Could someone explain to me...

[Pahunter106]

Hello,
I would really like to know if there are any available hunts where I would not be charged a fee for a trophy? ANd what is that about anyway? It seems to me that if you do all the hard work in getting to within range of a good trophy animal, which from my experience are supposed to be harder to get. I mean they did not get to really big size in the antler department by being stupid...
Anyway, you do all that hard work to get the animal within your sights, and make the shot and then the stalk and then pluck it out of the wild and debone it so that you can hump it the 2-10(?) miles out of the boonies, then the outfitter is going to stick you with a several thousand dollar bonus for him, because your rack scored over the theoretical average for the animals taken from that area, as if he raised that animal from a fawn, and his daughter/ or family is going to be really upset not seeing "Old Mossy Horned Harry" out on the range. I just don't get it, and unless I can find a hunt where I am not going to be stuck for trophy fees, I won't be hunting out west anytime soon.
Sorry, but as a newcomer to Western hunting, I just see a lot of injustice in this practice. It is bad enough out east here in PA where unless you pay $175- $390.00 for leased land you might not be able to hunt here much.
Maybe someone of you guys could set me straight on what the extra money means? I mean do they put it back into the land habitat? Or donate it to the RMEF? Or what goes?
Thanks,
Scott

 

[fatrooster]

I've never heard of paying a trophy fee but I'm a "Do it yourself" hunter. I only pay myself! fatrooster.

 

[Pahunter106]

I, too would like to think of myself as a do-it-yourselfer, however, since I am from the state of PA, I do not pretend to know the habitat of the Mule deer or Elk or even the best way to hunt them. This would include where the herd is bedded for the months that I were interested in hunting. So to be fair to myself and the money I were going to outlay for a hunt, I started to investigate outfitters that could make the whole thing happen for me, in the way of administratively booking the hunt.
Given, what I feel is a complex process to even secure a hunting license, I thought that going for one of the economy hunts, and taking 6 friends with me from PA, I could minimize the $$ outlay and concentrate on studying the animals habits and general characteristics, while hopefully scoring a successful harvest, as quickly as possible. I wanted to shorten the learning curve as much as possible, by hiring someone that would be able to put me onto an animal just because he/she has been around them all his/her life. I did not expect to see different prices for different size animals. Say an Elk scores 300 to 349 you pay $6500.00 and then if it scores 350 to 399 you pay $8300.00 and so on... Over 400 score then the price is negotiable. Big $$$$$, which to me is kind of crappy. Nobody guarantees an animal of a certain size, but everyone wants a cut of your's should you get one of the big boys, just because you were good and lucky, and the more lucky you are the more the outfitter wants a deeper part of your wallet.

 

[Outdoordan]

I am not sure whom you are talking about, however, MOST if not all legit outfitters on public land do not charge trophy charges. The prices you have shown sound like high fence hunts, which is unethical anyway so why would you want to do it? Shoot a fenced animal?
In the back of the bugle magazine (RMEF) there are hundreds of legit outfitters whom do not charge trophy fees. I think you need to do more research. You can also hunt in most western states without an outfitter. We are blessed with an abundance of public land, for instance in Idaho I believe the state is 75% public. In other states it is a significant percentage as well.

 

[Pahunter106]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-07 AT 05:26PM (MST)[p]Well that is the thing isn't it? Though there is a prepondernce of public land, I have never hunted any of it. No, I do not want to hunt a high fenced area, and was not sure that was the case, when I went looking for an outfitter.
I have not hunted any Mule deer or Elk, and though Pa has a herd of 8-900 not far from where I live the habitat is vastly different than out west. Elevation for one is about 4-5000feet lower. I was told that if one really wanted to get into shape for hunting out west, one should run up and down the hills here while simultaneously breathing through a straw!!
I would love to just come out for next season and hunt some of the public land, but like I said, "the whole drawing a tag thing" seems a little complex. You get points, if you don't make a successful draw and the whole thing. I just want to hunt.
If there is any good books out there for studying the habits of Mule deer or Elk I would like to know what they are, and be able to at least position myself for a decent attempt at a successful harvest. ANd I am not expecting to come out there and score big the first time. I would 'nt even mind if the first year was a healthy portion of tag soup; but really I would not know where to start.
This is why I joined this forum, so hopefully I can glean the right info from one of these posts and do a decent job of getting a shot at a decent sized deer. I am not rich, so if I were to book a hunt, I would want to come home with something.
Initially, and most recently, I became a bow hunter primarily, and a rifle hunter secondly. But if I were to book a hunt, I suppose I would or should use a gun, so that my odds of getting within range are better.
After reading the articel about Scent-Lok, I can save myself more money towards the hunt by not buying any more of it. I was going to buy a lot more of it.
Other than those spray on scent eliminators, and storing our clothing separately from everything else, does scent control become that critical out there?
Out here in PA, we sell about 389,000 bow hunting permits a year for far fewer deer than there were just 5 years ago. ( Thanks to the PA GAME COMMISSION !) If they sound mafia inspired, it is because they are!! We have tried taking them to court and are even suing them because they really do not know the count of the deer herd that they are tasked with managing. Every " {Wildlife Management Unit} " gets treated the same regardless of how many deer were taken the year before!!
I would not recommend coming here to hunt, as the deer are primarily nocturnal except during the Rut.
Thanks for setting me straight.
Scott

 

[fish4evr]

RIDGERUNNER OUTFITTERS

They can hook you up. They are located in north central Idaho, They offer Do it your self drop camps and charge NO trophy fees. All on public land. In Idaho the outfitters have allocated tags for there clients. They just finished there hunts for this year so they should be easy to get a hold of. If you have priced out other outfitters you should find there prices reasonable.

Give Mr. Andersen a call (801)633-3264
Tell him David referred you,then pick his brain with as many questions as you can think of.

There web site is: http://www.ridgerunneroutfittersllc.com

Good luck, I hope you find the hunt you are looking for.

Hunt hard Die happy,

 

[Outdoordan]

Scott, I am not trying to discourage you. I am trying to empower you. I bowhunt primarily myself, and have hunted almost all of the western states, and every state I have hunted I have gotten into game. You can be successful without a guide, and no matter what, you will be in some of the greatest country in the world. With that said, I can point at some places to start, if you want to PM me. Otherwise, use an outfitters drop camp, or go guided.

 

[fatrooster]

Scott,
you did the right thing coming to monster mulies for there is a wealth of information on this site. A couple of people above have pointed you into a couple of good directions which can get you started. I'd also like to suggest that you become a member of Carter's Hunt services. This service puts out a magazine (Huntin' Fool) that breaks down every Western State, every hunt species and helps you figure out the draws and over the counter tags. Or call them on the phone and they help you out with obtaining the kind of tag you want and they even have a service where they do all of the paper work for you. I grew up in Florida and used to come out West to hunt Wyoming and it is basically a learning experience for the first year or two. For that matter its a learning experience every time you go someplace new. I've lived in Nevada for almost 15 years and I'm just now getting to really figure this Western Hunting out. If you really want to know the truth there are many Westerners that don't have it figured out and are still in the dark. I believe that this hunting service is a great source of information for the Easterner wanting to hunt the West. I have never used thier service but I did join up just so I could get the magazine. They can answer all of your questions about any Western state. The cost is cheap compared to the info you will receive.
As far as books are concerned, for mule deer I like the "Public Land Mulies" by David Long and if you are an archery hunter then get the one by Cameron Hanes. I forgot the name of it but both books are put out by Eastmans. This website used to sell them but I don't know if they still do. Take a look at Monster Muleys online store.
I've never read a book on hunting elk but there are plenty of them out there.
I will also suggest getting getting some hunting videos for Western hunting. I have many and like most of them but I really like the Eastman video's because they give helpful hints and try to help people become better Western hunters. Yes they are a little corney but they aren't actors, just hunters like us. I hope I have helped you out. goodluck, fatrooster.

 

[BigPig]

Read "Hunting Open Country Mule Deer" by Dwight Schuh. It's awesome and you will learn a ton. If you really want to hunt out West, you are right, save your money. Buy good optics, the best you can afford. Buy good boots too. At the bear minimum you will need these two items more than anything else. Also save your money so you can apply in different states. At the top left of this forum, there are links to different state's game agencies. Go to each state you are interested in hunting and download a proclamation. Print it and read it. It will tell you everything you need to know for each state's system.
There are lots of units that you could hunt every year. It may take you a couple years to really learn the area but you've got to start somewhere. And you never know, you just might get lucky and draw a really good tag. Somebody has to. If you want to go the DIY route, I'd suggest subscribing to the Carter's service Huntin Fool. www.huntinfool.com It will help you decide where to hunt and give you contact info for information on each zone. It's a good tool for someone learning the Western Huntng system.

If you want to hunt with a guide, put your idea of trophy fees behind you. The vast majority of them do not charge such fees. Many of the fenced game ranches do, but very few outfitters who actully hunt wild game have such a fee schedule. Just look at some of the guide sponsors on this page. Ask around here too. There are lots of good hunts with over the counter or easy to draw tags, and no trophy fees. It all comes down to how much you want to spend. A good deer or elk hunt for average animals will start at about $3000 and will run up to $6000 for really good success rates and quality.

Good luck. You came to the right place to ask for help.

http://www.wildernessathlete.org/ because the most important piece of equipment you own is YOU!

 

[jasjacks]

beaverhead outfitters in NM are great I would recomend them anytime
good luck jason

 

[Wiszard]

Scott- Heres what I've discovered about hunting the western states....it is a waiting game to get the premium tags for the "trophy units". That doesn't mean there are not quality animals in the general units though. I really feel it takes a lot of research in order to find a good, quality hunting area. Read this forum and pick up tips and hints and areas where hunters have been successful. Ask for advice.....as most will help out here at MM. It is no easy task to learn how all the different state systems and draws work, but you will learn. Call Fish and Game and ask them questions. They will give you tips on possible areas to hunt. I'm in the same boat you are. I'm trying to find more areas to hunt than just my normal Wyoming spot that I've gone to the past 15 years. I've made some headway finding other spots in other states to hunt. You will as well if you put your time in. Good Luck!!


Steve

 

[JLTD]

watch the first three movies in the muley crazy series i dont think there is a guy on this site that will argue weather or no he knows his stuff.


Just Living The Dream

 

[Pahunter106]

Wow,
This is quite a response, and I wish to thank you guys for helping to steer me in the right direction. I have read Cameron Hanes most recently published book "Backcountry Bowhunting" And that is what has inspired me to attempt all of this. The candid way he describes getting into the middle of a herd to set up, is absolute fantasy here in PA.
To say that we are in a low percentage sport in PA would mean we actually had a chance to begin with !! Last year I would have thought I had a chance, as I kept getting busted in my treestand by this local 14 to 16 point that has everyone sick around here with an acute case of Buck Fever!!

Nobody seems to be able to stay conscious long enough to confirm his actual size!!!
No matter where I put my stand, I kept seeing evidence of this monster whitetail that had hooves a good 4 1/2 inches long and then the two dews were about 1 1/4 inches back. By PA standards, a record for our area!!! Around here in this part of Appalachia, we get the first day of Buck season off, because it is as much of a holiday as Thanksgiving...
I bought a new bow last year because of him. A Bowtech Old Glory, then a Fuse Intrepid sight, new climbing treestand, then switched to carbon fiber arrows and a Scent-Lok warm weather jacket; then I hunted hard for him 35 days this season, as my hunting area is only 12 minutes from the house, and I had that much time off of work this year.. Warmest season, I have ever been through which is what made it suck so bad! There was such a difference between what I saw last year...25 legal and shootable animals. { Around here they have to have a minimum of 3 points per side on one side. (So a 7 point, or 4 X 3 is legal)}
To this year... 3 animals. and a few imprints of "Old Moosey Antlers" ! (Remember in PA deer are nocturnal because of the hunting pressure)
Which is why I figured that if I am going to shoot as much as I shoot during the year and stay in shape, for "Ole Moosey", and invest as much money as I have invested, I might as well go out west and really get into the thick of things!!! In for a penny in for a pound!! I practiced out to 45 yards with my bow, and could group them about 4 inches consistently, because I had to pass on a 9 point last year, because I was unable to feel confident at anything over 25 yards. Got one to come in to me last lear at 30 - 35 yards, and with the light failing, I did not feel as though I could make a safe kill shot !!
Well I had better go, I am not getting into a better mood by talking about this "NO SHOW" bow season..
Thanks guys,
Scott

 

[fish4evr]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-07 AT 08:37PM (MST)[p]One more suggestion, try to practice a little farther out even if you wouldn't shoot game that far, it will increase your confidence and accuracy at the closer ranges. You will be surprised what today's bows can do. It sounds like you are on the right track keep it up. And you are going to love this site.

Onward and upward.
Fish4evr

 

[Pahunter106]

WOW ! Again.
Thank you very much to everyone who has responded to me. I appreciate the info and "directions on how to get to be a knowledgeable hunter" advice, I will take you guys up on this advice, and will probably PM some of you that have answered me, because you could have made fun of me, or given me Bull ^&!@# and I would not have known the difference. For a while anyway.
I will and do love to read info on those things I have a passion for, and hunting is definitely one of them.

Just one more thing.
I have been avidly reading other posts and one guy said that his recently harvested buck had really great "inlines" on all the forks, and I do not know what that means or why it should be important.
Here in PA, we can walk some great distances, and so I have a fairly good selection of boots. Will be saving next to get the Kenetreks for Summer, as soon as I can get the money together.
Out where you guys hunt, you could probably spend a week glassing the side of a mountain for what you are after and also how to get there without falling into a crevasse or what not...
I know the brands which are great, Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, Meopta, Steiner and so forth down the pecking scale. What I do not know is the size most everyone agrees on is ideal for both objective and magnification, and therefore weight.
I was thinking 8.5 X 42 Swaro EL.. Just to save on the weight aspect of great glass, and be done with it, but do any of you normally go as high as 15 Magnification X ... say 56 mm objective, or is this getting into the star-gazing aspect of an Astronomy binocular?
Thanks,
Scott

 

[Wiszard]

I think what most guys will do if they want higher power than 10 is pack a compact spotting scope along with them. That way you can save a lot of walking. Let your eyes do the walking for you. You can really cover (see) a lot of area with a high power spotting scope....plus you can judge an animal more closely to decide if it is one you'd like to go after. You are correct that, for the most part, the west is open area and you can glass a long way so good optics are a necessity!


Steve

 

[BigPig]

You are definitely on the right track. Kennetreks are a great choice. As are Meindl or Lowa. For optics, buy the best you can possibly afford, even if it means a few extra trips to the sperm bank. You won't regret it. All the brands you mentioned are good. 10x42's are probably the most versatile power and objective size. I also use a spotting scope too but if I could only have one, I'd definitely want the binos. Anything over 10X magnification will be almost impossible to hold steady enough and will need a tripod. Even with 10's you might want to consider glassing off a tripod. I do and highly recommend it. Holding them rock solid allows you to pick up a lot more detail that you might otherwise miss. I also have a tripod adaptor that enables me to switch to my spotting scope in just a few seconds. Stick with 10x's you'll be able to see plenty farr and you won't need a seperate pack mule for them.

http://www.wildernessathlete.org/ because the most important piece of equipment you own is YOU!

 

[jasn]

> Just one more thing.
>
> I have been avidly reading other
>posts and one guy said
>that his recently harvested buck
>had really great "inlines" on
>all the forks, and I
>do not know what that
>means or why it should
>be important.

Inlines are extra additional points beyond those of a "typical" deer frame, "inline" with all the others and extending upwards from their main beam. They are just additional points and a desired characteristics for many, although some just prefer the typical 4x4 muley (10 point by eastern standards). Droppers, drop down from the main beam. Cheaters are additional points sticking out horizontal, or nearly horizontal from another point to "cheat" and increase the width of a buck's outside spread measurment. A typical whitetail frame has all have 4 points extending from their main beam upwards; where typical muleys have eyeguards (or their first point), and their second point forks into 2 points, and their fourth point extends from the main beam (appears to be the upper part of the front fork). Any additional points "inline" with the 2nd or 4th point and extending from the main beam upwards are usually called inlines.