Canada's Health care

3

30inchbuck

Guest
Subject: Canada's Health care system from a Canadian's point of view.

Hey Guys; I saw on the news up here in Canada where Hillary Clinton introduced her new health care plan. Something similar to what we have in Canada. I also heard that Michael Moore was raving about the health care up here in Canada in his latest movie. As your friend and someone who lives with the Canada health care plan I thought I would give you some
facts about this great medical plan that we have in Canada.

First of all:

1) The health care plan in Canada is not free. We pay a premium every month of $96. for Shirley and me to be covered. Sounds great eh. What they don't tell you is how much we pay in taxes to keep the health care system afloat. I am personally in the 55% tax bracket. Yes 55% of my earnings go to taxes. A large portion of that and I am not sure of the exact amount goes directly to health care our #1 expense.

2) I would not classify what we have as a health care plan, it is more like a health diagnosis system. You can get into to see a doctor quick enough so he can tell you "yes indeed you are sick or you need an operation" but now the challenge becomes getting treated or operated on. We have waiting lists out the ying yang some as much as 2 years down the road.

3) Rather than fix what is wrong with you the usual tactic in Canada is to prescribe drugs. Have a pain here is a drug to take---not what is causing the pain and why. No time for checking you out because it is more important to move as many patients thru as possible each hour for Government reimbursement

4) Many Canadians do not have a family Doctor.

5) Don't require emergency treatment as you may wait for hours in the emergency room waiting for treatment.

6) Shirley's dad cut his hand on a power saw a few weeks back and it required that his hand be put in a splint - to our surprise we had to pay $125. for a splint because it is not covered under health care plus we have to pay $60. for each visit for him to check it out each week.

7) Shirley's cousin was diagnosed with a heart blockage. Put on a waiting list . Died before he could get treatment.

8) Government allots so many operations per year. When that is done no more operations, unless you go to your local newspaper and plead your case and embarrass the government then money suddenly appears.

9)The Government takes great pride in telling us how much more they are increasing the funding for health care but waiting lists never get shorter. Government just keeps throwing money at the problem but it never goes away. But they are good at finding new ways to tax us, but they don't call it a tax anymore it is now a user fee.

10) My mother needs an operation for a blockage in her leg but
because she is a smoker they will not do it. Despite her and my father paying into the health care system all these years. My Mom is 80 years of age. Now there is talk that maybe we should not treat fat and obese people either because they are a drain on the health care system. Let me see now, what we
want in Canada is a health care system for healthy people only. That should reduce our health care costs.

11) Forget getting a second opinion, what you see is what you get.

12) I can spend what money I have left after taxes on booze, cigarettes, junk food and anything else that could kill me but I am not allowed by law to spend my money on getting an operation I need because that would be jumping the queue. I must wait my turn except if I am a hockey player or athlete then I can get looked at right away. Go figger. Where else
in the world can you spend money to kill yourself but not allowed to spend money to get healthy.

13) Oh did I mention that immigrants are covered automatically at tax payer expense having never contributed a dollar to the system and pay no premiums.

14) Oh yeah we now give free needles to drug users to try and keep them healthy. Wouldn't want a sickly druggie breaking into your house and stealing your things. But people with diabetes who pay into the health care system have to pay for their needles because it is not covered by the health care system.

I send this out not looking for sympathy but as the election looms in the states you will be hearing more and more about universal health care down there and the advocates will be pointing to Canada. I just want to make sure that you hear the truth about health care up here and have some food for thought and informed questions to ask when broached with this
subject.
 
You guys in Canada need a revolution up there, I know you probably regret not joining us in 1776. Throw out the British like social ideas and go totaly free enterprise.
Or move south below the 49th parallel.
Sorry to hear about the Canadian Health Care Plan, sounds crappy to say the least.


Ransom
 
This is GREAT.

Can I use this on another forum I frequent?

Also what province are you in? Does coverage vary by province?

Nemont
 
>You guys in Canada need a
>revolution up there, I know
>you probably regret not joining
>us in 1776.

Hey now, dont forget they invaded the USA and even lit the whitehouse on fire back in the war of 1812 :p


-DallanC
 
Those bastards, I forgot about that. Well maybe they got what they deserved after all. LOL


Ransom
 
How does a guy from New Mexico know so much about Canadian health care?

I have a outfitter freind in Alberta who's wife just recovered from lung cancer, he always said he liked the system and after his wife's serious problem and her treatment he feels lucky to have what they have. I don't claim to know all there is about the Canadian health care issue but I do know our system sucks. until we can come up with affordable health care for all Americans it seems a little ludicrous to bad mouth anyone elses plan. I'm guessing all of you who laugh at Canada's system don't pay your insurance out of your own pocket? I'm open to any new ideas, something has to change or we have a crisis coming.
 
WOW, THAT OPENED MY EYES A BIT MORE. I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION YALL HAD GREAT HEALTH COVERAGE. I AM COURIOUS AS TO THE 55% TAX BRACKET. IS THAT EVERYBODY OR IS IT BASED ON YOUR INCOME
 
I too am a little taken back by your comments. I thought you folks had good medical coverage, all be it expensive. I pay almost $300.00 per month for me & my wife and that don't count the $20.00 per visit deductible. The "company" claims they contribute another $600.00 per month into my plan, but I find that hard to believe for two people.

At least you can buy aspirin with codeine over the counter 222's
HOORAH!

RUS
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-07 AT 07:22PM (MST)[p]> How does a guy from
>New Mexico know so much
>about Canadian health care?
>
> I have a outfitter freind
>in Alberta who's wife just
>recovered from lung cancer, he
>always said he liked the
>system and after his wife's
>serious problem and her treatment
>he feels lucky to have
>what they have. I don't
>claim to know all there
>is about the Canadian health
>care issue but I do
>know our system sucks. until
>we can come up with
>affordable health care for all
>Americans it seems a little
>ludicrous to bad mouth anyone
>elses plan. I'm guessing all
>of you who laugh at
>Canada's system don't pay your
>insurance out of your own
>pocket? I'm open to any
>new ideas, something has to
>change or we have a
>crisis coming.

Dude

I pay all my own insurance out of my pocket. I certainly don't want to pay for every one elses insurance through higher taxes. I have a better idea for those people who don't have health care. Get a job. If they have a job that doesn't cover them get a better job. In their next life they could stay in school and get a better education which would translate into higher pay with better perks. Now I will really sound like a jerk BUT those who are really obese are a drain on the health care system. Obesity brings with it a lot of health care costs. Do you want to pay for that? I don't. Drug and achohol abusers also have greater health care needs. Don't want to pay for that either. Do I really have to address the illegal alien problem that is also killing our health care system?
We are living in an age of medical break throughs which somebody has to pay for. I'll gladly pay for them, but not the free loaders.


Ransom
 
huntindude is right about one thing. Health care in America is on the brink of disaster. About 6 months ago I took my wife to the emergency room with a bloody nose that wouldn't quit on its own. It cost just under $5000! And on top of that, she had to go to her own doctor the next day to finally get it stopped. I have insurance but still my part was over $1000.

I fought the bill and the care until I finally just gave up and paid it! What a joke!

Eel
 
Jeeze! Over-a-ton, glad you're such a fine specimen. You must look just like Mike Moore! Let's leave alcohol out of this. Define freeloader. Is that the guy that's dying and can't afford to go to the hospital? I totally agree, f'um, they should'a had a better job!

RUS
 
Yes, it's not really about paying for everone else it's about getting the cost down to everyone, us included. if we don't get a handle on this it will bring us down, our industry is already suffering with higher cost than their Asian competetors. we have the most people without insurance of any developed country. I know self employed people without it because they can't afford it, this is insane in todays age in this nation.
 
RUS

Make you mad? Sorry. Maybe a slight bit cranky myself tonight. Freeloader? Anyone who pisses me off, especially tonight. Tomorrow I'll give another definition.
Higher taxes gives me a migraine. I you think your boss is bad, just say you want to raise taxes and I'll show you bad.


Ransom, rhymes with handsome
 
RUS

I'm taking a chance with your wrath because of the cut n paste but here's a federal spending chart. Looking closely at it should show you what a freeloader is. If not check social spending.
I do agree we need to get costs down and at affordable rates but not at the risk of using European/ Canadian systems.


Ransom

470449cb4681ce5b.jpg
 
Handsome - Ransom, forget the cut & paste! We want to see boobies!!!!

Seriously, healthcare ought to be the front runner in '08 debates. It impacts us all. I observed a HMO hospital tag & bag a very ill patient one time just cause they didn't want the hassel of dealing with a death on the floor. Tag & bag is a term for "get them outta here before they croak".

RUS
 
RUS

Yes it does need to at the forfront of concerns in 08 election, just I don't want to pay for somebody elses health care. I'm selfish. I like to keep my money for my own families needs not somebody elses. I give plenty in tithes and charitable needs. I want it to be my choice not some Washington clowns.
No boobies, crap I swore off bikinis for crying out loud, I forgot about the kids that visit this site.
On a brighter note I leave monday with my brother for Idaho and Wyoming deer hunts.


Ransom

47045523736db759.jpg
 
Ransom, good hunting for you and your bro. We expect full coverage when you get back.

(if you happen to get pictures of naked chicks on your way ... just PM me .. don't want to corrupt the youngsters)

RUS
 
I pay 800 bucks a month for health care insurance for my wife and I. I grumble about it at times, but I would never change it for the health care program in Canada. I spent a week in Victoria while on vacation last year.
while there I talked to 5-6 Canadians about their program. Everyone of them stated that they are being taxed in the 50% bracket to pay for the health care. Everyone of them also stated that you may have a wait of several months or longer for any surgery that is deemed not life threating.
Waiting lines at clinics or emergency care are very long before you see anyone to care for you.
Yea! leave it up to a lying clinton to snowball you about your health care and the great thing she will do for you and your family. As for myself, I do not want the system that Canada has. Their system would cost me 3,000.00 a month at 50% and I would have to wait to see my family doctor or get a room in a hospital.
RELH
 
50% ? that's not that bad if it's an upper bracket. add the state and fed taxes, along with all the other taxes we pay and don't take into account and many of us are around that mark. for that we have no help on health care, and the country is racking up debt like crazy. maybe we'ld be at 60% if we were paying our bills, and still no health care . are there any Canadians around here to give us their two cents worth? I don't mean propaganda cut and pastes I mean actual opinions from a Canadian.
 
Dude;

It's not a upper bracket for rich folks. It's every working person. Some of the people I talked too were in jobs making only 30,000 a year, or less.
There was a survey just recently done by a American group that uncovered alot of facts that may surprise you on the Canadian health care program. It supports the information given in the first post and what I heard from the people I talked too. Try doing a web search and you might locate it. I can not remember who the group was that conducted the research.
Their final opinion was that we need to look elsewhere for a solution to our health care problem and not use the system that is in use in Canada.

RELH
 
>Ransom, good hunting for you and
>your bro. We expect full
>coverage when you get back.
>
>
> (if you happen to get
>pictures of naked chicks on
>your way ... just PM
>me .. don't want to
>corrupt the youngsters)
>
>RUS

RUS

Will try to get you photos. The weather is turning cold though, not conducive to "good photos".
After Idaho and Wyoming I go back to Kona for 2 weeks of marlin fishing and sun. Too bad marlin's don't have antlers.

Ransom
 
Goverment controlled anything is bad.

Want to decrease medical costs.

Tort reform act
Stop giving free medical to illegals
Cut down the insurance fraud


Goverment Health Care will have the following

Cost everyone more!
Provide less services
Less advacement/research


We in the US have the best medical doctors in the world. We have the best researchers. Want to know why? Because it is a free market. The better you are in your field - the more money you make.

Turn it into a goverment controlled program - Are you stupid or smoking the wacky weed?
 
Canada may not have the answer, all I have to go on is the opinion of a few people who live there but that doesn't mean all Canadians agree. but at least they're trying.

We know something has to be done, GM says it cost them $1600 per vehicle for health benifits, figure about that percentage on every US made product we buy. how can we expect US companies to compete ? with the baby boom generation getting older the demand for health services will only increase, will operations be sold on ebay? what will insurance premiums go to? will your employer be able to afford it or will you? there are some places where supply and demand doesn't work, life is always in demand and money is always in short supply. we can't say our system is broke, we don't have one.
 
Dude

I disagree, what a surprise. We do have a system. It's broken because of a myriad of reasons and I think you know what most are. I'm not against fixing it. I just don't want to pay for myself and many others too, just myself. Selfish? I don't think so, just frustrated that others want my money.

Ransom
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-07 AT 10:03AM (MST)[p]Actually we don't have a "health Care" crisis what we have is a health care financing crisis.

I could show you imperical evidence that per 1,000 Americans have access to more and better health care then our European and Asian Counterparts. We have better access to MRI's, Bypass Surgeries, Rx Drugs, Cardiac Care, Burn Therapies etc etc.

There are more MRI machines in the State of Montana to serve a population of 900,000 then there are in Canada to serve a population of 25 million.

Our system is in crisis because Americans believe that there is an unlimited amount of Healthcare out there but do not want to pick up the tab.

In addition through Medicaid, Medicare, Tri Care, Indian Health Service and other goverment programs the government is already paying about 52% of all health care spending. The problem is that programs like Medicaid and Medicare want to use 50% of the care but only pay about 60 cents on the dollar of charges.

I don't know how anyone can truthfully argue that going to a single payer goverment system would improve cost, quality and eventually access, government will begin to ration healthcare. Look at what Indian Health Service does when someone needs a high dollar surgery, they wait until money is available to pay the claim. You can need heart bypass surgery but if money for Contract Health is not available to bad.

Do you really want the people who brought you Hurricane Katrina relief in charge of your health care?

Nemont
 
Dude made a very telling comment on one MAJOR reason I don't buy his, "I am a moderate" nonsense. He stated, "Canada may not have the answer, but at least they're trying." As long as the intention is 'noble' who cares about the results, right? Canada's healthcare is a nightmare, much worse than what we have here, but "at least they are trying"!

30inchbuck nailed it as did Nemont when he asked if we want the people who handled Katrina in charge of our day to day healthcare? I sure don't. EVERY time the government is over ANYTHING, effeciency is non-existant and waste is rampant.

PRO
 
PRO/ 30inch/Newmont

I AGREE! You guys said what I should have said but I was thinking in the terms of my wallet. It's a bad habit I have, being selfish with my money that is.


Ransom
 
You make it sound as if ALL Canadians are unhappy, I know for a fact some of them are thankful for their system. I know some Americans broke off thier butts who are unhappy with our lack of a system.

Maybe schools should be on supply and demand? rich kids get educated and poor kids can work at the school. I don't have kids why should I pay for anyones education? a kid has the right to a public education but not health care? good one.


The cost of health care is out of control, no way around it, it's going to drag us down. I can afford insurance and while I've never needed it I can afford any and all services I may need. so that means I shouldn't give a crap about anyone else huh? wow, we have that problem solved. bring on the next one.
 
Privitize schools - hell yes!

The voucher program would be the best thing for the US schools system. Open it up to a free market and bingo - competition will result in an overall improved eductation system.



No all the freeloading canadians are very happy - not do anything while everyone else pays for there health care, food, housing ect. I am saying that all hard working - blue or white collar canadians are unhappy about the "Canadian Health Care System"
 
Voucher? am I still expected to pay for the voucher? if so it still sounds like I'm paying for someone else. I though that's what we're against?
 
HD,
I am not wading into school funding. I will wade into health care funding. The last time the Goverment "helped" during the Clinton administration they passed a law called the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). This Act impose HUGE administrative costs not only on Health Insurers but also Health Providers. It has led to many, many costly and time consuming lawsuits, privacy issues, enforcement problems and compliance problems: all of which have cost the consumers dearly.

Part of the reason the cost of Health care is increasing is because of costly and excessive over regulation at the Federal Level.

Many good reforms are left upon the shelf because I believe that Washington wants to control health care. It has nothing to do with wanting to provide coverage but rather it has to do with money. Health Care spending respresents about 17% of our GDP. There is simply too much money floating around the system for Polticians not to want to get their hands upon.

Why should the rich or poor care if we go to a single payer system? It would affect neither, wealthy will get the best care regardless and the poor don't pay taxes. It will fall on the middle class to foot the entire bill. With Globalization the wealthy can move their incomes and assets offshore wit ease. The poor have not incentive to not demand free access to health care.

If you think our health care system is expensive now wait until it is "free" without any fiscal reason for restraining health care consumption.

I guess I will make good on that promise to move out of the U.S. once the government takes over the health care industry. It will be no different then any other socialist country. We will end up like France.

Nemont
 
>HD,
>I am not wading into school
>funding. I will wade
>into health care funding.
>The last time the Goverment
>"helped" during the Clinton administration
>they passed a law called
>the Health Insurance Portability and
>Accountability Act (HIPAA). This
>Act impose HUGE administrative costs
>not only on Health Insurers
>but also Health Providers.
>It has led to many,
>many costly and time consuming
>lawsuits, privacy issues, enforcement problems
>and compliance problems: all of
>which have cost the consumers
>dearly.
>
>Part of the reason the cost
>of Health care is increasing
>is because of costly and
>excessive over regulation at the
>Federal Level.
>
>Many good reforms are left upon
>the shelf because I believe
>that Washington wants to control
>health care. It has
>nothing to do with wanting
>to provide coverage but rather
>it has to do with
>money. Health Care spending
>respresents about 17% of our
>GDP. There is simply
>too much money floating around
>the system for Polticians not
>to want to get their
>hands upon.
>
>Why should the rich or poor
>care if we go to
>a single payer system?
>It would affect neither, wealthy
>will get the best care
>regardless and the poor don't
>pay taxes. It will
>fall on the middle class
>to foot the entire bill.
> With Globalization the wealthy
>can move their incomes and
>assets offshore wit ease.
>The poor have not incentive
>to not demand free access
>to health care.
>
>If you think our health care
>system is expensive now wait
>until it is "free" without
>any fiscal reason for restraining
>health care consumption.
>
>I guess I will make good
>on that promise to move
>out of the U.S. once
>the government takes over the
>health care industry. It
>will be no different then
>any other socialist country.
>We will end up like
>France.
>
>Nemont

Bravo! Excellent post.

PRO
 
Dude

I care too. Just not in the same way you do. I want people to be responsible for themselves. Here is what I mean at the expense of sounding like a jerk again. Habitually lazy people who would rather do just about anything else BUT improve their lot in life are my main gripe. Let them help themselves. I think our social experiments have shown the results of why the federal gov. shouldn't be their nursemaids. Another group like I said in my earlier post are obese people who tax the system greatly. Also drug and alcholol abusers use a greater amount of care. Unless the person is mentally ill these are personal choices. Why do you think I must pay for them? Don't get me going on the illegals, you all know my thoughts there.
We do live in a time of great advances in medical technology/ medicines. Someone has to pay for those. This expense is something everyone should pay for since everyone benifits from the advances.
On another note a couple of us here at MM would be willing to help you move to Canada if you want. LOL

Ransom
 
You won't talk about public funding of education because it shows public funding can work, staying alive is almost as important as learning to read ? maybe not, I don't know.

I'm not all for public funding of health care, I pay WAY more taxes than I like as it is. all I'm saying is something has to be done . everything should be on the table, getting cost down is the first step, whatever it takes.

If cost keep going up even those of us who think we have the means to take care of ourselves could end up in a tight spot, now that's when it gets serious right? kind like my dad used to say, " when you're out of work it's a recession, when I'm out of work it's a depression"
 
> You won't talk about public
>funding of education because it
>shows public funding can work,
>staying alive is almost as
>important as learning to read
>? maybe not, I don't
>know.
>
> I'm not all for public
>funding of health care, I
>pay WAY more taxes than
>I like as it is.
>all I'm saying is something
>has to be done .
>everything should be on the
>table, getting cost down is
>the first step, whatever it
>takes.
>
> If cost keep going up
>even those of us who
>think we have the means
>to take care of ourselves
>could end up in a
>tight spot, now that's when
>it gets serious right?
>kind like my dad used
>to say, " when you're
>out of work it's a
>recession, when I'm out of
>work it's a depression"

Dude

Surprise again I do agree with some of your post though not all. Then we agree on taxes? Seems so. I would venture having almost everything on the table with the exeption of socialized health care. Don't totally agree with you on public education which works but not real well. Private education seems to work better but at the expense of the underclass, maybe the underclass could read between the lines? Why is being poor made out to be close to a virtue now adays? That might be sound cruel but it ridiculous how the media points to the achiever as somehow at fault.
Your dads quote is great and made me pause but I recovered and I'm still a jerk.


Ransom
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-07 AT 12:40PM (MST)[p]> You won't talk about public
>funding of education because it
>shows public funding can work,
>staying alive is almost as
>important as learning to read
>? maybe not, I don't
>know.
>
No I am not afraid to say our schools suck and that public funding of education is at best another taxpayer funded means of tearing our country apart through liberal brainwashing of our children. If you wish to debate that start another thread.

I wanted to keep this one about health care. I don't know anyone who does not think the current health care financing system is broke. I work in the industry and see it every day. If you think the government can efficiently run 17% of a $13 trillion economy you are not a very true fiscal conservative.

Name something that the government takes over that is as effecient in as the private sector. How come people lived for over 200 years without government paid health insurance? How could anyone survive?

There are some simple and fairly straight forward reforms that could be enacted. Transparency of costs would be one thing. Imagine if we bought vehicles the same way we buy health care. I will take that vehicle right there and oh yeah send me the bill in a couple of months. Make doctors and hospitals publish their costs on a menu just to show the patient.

Get rid of a lot of duplication in the regulations. Either allow the States to be the regulatory arm or the Federal government but not both. End coverage mandates. Mandated coverages cost everyone.

Allow insurers to pool all claims over $100K or $200K or pick a number into a larger reinsurance pool.

There are lot's and lot's of things that could bring down the cost of health care. Just nobody truly wants cheaper health care they want the same health care at a cheaper price. Two mutually exclusive things.

Nobody has yet to explain to me how increasing the number covered by the government reigns in costs plus keeps access to and delivery of services the same. You willing to stand in line to have have life saving surgery? Most Americans aren't.

Also does anyone know somebody, personally, who has been refused life saving services because of a lack of the ability to pay?

Nemont
 
Also does anyone know somebody personally who has been refused life saving services because of a lack of the ability to pay?

Newmont

Be careful, they'll make up a person or two who did die. And it will be our fault and socialized medicine would have saved them.

Ransom
 
You think I'm a kinder persom than I am. I'm no philanthropist what so ever, I give to conservation organizations pretty generously but little or nothing to humanitarian organizations. I think non working welfare bums are a waste of oxygen, I have no sympathy for them and that's one reason I don't give, for fear they may be helped.

My concern is the working poor, doing the best they can. I've seen this first hand, several times, people getting divorced to save their home, being busted down to homeless, there's no excuse for this in what's supposed to be the greatest nation on earth . most low paying jobs don't include insurance and those people can't afford it. who are you fooling? we're picking up their tab already, why destroy them?

There are ways of cutting cost, most of which don't make big business happy. something must be done, it's hurting all of us one way or another. you can preach the paddle your own canoe bit all you like, health care is the #2 issue on voters mind today. something is going to happen, lets hope it's done right.
 
Dude

I want the best for those people also. I just think that they should improve their own lot in life. Why are they poor? Many reasons as we all know. Those that are lazy I think kind of how you do but stop just short of it, I'll let them have a small amount of oxygen. High school dropouts with low paying jobs don't get much sympathy from me either.
Yet there are those who at no fault of their own are poor and need help. Certainly don't have a problem there.
Social programs are notorious for abuse as you know so we should be very careful of what we want.
Still thinking about moving to Canada?


Ransom
 
>lets hope it's done right.


Chances are it won't be done right and it will just one more nail in the coffin of this country. The Taxpayer cannot afford another entitlement program of this magnitude pure and simply.

The Iraq war cost will end, the costs for the War on Terror will enventually end but a single payer health care system ran by the government will cost us TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS of dollars forever.

With off book deficits approaching $75 Trillion the American political leaders are writing checks the American Economy cannot cover. Now you want to add Trillions more?

Nemont
 
I like Canada, I can't say I'm ready to move there but I wouldn't have problem with it.

Some of the working poor are good people who just haven't had a break in life, or had bad breaks. some of them are good people who honestly just aren't rocket scientist, but they do the best they can.

Then there's those who have insurance but it eats up a major portion of their income, maybe they wouldn't be poor if they weren't paying $800 a month. I didn't say I have the answers , but you can't begin to fix something you won't admit needs fixing.
 
> You think I'm a kinder
>persom than I am. I'm
>no philanthropist what so ever,
>I give to conservation organizations
>pretty generously but little or
>nothing to humanitarian organizations.
>I think non working welfare
>bums are a waste of
>oxygen, I have no sympathy
>for them and that's one
>reason I don't give, for
>fear they may be helped.
>
>
> My concern is the working
>poor, doing the best they
>can. I've seen this first
>hand, several times, people getting
>divorced to save their home,
>being busted down to homeless,
>there's no excuse for this
>in what's supposed to be
>the greatest nation on earth
>. most low paying jobs
>don't include insurance and those
>people can't afford it. who
>are you fooling? we're picking
>up their tab already, why
>destroy them?
>
> There are ways of cutting
>cost, most of which don't
>make big business happy.
>something must be done, it's
>hurting all of us one
>way or another. you can
>preach the paddle your own
>canoe bit all you like,
>health care is the #2
>issue on voters mind today.
>something is going to happen,
>lets hope it's done right.
>

Bravo Dude! That's exactly the issue! If you're wealthy in America, our system is not broke. If you're a working stiff with a good health insurance perk, you're OK too, as long as your job holds up. If you're on welfare, you're covered.

Please don't tell everybody to get a job with health insurance benefits, it's not doable. We've spent years trying to break the Unions and do away with as many benefits as possible. And it's working very well. American businesses know how to pull that off. When a hard working person loses everything he has when a medical crisis happens, something is wrong, and it needs fixing. Government by itself is not the answer for sure, but some kind of intervention is a must, in my opinion.

$900 a month for health insurance for a retired blue collar worker couple is insane. That can mean the difference between Alpo and hamburger, for crying out loud!:)

Eel
 
That horse has left the barn, medicare is broke. do we just tell all retirees sorry about your luck? we have to do something, I doubt most doctors will trade their Hummers for Yugos and take the pay cut, and the drug companies won't give drugs as gifts so what's your idea? send them out on the ice flow? we promised more than we can deliver already, sitting on our thumbs is not an option. then there's the problem of increased cost to the rest of us, beyond some peoples means, it has to have limits at some point.

As I said I don't have the answers, but I'll admit we have to do something.
 
Eel

I think your slipping over to the dark side. Come back. There are private solutions. Please listen to my newfound friend Newmont.


Ransom
 
I have a question Eel and Huntidude regarding the costs of premium. What should it cost? Why is $900 a month for a couple of retired too much? What if the retired couple is using $1,500 a month worth of medical care and Rx drugs? What would be the right rate then?

Why is you think only the U.S. is struggling with the cost of Health Care? All Western industrialize countries are struggling with what medical care costs.

Japan
http://www.japan-press.co.jp/2543/welfare.html

Germany
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,425036,00.html

As just two examples. Nearly every country that offers Universal Care is either increasing taxes to an almost crushing level, like our Canadian example 55% or reducing benefits or both. Some are looking at going to a dual system of private and public funding.

There is no free lunch in this world and no such thing as free health care. There is no constitutional basis for such a plan. If you don't like to pay $900 a month then don't and go bare. All hospitals who accept federal funds are require to treat you.

I don't like paying for my family $855 a month for all five of us but it keep the wife a little happier and gives her peace of mind. I could really use the $10,260 to put towards a great Sheep hunt in Alaska but I have made a choice to pay it.

It is not going to be better or cheaper if the government takes it over. So HD if you dislike taxes but want Univeral care you are kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth. You are going to have to pick your which you prefer.

Nemont
 
> You have to watch Nemont,
>he bats about 50%.


I just enjoy stirring people up so easily. I can argue it round or I can argue it flat. People who think they are died in the wool conservatives often make statements that prove they are not. And people who think they are died in the wool liberals often prove they are not.

Doesn't matter to me. I am more of a middle of the road guy. I make up my own mind what I believe.

On Health Care financing I know what I believe as I work with it every day. Universal care isn't the answer reducing Goverments grip on health care is.

Nemont
 
Nemont, $900 a month is a fair cost in todays world. I mean if the hospital is going to charge $5000 to stop a nose bleed, and $12 for an Advil tablet, the insurance companies have to charge that much. I guess it's the fair market thing. Supply and demand. I'm stuck with paying it.

Eel
 
Eel

Good to have you back. We should all work on getting costs under control. Let the feds bark and bay all they want but not pass any new laws unless its to reinvigorate the private sector.

Newmont

Thanks for coming through with your posts, maybe we'll pull Dude into our camp on this one.


Ransom
 
AS I said I don't have the answers I just know status quo isn't going to cut it. not being able to buy a new Hummer or flat screen is one thing. not be able to live is another, even I have that much of a sense of responsibility to help my fellow American. I don't think universal health care is the way to go, I don't think supply and demand is either ethical or practical.

You say you don't like paying your insurance, what if you couldn't? what if the number of people who can't pay reaches the point you have to pay $2000 a month? it could happen. just because we can afford it now doesn't mean those who can't are bums, plus some twist of fate may land us in that position some day.

If I had nothing I'd go un insured as you say, while I could afford to pay for whatever medical attention I may need I'm not willing to take that kind of hit. so I pay my insurance, but in time that may become a real hit in itself.
 
Ransom, the government is one of the big problems in health care, if you ask me. Over regulation, allowing frivelous (sp) lawsuits, and "free" health care for illegals. All contribute to the high costs. Malpractice insurance is driving many doctors out of California, BTW.

All Dude and I are saying is that it's screwed up and needs to be fixed. I won't hold my breath waiting for Congress (which is made up mostly of lawyers) to fix it.

Eel
 
Eel


Looks like we are actually on the same page.


Dude

Do you worry about the snail darter too?


Ransom
 
Our Government was created to protect us from other Governments. The more they get involved in social issues the worse it gets.
Now we have a system that is failing but none of our power hungry elected officials will attack it because they will lose their position.
So the answer will be to increase our taxes to pay for everyone else. Socialism is a slippery slope......
 
>Our Government was created to protect
>us from other Governments.
>The more they get involved
>in social issues the worse
>it gets.
>Now we have a system that
>is failing but none of
>our power hungry elected officials
>will attack it because they
>will lose their position.
>So the answer will be to
>increase our taxes to pay
>for everyone else. Socialism
>is a slippery slope......

Hooked

I've been trying to tell Dude that but it's useless. Have you ever wrestled with a pig in the mud? Well after awhile you realize they enjoy it.

Ransom
 
Whats so scary about socialized medicine when 50% of the rest of our life is already socialized? are our schools all private? are all roads toll roads or mostly public ? why have any public land? that sounds socialist to me. there is no reason medical care should be off limits to some form of government control unless everthing else is.

Again I'm not saying socialized medicine is the way to go , but don't act like it would be the first step to socialism. if you believe that you're already too late.
 
No one has said socialized medicine is the 1st step. But it is another step in that direction. I want to change the direction or at the very least not take that step.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-07 AT 09:32AM (MST)[p]For me is the History the Government has of completely and utterly missing the estimate of the true of cost of entitlements such as medicare.

By 2010 medicare alone will eat up 8.8% of our GDP. By 2030 it will be 11.3% of our GDP. If the economy grows even at a modest 2% over those years that means the economy would have expanded to roughly $24 Trillion dollars and Medicare would take up $2.72 TRILLION by itself. If you expand coverage to univeral coverage it is projected to cost 26% of our GDP. That percentage is simply unsustainable.

There is a lot of empirical evidence that shows once an single piece of the economy, driven by non market forces reaches 20% of that economy, then economy will collapse. USSR and military spending once it reached 20% of the GDP the remaining economic output could not sustain the cost. Great Britain, Rome, Spain all the great world powers were brought to there knees when their economies became overtaxed by government misallocation of resources. Almost all were collapsed with the 20% ratio.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=3521&type=0

In addition governments, throughout the world, do a poor job of allocating resources. Rural areas will suffer as will inner cities. Governments tend not to invest in the latest technology and often make decision based upon the political cost of providing or withholding care. Read up on Japans proposal for people over age 75.

In order to control costs reimbursements will either be reduced or procedures will be denied. Doctors will make less money and fewer of the best and brightest will choose a field that limits their incomes.

I find it interesting that the same group that opposes saddling their kids and grand kids with the cost of the Iraq War, which though expensive, is limited and will end. At these same people have no problem shoving a hugely expanded and expensive program without an end down the same kids and grand kids throats.

HD, I just wish you would explain to me in simply terms how Socialized medicine will make care cheaper and keep access the same because that is what the Politicians are saying. Nobody has yet to answer that question even when I email to Hillary and Romney and other candidates. All I get back is the form to send more money and thanking me for the support.

Nemont
 
I see your point and I agree, what I don't agree with is the assumption nothing can be done to bring down or at least hold prices to levels people can afford.

So we agree taxing people to pay other peoples bills isn't the answer, but we have to do something. if you say they'll get treated anyway then who pays for that? we do. so one way or another we pay, how is it any different? you pay it in taxes or you pay it in premiums. why should a bloody nose cost $5000 ? why when my wife got bonked on the head last summer did it cost $2800 to tell her to go home and take it easy? I figured it out and it cost $1120 an hour to tell her she's OK, thats absurd . in the end I still say whatever it takes to reduce cost is the only answer, and no I don't know how to do that.
 
Have you read anything I have posted. I have laid out several things that would reduce the cost of providing care. Please find one reference where I have said nothing should be done. Trust me nobody has an easy answer to this problem if they did they would be extremely wealthy.

How much of that $1,120 an hour went to comply with HIPAA, TEFRA, OBRA, ERISA plus State Regulations? How much went to overhead such as Malpractice insurance rates, and the constant remodeling and expansion of the facility? I guess the question is how much actually went to pay for actual care and how much went to keep the Federal Government happy.

The difference currently is that the system is somewhat voluntary and I have a finacial reason not to run to the hospital every time one of my kids sneezes.
When it is "free" what incentive is in place to not use the care?

Also how much would your wife's bonk on the head cost if instead of the $2,800 you were taxed an additional 17% flat tax on your income to pay for universal care? I bet that 17% equals far more then $2,800.

17% is the project tax rate on income needed to pay for Universal care.

Nemont
 
For the 100th time I never said I was for universal health care. you blame the government for running the cost as high as it is today, true in part but a lame excuse for the whole problem. there will always be oversight on medical care, there is on everthing so the industry will have to live with it.

A Free Man approach to medical care isn't the answer. lots of people are getting rich off health care, it's the American way I understand that. but there are times where money can't be the sole factor, this is one. in the early 70's Nixon banned exports of wheat from the US, he said the price was too high and we needed that supply for Americans, so the price dropped like a rock. why is it Americans are safeguarded from a high prices on their Wheaties but health care is supply and demand? isn't heath care a matter of life and death? don't say it's out of our control. this may not be the best comparison because health care is a service rather than a commodity but it is relevant. the government can do something, train and create an over supply of doctors and nurses who work their education off?, yes I know this goes on but I'm talking in quantity. give tax breaks to drug and equipment manfacturers ? finance competition? as I said I don't have all the answers but it's clear niether do you.
 
Dude

Something scary is going on lately. I'm starting to agree with you on some points. May be I got bonked on the head? Anyway I do agree that something needs to be done. I don't want to pay more than I do now is the problemo. Along with that I don't want some 20 something year old wet nosed bureaucrat telling me when, where and how I will be treated for ailments. I think you can see my point.
By the way I wasn't calling you a pig earlier. Thats just an old saying about arguing.


Ransom
 
HD,

I have never said I have the answers. Again if I did money wouldn't be an issue for me because I would be reaping million if not billions for solving a $2.5 trillion dollar problem.

I think a complete overhaul of the entire systme is in order.

Starting with a review of current regulations, reduction in lawsuits, getting doctors back into the business of dispensing medical care, pick something I am for it.

I am involved with the Montana program called Insure Montana that is subsidized by the Tobacco Settlement money to bring health insurance to previously unisured. It is designed for employers with 2-9 employees who have not offered health insurance in the previous 2 years. So far, in just two years, over 1,550 new business are purchasing insurance for their employees and there are over 10,000 covered lives in the program. For state is as small of a population as Montana that is signficant.

While I don't have all the answers I am working daily on behalf of my fellow Montanan's to attempt to help them finance their health care in an affordable way.

Since you are so much higher and mightier what are you doing?

Nemont
 
Where did I say I was higher and mightier? like everyone else on here I'm most concerned about myself, never said that was a noble cause. I said niether one of us had the answers, bravo for admitting it, now we're back to where we started.
 
Newmont

You just stumbled into the answer. Lets have the smokers pay for health care. I'm only partially kidding about this. In this day and age no one really has an excuse for smoking. EVERYONE knows it is harmful to smoke and that smokers tax the health care system greater than nonsmokers.
I'm also in favor of Dude picking up the balance of costs.


Ransom
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-07 AT 11:52AM (MST)[p]> Where did I say I
>was higher and mightier? like
>everyone else on here I'm
>most concerned about myself, never
>said that was a noble
>cause. I said niether one
>of us had the answers,
>bravo for admitting it, now
>we're back to where we
>started.


I knew that little swipe would get a response. If you don't have an answer then how can you say public financing is better. Public financing of our schools has led to only 75% graduation rates and our continues slide in educational achievement versus the rest of the world. I think the U.S. now ranks somewhere around 21st or 22nd in the world in student aptitude. So public financing of schools has not led to stellar results as you claim and it will not lead to stellar results in Health Care either.

I am finished now with this thread wasted too much time on people uninterested in listening.

Nemont
 
Since I won't listen to your lack of an answer to this I'm the one not learning anything? Touche.
 
Dude

You must mean Newmont because I had two answers, you and smokers both pay. I like these ideas.


Ransom
 
> Since I won't listen to
>your lack of an answer
>to this I'm the one
>not learning anything? Touche.


I wasn't talking about you. A little touchy are we?

Nemont
 
Maybe I am a little, the more I think about issues like this and the fact I don't have a solution the more frustrated I get. as if I could do anything about it anyway. nothing personal towards you.
 
All I know is, if a deer tag cost $25,000 but was free to illegal aliens and drug addicts, the only three groups of people not complaining would be the rich and the illegal aliens and drug addicts. Which is what we have with health care in America.
 
Eel

After reading your post about the 3 groups who could get tags, I want to be one of the rich ones. Being illegal and or doing drugs sounds crappy.


Ransom
 

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