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Caribou and USFWS

M

mightyhunter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,208
http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/news/local/article_b3329a90-2df7-11e1-bedb-001871e3ce6c.html

I thought some of the folks in Idaho might be interested in this link. The USFWS is now thinking about setting aside habitat for the mountain caribou in North Idaho. I think the total is 375,000 acres. This should result in more blocked roads and limited access in Bonner, Boundary and Pend Oreille County.

I lived in the Priest Lake area for over 20 years before moving to Wyoming. During that period of time, the caribou issue came up repeatedly. There was never any proof brought forward that mountain caribou had ever historically spent much time in Idaho. In the 20 years I lived in this area, I saw one caribou (a radio collared bull) which was hanging around the upper stretches of Two Mouth Creek on the east side of Priest Lake.

This is just another ruse by USFWS to block public access to public land. They accomplished a lot of this previously with the listing of the grizzly bear. I would hope that the USFWS would try to ascertain the number of caribou in Idaho, if any, before setting aside habitat. I also see a potential problem arising if the USFWS has to decide whether habitat loss or wolf and grizzly predation is reducing caribou numbers (assuming the caribou even exist). You can bet the USFWS will blame habitat loss and not predation. Predation would not fit the USFWS agenda.

If you want a laugh, the eco-elite animal rights groups in the area are claiming in this link that there is nothing to worry about.
 
Im all for the road closures. The more closures the better this state will be. The land isnt closed off btw, you can walk cant you? Its just closed to motorized travel.
 
dreaminabouthuntin,

I don't have a dog in this fight. I left North Idaho many years ago. I remember the road closures, gates, tank traps and pulled bridges all in the name of improving grizzly bear habitat. My concern is the ruse and subterfuge that the USFWS uses to designate habitat for an animal that likely has never had a significant presence in the state. That part of North Idaho is very densely timbered with thick underbrush and downfall. Trails and roads become overgrown rapidly. There are a lot of people who will be damaged economically by more closures. I am not so selfish and cavalier as to think that as long as it doesn't bother what I enjoy, who cares.

I hunt solely on foot. Horses and ATV's are not my thing and never have been. I will be 57 in a few weeks. Where I live in Wyoming has its own battles with wolves and an exploding grizzly bear population. The country in my backyard makes the mountains in North Idaho(Selkirks)look like the plains of Kansas. Yes, you can walk in these areas. But who knows when they will change that in the name of improving habitat. I wouldn't take anything for granted. In this part of Wyoming, they ban any access into much of the USFS backcountry from December 15th until Spring. That would suggest the federal government can do whatever they want, they just need a excuse to do so. What you enjoy may be next.
 
What I enjoy is closed off and im glad it is. This state is overrun with roads and atv trails as it is.
I spend my time in the Frank Church and my reasons are lack of roads. If closing this area off means less atv and truck travel through a forest, im a supporter.
I have horses, but very rarely trail ride, i do cutting mostly. So even no horse travel.. if thats what it becomes, dosent bother me either. What does bother me is the lack of respect alot of Idahoans have for the land and its resources. They feel it is their land to do whatever they want to it. I disagree. It is public land, but boundaries must be put in place to help preserve it from encroachment.

I realize.. caribou?? Really? But, if thats the excuse they need to close an area down to moto travel.. well, guess thats good enough for me. I just wish they would use that same excuse in areas I use to hunt in the SE region because that place is out of control. Key to that sentence is USE to hunt.

I am like you in the sense that foot hunting is the only way I will hunt. I love it and the challange. Unfortunatly not everyone shares our sedement. With atv use tripeling over the last 10 years, something needs to be done.

I went on a hunt recently in N.D. no roads, atvs, horses, ect. It was incredible. Packed the elk out on our backs, hunted so hard we were all too exhausted to eat dinner and just wanted to sleep. It was backcountry hunting at its best. It helped me realize as well that land needs to be set aside that limits moto travel.

But I do get your point.. caribou?? Not even a huntable animal in Idaho.
 
Dreamin, I take it you don't make a living logging or mining. These roads were not created for people to only hunt on. Contrary to what people like you think the public lands aren't just for hunters. They were created to access what once was a vital resource for rural Idaho.Many people use these roads and areas for woodcutting,mushroom hunting fishing and above everything else just getting into the woods. If you don't like roads by all means stay in the Frank. We do not need any more areas closed down by the USFWS and the heavy hand of the elitist gov't and their enviro cronies
 
Some people are so selfish, just because you don't use the roads doesn't mean they should be closed just so YOUR hunting experience can be better. There are wilderness areas for YOU and like minded outdoorsmen but many won't be happy until it is ALL the way they like it regardless of the effect it has on others.

Before you make an assumption of me and my hunting style and ability, I do not hunt from a quad or horse and don't hunt the area in question. There are laws against abusing quads and the land we hunt on and more laws won't help it will just make for less opportunity for law abiding individuals just like more gun laws will.

SCREAM AND ##### until law enforcement and the system properly punishes the dirtbags breaking the rules and you won't need laws shutting out the ones who aren't.

People who love to hunt the way you do get older and can't or have kids who can't (super young kids, good parents I believe take their kids from before they can walk) and they should have places to go also. Things change in life in an instant and they change your perspective and your priorities. You may someday wish you could drive into that area and find a gate.

You are not ANY BETTER than a guy riding a quad LEGALLY To his hunting area regardless of what you think.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
WE DON'T NEED ANYMORE CLOSURES BY THE USFWS. YOU GIVE THEM AN INCH AND THEY WILL TAKE A MILE.
 
Yep by all means stay in the Frank Church.
But ya better be walking there, and don't you be using any roads to get too and from, or you might just be considered a hypocrite.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-12 AT 07:21PM (MST)[p]I dont think i have ever read a bigger bunch of whinners in my life. Im just shaking my head after reading the pure idioctacy. The usfws isnt shutting it down, its still open. Just not to moto travel. And is it not the usfs that is creating new trails all over the state for you atv'ers? Ya, it is. Do none of you read anything? Idaho is more littered with trails created by the usfs than any other state.
Now, just because you cant get your truck or atv atop the mountain you hunt you cry foul? Ya, walk. So?? There are plenty of other roads to take, places to hunt ect. Regulations need to be put in place. Happy to see it.
And yes, thanks, i will stick to the Church. I hunt a foot and will continue without being disturbed by moto traveling rigs.
Idaho is a pro atv happy state. They want to set aside some land for animals so they are not bothered by moto travel and irrosion issues.. ok with me.
Runamuk, really? What a rediculous and childish purely idiotic assesment. I find it very disturbing just how many of you are illiterate or unable to comprehend what you have read about the inititave.
Huntindad, yes I am better than an atv'er that rides all over hunting. I think a hunter that is able to walk but instead rides all over is lazy. So? Thats my opinion. I have no issue with the older or handicaped riding atvs in designated areas. They cant walk.
Now, im ready, let'er buck with the insults and i will ignore each and everyone of them.
 
Bull chit, I Said I don't hunt from a quad and it will not affect me the funny part is it won't affect you either and still you back it regardless of what it may do for someone it does affect. Your selfish. You are okay with places for the elderly and handicapped to use their ATV to hunt but where will that be? Some half azz country where guys like you who think they're better don't want to hunt? Why should others give up accesss so you can have it your way? Would you be willing to have an access road into your wilderness hot spot for those handicapped and elderly to ride their ATV in to hunt?

The not in my spot attitude goes both ways.

Like I said if things change in YOUR life to make it impractical or impossible to hunt the way you do are YOU gonna be okay having just a few chitty spots to hunt? I bet not.

You are right ID is VERY ATV friendly and probably too much so. But there are plenty of good and LEGIT reasons to limit use and enforce it to the fullest so it bugs me a little when they start making up reasons to take access away from ANYONE, and this will, it won't be me or you but someone will lose on this and to ASSUME it is just slob hunters is idiotic.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
For starters, there was historically a small caribou population in NW Montana and the Panhandle of Idaho. Teddy Roosevelt shot caribou in what is now Glacier Park.

Secondly, there is no mention in the article that anything is going to be closed off. Even if closures are done, they are very likely to be seasonal closures. Could be some permanent closures as well.

The best thing to do, if you're really concerned is to study up on the issue. Find out before you go getting all knotted up about it. Then take the time to send in constructive comments...not like those that have been posted here.

My favorite argument on these types of threads is how "we're being locked out of public land"...not true. Like has been stated, you can still hunt, fish, shoot, hike, bird watch, whatever when roads are closed to motorized travel. Nobody is keeping anyone out.

The next favorite line is how, by closing areas off to mechanized travel, that its somehown selfish and that your taking away "rights".

Really?

How about my "right" to limit motorized access? My "rights" dont count? Its ok for the gearheads to have 2-5 miles of roads per section, but not OK that I want to close some of those roads off?

Then, when you consider the amount of public lands that are accessible via motorized access to areas that are truly roadless/wilderness...it becomes more than apparent who is selfish and who isnt. Currently, there are 380,000 miles of open roads in Region 1 on FS lands. If old guys, kids, and the motorized crowd cant find a place to hunt or pick berries...they arent trying very damn hard. Thats not counting roads on state land or BLM either.

I've spent the last 25 years working in Idaho, Montana, both Dakotas, Wyoming, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, and New Mexico...most all of it in the field on all ownerships. Also spend a fair bit of time each year hunting...and to say that access is too limited is a bunch of BS. The work I do is set up on a grid with a work site every 5km across the entire interior West. I typically visit 100 sites a year...and of those, less than 5% are more than 5 miles from a motorized trail of some sort. I bet 80% of that 5% is located in designated wilderness or National Parks.

Too little access in not an issue...using old people, young kids, etc. to justify more motorized access or to keep areas open is a lame excuse and has no merit.
 
Oh gawg someone woke up buzz! LOL

Only read the link above and the comments not the history of the world and Teddy, but the OP was about a closure.

These of kids , old people etc. Is NO MORE LAME than using YOUR standard of how the land should be used or access granted to say what should be closed Buzz it's ALL a matter of perspective.

Your right there are plenty of places for the old, very young, handicapped and gearheads to use now and NOBODY here is asking for more. But by many perspectives there is also plenty of backcountry to get away now and EVERY time one of these threads comes up you post a beotch for more, which is fine but you should someday wake up and realize you are being no more or less selfish than the other side and are thinking only of YOUR WAY.

If one enjoys driving his vehicle for whatever reason down a particular mountain road and they gate it it is locking out HIS method of enjoying that road to suit another segment of society and is no different than plowing a road into your wilderness spot just so a segment of society can drive on it.

PERSPECTIVE!

Consider your numbers above (no need for me to copy and paste) and ask yourself what percent of the population that uses the outdoors does so by using
those roads and what percent is trying to get away from them and tell me why the whole thing as you seem to want should be accessible by foot only to suit such a small segment of society.I bet if you divided the number of miles of road
you claim above by the users that choose to use a vehicle to get where they are going and divide the number of wilderness miles by the number of wilderness users the mile per user would be pretty close.

I've hunted a lot of places too and there hasn't been too many places I've
hunted that are so covered in roads that a BA foot huntinfool can't go coyote out away from it all and pick his own berries too, or hunt or whatever, if so they aren't trying very hard.

I have said before and will say again there are many places with very valid reasons that should be closed to vehicular travel and a larger segment of public land should be cleaned of roads and trails. If you close an area someone loses something out of it so it is a balance based on perspective. To say nobody loses is a lie. It's just a question of how great that loss is compared to the gain by another group.

To use a BA attiiude and portray yourself to be the hikingest solo backpackingest hunter alive and anyone who uses a road to get their camp with their vehicle into their hunt area is a lazy azz road hunter is an even LAMER excuse and has LESS merit!

Close it, doesn't effect me. It will sure make someone feel better that there is another piece of land only accessible by foot even though they have no interest in ever going there in their lifetime it's just good to know it's there, right?

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
http://ravallirepublic.com/news/state-and-regional/article_88284c2f-6c2e-5081-be66-81c99cdb4aec.html

Here is another link on the subject with a bit more factual information. It may give you some idea on what is proposed and what groups are supporting it. The statement made by Buzz H concerning the caribou is somewhat misleading. Along the border with Canada, a few caribou would wander into North Idaho. (I don't know about Montana) The numbers were low (less than 50) and they never determined that they historically spent any significant time in Idaho. I do remember that a problem took place in North Idaho many years ago with an experimental population of caribou when a collared grizzly bear killed a collared caribou. I believe it was up by Abandon Creek (NE of Priest Lake) but I could be wrong. The initial reports involved the USFWS looking for the alleged poacher of a caribou. The USFWS employees monitoring the situation found themselves in a real dilemma when they discovered that the poacher was one of their own bears. I tried to find a link to the Priest River Times or Sandpoint Bee article on the subject, but couldn't find it. I know it was at least 20 years ago.

I doubt that any habitat improvement, including reduced access to motorized vehicles, would result in any increase in the caribou population in North Idaho or NE Washington. I believe that the grizzly population and the expanding wolf population would take care of any struggling caribou. If the feds want to make more areas roadless, do it and be courageous enough to explain your real reasons for doing it. Just don't use the ruse of "caribou habitat" as the excuse. That is pure nonsense and the USFWS knows it.

With regard to Buzz H, when it involves defending the actions of any federal agency, he is all in. If anything, he is a loyal employee. Just remember that when you evaluate any "opinion" he puts forth. I am sure we can all enjoy the Buzz H rocket ship going off on yet another subject. He will probally claim to have been involved in the caribou debacle from the outset.
 
So.. you ride atvs to get your lazy butt around during hunting season huh. Everything you just said is pure lunatic jibberish. Typical its my land i will do what i want to attitude. Excuses excuses..
 
Okay pot, go ahead and call the kettle a lunatic,LOL!

Nobody said they hunt from their ATV that I saw, if I missed it show me.

Nope didn't think so.

I simply pointed out that the land belongs to every U.S. citizen and just because you and Buzz like gates and closures doesn't mean it is for everyone.

I make NO EXCUSE for how or where I hunt, not to you or anyone!

I know in your small mind if I speak against gates and closures I must be a slob road hunter, well shows you don't know chit about that either!

Just bought my first ATV 2 years ago and haven't even taken it hunting. Don't plan to. After 25+ years of hunting the way I do a wheeler just doesn't fit in the plan for deer hunting so wrong on that one too!

You can't police ethics (people riding and driving where they aren't supposed to, people poaching, people leaving trash) but no matter how you look at it if you put up a gate and block roads in the name keeping people from doing the wrong thing, it also effects someone who is doing their thing legally even if it's not YOUR WAY. But I know you don't care as long as you can enjoy it your way, right?

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
Keep living in that fantasy world where all is just fine and dandy in the woods. Btw, it is illegal to do as you mentioned AND morally trashy.
As for the last sentence in your post.. yep! Cheers to me.
DILLIGAF.
 
Thanks for proving my point your right it is illegal and morally trashy and even with the laws it is still done so.......

Maybe quit dreaming bout new closures and inspire your law enforcement to do it's job and prosecute the plucks to the fullest.

At least you admit you only. Care about yourself and your view, makes you an azzhole but at least your an honest azzhole.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
Hey im one of the most honest folks you will meet. And if you only knew the fires I have started with LE in this state about the problem. Ive done everything i could possibly do to get them to enforce laws, but i was told by a sheriff, yep a sheriff, that his deputies dont have a problem with it happening and wont help fish and game enforce the laws because he gives his deputies the right to pick and choose which laws they uphold and which ones they dont against whomever they want. Now be in my shoes having a sheriff tell you that.
Fish and game is spread too thin and the usfs has stated they will not enforce the laws either. Its a freakin mess.
All i can do is try and enjoy the land set aside for folks such as myself and stay away from the heavy atv areas. btw, been to Island Park resevior? All i can say is hell on earth. It is the trashiest place in Idaho. Littered, atv trails everywhere, drinking, fights, ect. A pure nightmare. Sad it turned into what it is now.
I dont go out and publicly support road closures and push for more legislation, but i wont fight a closure. I welcome it, from my point of view.
To each his own.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-12 AT 09:13AM (MST)[p]the last third or so of dreamin's post is interesting. an uber hiker sierra club type hunting in an area that has been a road hunting mecca for decades then whineing about it when they hunt and incounter an atv,they stomp their feet, puff out their bottom lip and run to law enforcement.a ton of area there is open for atv use . simple , hunt roadless areas that are full of deadfalls and very steep or areas that no one in their right mind would off road in. or quit bit*hing about it if you choose to hunt an area that is open, and or known for atv use.and i see plenty of trash on the ridges from "hiker elites". but if you read your description ALL atv users swill beer and throw trash everywhere.

so sick of the " everyone should do it my way or it's wrong " mentality. like it or hate it we have to find common ground somewhere. do i condone off road travel in closed areas ? absolutly not ! do i want all roads closed for off road travel ?
hell no ! not everyone has the time to pack in 8 miles to hunt . some have one day or two tops at a time. also sick of hearing this b.s. of hiking in for miles and killing an elk and packing the WHOLE elk out by yourself in ONE trip and stories of the like.

if folks want to puff out their chests and feel like a REAL man because they don't own and atv, and hike 17 miles a day, good for them. but peering down your nose at the thought of anyone using an atv for LEGAL entry has serious issues. as well as some on this site, not all however !, i know for 1000% fact, brag they don't use atv's and go way back in see tons of big deer, ride in on dirt bikes . i like my privacy too. i ride in on OPEN roads then hike in from there. i also don't like it when people ride in to my areas, most times on dirt bikes which can go far more places than a 4 wheeler, and are very noisy.or horsemen. it is what it is.i am not going to whine about it if i was that upset by it i would stay home.

also when most all the roads are closed to the joy of most here, the super inshape guys will eventually get medical issues, get old and won't be able to hunt anymore, guys will sell all there atv's. no one will hunt but horse hunters who will spread invasive species weeds all over the place . sounds like i need to buy a HORSE, as they are never brought up in the closed road discussion but ride right past the closed road gates hundreds of times each season with no fan fare or hatred. the idea is to keep people out no ?? i am tolerant of anyone except the self-rightous ones.
 
Assume.. thats what you did is ass.u.me.
Total missrepresintaion of what i said. Where there are PROBLEMS, no one does a damn thing. Just let you gear heads do whatever the hell you want. Tear up the land, ruin hunting in areas, ect.
Admit it, there are problems in areas of the state where gear heads have ruined it. Just admit it.
I get so sick and tired of this whats yours is mine and whats mine is mine mentality. This is whats wrong with this damn country, you spoiled ass americans getting what ever you want when you want, do what i want culture.
Spoiled Americans are terrorists in there own county by draining it of natural resources and treating her as if she is expendable. What you gonna do when its all gone? Piss and moan about the way it used to be, or get off your asses right now and make it last.
Im not some tree hugging lib, i just have a brain unlike most of you and can see how alot of this will effect the generations to come. But thats too advanced for small minded individuals such as yourselves.
Its obvious some of you dont get 'it', and that is troublesome. But i resfuse to stoop and argue with idiots anymore.
Stay away from me in the hills and i'll stay away from you.
 
sorry i jumped to assumptions. i guess i was posting to others as well. my apologies. and yes there are PLENTY of places that have been ruined by excesive and illeagal atv use. i agree 100%.
i just jumped in that not everyone is a hillbilly trashing the ecosystem because we are riding an atv. idiots come in all flavors not just atv users. and i am in agreement with
Stay away from me in the hills and i'll stay away from you. maybe this should be a a new slogan for hunters.
 
the idea is to keep people out no ??

Not the case at all.

The reasons for closures typically have a laundry list of justifiable reasons.

With decreased budgest across many state and federal agencies, just maintaining established roads is well beyond most budgets. There is a huge back-log of road maintenance on state and federal lands caused by 10-15 years worth of decreasing budgets. Seems everyone thinks that maintaining roads and managing fish, game, and parks is free...I'm here to tell you its not. Maintaining equipment, hiring employees to run said equipment, culverts, fuel, are all expensive. I'll also say $10 ATV stickers are not covering the cost...neither are cheap hunting licenses. The reason enforcement is lacking is also a budget related issue. Rarely, I mean very rarely, is there more than one LEO per Ranger District employed by the FS or BLM. In many cases, because of budget short-falls, "zoning" one LEO to cover 2-3 districts is very common. Same with wardens...barely one per county in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming.

Without adequate funds, the choices are few...and more likely than not, installing gates to cut down on road maintenance costs is about the only option. Same goes with trails, parks, etc...no funds and something has to give. For the last decade the American Public has demanded that the State and Federal agencies "do more with less". While I agree with efficiency, there reaches a point where you truly have to do "less with less". We're way past that point, and have been for many years.

I find it ironic that people whine about closures on the one hand...but call for tightened budgets on State and Federal agencies. Cant have it both ways.

Secondly, there is no mention of whats best for the wildlife. In areas of high road densities quality game and quality experiences are few and far between. There are few options in management strategy with increased and easy access. Typically, buck to doe and bull to cow ratios are very low when animals are vulnerable via road access. Hunter success rates in such areas are also typically pretty low and the animals that are harvested are typically very young. The management choices become very narrow, and its also typical to start hearing complaints about herd quality, amount of animals, etc. in easy access areas. The only thing to do to improve herd structure, age structures, etc. in easy access areas are to shorten seasons or go to limited quota. Frankly, I think both of those options suck...I'd rather limit access to non-motorized use and have general tags and longer seasons. Hunting should be about hunting, whats best for wildlife...not about shooting an animal off the mirror of a truck or handlebars of an ATV.

Another BIG problem is that the people who typically hunt high motorized use areas...they start pushing illegally into former roadless country. The legal, easy access areas are over-hunted and shot out. So, they respond by illegally going around gates, establishing illegal roads, etc.

Its a huge problem and I see it all the time all throughout the West. One area I hunt in Montana has huge problems and has only gotten better because I've worked with the local LEO (a long-time friend) and turned in several illegal ATVers. Word has gotten around that "someone" is watching and turning people in. Thanks to an aggressive approach, things are much, much better. However, I feel that most areas are not getting this kind of attention.

IMO, access should not be to the point that it causes shortened seasons, has significant impact to herd structures, health, and dynamics. Limiting access can keep those things from happening.

As to the "you'll be old and not able to get there" bit...yeah, I will. But I'm not so self-centered that I think I should be given special privileges just because I'm old, or that new roads should be constructed so I can always get to my hunting areas. There is much, much, much more value to me, in the knowledge that the next generation of hunters will be able to enjoy the same areas I hunt now. Even though I am fully aware that my days of hunting those areas surely are numbered. I'm OK with that...I dont expect anything extra because I've hunted an area for a long time, because I'm old, or because of anything else that limits my access to said areas.
 
Dreamin I respect your second to the last post and agree with most of it and don't think we are too far apart on this issue. It just gets lost in a pissing match.

Buzz I fully respect your post as well and agree with 90% of it or more. I too would want more closures in the most densely roaded areas of the west.

I hope you put your opinion on roadless areas doesn't change within your health or else you my find yourself in my conflicted shoes. I don't want more roads in fact less as I said in some areas. I just don't want more closures of large areas. And yes I realize how little wilderness there is per nonwilderness but much of what is open is useless to a deer hunter aorta the percentage doesn't accurately tell the story IMO. I used to want more roadless areas myself until my health changed and it effected my kids and how we hunt. Selfish I know but it is what it is.

Thanks for doing your part finding a way to work with local LE to slow ATV abuse.


Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
I have always liked road closures myself, regardless of the reason its closed. Its usually easy walking and less traffic in the area. Animals tend to have less pressure which is always a plus. just walking the roads can be great, its quiet and easy. i do enough of the rough cross country stuff, its nice to find a good locked gate now and again.

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
 
The cynicism regarding closures like this comes from the murky role of the PACs and the influence they have on an agency like the USFWS. The ESA has been manipulated and abused so often, one cannot help but to be skeptical when "habitat" is at issue.

Who is pushing this agenda and what is the ultimate goal??? So many groups are anti-hunting and anti-land use of any sort its likely that this proposal is the first step in an effort to bottle up public land for any use. Whether you agree with the road closures or not, don't be blind to the hidden objectives which may very well be in play here.

Spotted owls, wolves, grizzlies, old growth, now caribou. All vehicles to advance a wider agenda.
 
Then you shouldnt have any problem listing the total number of acres of public land that have been shut down to hunting, fishing, hiking, etc. because of wolves, spotted owls, grizzlies, old growth and caribou.
 
Buzz I live right in the middle of the origin of spotted owl closures and founder would kill me for wasting space if I started listing land on the west coast closed off in the name of that fuggin owl! Bought and paid for with public monies and given to orgs. to preserve it only to be closed except for nature hikes. That is the main reason closures make me Leary.

Sierra club and save the Redwoods league have closed off a lot of hunting land.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
How much public land has been closed to hunting due to spotted owls?

Private is a private...and I'm 100% in favor of private property rights. If a group wants to buy up private land and keep hunters out...so be it.

Again...how much public land has been closed to hunting because of wolves, grizzlies, spotted owls, and old growth.

I want numbers...
 
Hello Mr Buzz,
As a hunter my primary interest is the preservation of the hunting heritage and to maintain and enhance my young daughter's opportunity to do the same. I hope we may all agree on this. A new roadless area may well further this goal. It may not, and this was not my point. My point was, specifically, groups like the defenders of wildlife DO NOT share this goal. And, I am cautious to embrace proposals supported by such a groups. Further, the influence such a group obviously has on a critical agency like the USFWS is alarming. I didn't say a roadless area is a bad idea, I said one must be very suspicious of such an agenda considering its backers.

Acres lost to hunting because of the spotted owl and the ESA? I know of none personally, I don't live there. Someone who makes his living in the lumber industry or someone who lost the use of private land due may have other issues.

Lost hunting opportunity due to wolves and the ESA. Lolo and Pioneer zones are great examples. Less controlled tags available. Also loss of revenue to local communities and ranchers. My daughter will never see the elk herds I grew up with. Thanks defenders of wildlife.

I could go on; bear baiting, trapping, etc. Look at the Marine Life Protection Act in California. There is no shortage of people who don't think you should be hunting and roadless areas are a means to that end. Having said that, I hunt plenty of roadless myself and have been terribly frustrated with those who abuse the roadless rules. I tendered no opinion on this particular one. Let's just not be so naive as to think its just about caribou.
 
I AM AGAINST ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THE DESTROYERS OF WILDLIFE SAY OR DO. THAT GROUP ALONG WITH SEVERAL OTHERS ARE VERY DANGEROUS AND SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED. WHAT YOU SEE IS NOT WHAT YOU GET. THEY HAVE A 30 YEAR PLAN, IT'S WELL THOUGHT OUT AND THEY ARE VERY PATIENT AND WELL FUNDED.

I AM AGAINST ANYMORE LAND BEING DESIGNATED WILDERNESS .

TO SAY WE ARE GOING TO CLOSE A ROAD TO HELP THE CARIBOU HERD GROW IS A LIE.

HOWEVER IF THEY SAID WE ARE GOING TO REMOVE/REDUCE THE POPULATION OF WOLVES AND HUMPY'S TO HELP THE CARIBOU HERD GROW . THAT WOULD BE A TRUTH

THE REMOVAL OF THE PREDATOR IS THE ANSWER. THIS HERD SPENDS TIME IN CANADA AND THEY HAVE AN OUT OF CONTROL WOLF POPULATION AS WELL. THE WOLF IS AN APEX PREDATOR AND IS VERY GOOD AT WHAT HE DOES. WHERE EVER THE WOLF IS LEFT UNMANAGED YOU WILL SEE BIG GAME HERDS IN DECLINE. THE MOOSE IS ALREADY GONE FROM SOME AREAS OF IDAHO . THIS LOSS IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE WOLF

IF THE CARIBOU COULD TALK WHAT WOULD THEY SAY ..GET RID OF THE WOLVES AND HUMPY'S OR CLOSE THE ROADS...

ALSO THIS THING ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO AFFORD TO MAINTAIN A ROAD. SOLUTION WOULD BE RUN A GRADER DOWN THE ROAD ONCE EVERY YEAR OR 2 OR 5 IF NEEDED AND CALL IT GOOD. IF YOU NEED 4WD TO ACCESS THE ROAD THEN SO BE IT ! IF YOU CAN'T HAUL YOUR 5TH WHEEL UP THE ROAD CAUSE IT'S TO ROUGH THEN I GUESS YOU KNOW WHERE YOUR CAMP WILL BE...SIMPLE..I LIKE TO USE MY ATV TO GO FROM POINT A TO B AND THEN HIKE IN AND SPEND THE DAY HUNTING. A ROUGH ROAD USUALLY MEANS LESS PEOPLE. BUT IT'S STILL AN OPEN ROAD !! JUST MY OPINION
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-12 AT 11:24AM (MST)[p]Buzz I KNOW of one piece of land not 2 miles from my house purchased by the STATE and Sierra club jointly and then given to the state and closed to all but hiking and the occasional road tour. Another purchased by fish and game and traded to the state park that was great water fowling and is now closed. The last not due to the owl. The former indirectly through regulation due to the owl.

Is there any that are directly tied that can be proven with a direct paper trail? Probably not and this one won't either but the ESA and other bull chit avenues have created many closures to land for many hunters, I know you swallow every money shot the govt. launches your way (I assume you work for them) but I don't and I hate the way they peck away at our rights and priveleges.

If you don't think the govt. has payed for land either with the grants they give for the studies of these bull chit closures through ESA and the like or directly such as the case with the property I was speaking of then you are far more dilusional than I suspected.

Every piece of public land in CA is closed to hunting Cougars which are not endangered and are plentiful. I know it is an individual law for an individual animal but what is next. If you wish to see where the west is going with gun and hunting laws you need only look at Kali because like it or not they set the standard that our more and more liberal leaning Govt. is heading.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
HUNTINDAD IS SPOT ON.....THE COUGAR HAS NOT BEEN HUNTED LEGALLY IN CA SINCE 1970. THE ROAD CLOSURES IN THE NATIONAL FORESTS IS STAGGERING OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS. THE TACTICS USED IN CA ARE THE SAME BEING USED IN SURROUNDING STATES. MOST FOLKS DON'T REALIZE WHAT'S GOING ON AROUND THEM. WAIT UNTIL THE BABY BOOMER GENERATION IS NOT AROUND ANYMORE AND WATCH THIS REALLY GET ROLLING. AS LONG AS THEY CAN KEEP EVERYONE DIVIDED AND BICKERING AMONGST THEMSELVES THEY WILL QUIETLY KEEP MOVING FORWARD WITH THERE AGENDA. THE LAST THING THEY WANT IS PEOPLE TO GET AS ORGANIZED AS THEY ARE AND START PUSHING BACK.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE REINTRODUCTION OF THE GRIZZLY BEAR TO CALIFORNIA. IT IS THE STATE ANIMAL AFTER ALL. I THINK THE PACIFIC CREST TRAIL WOULD BE A GOOD SPOT TO START THE PLANTING. ALL PROBLEM BEARS IN THE NORTHERN ROCKIES CAN BE RELOCATED TO YOSEMITE AND 100 MILES NORTH AND SOUTH SHOULD BE A GOOD START. WE WILL SAY THAT 150 IS A GOOD NUMBER BUT REALLY GIVE THEM 1500 AND THEN KEEP MOVING THE GOAL POST FURTHER AND FURTHER UNTIL THEY HAVE ABOUT 5'000 OF THE SOB"s...SOUND FAMILIAR...THIS WILL NOT EFFECT THE BIG GAME IN THE STATE BECAUSE THE LION NOT BEING HUNTED FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS HAS TAKEN CARE OF THAT ISSUE. A FEW ELK , A FEW DEER AND A FEW HOGS IS ABOUT ALL THAT IS LEFT. BERRIES IS WHAT'S FOR DINNER....LOL
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-12 AT 02:55PM (MST)[p]Muley204,

Running a grader down a road costs money...just like I said. Its much cheaper to install a gate, in particular when your budget doesnt even cover payroll.

As far as the mountain lion issue in California...that has nothing to with spotted owls, old growth or the ESA.

Thats a direct result of a complacent bunch of hunters in California allowing the hunting of a species to be stopped by a minority. Nearly every state has equal numbers of hunters to true anti hunters with a vast majority indifferent to hunting.

There was no "government" responsible for what happened to lion hunting in California, it was a ballot initiative. Apparently hunters werent too concerned about it, or they would have done more to defeat it. Dont start with the "we tried" bullchit either...trying doesnt cut it.

You can continue to drag up the red herrings on every cast, but the bottom line is...there has not been a lose of the right to hunt due to any of the things that were listed...wolves, grizzlies, spotted owls, or old growth.

Didnt happen...
 
BUZZ , YOU ARE AN IDIOT. YOU SOUND LIKE A TREE HUGGIN WOLF LOVER.

SOLUTION , STOP RUNNING THE GRADER DOWN THE ROAD AND DON'T BY THE GATE. I WILL BET YOU,, THAT A 4WD CLUB OR A ATV CLUB COULD BE PUT IN CHARGE OF MAINTAINING THE TRAIL OR ROAD AT NO COST. PROBLEM SOLVED.

THE LION, SPOTTED OWL , WOLVES , GRIZZLIES, THE ESA , THE EPA , GUN CONTROL , OLD GROWTH , THE REDUCTION OF BIG GAME HERDS , ROAD CLOSURES , MORE WILDERNESS AREAS , NO LOGGING , NO DRILLING , NO MINING , NO NUCLEAR.... THIS IS ALL TIED TOGETHER

BUZZ YOU NEED TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK !!! IT'S OK TO TELL THE TRUTH EVEN WHEN IT HURTS , BUT TO SPREAD LIES AND HALF TRUTH LIKE YOU PEOPLE DO IS ENOUGH TO MAKE ME VOMIT.

SAVE A 100 ELK KILL A WOLF
 
BUZZ , I REREAD SOME OF YOUR B.S. AND CAME UP WITH THE SAME CONCLUSION. LOL ...WHACKO STILL COMES TO MIND....WATCH WHAT HAPPENS IN THE NEXT 30 YEARS AND REMEMBER WHAT WAS DISCUSSED HERE. I GUARANTEE I WILL SADLY BE RIGHT AND YOU WILL SHAMEFULLY WILL BE WRONG.
 
204,

Your the pot calling the kettle black. You constantly type in caps, annoying as hell, btw.
I havent read complete and utter bullsh!t in my life. Let me paint your canvas.. you a gear head with a jacked up pickup with big ol mud tires on them.. im close right. You piss and moan about your 'rights' to ride on the land at your will. Because damnit, your an american! You pay taxes, ect. So you should be able to do what you want. Right?
Heres a reality check for ya. You dont have any 'rights' and no, its not your land. You wanna get history involved and really get down to the grit.. ok.
Im gonna guess your white.. guess what, your anscestors stole the land from native americans that lived on the land you are now pissing on with your atv. The land you call yours was taken from the native tribes and drove them onto reservations. Esentially, its their land. It was taken with force. And dont b!tch about the indian hunting rights either, as they were part of the treaty the Government made with them. Dont like it, call a congressman. Only the government can change the treaty.
To answer your question I bet is running through your head is yes, I am Native American. No, I do not have hunting privlages. No, I do not get money every month. I hunt the way the public has to hunt. Not all tribes get government subs. Depends on the treaty.
You say there are too many Wilderness areas in Idaho huh. Your the one that is mistaken. There arent enough. Wonder why the hinting basically just sucks in Idaho? Its a mixture of lack of management, preditors, and too much access by way of moto travel.
Ive read your posts, you talk about saving the game.. wanna know how?
Close off atv trails for hunting, limit tags, and take out coyotes/wolves. Mainly wolves, until the balance is restored. Once it is, gradually increase tags. Still, close off atv travel. But he say, how'm I suppose to hunt and get where i need in the hills?? IDK, walk.
You really want game back? Thats what has to be done. It isnt popular, but its the truth, and you know what, sometimes the truth stings like hell.
 
I readily admit there is no direct connection however do a little research and you will see that all of the big enviro groups get huge grants and tax dollars that they use to buy up private land from timber companies and the like and then slap the gate on and close it to hunting, etc. I know it is not the same as the original topic and the only reason I mention it is that road closures in the name of bull chit reasoning raises my suspicion and worries me.

When I spoke of restricted land use in the name of the owl or other ESA issues I meant indirectly as in the govt. gives huge grants and litigation funding to enviro groups and they in turn buy huge tracts of land that would only be bought by govt. if the enviro group didn't buy it and they can only buy it through us and money supplied in part by the govt.

Don't know how to do the linky thingy but google Feeding at the trough, Eco Organizations. It lists the top 30 or so groups and the money given to them.
It is from the nineties I believe but still significant because I highly doubt it has stopped.

I DO NOT want to see more roads, I DO NOT want to see less wilderness,in fact I would like to see roads removed from many areas in the west, and there are probably areas that should be made into wilderness. I simply like to be told the whole story in cases such as this and would not have even commented had the story read something like "roads closed in heavily roaded area of ID" or even "budget cuts create need for road restrictions and closures".

Google Feeding at the Trough Eco organizations.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
ANOTHER IDIOT !!!! WHERE DO YOU GUYS COME FROM ? LOL...HOPE THERE AREN'T ANY HARD OR HURT FEELINGS. JUST VOICING MY OPINION. HEY DREAMINABOUTHUNTIN YOU NEED TO GET PAST,, THIS IS NOT YOUR LAND B.S. I HAVE FAMILY WHO HAVE LOST LIMB AND LIFE FOR THIS GROUND AND I AM SURE YOU DO AS WELL. THE FACT THAT I WAS BORN ON THIS GROUND MAKES ME A NATIVE AMERICAN. I DON'T HAVE A JACKED UP PEECUP WITH BIG MUD TIRES. LOL...BUT I DO LIKE TO RIDE MY ATV UP ON THE MOUNTAIN. SOME AREAS HAVE TO MANY ROADS AND THEY COULD GET RID OF SOME AND SOME PLACES COULD USE A COUPLE MORE. BUT TO CLOSE A ROAD TO SAVE THE CARIBOU, I AM CALLING B.S. ON THAT. I REALIZE YOUR ANGRY WITH ME FOR TELLING YOUR BUDDY BUZZ HE HAS LOST HIS MARBLES , BUT MY GOD MAN, DID YOU READ HIS B.S.....HE IS AN IDIOT OR HE IS IN THE TREE HUGGIN CLUB..


HEY ,,,THE CAPS ARE ON ONLY BECAUSE I AM A LAZY TYPIER AND I CAN SEE THE BIG LETTERS BETTER....LOL...IT'S ALL GOOD BROTHER...THE OFFERING OF THE PEACE PIPE IS A GOOD THING..SAVE 100 ELK KILL A WOLF.
 
First you call me an idiot, then you say its all good.. so which is it? where in the hell do you get off calling me an idiot. your posts make the case on just who the idiot is. Can you say.. Pineapple?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-12 AT 10:09PM (MST)[p]The point is the USFWS is planning on creating an area for the caribou. This a foot in the door for more areas closed off to motorized access.If anybody believes anything the gov't or enviro groups say remember that when they introduced the wolves in '95 it was a NON ESSENTIAL-EXPERIMENTAL SPECIES slated for control when the population hit the target number.That was somewhere in the early part of the 2000's.It took a literal act of congress to open season on them. The enviros closed logging down in the late 80s early 90s in the name of the spotted owl and come to find out they are falling prey to another owl. A whole regional economy laid to waste. If you don't believe that look at all of the rural counties in Idaho, Oregon and Wshington that once were flourishing now are floundering.I understand that some people don't comprehend that not all of these states aren't Boise,Portland or Seattle. I come from a county that is owned by majority of the federal gov't. There are no taxes paid on federal owned lands to the counties. Schools that are teetering on closures due to loss of logging revenues.As for the back log of roads needing maintenance one convenient fact left out is that timber sales included the road maintenance impacted by the sale. Enviros have made it so expensive that no timber sales come to fruition.All of the sudden the Forest Circus has a list of roads that they can't afford to maintain. Can't maintain them why not close them off. Make no mistake about it there is an agenda to close everything off. Google wildlands project.
 
IT'S ALL GOOD AND YOUR AN IDIOT. DON'T ACT LIKE THAT IS A NEW NAME FOR YOU....LOL... PEACE BROTHER
 
CUSTOMWELD IS RIGHT ON THE $$$$$$$...

YOU 2 GUYS WHO ARE IN THE DARK NEED TO WAKE UP AND GET WITH THE PROGRAM." MY GOD MAN , DO YOU READ WHAT YOU RIGHT.

THIS IS BIGGER THAN CLOSING A ROAD !!!! WAKE UP
 
Where are all the concerned citizens with these types of things are happening?

Have you contacted your legislature and asked them to fully fund the "forest circus" so they can maintain roads? Doubt it.

As far as private organizations buying private lands and closing their lands to hunting, fishing, etc., big deal, its their land.

Do they not have the right to do that? Are you in favor of private property rights or not? Why is it OK for every other private landowner to limit access to their lands, but not OK for an enviro-group to do the same? I can give you a long list of second, third, fourth generation natives of MT, WY, ID, etc. that dont allow any hunting on their lands.

I'm in full support of private property rights, including the right for owners to sell...and organizations and other individuals to buy.

Also, I've yet to see any proof that public lands have been shut down to public hunting because of spotted owls, grizzly bears, old growth, or caribou.

Probably one the best things I've read on a hunting board was posted this year...and appropriate for this thread.

Back country needs to be there for the next generation - of foot soldiers and horsemen who can and will use it - not the whiners who want to slog their sorry asses up into it on a Yamaha.

- Onpoint
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-12 AT 10:32PM (MST)[p] It doesn't matter who we contact the decision was already made a long time ago.You can call me a conspiracy theorist if you want but I believe the the Wildands Project is heading at us full steam.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-12 AT 10:30PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-12 AT 10:30?PM (MST)

Nice...now playing the ever famous victim card.

That will do you a lot of good...keep up the fight! Way to step up!

Congratulations?
 
I have no problem with the wilderness we have now. My family has a cabin on the edge of the Frank. I am certainly not the victim here either. I see the forest circus comment hit a nerve wih you. We don't need anymore closures. Most gates are closed on the 1st of October and I agree with that. This is a ploy by the gov't to close more ground.Earth first we'll log the other planets later.
 
?It should be roadless, existing roads should be closed.
?Human access greatly reduced or eliminated all together: "Many ecologists would just as soon see huge areas of land kept off limits to human activities of any kind."
--Noss, WWF

WATCH WHAT HAPPENS IN 30 YEARS , THESE GROUPS HAVE A PLAN AND IT'S MOVING FORWARD.

CUSTOMWELD YOUR RIGHT ON !!!
 
Nope, forest circus comment is fine with me.

I'm not the one bit ching about road closures on the one hand...and applauding the public land management agencies getting their funding cut for 15 years straight on the other.

I'm good with the road closures, reduces government spending and makes better hunting for those that arent afraid to hike. We need a lot more closures, for a lot of reasons.

The idea of wilderness needs no defense...only more defenders.

-Edward Abbey
 
....and what are you doing about it?

Thats what I thought...NOTHING.

Congratulations?
 
As for the Forest Service being fully funded.They were prior to the late 80s and doing just fine.Then the enviros lawsuits made it so there had to be an EIS before you could take a leak behind your truck.
 
What are you doing about it Buzz? Are you a member of MDF, RMEF? or just a card carrying member of the Sierra Club? How many straw bales have you set after a catastrophic fire or bitterbrush seedlings have you planted. How much time have YOU donated to helping the game populations? I WANT TO SEE NUMBERS
 
Unfortunately the work load hasnt changed...the public is demanding more from the BLM, FS, State, Game and Fish, etc. than ever before. Its not 1980 anymore...its 2012. Things change in 32 years and priorities shift as the public demands it. Which, BTW, ALL U.S. Citizens have a right to direct management of PUBLIC LANDS.

Theres a lot more at stake than a timber sale...and a lot more conflicting interest over whats left of OUR PUBLIC LANDS.

Public lands are not a resource there for simply consumptive uses anymore. Further, it was never intended to be.

If you want changes...and things to go your way...you have to be in the arena...not playing a whining victim. Simply the way it is.
 
Once again,not the whining victim.Just calling it the way I see it.These closures are not to enhance a species survival rate or population increase. Just a quiet,if not methodical way of furthering environmentalists agenda
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-12 AT 11:30PM (MST)[p]Customweld,

To answer your questions...I do plenty.

I'm not a member of the RMEF or the MDF currently, but have been members of both. I'm really thinking about joining the RMEF again, even though I have some problems with some of the things they've done recently.

I'm currently a member or life member of the following:

Boone and Crockett Club, Pope and Young Club, Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, Montana Wildlife Federation, Ravalli County Fish and Wildlife Association, Ducks Unlimted, Hellgate Hunters and Anglers, and Wyoming Wildlife Federation.

I also apply for hunting permits in 6-8 states per year, typically hunt in 3-4 a year. In Montana alone, in the last 11 years, I've paid over $8000 for NR permits. In some States like Nevada, Utah, etc. I've purchased hunting licenses for years and have never even hunted those states (yet). I donate annually to Montanas Block Management Program and Wyomings AccessYes program as well.

I've served on various committees including DU, Montana Wetlands Protection Advisory Council, etc.

Not to mention 25 years of work in Resource Management.

I also have lobbied D.C. and I write several dozen emails, letters, etc. each year on all kinds of wildlife/resource issues.

I dont just talk the talk....
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-12 AT 11:40PM (MST)[p]No bitterbrush seedlings, but I've planted many thousands of willows, Lodgepoles, Ponderosa Pine, White Pine, Spruce, etc.

Planting bitterbrush and willows doesnt fund wildlife management...and doesnt secure much habitat either.

Surely helps, but theres more to it than that.
 
BUZZ , STOP ACTING LIKE YOUR THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS JOINED A CLUB OR PAID FOR A HUNTING LICENSE. STOP ACTING LIKE YOUR THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS PLANTED A TREE. STOP ACTING LIKE YOUR THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS WRITTEN EMAILS, LETTERS, ETC. EACH YEAR ON ALL KINDS OF WILDLIFE/RESOURCE ISSUES. STOP PATTING YOURSELF ON THE BACK SO MUCH AND START WALKING THE WALK.
 
Buzz the land IS theirs NOW but only because they are partially funded by YOU!

If your ok with that then say so, if not, say so!

The USFS in my area has not downsized they have only increased law enforcement officers and they do ZERO road maintainence! So I say cut the funding more and maybe we will finally get what we pay for!

When roads are built in this area it is funded by loggers and when they are maintained here it's by loggers the forest service does not build or maintain roads here, it may be their responsibility and they may SAY they do but I KNOW they don't.

Did you read my suggested web site?

Thanks for your contributions to the foundation and causes mentioned but it means little as long as you keep drinking the koolaid, you are also contributing to the foundations that want to take way your rights as well, not just as slob road hunters.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
Dang that took awhile to read! and now I just got one thing to say! just shoot the damn Caribou, then you guys can have a group HUG
 
>Apparently you buy the talk.How many
>bitterbrush seedlings or saplings have
>you replanted? I want numbers.
>

does it matter if a guy is a supporter with a pocketbook, or his time or does it have to be planting bitterbrush.

you guys are out of control.

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
 
Make sure the closures include access of the equine type. Horses/stock do as much or more damage as motorized travel So keep the horses out too.....






the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
I'd not put much faith in anything written by a real-estate broker who is a member of SFW and appointed through partisan politics.

Just sayin'...

Tony McDermott, of Sagle, is the commissioner representing the Panhandle Region.

Tony is a semi-retired real estate broker who has been living in Sagle since 2000. McDermott received his master's degree in public administration from Central Michigan University. He is a lifetime member of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, the National Rifle Association and the North American Hunting Club. He is also a member of the Idaho Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife.

"I've been an avid outdoorsman all my life" McDermott said "I'm interested in wildlife, interested in outdoor issues, and I'm looking forward to learning and contributing to make things better."
 
>Make sure the closures include access
>of the equine type. Horses/stock
>do as much or more
>damage as motorized travel So
>keep the horses out too.....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
>


Jake, we sure don't agree on much. Been ridein horses in these mountains for 40yrs and I'll betcha you couldn't find one place I went, in the several hundred miles I rode in them last year. LMAO!!!
 
Buzz H,

I thought his editiorial was a good read. Just because a person is or was a member of SFW doesn't make their opinion on a subject wrong.To suggest such a thing seems narrow minded at best.

In the mid 1980's they planted a few caribou (15-25)in North Idaho. They didn't take and had all disappeared by the mid 1990's. In the 20 years I lived in and hunted Area 1 in North Idaho, I saw one caribou. It was a solo bull and was collared. I was a few miles in on foot in deep snow when I saw it. I don't know of anyone else who has seen more than an occasional caribou in that area. The caribou is not endangered (millions in Canada)and the USFWS has yet to show that these animals ever had much of a historical presence south of the border with Canada. Since the planting of the caribou in the mid 1980's there have been significant changes in this area. The grizzly bear numbers are up and the gray wolf has been brought into this area. This area historically also has a tremendous population of black bears. The mountain lion population around Priest Lake is also very large. In my opinion, you could set aside the entire area North of Priest River, Idaho to the Canadian Border from all motorized vehicles and you still will never have a significant population of caribou. Most of the old growth timber has been burned (Sundance Fire, Trapper Creek Fire)or removed from the area. This area has historically had many years of severe winter kill (especially hard on the whitetail deer)with very deep snows.

I think this is a ruse by the USFWS to throw a bone to the various eco-elite groups (DOW, SPBG)and close more of the roads in the area. They have already closed hundreds of miles of roads for the grizzly bear. The Selkirks running on the east side of Priest Lake from Hunt Creek north to Canada are virtually roadless already. I have no objection to road closures. I hunt on foot and did so when I lived in the area. It is my opinion that no matter what the USFWS does(road closures, transplanting animals)the caribou won't gain a hold in this area. It is not habitat they prefer. I just don't care for the time and money wasted for a goal that will never be obtained. Of course, there is nothing the federal government does better than waste money.
 
I JUST DON'T CARE FOR THE TIME AND MONEY WASTED FOR A GOAL THAT WILL NEVER BE OBTAINED. VERY WELL SAID MIGHTYHUNTER... THIS IS A LAND GRAB AND WHEN THEY GET THIS PIECE OF GROUND THEY WILL GO AFTER ANOTHER.
 
Yeah maybe not. In a few years I could prolly find some noxious/invasive weeds sprouting thanks to you and your equine riding counterparts.

Now you'll tell me this doesn't happen....LMAO


I'm not for restricting access anymore than it already is. Quite simply, the rules already in place need to be ******* enforced.....Big time. My experience is USFS won't do jack $hit to discourage the guys who don't wanna follow the rules/ride responsably.

Getting away from the ATV crowd is simple for anyone that want's to. Those guys have ZERO impact on the areas hunt. That goes for the horse guys too who by and large are just as lazy and useless.









the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-12
>AT 03:39?PM (MST)
>
>Jsjackass, Your a idiot.



A remedial english course would do you and your credibility a world of good....You ******* simpleton.





the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-12 AT 12:28PM (MST)[p]No I won't tell you that it dosen't happen, but you're a ******* idiot(your spelling) if you think back packers and hunters that walk in don't spread noxious weeds on their boots, hunting cloths and back packs and you'll need to also include their vehicles and atvs and motorbikes as well. Ya know it's a viscious circle.

I do agree that USFS needs to use the laws that are on the books, I'm not against motorized travel where it is legal but it does piss me off when they're where they're not suppose to be.

As far as ATVs where they're not suppose to be, I can show you places where the erosion from motorbikes and ATVs where they're no suppose to be, is making a new canyon for game to hide in.Hell I've seem Big Horn sheep walk right up there trails, so don't give that #####.

I use horses to pack in small spike camps weeks ahead to several different drainages so that when I "walk" in with a back pack, I don't have to pack food on my back. Lazy, I'll walk any where that you will, then walk down get my horses and pack it out. Packin it out on my back at 50yrs doesn't seem very smart, besides I make part of my livin with horses so its just another good reason to use them.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-12
>AT 12:28?PM (MST)
>
>No I won't tell you that
>it dosen't happen, but you're
>a ******* idiot(your spelling) if
>you think back packers and
>hunters that walk in don't
>spread noxious weeds on their
>boots, hunting cloths and back
>packs and you'll need to
>also include their vehicles and
>atvs and motorbikes as well.
>Ya know it's a viscious
>circle.
>
>I do agree that USFS needs
>to use the laws that
>are on the books, I'm
>not against motorized travel where
>it is legal but it
>does piss me off when
>they're where they're not suppose
>to be.
>
>As far as ATVs where they're
>not suppose to be, I
>can show you places where
>the erosion from motorbikes and
>ATVs where they're no suppose
>to be, is making a
>new canyon for game to
>hide in.Hell I've seem Big
>Horn sheep walk right up
>there trails, so don't give
>that #####.
>
>I use horses to pack in
>small spike camps weeks ahead
>to several different drainages so
>that when I "walk" in
>with a back pack, I
>don't have to pack food
>on my back. Lazy, I'll
>walk any where that you
>will, then walk down get
>my horses and pack it
>out. Packin it out on
>my back at 50yrs doesn't
>seem very smart, besides I
>make part of my livin
>with horses so its just
>another good reason to use
>them.


Point is, It's all cool to restrict everyone else but when your group gets targeted you throw a fit. Thats all I see here. Nope, closure means closure. You keep one group out keep all of them out. Horses, mules,llamas, and goats all do damage/have impact....Walk your ass in. We all get old so thats no excuse, you're just done at that point. Too bad.

Hopefully you're smart enough to see where I'm going with this unlike that other a$$hole the dreamer or whatever.

Keep things open for all. enforce the rules we already have. we don't need to be restricted anymore than we already are. As others have said, this is strictly a landgrab in the guise of "conservation". ******* pathetic.



the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
Speak german.. no? Humm dumb american, yes you are.

Gehen kippe des bumsen sich

Tool..
 
Oh, did you google the word remedial? You big eduacated stud. I forgot to mention your post was not a complete sentence. Let me know if I can be further assistance.
 
Oh, by all means jackassjake please show us your incredible feats of manliness. You make absolutley zero sense. Prove to us all you can see where a horse has walked in the mountains. This reminds me of the Oregon Trail. Jake, what do you still see when viewing the path of the Oregon Trail? Any thoughts? Its the wagon wheel tracks. No hoof prints, no horse poop. Just wagon tracks. Btw, horsemen are to feed weed free hay two days before entering the forest and feed it while there. I do. I know others that do as well.
Why am I explaining this to you. It will go right over your head. Perhaps it's your narcissitic attitude towards everyone that gets you hatered here. Get some humility.
 
Case in point: The dreamer here gets her panties all bunched up when you kick her where it hurts. But she's glad to sling $hit in everyone elses direction.
I won't bother to dignify your delusions with any kind of response.


Hating on me in this chathole might bother me if I gave the tiniest $hit what you thought about anything.

(Just so you're clear, I don't)


It is quite clear, however, that Gemstate is under your skin in a big way. I think now that I've got your goat, I'll tie it up in my backyard and kick it occasionally for my amusement.


the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
Please remember that when you respond me you are addressing an individual of superior intellect.

Also remember who cast the first stone and don't take this $hit too seriously....









the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on the horse deal, you have yours I have mine. I walk my ass plenty of places and enjoy the hell out of it, but as long as the four legged critters are legal options they'll see plenty of use. I see very little damage done with livestock, compared to what I see with motorized vehicles, thus my point of veiw. You are entitled to yours. There are places we hunt I absolutely don't want to see or hear a vehicle, if nothing else but for the wildlifes sake, an I don't give a damn what anyone says!!
 
I agree with you 350. For the most part. I don't want to see closures for anyone. I want the rules we have now (which are adequate IMO) enforced and the guys who tear things up fined/arrested etc.

I don't even own an ATV but I'll go to bat for guys who want to get out and use them (responsibly) for hunting. For the most part these guys are no threat to anyone who really wants to get after it in the backcountry. Guys like you who go in deep should basically never see these guys till you hit the trail again. Thats my experience. They are easy to avoid.


the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-12 AT 08:55PM (MST)[p]Again, they can kiss my butt, I don't ride trails and don't make trails so the impact is nothing!!!
 
Plenty of guys who use motorized vehicles appropriately would say the same thing.

By the "logic" displayed by many in this thread, what YOU do doesn't mean a damn thing. Only those who abuse the privilege matter. The powers that be are too underfunded/indifferent to stop them.

So shut it down for all. It's the only fair answer.





the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
I guess until it changes I'll ride where it's legal and they should also and yes I know it's in my favor!!!

Are you saying foot soldiers also, as they are included in all?
 
>I guess until it changes I'll
>ride where it's legal and
>they should also and yes
>I know it's in my
>favor!!!
>
>Are you saying foot soldiers also,
>as they are included in
>all?


Yeah what the hell. Keep those poor bastards out too...After all, an area where humans tread in any manner can't be a true wilderness now can it?



the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
Yeah, we should put all our faith in unionized federal employees who dream up/create non-existant "problems" to justify their own existance. All on the public dime of course.

I can think of one prtty good way to boost revenue efficiency and it would involve cutting loose some "non-essentails".








the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
https://research.idfg.idaho.gov/wil...eports/2009 Caribou Census South Selkirks.pdf

Here is a recent population census for caribou in Idaho. The findings are real interesting and would seem to contradict what the USFWS is saying. It shows that 3 adult caribou were counted in the State of Idaho. The area where these caribou were spotted is Little Snowy Top. That is a very, very remote location just across the border from BC. This area not easily accessed.
 
GOOGLE--- YUKON 2 YELLOWSTONE Y2Y ...THIS COULD BE THE REAL REASON FOR THE CLOSURE. THE CARIBOU IS JUST A PAWN IN THIS GAME.
 
some ignorant, naive comments on here..stfu if you never lived or experienced that part of the country. If you thinking access and hunting is tough anywhere in the west than you my friend have never stepped foot in NE WA or N ID. By far the hardest terrain to hunt muleys and elk in the west and what logging does for browse in these areas is key! we dont get forest fires or park like openings for elk and deer to feed its heavy timber and there will be no elk or deer in a few short years if this goes in effect. They will move out and be more area that has no real population
 
yeah to that on mining and loggers! its huge up here and small communtities rely HEAVILY on it! I forgot we are on the big city hunter site who thinks he knows all as he sits in his office 500 miles away
 

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