or give rides to tourists to see an unhealthy number of animals jammed into a small area would get my yes vote. That would be the case even if I lived and hunted there because it's not sound biology and anyone that says differently needs to rethink their philosophy because IMO they are basing it on greed. Read the wolfhunter retorts because that is exactly what he is espousing and it goes against Mother Nature and sound biological practices. In one of your PMs to me a couple weeks ago about BuzzH, I told you that I felt he was old enough to have done what he stated regarding the wolf issues. Then you came back with a long PM with what I felt is just like your spouting off now on this thread and I didn't even bother to reply back. I will respond now since you obviously want me to take sides and it sure as ##### isn't going to be with you after reading your crap on this thread. Calling BuzzH out for shooting those animals legally and using the meat properly was uncalled for because it's none of your fu**ing business what any of us choose to shoot or not shoot as long as we follow the game laws and the meat does not go to waste. I don't see BuzzH going out shooting and posting only the biggest animals he can, but rather being selective and using pretty damn good ethics in what he decides to take. In fact, it's also exactly the way I prefer to do things. Before I waste any more of my time on this, I am just going to close with one final statement and that's if there were a lot more of us that were as concerned and knowledgeable as BuzzH is on his, and my, passion we would be in a lot better shape to take care of the many things that need to be done to help our herds and habitat! If you don't like what we have to say, then TS!!!
 
No 2 opinion will match up completely. However, I agree with much what Buzz says. Habitat is very important holding a population of animals. Animals need food, water, and cover in balance to thrive for starters. Age class of forest is a big factor in heavily wooded area's. My view, wolves are a big issue too and need to be addressed and controlled. Enjoy the debate, keeps things interesting.....
 
Wolves are definitely an issue and nobody here has said anything different. Thank God they are finally being whittled down in two states with more to come and maybe we will eventually be able to get things balanced out. To say all should be gone like wolfhunter and others espouse is not realistic and will not happen.
 
MIGHTYHUNTER, I have HOPE that more people than a few can see through the agenda of guy's like Buzz. His spew is all to familar... You rattle Buzz to his core! God Bless You!

Topgun Let's talk about things we know... That Jackson herd, the herd Buzz & you are so proud of it's looming collapse, is in my back yard. I have ridden my horse and led my"personal" pack string from one end to the other of that beautiful ecosystem, hunting elk and summer pack trips. I have watched with my own eye's the decimation of one of the finest elk hunting destinations in the west. I have led my "personal" pack string out of the Teton Wilderness with "personal" bulls that range from 300 to 390! If I was into "D!CK MEASURING" like Buzz, I would post a few pictures. Like MIGHTY HUNTER that ego part is not why I hunt. When I first started going to the Teton wilderness I saw herds of 100 bulls or more. Then that dropped to 25, then to 12, then to 4 and finally I stopped going except in the summer. I watched over the years some fluctuations of numbers with fire and winter. But nothing like the power of the wolf. That is the fundamental tool being used to push the pure biological environmentalist view of the perfect wildlife model. That model does not appear to have room for us hunting...

TopGun &Buzz I don't think I am alone when I say we don't care if your shrub book say's you should not feed elk. We like taking our children on sleigh rides to see them. We like eating them. We also think that every problem that has come up with the feeding issue can be dealt with with common sense. Something missing in your shrub book! You both should be ashamed for what your suggesting.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-12 AT 02:17PM (MST)[p]Geez, I had hoped maybe you had slunk back into the bushes, but no such luck, LOL! Everything you want seems to be backed by greed just like I stated and your last post continues to back that up. Sure the wolves are taking a lot of animals because biology that you fail to base any opinion on shows there are way to many animals in that ecosytem. Any time you have to feed a herd every winter means there are too many for the available habitat and that is bology 101 that you in your greed will not listen to. Maybe the low calf to cow ratio is due to Brucellosis that causes cows to abort their calves in such an overpopulated area. Maybe it's the wolves stressing the herd and just maybe it's the overcrowding in habitat that can't support the number of animals you and your greedy ways want to see and perpetuate through improper tinkering with that herd through artificial feeding. More than likely it's a combination of all of them, as well as bears, lions, and cow tags. However, it's people like you that have created the problem right in your own backyard by pressing the feeding of a herd that is way too big for the ecosystem! I'll not be ashamed of any science based knowledge over what you want to see just to make you happy on your sleigh rides! As far as BuzzH is concerned, I don't believe I've seen any huge animals he's posted just to brag about them. More so, it's just nice animals that he's taken on DIY hunts on public land that any of us could do on general area hunts where the animals are doing well without articifial feeding programs! I'm sorry if the animal numbers are going down in your area and that you have to go down main street to see huge numbers of animals inside a high fence, but don't blame us for that when it's not our fault for an overpopulation that should never have been allowed to occur in the first place!
 
Little scared to enter the fray here, but I have what I hope is not an inflammatory question regarding the elk feedgrounds. Can anyone tell me what the reasons were for establishing the various feedgrounds originally? I assumed it was to mitigate for winter range habitat loss, much like creating a fish hatchery on dammed up rivers to mitigate for the lost habitat behind the dam. Just curious what factors went into the decision at that time. Thanks.

Banger
 
THE QUEST FOR ELK FORAGE

Posted on November 16, 2011 | Leave a comment



Courts remind managers of looming disease threat on National Elk Refuge.





By Angus M. Thuermer Jr., Jackson Hole, Wyo.

November 16, 2011

In August, a nearly decade-long analysis of wildlife management on the National Elk Refuge finally concluded.

In a sweeping environmental study, officials decided they would reduce the elk population wintering on the refuge from roughly 7,000 to 5,000. The move is designed to bring the herd more in balance with the available habitat and let the animals spread out ? helpful in stemming the spread of diseases.

Of the many maladies transmitted among crowded elk, chronic wasting disease looms as an existential threat to the 12,000-strong Jackson Elk Herd and the economy that's grown around it. Always fatal, the disease has no known cure and is marching west across Wyoming, infecting a moose near elk winter feedgrounds in Star Valley.

?There?s no way we can prevent it from coming to the refuge,? Steve Kallin, manager of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service refuge, said last week. His statement underscores a challenge: How does his agency provide enough elk to satisfy a public that's grown to expect thousands of the ungulates, while spreading out animals as much as possible to prevent contagion?

Even under its new plan, endorsed by a court this summer, the refuge will be an overstocked winter range that makes elk susceptible to the spread of disease, critics say. Former National Elk Refuge biologist Bruce Smith, author of the new book ?Where Elk Roam? and a subsequent op-ed on disease and ungulates, says refuge elk can best be protected by wintering only 2,700 of the animals on the preserve just north of Jackson. That way, they can spread out and forage on their own.

Kallin, however, is bound by the management plan and the court ruling, and is hemmed in by social and political considerations just as the elk herd is hemmed in by encroaching human development.

?We?re moving as quickly as we can to try and reduce the potential for elevated transmission of that disease,? Kallin said.

Despite fears chronic wasting disease could decimate the refuge herd, the reserve?s current biologist can't confirm that scenario. He has tried to estimate its spread using biological models, without success.

?The results were so variable so as to not yield any useful information,? National Elk Refuge biologist Eric Cole said. ?Anyone who is making certain predictions on what will happen here is being disingenuous.?

Kallin agrees. ?There are no conclusive answers as to what CWD will do when it arrives,? he said.

Kallin is moving quickly in the best interest of elk. He understands his management plan was affirmed in court, where judges tickled his ribs with their legal spurs.

Reducing herd size

?[T]he whole point of a National Elk Refuge is to provide a sanctuary in which populations of healthy, reproducing elk can be sustained,? the appeals court wrote.

?The refuge can hardly provide such a sanctuary if, every winter, elk and bison are drawn by the siren song of human-provided food to what becomes, through the act of gathering, a miasmic zone of life-threatening diseases. There is no doubt that unmitigated continuation of supplemental feeding would undermine the conservation purpose of the National Wildlife Refuge System,? the court wrote.

The word ?unmitigated? put refuge managers on notice. They must do what they can to reduce the concentration of elk to help stop the spread of disease.

?We?re trying to reduce herd sizes,? Kallin said and ticked off measures being taken to insulate refuge elk from maladies. Refuge workers have increased forage by installing a $5.1 million irrigation system, helping to reduce supplemental feeding.

Each day in winter, feeders try to move to ?clean snow? to reduce the chance of spreading disease. When alfalfa pellets are dispensed, they are spread out in long, serpentine lines.

?We drive as fast as we possibly can,? Deputy Refuge Manager Paul Santavy said of efforts to string out the feed and the herd.

Elk spend less time on the refuge today, harassed off the winter range by hunters in the fall. If they linger too long in the spring, they're given the boot.

Meantime, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, in conjunction with the Wyoming Game and Fish Department and Grand Teton National Park, all partners in the refuge plan, is keeping a keen eye out for CWD. Testing of hunter-killed animals is widespread around Jackson Hole.

?Essentially every animal that dies on the refuge that we can get to before it's scavenged is put through an intensive necropsy,? Kallin said.

Animals killed in the Grand Teton elk reduction program also are tested. Wildlife managers are 99 percent confident they will detect CWD before it infects more than 1 percent of the animals.

While the refuge plan calls for 5,000 elk, the Jackson Elk Herd numbered 12,000 at last winter?s count. The annual census counted 7,746 on refuge feed.

Wyoming Game and Fish has an objective of 11,000 animals for the Jackson Elk Herd that winters on the refuge, in the Buffalo Valley and up the Gros Ventre River drainage. Wyoming Game and Fish operates three feedgrounds along the Gros Ventre.

That means under the plan, 6,000 animals would be wintering in the Gros Ventre if the state objective is met. In both locations, elk would be concentrated around artificial feeding.

?The tough medicine from Smith?s book is if we as a community don't phase out feeding soon, the repercussions could be catastrophic,? said Lloyd Dorsey, the Wyoming representative for the Greater Yellowstone Coalition.

?The science is clear,? he said. ?The best opportunities to re-establish free-ranging healthy elk are in Jackson Hole and the Gros Ventre.?

Smith writes the best protection for elk would be to see no more than 2,500 on the refuge. Up to 9,000 elk have wintered naturally in the Gros Ventre drainage in the past, he says. Bridger-Teton National Forest Jackson District Ranger Dale Deiter recognizes why that area is valauble.

?One of the things that makes the Gros Ventre special is it's in the rain shadows of the Tetons,? he said.

Retired Wyoming Game and Fish habitat biologist Steve Kilpatrick believes 9,000 might be too many elk for the Gros Ventre in a snowy winter.

?I think 9,000 is high, said Kilpatrick, now working at the Conservation Research Center of Teton Science Schools.

More elk in the Gros Ventre

?In heavy snow years the area could hold only about 4,000 without feeding,? Kilpatrick said.

?The public would have to stomach a non-average winter,? he said. But a smaller herd ? ?that's not consistent with the public?s expectation [for] the number of elk on the landscape.?

Kilpatrick has been among a coalition of habitat managers working since 2003 through the Jackson Interagency Habitat Initiative to improve winter habitat in the Gros Ventre drainage.

Managers have set fires to rejuvenate approximately 15,000 acres of the landscape there. Natural fires have covered another 21,000 acres, and cattle grazing allotments have been changed to reserve even more winter range for wildlife.

?What I personally observed is wildlife has used those areas extensively,? ranger Deiter said.

?The burned areas will green up faster. The new vegetation is more palatable,? he said.

The forest wasn?t as thick before humans began to put out fires, Deiter said. Still, educating the public about the benefits of setting forest and range fires is a challenge.

?Nobody really sees too many trees as a disturbance,? he said, ?but it is if it's too dense.?

Agencies have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars improving habitat in the Gros Ventre drainage, a project initially launched for elk but now benefiting many species. While elk are still being fed at state feedgrounds, Kilpatick said the habitat work remains important. He sees the open hills as a safety net for elk, should chronic wasting disease infect feedgrounds.

Author Smith says managers are playing with fire, that worries by hunters and others who fear a world with fewer elk must be put aside to protect an invaluable resource.

?Better a smaller elk herd than an overstocked range riddled with disease,? he writes.

Smith?s replacement suggests science isn't as cut-and-dried as some believe.

?Science doesn't tell us the right thing to do,? biologist Cole said. ?It allows us to predict outcomes and make recommendations.?

In affirming the refuge plan this summer, judges found no reason to put refuge managers on a strict schedule for changes and were satisfied Wyoming Game and Fish does not hold veto power over the federal agency. Despite the clear language about diseases the appellate judges used in their ruling, they had to cough up another passage supporting supplemental feeding and some crowding of elk. In doing so, elegant prose gave way to governmentspeak and cliche.

The Department of the Interior, they said, in choosing to continue some feeding, also selected a long-term plan to spread elk out. It was ?an approach that is geared toward ending the practice over time while maintaining the flexibility needed to respond to facts on the ground,? the court wrote.

Kallin puts the issue in his own language. The refuge program now has an ?adaptive management? component that will allow him to make changes if CWD shows up. ?We can adjust,? he said.

?There will never be consensus on answers that will satisfy everyone,? Kallin said. ?That's why, I'm assuming, it took nine years to get through the [management plan] process.

?The biological information has to be viewed in the context of other considerations ? social considerations,? he said.?We tried to come up with the most reasonable approach to managing the herd.

?Willdlife management would be easy,? Kallin said, ?if it wasn?t for people.?
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-12 AT 02:51PM (MST)[p]Banger...google is your friend try National Elk Refuge, for a good start.

It was started a long time ago for a bunch of "reasons", some had a bit of merit, others not so much.

Bottom line, its a classic example of exactly what not to do in regard to wildlife management.

Its cost the public, and hunters, a small fortune to prop up that herd over the years. Tens of millions of dollars spent.

It will likely cost us many tens of millions of dollars more, in particular once CWD is found there, which is inevitable.
 
Topgun,

Your a BIGG'ER DUMB-A$$ than I thought you were before. You have no clue what your talking about when it comes to Teton wilderness and it's surrounding habitat or probably anything else for that matter. That place is a wildlife producing machine. The summer, late fall, and early winter habitat is some of the best in the western united states. The week link is human development that broke traditional migration routes. Maybe before you open your mouth without Buzz's permission you should drive to Jackson Hole and get out of the car or get off the 4wheeler for a tour...

If you want to call passing on the greatest hunting heritage in the west to my children and their children greed??? Your losing it Topgun!!!


What were you in charge of with your Biology degree???? Gay Salamanders......
 
So, what other forms of welfare to you intend to pass on to your children besides the bloated and unnatural Jackson elk herd?

Just curious.
 
I absolutely love it when a person like wolfhunter makes an azz of himself by coming back with nothing but bad language and personal attacks when they have no facts to back themselves up and have to spout childish BS to get a word in! I guess it's too much to ask him to read up on the subject, which is as simple as reading the post BuzzH just put up regarding the whole area he's talking about. Even if he reads it I'm pretty sure it will go right past him with the obvious welfare mentality he is espousing!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-12 AT 05:49PM (MST)[p]Buzz,

Speaking of Bloated wasteful programs.... How much of your Blogging adventures are on the government..Oh! I mean the taxpayers dollars???? Seems you do't miss many jabs!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-12 AT 06:12PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-12 AT 06:00?PM (MST)

Wolfhunter,

I understand the facts of this issue are too complicated for you...any other red herrings you want to bring up?

You bring no facts to the table, resort to insulting people smarter than you, and carry on like a spoiled child.

Its time for you to leave the discussion to the adults...

Oh, and TOPGUN has you pegged...re-read his last post.
 
About the only thing he's doing is building up his post count quickly by posting more BS! The posts just keep coming and not one friggin meaningful piece of information in any of them! He probably missed his sleigh ride to see all the elk yesterday and is pissed at the world, LOL!!!
 
Buzz,

This argument was never about bringing the most facts to the table about the jackson elk herd. It is about how you and your kind use those facts and numbers that you create to smokescreen the general public. Most of the upper level biologist or wildlife managers are then same. For example, Idaho's elite have been hiding behind study after study to explain the drop in ungulate populations, hiding their thrust for money in tag sales. All the while the herd plummets due to poor management, or for that matter no management at all. It does not take a PHD to recognize this trend. This is much deeper than going to google and copying some studies to proclaim your intelligence later...

My fight is with the hidden agenda you represent. And your using the wolf as your tool to accomplish your agenda. Buzz it's obvious you have bought into this hook line and sinker...

I just hope more sportsman are willing to open their eye's...

If you and your lap dog want to keep up the attacks bring it on. It's kind fun watching you two work!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 08:50AM (MST)[p]This is the lap dog speaking, LOL! FYI you obviously haven't been reading much on this site for any length of time or you would know that BuzzH and I have been pushing for wolf hunting as much or more than anyone on here! "OUR" agenda is nothing like you keep squaking about and the more you post and rant in the different Forums the dumber you look and most members will not take you seriously. Sit back, relax, and please realize that I'm probably more on your side than you could possibly realize and only want good healthy herds of animals all across the country. Now how can you argue with that?
 
Topgun,

Have you ever thought about changing your name on these forums to BuzzLite. If you want to to become a cheerleader and shovel your adulation on BuzzH, that is your prerogative. Maybe you can go hunting with BuzzH in 2012 and he will let you carry his rifle or pose in his photos.

I originally posted this thread because it was newsworthy. You and BuzzH went off on it with your tag team approach. Neither one of you is capable of criticizing an opinion without personal attacks. The feeding of game animals is a legitimate issue. Some agree and some disagree with the practice. In the Jackson area, there has been a lot of human encroachment on prime mule deer and elk winter range. That encroachment has extended dramatically to outlying areas. The winters in that area can also be extremely harsh. I believe that was the case last year. I don't blame someone for being unhappy with the situation where the elk population is dropping. Gee, maybe he enjoys hunting elk in an area he loves and is familiar with. Just like you claim that it is none of "my fu*****" business what someone takes with a lawful tag. I would argue, that as a guy from Michigan, it is none of "your fu*****" business what goes on in Wyoming with the feeding of elk. I have hunted deer, elk and moose around Jackson. The country is beautiful and the summerand fall range is incredible.

I am proud to be called a self-righteous SOB by the likes of BuzzH. I am selective when I go hunting. The older I get the more it becomes about the experience and less about the numbers. I don't believe that I should harvest everything that I have or could purchase a legal tag for. Unless I need the meat, I am not likely to shoot another raghorn bull elk. Around here, you can purchase reduced price cow/calf tags, extra doe deer and antelope tags. I prefer to exercise a little self control when I hunt. I especially like to do this now that elk populations have dropped dramatically in the mountain areas I like to hunt. I don't need to post pictures on hunting websites so that people can tell me how great I am.

just sayin...
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 09:49AM (MST)[p]Calm down a little bit man! Read your post and see who is making most of the personal attacks. I'm 64 and also get more fun out of helping people do their thing than pulling the trigger myself nowadays. It sounds like we're both at that stage in life that the critters are more important to our future generations than pulling the trigger. If you had read and really ingested what BuzzH has stated many times, he is more interested in conservation and maintaining the animals and habitat for future generations also. Did BuzzH or myself come down to your area and shoot the He** out of game where you feel there are problems? I shot one nice 4x4 buck after a number of weeks of scouting/hunting and one doe antelope for meat in an area where there are way too many. It sounds like BuzzH happened to draw some LQ tags in different states last Fall and filled those tags, as well a few meat tags in areas that could support it for his family and friends that helped on his hunts. Isn't that what hunting and the outdoor experience of sharing it with others is all about? Are you suggesting that when he draws a tag after all the money he spends supporting wildlife buying all those PPs, licenses, etc. throughout the western states that they shouldn't be used? I don't blame him at all for calling you what he did because you deserved it when you don't know squat about him, me, or anyone else on this site and what we believe in! Cripes, my last post was trying to calm you down a little and agree with you in principle somewhat and then you come right back blasting away again. If you can't be reasonable and present something logical when you post, most members on this site will probably see you as some fanatic that will do as much or more harm to our outdoor heritage that all the greenie weenies put together!!! Just please think a little, reread what I've just posted, and then slow down and think when you type if you don't want people to think you're anything but a nutcase!!! You also were not the one that started this thread. You came in and started busting balls and have continued to go on rants just like you did on that other Forum thread where other members posted that you were way out of line. Oh, and one last thing. As long as they are using our Federal taxpayer dollars to feed all those elk in that National Refuge, as well as some of my considerable license money that goes to the G&F every year and then to those feedgrounds, you can bet your butt that I DO have a sayso whether you like it or not!!!
 
BuzzH, I have a question to you around the fire issue of letting it burn. I do agree that fires are a necessary part of a forest. What I don't buy into is that it is the only way to manage a forest. I'm not educated like you and Topgun so I expect you to bash me till I don't respond any more. So here goes my question. What is wrong with logging the trees instead of letting them burn up in forest fires. All we hear about is to much CO. Well in my uneducated brain it tells me if we log and put the wood to use in structures it captures CO and takes more out of the circle. I believe a forest is renewable and should be managed that way. I also believe that Game animals are also renewable. DZ
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 11:30AM (MST)[p]You got me on that one wolf, LOL! I just saw hunter and didn't realize the "other hunter" had slunk back in to take a few more cheap shots! The old eyes ain't what they used to be, but they're good enough with my trigger finger to get er done when I need to. I guess there is really no need to to go back in that post though because you both seem to be BuzzH haters and it's too bad that people get chastized when they agree with him because we feel he knows what he's talking about. You each know what I was talking about and nothing needs to be retracted, so I'll just agree to disagree with both of you and move on to other stuff where reasonable discussion is allowed!
 
dz---Good question for Buzz and I think I know what he'll say, as well as do it in a respectful way since you have done so in your post! As for myself, I have never said I was educated in all the intricacies of forestry and management of the resources like BuzzH is, so please don't intimate that I have ever said so. He**, I only got through my Associate in Science Degree and then had to go into the Army for three years during the main time the war in VietNam was going on and I never did finish school. I just have the time and do a lot of reading on everything involved in maintaining the ecosystems, whether it's prescribed burns, natural fires, logging, reseeding, etc. as well as anything else involving my passion of hunting and the outdoors. Finally, I agree 100% on your statements of the forest and animals both being renewable resources and I'll bet Buzz will too or he probably wouldn't have chosen his field of endeavor to spend his whole life in. Have a good day!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 11:44AM (MST)[p]DZ,

I'm all in favor of proper forest management. If you look at any forest plan you'll find that logging, grazing, mining, etc. are all addressed and all legitimate uses of NF and BLM lands.

Prescribed fire, in conjunction with cutting, both clear cutting and selective harvest can work very well. Does it exactly mimic natural occurring wildfire? In some cases it comes pretty close, in others not so much.

Logging, if done correctly and if disturbance is mitigated properly, is A-OK with me.

But, what you have to understand is that on any National Forest they have a Management Plan. Within those plans there are basically a sub-set of Management Areas (MA's) that are delineated based on a bunch of criteria. Dont forget that under the NFMA, the agency is required, by law, to manage on a sustainable basis with equal consideration given to all uses and resources values. So, there are some MA's that logging is a preferred and viable use of the land, others are more for wildlife, still others maybe recreational value. In some MA's logging is not an option...period.

So, in the case of some of those areas, the only viable way to bump succession back to an early stage is through prescribed fire or a let-it-burn policy. No other way to do it without amending the Forest Plans, which is very unlikely to happen in most cases.

But, where its practical to log, and in MA's where logging is allowed, absolutely makes good sense to log it in some fashion. Depending on habitat type, species, etc. there is a whole host of logging practices that I'm in favor of...from commercial thinning, to selective harvest, to even clear-cutting. Pre-commercial thinning is also a nice tool to utilize in some stands.

What ends up happening with these discussions, is if you're not in favor of nuking every last tree via clearcutting, and building a road on every last acre of land, mining every last ounce of gold/drop of oil, or killing every last predator on the planet...you get accused of having "an agenda".

Taking a deliberate approach to wildlife and land management and working with-in the framework of the various regulations and laws imposed on same...will get you labeled a liberal tree-hugging wolf lover...every single time.

Check this thread for a classic example as in the case of Mightyhunter and wolfhunter...absolutely classic.
 
I have read this thread from beginning to end. I do agree with you and them on a lot of thoughts. Thanks for your response to my question. What I see as an outsider of the forestry industry is more regulation and less logging. Now don't take me wrong as not every tree should be a stump. But not every tree should be a 200 year old growth owl tree. I love to hike deep into the forest and do so many days each year. I recognize the volume of trees dying naturally and not being utilized. There does need to be a balance but it does not need to be 100% for the woodpeckers and bugs. I feel like God (if I can say that) give us these resources to use and manage. I feel like I could write a book about my thoughts on this and still not get it to come across right. As the northwest used to log at a rate that the forest was growing at, matching the resource. Having met with a Mill operator here in La Grande Oregon, he has told me that we are under cutting our forest. I don't remember the exact number of board feet but I do remember that we are cutting less than 25% of what our local forest are growing. Why would we do that? Sorry to hijack the post. Dz
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 02:36PM (MST)[p]In general I dont disagree with much of what you posted there.

I just think making statements that we're cutting less than 25% of what we're growing is a bold statement.

Could be in some areas, probably not in others.

Whats that statement based on? Are we counting all the tree growth in designated wilderness to come up with the ratio? Is that taking into account ALL timber lands? Only FS? FS and BLM? How about whats growing in MA's that harvest isnt an option? Are we including tree growth on trees that arent even of merchantable size?

Pretty easy to throw unquantified statistics around.

As to the large amounts of beetle kill and most of it not making it to mills. Theres a whole swarm of reasons for that. First, the timber industry did itself no favors, and the big mills did a great job of cutting the throats of the smaller mills. That was done primarily when fuel prices were low, the big mills would out-bid the smaller operations and truck timber long distances. The smaller guys couldnt compete for stumpage and had no choice but to close their doors. Capitalism 101.

Flash forward to about 5 years ago. A perfect storm of bad things all combined...high fuel prices, several mild winters with huge build of MPB, lots of stands of lodgepole pines right around 100-120 years old, and many of the local mills shut down. About the same time the trees starting dying, the economy and housing markets take a big dump. Demand for stumpage decreases...just as you have a huge increase in supply via beetle kill. Agencies, timber companies, and private owners cant sell to local mills that dont exist. The market in softwood declines sharply and trucking beetle kill to the mills that are left is unprofitable because of fuel prices. Housing starts also tank as the bubble bursts on that end.

Its a bad deal, and the timing for all of it couldnt have been worse if it were scripted.

Resource management is complex to say the least.
 
If in the future there is a surplus of animals in the jackson area, would it be cost effective to trap and transport to other areas. Would the fish and game be able to do this on a large scale if animals were trapped and held in a holding area until there was enough to move. They could possibly get some funding from groups like RMEF. Would this be doable?
 
My personal take is that they woud not allow it because of high costs and possibility of disease transmission. They have to do a tremendous amount of work just to curb the chance of Brucellosis alone in that area and I doubt they would take a chance of moving animals to other areas because of that alone.
 

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