Corner Jumping

As I said, I know they do illegal searches and it is a violation of the 4th amendment. The law states they need probable cause to believe a violation occurred. A dog kennel in the back of your truck on opening day of pheasant season is probably reasonable suspicion that you are hunting. I might even give you that it is probable cause to believe you are hunting but that is not enough for a search. They would need, for it to be a lawful search, probable cause that a violation has occurred to search your truck. It's written into the Wyoming statue. I don't even begin to doubt that happened to you. Your civil rights WERE violated if that is the facts surrounding the search of your truck. I don't think its right but I know it happens.

The Wyoming statue is not written for Game Wardens. It is written for all law enforcement that enforces the act. So there is not a special provision for Game Wardens.

When you said "Seems "odd" they need to reinvent the wheel between a warden, city cop, highway patrol, etc. if they all have the exact same authority." In Wyoming they didn't reinvent the wheel. The authority for all law enforcement in regards to game and fish is written into the same statue.

Given that, I don't understand when you wrote "It appears there is a distinction in the authority between LEO's as written in the law code..."

As I have pointed out it's not.
 
You both appear to think that all these searches that BuzzH and I are talking about out in the field that happen throughout the country many times every day are all illegal because they are a violation of the 4th Amendment. I guess that means you also both think I did illegal searches for 30 years without warrants in my enforcement job too! What you guys can't get through your heads is that when you buy a hunting or fishing license (or any food or gas sales license that was issued by the MDA that I worked for in my case)you are automatically allowing agents to do those searches anywhere other than at a permanent residence under the statues that those licenses are issued under. In other words, you have given up your rights that would require a search warrant. The laws specifically require a warrant only at a residence because there is no hunting/fishing going on there. That's exactly why, as BuzzH has stated, that there are specific F&G enforcement laws and if they are being enforced by other than an F&G agent, I guarantee that somewhere in that state there is a statute giving that person authority to extend their normal duties beyond traffic enforcement, for example. The same thing goes for a F&G agent extending their duties to help outside agencies in their enforcement if, and when, needed. If warrantless searches in the field are illegal the way you guys state, there would be so many lawsuits against the F&G Departments throughout the country by persons who don't like any type of LEO doing their job that there would be no enforcement. Think about it this way in that the same thing occurs when you go on this website. When you register you agree to abide by the rules of the website, which may, for instance, exclude foul language. If you use foul language the webmaster has the right to ban you from the site, regardless of whether foul language is allowed by the 4th Amendment in other venues. Think about that!
 
We can assume you had a dog kennel in the back of your trk and got stop and searched?? Doesn't mean it was legal. Did you protest? Did you file a lawsuit for a violation of rights? (I wouldn't have) If no then there is only the wardens actions saying its legal. I would argue that those facts if driving down an interstate don't constitute PC. Now a dog kennel on a dirt county road in pheasant country with a shotgun in the back window no doubt would.

All of the law postings above have two words in common that seem to get forgotten, probable cause"and the violation of a law or rule.I have never said that certain things can't be searched without a warrant but PC is needed-or consent. Have done it numerous times against people's wishes and it was legal As warrantless vehicle searches go that was first set by the Carroll Doctrine over 85 years ago and HAS STILL not been overturned,modified-clearified numerous times but not over turned. Maybe it will be? It requires two things- PC cause of a CRIME and the exigent circumstance that the vehicle must be moveable and not practical to get a warrant. PC isn't a "could be". Having a hunting license isn't PC as what is evidence and what is the crime? You can't assume there is one as the majority of the time there isnt-thankfully

There is a hunch or gut feeling. A good thing but no real legal value

A suspision that can be articulated. Legal standard to stop a motor vehicle or detain a suspect.

Probable cause- enough to lead a reasonable person to believe (not the officer). Level needed for a search, without a warrant or to obtain one or arrest warrant.

Perpondernce- proof of 51%. "More likely than not"Level needed to convict in civil court

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Level to criminally convict you.

Didn't get it vetrbatim but that's close. So believe what people want. Carroll Doctrine didn't happen and having a hunting is probable cause to search by itself..if that's true then its probable cause to arrest you....PC is PC.
 
TOPGUN, I sent you a PM and to be very clear I NEVER have and NEVER will accuse you of doing an illegal search.

The Wyoming law is very clear and very simple and I was not trying to attack anybody. I am simply trying to clarify the law. The Wyoming statue states any law enforcement officer who can enforce game and fish laws can conduct the search when probable cause exists. Call the Wyoming game and fish and ask them if you give up your 4th amendment right by buying a license. The will tell you NO.

I also sent you another PM.
 
I have read back through the recent posts regarding searches, and I have to say MaineFlatlander seems to know his stuff. He even quoted a recent court case Arizona vs Gant (federal), which is equilavant to Wyoming vs Pierce (WY State). Utah400 also added some very good information in regards to warrantless searches.

I would disagree with the notion that you give up your 4th Amendment right because you purchase a hunting license. That arguement doesn't hold up, and a challenge anyone to provide case law that proves otherwise. I will save you some time. It doesn't exist. I would say it is a fact that could be used to establish probable cause with other facts. Probable cause defined is a set of facts and circumstances that lead a reasonable prudent person to believe a crime has been committed and the person has committed the crime. Just because you have a gun, a kennel, a dog does not mean you committed a crime. It just means you have been hunting. If the bag limit is 3, it is opening day, you are the only person hunting, and there is 4 sets of legs in plain view, then I would say the warden has probable cause.

I have to say some very good information provided in regards to searches, and some equally poor information as well.
 
G14 stated: "I have to say some very good information provided in regards to searches, and some equally poor information as well."

That is your opinion and only that and I respect it! Even IF the laws the F&G Wardens are enforcing in some states do say "with probable cause", it's rather weird that there is also no case law DISALLOWING what they are doing in those states to the best of my knowledge! If it is illegal and being done numerous times on a daily basis throughout the country, why do you figure that there haven't been lawsuits filed to overturn what they are doing? Why can they set up a roadside check station that everyone going hunting or that has been hunting that day must stop at to be inspected? I have seen one time on TV where a vehicle went by a check station without stopping and the guys in the truck were dressed in hunting clothing. A F&G Warden jumped in his car and took off and stopped them with the help of Officers from another jurisdiction. If they are doing all this illegally on a daily basis, it would seem that logic would say that somewhere they would have been called on the carpet and the Courts would have put a stop to it! That is not the case, but if it were to happen, we might as well not have any game laws and just allow a continuous open season 24/7 on all fish and game! If someone can explain why what you guys are saying is illegal throughout the country, even though it's still an everyday occurrence, I'm listening!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-11 AT 12:40PM (MST)[p]It is unlawful to:
■■Refuse inspection of any license, tag, or
permit by an employee
of ODFW, any
person authorized
to enforce wildlife
laws, or a landowner
or agent of the
landowner on their land.

The above is what we have in Oregon. Based on personal experience and what I have seen on those TV shows, the officer "asks" for permission to search the vehicle. I have never seen them search without permission.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-11 AT 10:31AM (MST)[p]Maybe WapitiBob has hit on something that I'm missing in that the way they approach the person to do their job is more of an asking type statement, rather than a demand. They could say something like: "I'm working the area and would like to take a look at ...". If there isn't any immediate negative response to their greeting they then go ahead and proceed to do "their thing"! All I know is that in my LE job the fact that the businesses that were doing certain activities were required by law to have a MDA issued license. A part of that licensing was that their business was open to a full inspection of the premises any time during normal business hours without warrant due to the fact that they had the license. Maybe I'm assuming something in this discussion and extending that to the F&G people when I shouldn't, but that is what I thought was the case. I fully intend to find out more on this subject and if I'm wrong I'm man enough to admit it. It wouldn't be the first time and probably won't be the last! All of you have a great holiday season and Bessed Christmas---MIKE
 
HMMMMMM. There IS case law!! It is called the Carroll Doctrine ruled on by the US Supreme Court in 1925 (?) And is still the case law. Used TODAY. So you asked and there it is. Even the laws stated clearly state there must be probable cause. Notice it doesn't say anyone who has a license? Why? Why say PC and have to prove PC which has been defined by the Court when they could just say possession of a license? I know the answer-because that is what the courts have said.

Why do they still do it? Because people think they can and never question it. Do cops do illegal searches? Sure do hopefully by mistake and not on purpose and that is why there are courts to hear supression hearings. Evidence is supressed everyday in this country as a result.

There are only two ways a search can be conducted.

1. Consent. Must be voluntary and yes the Court has set those standards and they can be difficult to prove but if you follow basic guidelines doable.A cop can just walk up to your house, knock on the door, and ask to search your house. You have a right to laugh and say no and close the door. .

2. Probable Cause- must be enough to lead a reasonable and prudent person to believe that a crime has been committed and evidence of that crime will be found during the search. There is only ONE level of PC. The officer can use it to ask the court for a warrant and must clearly state the place to be searched and what is being searched for(and yes the Court has set the guidelines on the minimum standards a warrant must meet as to location and item(s) to be searched)- or in exigent circumstances can act without the warrant as long as they have the same PC.There are not two SEPERATE levels of PC- only one Those exigent circumstances are not limited to vehicles, officer safety, and public safety but can be used to search houses as well.That's right-your home could be searched without a warrant!! The cops must still have PC and and an exigent circumstance and the courts will really look at the situation very hard-as they should! Most commonly in "life threatening" instances where it is unreasonable to take the time to get a warrant because someone will probably die But there must be PC and Exigent circumstances. The case law is the Carroll Doctrine(as exigent circumstances pertain to vehicles) which first ruled that a vehicle CAN be an exigent circumstance must also clearly stated there still must be PC to the same level needed for warrant-its just that the exigent circumstance doesn't allow the officer to take the time to do so.

So that's why the searches get done. Because they don't get questioned because the vast majority of the time nothing is found and no court cases are ever started. Hey, if I was a warden why would I tell you that you have right to say no? If they say we are going to search and you do not say no etc then it could be argued that you consented to the search and had an apportunity to object Guess what-if no one had every quesioned due process something called the Miranda Warnings would not exist.

As far as the TV show I think I saw that one too on Montana Wardens?? Remember, they do not need PC to stop a vehicle!! A much lower standard of proof call an articulable suspision is required. Hunting clothes, game cart in the back etc will probably rise to that level. Before a search could begin the next level of proof needs to reached called PC. Perhaps as the warden walks up to the truck there is an untagged deer in the back or maybe bloood and deer hair all over the tailgate and no one has a hunting license??

If people want to believe that a hunting license is PC to search then a warden could simply go to the court and say that Mr X has a license and I want to search his house and the court would grant it because here is ONLY ONE level of PC. Exigent circumstances do not lower the burden of PC proof. Now I'm not sure what crime they are going to claim to have occurred and what evidence of that crime they are going to find and how they know it is in your house(basic requirements) but it sure would make an interesting read...and yes most affidavits for warrants are open to the public unless the court keeps them secret for some time do to safety reasons etc. A term the courts use often to squash warrants comes to mind-vague.

Would I give consent to a warden to do a quick search of my camp or truck if I was hunting. Almost without doubt!! Just ask. They have a difficult job to do and would want them to move on to the next place where there may be poaching going on and not use their time with me. I was checked twice in WY this year and both were great. And I had moose antlers with me from a western unit but no meat, had shot an antelope near Casper but had no meat or horns, was scouting my elk unit in the bighorns two days early and had a deer tag for a unit several miles away. I showed him the moose antlers before he asked, explained the meat had been donated, had all the paperwork, and had a slip from the butcher for the antelope, check my elk tag....all in one neat file. His comment was, "wow" wish everyone would be like this. He never asked to search any of the coolers I had etc but if he had I would have said sure. We then dug out some of my maps and he pointed out a road across private that was open and would give me acess to some elk. He also pointed out a couple other spots to try. I filled my elk tag a few days later. That is how EVERY situation should go!!!Polite, helpful, but he also did his job and made sure I had the proper paperwork in order.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-11 AT 11:50AM (MST)[p]MaineFlatlander---Sounds like you, as well as Utah400Elk, have convinced me that I'm wrong! I was so set on being correct that I will admit that Doctrine you mentioned earlier went right by me! I guess I have more than a little egg on my face being in LE for 30 years and I guess it's because I "assumed" they were doing what I was able to do with no warrant. I know this thread got away from the corner jumping issue, but I think this is a very important issue too. I agree with your assessment of the Wyoming F&G people. Every one that I have met has been outstanding. I do have one last question that I'd like to run by you quickly. While hunting out there this year where I've hunted since 1994 the local Warden I know well stopped for a chat with us. He began asking questions regarding a bull elk that was supposedly shot by a trespasser on the deeded private property of the ranch where we hunt the adjacent state and BLM land. He said the rancher (the ahole mentioned in my other posts) suspected it was us because we hunt around there all the time! He even asked to see what knives we used. The knife one of my friends was carrying is the newer one that uses replaceable blades and the Warden had found several broken blades at the carcass. His eyes lit up like he had solved the case and that was the only knife of it's kind in existence! When he described where the carcass was I was able to show him photos of where our bull was taken and it was immediately obvious to him that it was a different area than where the poached bull was taken. My question is this. He just started asking us all those questions with no miranda rights. Was he able to do that because we weren't under arrest or did he violate our rights? Actually, we probably solved his case because my friend's Dad had watched a guy from CA go down into the canyon near where the bull was poached and heard several shots. I had talked to the CA guy the day before that and he was showing me his fancy GPS with the land ownership chip. During our discussion he mentioned he had a bull elk tag and a buck antelope tag, both of which are hard to get where I hunt. When I told him he was really lucky he stated that both were obtained by paying the special higher fee. He may be getting a call from a F&G Warden out in CA if the Wyoming Warden decides there's probable cause to believe he was the poacher because he remembered the CA guy having a bull in his truck the day he was checking hunters at the campground where the CA guy was camped! I would think a positive DNA test of the meat the guy has at his home would be pretty good to convict him if it matched the samples Tom took from the poached bull
Anyway, thanks for all the useful information and I'm glad this discussion was held properly and in a civil manner! Iwish all on this and other sites were done this way. Take care and Peace to all---MIKE
 
Topgun, I can answer that very quickly. In order for Miranda to come into play two things need to be present: custody and questioning. In your situation there was no custody so there is no Miranda needed. If it's a voluntary conversation then Miranda is not needed.
 
TopGun...you said the best of anyone!! Its the way they ask that will get them permission. You don't have to say "yes" to give consent in most cases. Simply doing nothing or opening one cooler next to him is enough for the officer to infer that you want him to look. Kind of like a used car salesman very good with the words.

Miranda warnings are only needed if you are under arrest AND being questioned The definition of "arrest" has been ruled on so many times by the court its almost funny. In a nutshell-would a reasonable persom feel they were free to go if they wanted and not answer any questions. I have had countless people under arrest, in the jail, so there is no doubt...tell me it was an illegal arrest because I didn't read them Miranda. I got a blank look when I would tell them I didn't have to read Miranda because I was not going to ask them any questions. (In most cases you want to ask questions but not always) I think he was fine asking questions because he had some information you MIGHT be involved but certainly didn't have PC to believe you did it and arrest you.

My in laws run a business that requires a license from the state. They are subject to health inspections at any time without a warrant. Business law vs Constitutional law. You have a lot more expectation of privacy in your personal life-papers-etc.

Have a great season and maybe I'll bump into you the hill someday. My camp is always open.
 
Thanks! I was pretty sure that was the case with the knowledge I do have on stuff, but when he started asking to look at our knives I was wondering about that. Since we had nothing to hide we had no problem with Tom doing what he did and we may have even solved the case if he follows up like he should and they are serious about findng and convicting the poacher. I'm 90% sure the CA guy was the guilty party. In fact, Tom may not even have to call the CA authorities because the guy should have sent a blood sample from his bull in to the Laramie F&G Lab for a Brucellosis test. I suggested to Tom that it would be easy to find the hunter because there should only be one CA guy with two special tags ffor those animals in the units we hunt. If Tom called the Lab to find out if they tested a sample sent in by the CA guy and the answer was affirmative, all he would need to do is see if that sample matched the samples he took from the poached bull. If the samples matched, they could probably get the guy under the Lacey Act just like they did the guy out there who killed a bull illegally several years ago and took it across state lines back to his home.
 
"My in laws run a business that requires a license from the state. They are subject to health inspections at any time without a warrant. Business law vs Constitutional law. You have a lot more expectation of privacy in your personal life-papers-etc. "

Therein lies the problem with my thinking on this subject---business law vs constitutional law! Thanks much for both of your explanations regarding this matter and you are both welcome in my camp at any time as well---MIKE
 
Wow "How about them Bears", or I mean the SeaHawks. Actually this has been great info and a good read. I'm personally looking forward to doing some "Corner Jumping" I just don't look forward to the hassles that come with it. DZ
 

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