J
JCRASH
Guest
Just wondering if a non-resident can draw a Region H tag on a second choice through the special draw with (5) points. Not sure if you have to have max points (7) to draw a second choice in the special draw.
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-13 AT 09:33AM (MST)[p]Last year there were only 129 tags left for the random draw after the other draws were held and there were 381 first choice applicants for those licenses. Therefore, only 1 in 3 of them would have drawn a tag and it wouldn't even have gotten close for the second choice applicants to get a tag. To draw a tag as a second choice you need to look at the random draw and if there are more first choice applicants than tags in that draw it will never get to the second choice applicants. If there are more tags than first choice applicants, then they go to the second choice applicants and draw them at random for the remaining tags and it doesn't matter how many PPs you had in the first draw you put in for since it truly is a random draw.
>@Topgun. The original post was referring
>to the special draw, not
>the regular draw.
Yes, I understood the OP! What I stated are the facts of the draws and it was in reference to his question about the special draw. If there are no tags left after everyone has an opportunity at their first choice at a unit, then there are no tags left for anyone as a second or third choice. Even if a guy puts in more money he still can't draw a tag on his second choice if there are none available.
>to the special draw, not
>the regular draw.
Yes, I understood the OP! What I stated are the facts of the draws and it was in reference to his question about the special draw. If there are no tags left after everyone has an opportunity at their first choice at a unit, then there are no tags left for anyone as a second or third choice. Even if a guy puts in more money he still can't draw a tag on his second choice if there are none available.
MaineFlatlander
Active Member
- Messages
- 318
Points don't count towards a second choice. Last year 240 tags were available in the preference point draw for NR Special. Only 202 people applied for a tag meaning they all drew out even with zero points leaving 38 tags unclaimed. 79 tags were available for the random draw but since everyone had already drawn tags all of these tags went to second choice applicants. A total of 113 people put H as a second choice but some of them may have drawn their first choice and therefore not in this draw. The odds are pretty good that most if not all of the people putting H Special as a second choice drew last year.
J
JCRASH
Guest
Thank you Maine. I had found the number statistics you listed and could not figure out where the 38 tags went. My partner and I have max points (7) and have hunted Region H as a second choice for the last four years. Since unit 82 is no longer available for draw, my partner and I are concerned that we will draw our first choice. I think we are going to take a kid with us this year that has (1) point. This will give us a (5) point average save our max points for down the road.
nripepi
Very Active Member
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- 2,170
My understanding is that if there are 1st choice applicants in the cheaper fee, they trump the 2nd choice applicants in special fee class. Those tags will actually move from the special to regular draw. Pretty dumb on the part of Wyoming, it only costs them about the same amount of money they would make from raising fees!
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-13 AT 11:37PM (MST)[p]
>My understanding is that if there
>are 1st choice applicants in
>the cheaper fee, they trump
>the 2nd choice applicants in
>special fee class. Those
>tags will actually move from
>the special to regular draw.
> Pretty dumb on the
>part of Wyoming, it only
>costs them about the same
>amount of money they would
>make from raising fees!
2nd choice never trumps 1st choice, regardless of the draw.
The special draw is a completely separate draw from the random draw. The tags are allocated to the Special draw, PP and Random, then drawn.
Remaining Special PP tags go to the Regular PP allocation. Remaining Special RD tags go to the Regular RD allocation.
After the Special draw, they move to the Regular draw with the updated allocations, should there be any pass thru tags.
PP tags never become Random tags.
When asking the draw dept for clarification a cpl years ago, we used unit 22 type 4, 2011 allocations and draw odds.
50 tags total
8 going to NR
40% going to special, split 75/25 PP/RD (3/1)
60% going to regular, split 75/25 pp/rd (3/1)
3 sp pp tags not drawn
1 sp rd tag not drawn
new reg pp allocation is 6 pp tags
new reg rd allocation is 2 tags
After the Special and Regular draws, they process the apps that had GEN as their 1st-3rd choices. They do the GEN last because NR are legislated a minimum qnty of 7,250 full price licenses and the dept converts unused LE tags to GEN tags, to meet that quota.
>My understanding is that if there
>are 1st choice applicants in
>the cheaper fee, they trump
>the 2nd choice applicants in
>special fee class. Those
>tags will actually move from
>the special to regular draw.
> Pretty dumb on the
>part of Wyoming, it only
>costs them about the same
>amount of money they would
>make from raising fees!
2nd choice never trumps 1st choice, regardless of the draw.
The special draw is a completely separate draw from the random draw. The tags are allocated to the Special draw, PP and Random, then drawn.
Remaining Special PP tags go to the Regular PP allocation. Remaining Special RD tags go to the Regular RD allocation.
After the Special draw, they move to the Regular draw with the updated allocations, should there be any pass thru tags.
PP tags never become Random tags.
When asking the draw dept for clarification a cpl years ago, we used unit 22 type 4, 2011 allocations and draw odds.
50 tags total
8 going to NR
40% going to special, split 75/25 PP/RD (3/1)
60% going to regular, split 75/25 pp/rd (3/1)
3 sp pp tags not drawn
1 sp rd tag not drawn
new reg pp allocation is 6 pp tags
new reg rd allocation is 2 tags
After the Special and Regular draws, they process the apps that had GEN as their 1st-3rd choices. They do the GEN last because NR are legislated a minimum qnty of 7,250 full price licenses and the dept converts unused LE tags to GEN tags, to meet that quota.
WapitiBob stated: "2nd choice never trumps 1st choice, regardless of the draw."
That is exactly what I stated in my post above and what the draw people have told you during your conversations with them. However, something is really screwy if our other member says he is drawing an H tag as a second choice when the odds for the random draw in 2012, for instance, show that only 1 in 3 drew the tag as a first choice. How in the world could he draw a tag on a second choice that 2/3rds of the people in the random draw couldn't even draw on a first choice? It sounds almost more like the way New Mexico runs their draw than Wyoming says they run theirs if that's true.
That is exactly what I stated in my post above and what the draw people have told you during your conversations with them. However, something is really screwy if our other member says he is drawing an H tag as a second choice when the odds for the random draw in 2012, for instance, show that only 1 in 3 drew the tag as a first choice. How in the world could he draw a tag on a second choice that 2/3rds of the people in the random draw couldn't even draw on a first choice? It sounds almost more like the way New Mexico runs their draw than Wyoming says they run theirs if that's true.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,369
Clarification here: "PP tags never become Random tags."
Even if there are leftover tags after both the special and regular PP pass?
There are lots of antelope units with dozens of tags left after the PP pass for both special and regular fee.
I'm pretty sure any remaining PP tags after the regular price PP pass drop to the random draw.
Even if there are leftover tags after both the special and regular PP pass?
There are lots of antelope units with dozens of tags left after the PP pass for both special and regular fee.
I'm pretty sure any remaining PP tags after the regular price PP pass drop to the random draw.
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-13 AT 01:21PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-13 AT 12:58?PM (MST)
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-13 AT 12:56?PM (MST)
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-13 AT 12:35?PM (MST)
I spent a good deal of time this AM with the draw dept. I suggest any of you with questions give them a call. PM and I'll forward the direct number. They're great to deal with.
The explanation given to me a cpl years ago was incorrect. The numbers used by the dept in the unit 22 scenario above just happen to coincide with the explanation I was given. Sorry about that erroneous info.
Special PP tags not drawn get pooled.
Special random tags not drawn get pooled.
After the Special draw is conducted, both pools of undrawn special tags are added to the base 60% allocation for the Regular draw.
All regular tags are then split 75/25 and drawn.
At this point, leftovers are all regular price.
For Elk:
After the Special and Regular draws are conducted, IF NR have not drawn 7,250 full price licenses, remaining LE tags are converted to GEN tags, and a 3rd supplemental GEN drawing is held.
The draw reports do not show this 3rd supplement GEN draw.
== This is how a person can draw a 3rd choice GEN tag when the draw reports show 2nd choice only had 80% odds.
There were 704 GEN Elk tags added to this supplemental draw for 2012.
I did not discuss Deer.
I got clarification on lo tags also, for the 2nd time today.
Buzzz's assesment of the LO tags is correct. There is no "quota" on LO tags. If there were enough resident LO's, they could draw every resident tag for a given unit. same for NR LO's.
Only once have there been enough LO's to pull all the tags out of a hunt unit, but they did it.
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-13 AT 12:56?PM (MST)
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-13 AT 12:35?PM (MST)
I spent a good deal of time this AM with the draw dept. I suggest any of you with questions give them a call. PM and I'll forward the direct number. They're great to deal with.
The explanation given to me a cpl years ago was incorrect. The numbers used by the dept in the unit 22 scenario above just happen to coincide with the explanation I was given. Sorry about that erroneous info.
Special PP tags not drawn get pooled.
Special random tags not drawn get pooled.
After the Special draw is conducted, both pools of undrawn special tags are added to the base 60% allocation for the Regular draw.
All regular tags are then split 75/25 and drawn.
At this point, leftovers are all regular price.
For Elk:
After the Special and Regular draws are conducted, IF NR have not drawn 7,250 full price licenses, remaining LE tags are converted to GEN tags, and a 3rd supplemental GEN drawing is held.
The draw reports do not show this 3rd supplement GEN draw.
== This is how a person can draw a 3rd choice GEN tag when the draw reports show 2nd choice only had 80% odds.
There were 704 GEN Elk tags added to this supplemental draw for 2012.
I did not discuss Deer.
I got clarification on lo tags also, for the 2nd time today.
Buzzz's assesment of the LO tags is correct. There is no "quota" on LO tags. If there were enough resident LO's, they could draw every resident tag for a given unit. same for NR LO's.
Only once have there been enough LO's to pull all the tags out of a hunt unit, but they did it.
After all that description of how things are done just for elk alone, I'm just going to tell anyone with questions from now on to call the draw section. This has gotten too deep for me and I thought I actually knew the ins and outs of how they did things. This is all the more reason to just have a random draw like BuzzH and I have been advocationg, LOL!
>Not to hi-jack the thread, but
>what are my odds of
>drawing G as a non-resident
>with zero points.
>
>really pisses me off they got
>rid of the odds map.
>WTF???
***No real chance as last year in the regular PP it took more than 2PPs for 100% darw and 2PPs was down to 8.47%. In the special <2 was 100% and 1 was down to 27.4%.
>what are my odds of
>drawing G as a non-resident
>with zero points.
>
>really pisses me off they got
>rid of the odds map.
>WTF???
***No real chance as last year in the regular PP it took more than 2PPs for 100% darw and 2PPs was down to 8.47%. In the special <2 was 100% and 1 was down to 27.4%.
Sierra
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,125
>>@Topgun. The original post was referring
>>to the special draw, not
>>the regular draw.
>
>
>Yes, I understood the OP!
>What I stated are the
>facts of the draws and
>it was in reference to
>his question about the special
>draw. If there are
>no tags left after everyone
>has an opportunity at their
>first choice at a unit,
>then there are no tags
>left for anyone as a
>second or third choice.
>Even if a guy puts
>in more money he still
>can't draw a tag on
>his second choice if there
>are none available.
You sure about that?
>>to the special draw, not
>>the regular draw.
>
>
>Yes, I understood the OP!
>What I stated are the
>facts of the draws and
>it was in reference to
>his question about the special
>draw. If there are
>no tags left after everyone
>has an opportunity at their
>first choice at a unit,
>then there are no tags
>left for anyone as a
>second or third choice.
>Even if a guy puts
>in more money he still
>can't draw a tag on
>his second choice if there
>are none available.
You sure about that?
nripepi
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,170
When do they get pooled? I think they get pooled after the 1st choice draw for the special, not after going back through the 2nd choices. I've talked with them and offered them advice. Looking at some specific odds on units, I think if you are counting on a 2nd choice tag in the special, you are out of luck as it will be returned to the cheap fee pool for first choice.
I could be wrong or they have changed it I guess, but that is the only explanation I have of why I did not draw a tag.
I could be wrong or they have changed it I guess, but that is the only explanation I have of why I did not draw a tag.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,369
I think they get pooled after the 1st choice draw for the special, not after going back through the 2nd choices.
Nope, you're wrong. If second choices werent looked at in the special, there is no way a NR could draw a general elk tag on a second choice...and they do. I know several NR hunters who have. I also know other guys that have drawn second choice antelope tags in the special pool on second choices that they'd never draw in the random regular draw.
I think if you are counting on a 2nd choice tag in the special, you are out of luck as it will be returned to the cheap fee pool for first choice.
Nope, wrong again.
I could be wrong
Thats true.
Nope, you're wrong. If second choices werent looked at in the special, there is no way a NR could draw a general elk tag on a second choice...and they do. I know several NR hunters who have. I also know other guys that have drawn second choice antelope tags in the special pool on second choices that they'd never draw in the random regular draw.
I think if you are counting on a 2nd choice tag in the special, you are out of luck as it will be returned to the cheap fee pool for first choice.
Nope, wrong again.
I could be wrong
Thats true.
WVHUNTER
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,290
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-13 AT 11:17AM (MST)[p]I will throw my two cents in.
After the Special Preference Point Draw any remaining tags will go to the regular price draw. And this draw only considers first choice.
But the Special Random Draw will consider all First Choice, Second Choice and Third Choice applicants. If there are any tags left after these three choices are looked at then they will go to the regular price draw. And PP don't mean anything in the random draw.
I think this is how second choice applicants are drawing tags in the Special draws when regular price applicants can't draw first choice.
This allows people to draw a tag and build points. Similar to Colorado. But this is one of the problems with PP systems. You shouldn't get points if draw a license.
After the Special Preference Point Draw any remaining tags will go to the regular price draw. And this draw only considers first choice.
But the Special Random Draw will consider all First Choice, Second Choice and Third Choice applicants. If there are any tags left after these three choices are looked at then they will go to the regular price draw. And PP don't mean anything in the random draw.
I think this is how second choice applicants are drawing tags in the Special draws when regular price applicants can't draw first choice.
This allows people to draw a tag and build points. Similar to Colorado. But this is one of the problems with PP systems. You shouldn't get points if draw a license.
That is correct. Special is a totally separate draw with both the PP and Random being drawn before the Regular draw. The PP draw is 1st choice only (1 pass), random is 3 passes (1st-3rd choice). So, you could draw a 3rd choice in the Special side and a guy with the same hunt in the Regular price may not get his 1st choice.
You want better odds, you pay the extra money.
Remaining tags from both Special draws (PP and random) are pooled with the original 60% Regular tag allocation. Then the Regular price draw takes places.
They pool the remaining Special tags because after 3rd choices are looked at, the remaining licenses are essentially "left overs".
After the Regular draw is done, if they have not met the 7,250 full price quota, they add the needed licenses and run all the unsuccessful GEN apps thru. 1st choice, then 2nd, then 3rd.
You want better odds, you pay the extra money.
Remaining tags from both Special draws (PP and random) are pooled with the original 60% Regular tag allocation. Then the Regular price draw takes places.
They pool the remaining Special tags because after 3rd choices are looked at, the remaining licenses are essentially "left overs".
After the Regular draw is done, if they have not met the 7,250 full price quota, they add the needed licenses and run all the unsuccessful GEN apps thru. 1st choice, then 2nd, then 3rd.
nripepi
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,170
BuzzH, I am pretty sure we are both right and both wrong here at the same time as we are talking about two separate draws within the Special and they act differently after they go through 1st choices. I was wrong to lump the Randomn Special with the Preference Point special and you were wrong to lump them both the other way.
I stand by my statement that Wyoming is losing a million dollars per year by moving some of their Special priced tags to the Regular draw (not that many in the General Elk draw recently). Go look at Region Deer tags and you will see that less than 40% of the tags (35% last year in H) ended up being bought by those in the Special. Those 5% that got moved in H, could easily have been bought by someone in the special on their 2nd choice in H. H is not as good example as other areas. If money is the big issue here for the department, why not just leave everything in the special for a period, even a 2nd draw instead of sending those directly to the general allotment. I am not sure if they understand the issue or not, I hope so, but no one that I talked to could put a number on lost revenue.
I stand by my statement that Wyoming is losing a million dollars per year by moving some of their Special priced tags to the Regular draw (not that many in the General Elk draw recently). Go look at Region Deer tags and you will see that less than 40% of the tags (35% last year in H) ended up being bought by those in the Special. Those 5% that got moved in H, could easily have been bought by someone in the special on their 2nd choice in H. H is not as good example as other areas. If money is the big issue here for the department, why not just leave everything in the special for a period, even a 2nd draw instead of sending those directly to the general allotment. I am not sure if they understand the issue or not, I hope so, but no one that I talked to could put a number on lost revenue.
WVHUNTER
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,290
Now that we think we understand this back to JCRASH's original question "Can I draw?"
The 2012 draw odds have 202 tags issued out of 240 available in the preference point draw but none of these go to second choice applicants and the 38 leftover tags go to regular price license pool.
But there are 79 tags available in the random draw and all the first choice have already drawn out leaving the 113 second choice applicants in line for these tags.
So I think he has a 70% chance of drawing a Region H second choice Special Tag. And he keeps his PP and earns another one if he if pays for it but they didn't help him in this draw, it's just random.
The 2012 draw odds have 202 tags issued out of 240 available in the preference point draw but none of these go to second choice applicants and the 38 leftover tags go to regular price license pool.
But there are 79 tags available in the random draw and all the first choice have already drawn out leaving the 113 second choice applicants in line for these tags.
So I think he has a 70% chance of drawing a Region H second choice Special Tag. And he keeps his PP and earns another one if he if pays for it but they didn't help him in this draw, it's just random.
Okay, now I'm up with you and see that they are drawing that second choice in the Regular Special Random Draw, when I was thinking they dropped into the Regular Random Draw that has that different number of tags I menitoned with still the first choice poeple to be taken care of! These dang draw stuff questions can seem so easy for me at times and then other days I have a brain fart and just can't seem to connect on what is happening. I guess that just comes with being 65 and over the hill, LOL! Anyway, I apologize for the incorrect information I gave earlier and now see where I erred!!! Good luck to everyone in the deer and antelope draws this summer, as I at least know what the heck I'm putting in for and should draw!
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