Bush's Dumbest Legal Arguments of 07

T

TFinalshot

Guest
Legal Fictions
The Bush administration's dumbest legal arguments of the year.
By Dahlia Lithwick
Posted Friday, Dec. 28, 2007, at 6:32 PM ET

This time last year, I offered up a top 10 list of the most appalling civil-liberties violations by the Bush administration in 2006. The grim truth is, not much has changed. The Bush administration continues to limit our basic freedoms, conceal its own worst behavior, and insist that it does all this in order to make us more free. In that spirit, it seemed an opportune moment to commemorate the administration's worst legal justifications and arguments of the year. And so I humbly offer this new year's roundup: The Bush Administration's Top 10 Stupidest Legal Arguments of 2007.

10. The NSA's eavesdropping was limited in scope.

Not at all. Recent revelations suggest the program was launched earlier than we'd been led to believe, scooped up more information than we were led to believe, and was not at all narrowly tailored, as we'd been led to believe. Surprised? Me neither.

9. Scooter Libby's sentence was commuted because it was excessive.

##### Cheney's former chief of staff, Scooter Libby, was found guilty of perjury and obstructing justice in connection with the outing of Valerie Plame. In July, before Libby had served out a day of his prison sentence, President Bush commuted his sentence, insisting the 30-month prison sentence was "excessive." In fact, under the federal sentencing guidelines, Libby's sentence was perfectly appropriate and consistent with positions advocated by Bush's own Justice Department earlier this year.

8. The vice president's office is not a part of the executive branch.

We also learned in July that over the repeated objections of the National Archives, Vice President ##### Cheney exempted his office from Executive Order 12958, designed to safeguard classified national security information. In declining such oversight in 2004, Cheney advanced the astounding legal proposition that the Office of the Vice President is not an "entity within the executive branch" and hence is not subject to presidential executive orders. When, in January 2007, the Information Security Oversight Office asked Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to resolve the dispute, Cheney recommended the executive order be amended to abolish the Information Security Oversight Office altogether. In a new interview with Mike Isikoff at Newsweek, the director of the ISOO stated that his fight with Cheney's office was a "contributing" factor in his decision to quit after 34 years.

7. The Guantanamo Bay detainees enjoy more legal rights than any prisoners of war in history.

This has been one of the catchiest refrains of the war on terror, right up there with the claim that the prisoners there are well-fed and cared for. The government brief in the December Supreme Court appeal on the rights of these detainees to contest their detentions proudly proclaimed that the "detainees now enjoy greater procedural protections and statutory rights to challenge their wartime detentions than any other captured enemy combatants in the history of war." That certainly sounds plausible. But as my colleague Emily Bazelon detailed here in Slate, a vast gaggle of historians, constitutional scholars, and retired military officers vehemently dispute that characterization of the legal processes afforded the detainees. The argument that Guantanamo prisoners have greater rights than they would otherwise be afforded relies on deep distortions of both fact and law.

6. Water-boarding may not be torture.

Water-boarding is torture. It's torture under the Geneva Conventions and has been treated as a war crime in the United States for decades. The answer to the question of its legality should be as simple as the answer to whether boiling prisoners in oil is legal. But in his confirmation hearings to become U.S. attorney general, Michael Mukasey could not bring himself to agree. He claimed not to have been "read into" the interrogation program and to be incapable of speculating about hypothetical techniques. He added that he did not want to place U.S. officials "in personal legal jeopardy" and that such remarks might "provide our enemies with a window into the limits or contours of any interrogation program." Even Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., seems to be catching on to what it means when senior legal advisers find themselves incapable of calling water-boarding torture.

5. Everyone who has ever spoken to the president about anything is barred from congressional testimony by executive privilege.

This little gem of an argument was cooked up by the White House last July when the Senate judiciary committee sought the testimony of former White House political director Sara Taylor, as well as that of former White House counsel Harriet Miers, in connection with the firing of nine U.S. attorneys for partisan ideological reasons. Taylor was subpoenaed in June and, according to her lawyers, she wanted to testify but was barred by White House counsel Fred Fielding's judgment that the president could compel her to assert executive privilege and forbid her testimony. As Bruce Fein argued in Slate, that dramatic over-reading of the privilege would both preclude congressional oversight of any sort and muzzle anyone who'd ever communicated with the president, regardless of their wish to talk.

4. Nine U.S. attorneys were fired by nobody, but for good reason.

Of course, the great legal story of 2007 was the unprecedented firing of nine U.S. attorneys who either declined to prosecute Democrats or were too successful in prosecuting Republicans. After months of congressional hearings, subpoenas, and investigations, the mastermind behind the plan to replace these prosecutors with "loyal Bushies" has yet to be determined. The decision is instead blamed on a "process" wherein unnamed senior department officials came to a "consensus" decision. No one is willing to name names, even though the firings were ostensibly legal, because, in the words of the president himself, these prosecutors all "serve at the pleasure of the president" and can be fired for any reason. Nevertheless, the firing of the nine U.S. attorneys?many of whom had stellar records and job reviews?remains shrouded in secrecy, although at least according to everyone who's testified, they were all fired for good reasons (which also cannot be articulated).

3. Alberto Gonzales.

I am forced to put the former attorney general into his own category only because were I to attempt to round up his best legal whoppers of the calendar year, it would overwhelm the rest of the list. As Paul Kiel over at Talking Points Memo so aptly put it earlier this year, Gonzales was and is clearly "the lying-est attorney general in recent history." Kiel went on to catalog Gonzales' six most egregious legal lies of the year, but I'll focus here on just two. First, his claim at a March press conference that he "was not involved in seeing any memos, was not involved in any discussions about what was going on" with respect to the U.S. attorney firings. This was debunked shortly thereafter when Kyle Sampson testified that Gonzales was frequently updated throughout the process. Second, his April testimony that he had not "talked to witnesses because of the fact that I haven't wanted to interfere with this investigation and department investigations," which was promptly contradicted by Monica Goodling's testimony about his efforts to coordinate his version of the story with hers.

2. State secrets.

Again, it's virtually impossible to cite the single most egregious assertion by the Bush administration of the state-secrets privilege, because there are so many to choose from. This doctrine once barred the introduction into court of specific evidence that might compromise national security, but in the hands of the Bush administration, it has ballooned into a doctrine of blanket immunity for any conduct the administration wishes to hide. The privilege was invoked in 2007 to block testimony about its torture and extraordinary rendition program, its warrantless surveillance program, and to defend the notion of telecom immunity for colluding in government eavesdropping, among other things. No longer an evidentiary rule, the state-secrets privilege has become one of the administration's surest mechanisms for shielding its most egregious activities.

1. The United States does not torture.

First there was the 2002 torture memo. That was withdrawn. Then there was the December 2004 statement that declared torture "abhorrent." But then there was the new secret 2005 torture memo. But members of Congress were fully briefed about that. Except that they were not. There was Abu Ghraib. There were the destroyed CIA tapes. So you see, the United States does not torture. Except for when it does.
Dahlia Lithwick is a Slate senior editor.

Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2179934/
 
Guess thats why you were warning RLEH in that other post with dude.....was'nt goin your way TF ?????? Thought you mod's were a little more bias.....




If huntin is a sport.....Well your lookin at an athlete!
 
It's just an article, you dont have to believe everything your read. . .
 
Common TF ... you gotta admit '07' was dumb - dumb's greatest year ever. His irrelevance peaked. Only 300 some odd days to go & we'll be done with this mess of an administration. Just wish around 4000 of our best & brightest hadn't had to make the supreme sacrifice for this moron's perverted vision.

"God bless everyone of them"

RUS
 
The more you look at Bush and his administration the more it makes you realize no matter who gets elected this fall it's going to be an upgrade.

The books and movies to come once the Bush insiders start talking should be mighty entertaining, you couldn't make this stuff up any better. the best part is Bush still has a few supporters who can't see it yet, brilliant.
 
Depends what side of the fence your on. I will never vote for or support a anti gun pres. And thats what we'll get if a democrat gets elected. Is Bush perfect? No, but were a hell of alot better off than we would have been with that light wieght Kerry! If he had been elected maybe you Oregonians would get to enjoy the same anti-gun loving peacfull world we have down here in Ca. I think thats part of the problem, you dont know how bad it can be......Come to Ca and try to buy a savage stryker pistol, or a contender pistol. When it trickles down to you you'll be cryin. And then what? You might not be anti-gun but the LIBERALS ARE! Last time I checked we dont get a dem, lib,rep,and cons to vote for. Its LIBERAL/DEMOCRAT and rep/cons. We've had this argument before and it goes nowhere, I know bush is'nt perfect but we have to protect our second amendment.....The democrats and liberals have always been on the other side of this battle. This is America, you cant have your cake and eat it too.




If huntin is a sport.....Well your lookin at an athlete!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-08 AT 10:22PM (MST)[p]I belive it's the 2nd amendment that protects our right to bear arms not either one of the political parties.

You value your liberty but are fine with this president and his administration violating the Geneva Convention, playing games with the constitution, the justice department , stonewalling any investigation that hits close to home and using executive privilege like candy. what makes you think this kind of political direction won't effect your liberty in the future? even your right to bear arms. who decides if the ends justifies the means? do you want Hillary to have the same freedoms Bush has enjoyed? I' bet not, it needs to end.
 
Dear Fellow NRA Member,

Working together, we scored a major victory in the media war to save the Second Amendment at our Celebration of American Values event in Washington, D.C.

At this history-making presidential event, the media lined up for blocks to see John McCain, Mike Huckabee, Fred Thompson, Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, Duncan Hunter, and Bill Richardson look NRA members in the eye, tell us where they stand on the Second Amendment, and ask for our votes.

And for the first time in this presidential election, America's 80 million gun owners could hear these candidates, word for word, unfiltered, and undistorted by the media in presenting their views on our Constitutional rights.

Before you vote in the primaries, I urge you to visit www.NRAValues.org to hear where the candidates stand on the Second Amendment and decide for yourself who deserves your vote...

... And who doesn't.

Thank you for your loyalty to NRA and thank you for helping build a fortress of pro-firearm freedom voters around the Second Amendment in 2008.




----------------------------------
National Rifle Association * 11250 Waples Mill Road * Fairfax, VA 22030
If you would like to remove yourself from this list, please click here and you will be removed immediately! Thank you!
 
Clinton ( Bill ) was supposed to be the end of gun ownership if elected both times if you believe the NRA. here we are 12 years after his first term being told the same thing about his old lady. I'll admit pro gun politians are much prefered, but if a dem president had the power to take your guns it would already be done. I notice the NRA also includes why you should send them money to fight the evil gun grabbers as well, dems are good for business. you can only cry wolf so many times before it loses something.

Elect politians who won't screw with the constitution and our guns are safe, along with our other freedoms. a crook is a crook , party affiliation isn't as important as character.
 
Dude is right about it needs to end. Bush pulling some of this playing around with our rights does not scare me as much as it would with Hillery doing it. But if one gets away with it, the next in line can try to get away with it too.
As for the second amendment protecting our firearms rights, that is not true all the time. Look how many democrats have stated it does not apply to the individual and enacted firearms laws like Washington D.C. New York City, New Jersey, San Francisco, & CA. has done that violates the very essence of the right for a citizen to possess firearms. So this violation of our liberties is not a one party matter. More democrats then GOP started violating our second amendment many years ago and will not be satisfied until they have disarmed the citizens.
Yes Bush has stonewalled investigations that gets close to his way of doing things, but He is not inventing anything new. Slick Willie and Hillary did the same thing on numerous investigations about their doings while in office. Richard Nixon did it also, and got caught red handed at it. To bad slick willie could not have given him some pointers on how not to get caught.
If the Gov. wants to violate some of my rights by listening in on my conversations in the interest of security, so what!! I am not doing anything that I am afraid of being caught at. If the Gov. wants to water board some terrorists to prevent another 9-11, So what!!! You will not get information out of them any other way. At lease we not be-heading them like they have done to our people.
But when my Gov. wants to disarm me and take away my ability to protect my family. My ability to rise up in armed revolt with thousands of others to overthrow a dictatorship in my own county, I get very fearful of that Gov. and the people in that gov. who wants to do this. I truly believe in my rights as layed down by our founding fathers, and I believe that it is the 2nd. amendant that will provide the means to protect the other amendants from being taken away from us. Just take a good long look at many years of history on what was first taken away from the citizens when a person in power wanted to install a dictatorship in that country.

RELH
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-08 AT 08:43AM (MST)[p]If the Gov. wants to violate
>some of my rights by
>listening in on my conversations
>in the interest of security,
>so what!! I am not
>doing anything that I am
>afraid of being caught at.
>If the Gov. wants to
>water board some terrorists to
>prevent another 9-11, So what!!!
>You will not get information
>out of them any other
>way. At lease we not
>be-heading them like they have
>done to our people.
> But when my
>Gov. wants to disarm me
>and take away my ability
>to protect my family. My
>ability to rise up in
>armed revolt with thousands of
>others to overthrow a dictatorship
>in my own county, I
>get very fearful of that
>Gov. and the people in
>that gov. who wants to
>do this. I truly believe
>in my rights as layed
>down by our founding fathers,
>and I believe that it
>is the 2nd. amendant that
>will provide the means to
>protect the other amendants from
>being taken away from us.
>Just take a good long
>look at many years of
>history on what was first
>taken away from the citizens
>when a person in power
>wanted to install a dictatorship
>in that country.

> RELH


To me this is an example (excuse me for using it, but it's perfect, and I'm not picking on you as a person, I'm using your words to support my position) of exactly the reason our nation is going down the tubes. too many people lack even the basic understanding of the foundation upon which this country was built and therefore they are quick to select for themselves which of the pieces of the constitution are worth saving.

Times have changed for sure, but I do believe that by allowing the government to overstep, or over reach it's authority we support them in tearing apart the fabric that has held together the greatest nation of modern times. . . A nation divided can not stand together. . .


"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
>Legal Fictions
>The Bush administration's dumbest legal arguments
>of the year.
>By Dahlia Lithwick
>Posted Friday, Dec. 28, 2007, at
>6:32 PM ET
>
>This time last year, I offered
>up a top 10 list
>of the most appalling civil-liberties
>violations by the Bush administration
>in 2006. The grim truth
>is, not much has changed.
>The Bush administration continues to
>limit our basic freedoms, conceal
>its own worst behavior, and
>insist that it does all
>this in order to make
>us more free. In that
>spirit, it seemed an opportune
>moment to commemorate the administration's
>worst legal justifications and arguments
>of the year. And so
>I humbly offer this new
>year's roundup: The Bush Administration's
>Top 10 Stupidest Legal Arguments
>of 2007.
>
>10. The NSA's eavesdropping was limited
>in scope.
>
>Not at all. Recent revelations suggest
>the program was launched earlier
>than we'd been led to
>believe, scooped up more information
>than we were led to
>believe, and was not at
>all narrowly tailored, as we'd
>been led to believe. Surprised?
>Me neither.
>
>9. Scooter Libby's sentence was commuted
>because it was excessive.
>
>##### Cheney's former chief of staff,
>Scooter Libby, was found guilty
>of perjury and obstructing justice
>in connection with the outing
>of Valerie Plame. In July,
>before Libby had served out
>a day of his prison
>sentence, President Bush commuted his
>sentence, insisting the 30-month prison
>sentence was "excessive." In fact,
>under the federal sentencing guidelines,
>Libby's sentence was perfectly appropriate
>and consistent with positions advocated
>by Bush's own Justice Department
>earlier this year.
>
>8. The vice president's office is
>not a part of the
>executive branch.
>
>We also learned in July that
>over the repeated objections of
>the National Archives, Vice President
>##### Cheney exempted his office
>from Executive Order 12958, designed
>to safeguard classified national security
>information. In declining such oversight
>in 2004, Cheney advanced the
>astounding legal proposition that the
>Office of the Vice President
>is not an "entity within
>the executive branch" and hence
>is not subject to presidential
>executive orders. When, in January
>2007, the Information Security Oversight
>Office asked Attorney General Alberto
>Gonzales to resolve the dispute,
>Cheney recommended the executive order
>be amended to abolish the
>Information Security Oversight Office altogether.
>In a new interview with
>Mike Isikoff at Newsweek, the
>director of the ISOO stated
>that his fight with Cheney's
>office was a "contributing" factor
>in his decision to quit
>after 34 years.
>
>7. The Guantanamo Bay detainees enjoy
>more legal rights than any
>prisoners of war in history.
>
>
>This has been one of the
>catchiest refrains of the war
>on terror, right up there
>with the claim that the
>prisoners there are well-fed and
>cared for. The government brief
>in the December Supreme Court
>appeal on the rights of
>these detainees to contest their
>detentions proudly proclaimed that the
>"detainees now enjoy greater procedural
>protections and statutory rights to
>challenge their wartime detentions than
>any other captured enemy combatants
>in the history of war."
>That certainly sounds plausible. But
>as my colleague Emily Bazelon
>detailed here in Slate, a
>vast gaggle of historians, constitutional
>scholars, and retired military officers
>vehemently dispute that characterization of
>the legal processes afforded the
>detainees. The argument that Guantanamo
>prisoners have greater rights than
>they would otherwise be afforded
>relies on deep distortions of
>both fact and law.
>
>6. Water-boarding may not be torture.
>
>
>Water-boarding is torture. It's torture under
>the Geneva Conventions and has
>been treated as a war
>crime in the United States
>for decades. The answer to
>the question of its legality
>should be as simple as
>the answer to whether boiling
>prisoners in oil is legal.
>But in his confirmation hearings
>to become U.S. attorney general,
>Michael Mukasey could not bring
>himself to agree. He claimed
>not to have been "read
>into" the interrogation program and
>to be incapable of speculating
>about hypothetical techniques. He added
>that he did not want
>to place U.S. officials "in
>personal legal jeopardy" and that
>such remarks might "provide our
>enemies with a window into
>the limits or contours of
>any interrogation program." Even Sen.
>Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., seems to
>be catching on to what
>it means when senior legal
>advisers find themselves incapable of
>calling water-boarding torture.
>
>5. Everyone who has ever spoken
>to the president about anything
>is barred from congressional testimony
>by executive privilege.
>
>This little gem of an argument
>was cooked up by the
>White House last July when
>the Senate judiciary committee sought
>the testimony of former White
>House political director Sara Taylor,
>as well as that of
>former White House counsel Harriet
>Miers, in connection with the
>firing of nine U.S. attorneys
>for partisan ideological reasons. Taylor
>was subpoenaed in June and,
>according to her lawyers, she
>wanted to testify but was
>barred by White House counsel
>Fred Fielding's judgment that the
>president could compel her to
>assert executive privilege and forbid
>her testimony. As Bruce Fein
>argued in Slate, that dramatic
>over-reading of the privilege would
>both preclude congressional oversight of
>any sort and muzzle anyone
>who'd ever communicated with the
>president, regardless of their wish
>to talk.
>
>4. Nine U.S. attorneys were fired
>by nobody, but for good
>reason.
>
>Of course, the great legal story
>of 2007 was the unprecedented
>firing of nine U.S. attorneys
>who either declined to prosecute
>Democrats or were too successful
>in prosecuting Republicans. After months
>of congressional hearings, subpoenas, and
>investigations, the mastermind behind the
>plan to replace these prosecutors
>with "loyal Bushies" has yet
>to be determined. The decision
>is instead blamed on a
>"process" wherein unnamed senior department
>officials came to a "consensus"
>decision. No one is willing
>to name names, even though
>the firings were ostensibly legal,
>because, in the words of
>the president himself, these prosecutors
>all "serve at the pleasure
>of the president" and can
>be fired for any reason.
>Nevertheless, the firing of the
>nine U.S. attorneys�many of whom
>had stellar records and job
>reviews�remains shrouded in secrecy, although
>at least according to everyone
>who's testified, they were all
>fired for good reasons (which
>also cannot be articulated).
>
>3. Alberto Gonzales.
>
>I am forced to put the
>former attorney general into his
>own category only because were
>I to attempt to round
>up his best legal whoppers
>of the calendar year, it
>would overwhelm the rest of
>the list. As Paul Kiel
>over at Talking Points Memo
>so aptly put it earlier
>this year, Gonzales was and
>is clearly "the lying-est attorney
>general in recent history." Kiel
>went on to catalog Gonzales'
>six most egregious legal lies
>of the year, but I'll
>focus here on just two.
>First, his claim at a
>March press conference that he
>"was not involved in seeing
>any memos, was not involved
>in any discussions about what
>was going on" with respect
>to the U.S. attorney firings.
>This was debunked shortly thereafter
>when Kyle Sampson testified that
>Gonzales was frequently updated throughout
>the process. Second, his April
>testimony that he had not
>"talked to witnesses because of
>the fact that I haven't
>wanted to interfere with this
>investigation and department investigations," which
>was promptly contradicted by Monica
>Goodling's testimony about his efforts
>to coordinate his version of
>the story with hers.
>
>2. State secrets.
>
>Again, it's virtually impossible to cite
>the single most egregious assertion
>by the Bush administration of
>the state-secrets privilege, because there
>are so many to choose
>from. This doctrine once barred
>the introduction into court of
>specific evidence that might compromise
>national security, but in the
>hands of the Bush administration,
>it has ballooned into a
>doctrine of blanket immunity for
>any conduct the administration wishes
>to hide. The privilege was
>invoked in 2007 to block
>testimony about its torture and
>extraordinary rendition program, its warrantless
>surveillance program, and to defend
>the notion of telecom immunity
>for colluding in government eavesdropping,
>among other things. No longer
>an evidentiary rule, the state-secrets
>privilege has become one of
>the administration's surest mechanisms for
>shielding its most egregious activities.
>
>
>1. The United States does not
>torture.
>
>First there was the 2002 torture
>memo. That was withdrawn. Then
>there was the December 2004
>statement that declared torture "abhorrent."
>But then there was the
>new secret 2005 torture memo.
>But members of Congress were
>fully briefed about that. Except
>that they were not. There
>was Abu Ghraib. There were
>the destroyed CIA tapes. So
>you see, the United States
>does not torture. Except for
>when it does.
>Dahlia Lithwick is a Slate senior
>editor.
>
>Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2179934/

All I have to say about this crap article is this:

1. No terrorist attacks on US soil since Bush put the ass whoopin on alquida in Iraq.

2. Waterboard the mother %^$#@$ out of every terrorist we capture and I could give a rats $%%

3. Executive priviledge..........get over it, all the Presidents use it.

4. Please NSA eves drop the crap out of me if it helps keep the terrorist at bay.

5. Scooter Liby is Da Man



�Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.�
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
T-Final...I am convinced you have too much LIBERAL idealism in your way of thinking to participate in a conversation like this! You quoted RELH and then tryed to twist it into some sort of liberal crap! Times have changed? Your Damn right... The mere fact that you stated" Which pieces of the constitution are worth saving" even the thought that it should be changed is a liberal way of thinking!!!! The problem with this country is it has been changed and abused when ever the gov needed to further a cause. The freedoms we all enjoy are guaranteed buy our RIGHT to keep and bare arms and the freedom to speak up when those rights are being violated......To tell you all the truth, Its to late anyways. I believe we have a better chance of keeping our guns with a republican. Does that mean they are'nt going to keep drilling for oil and not destroy all the wild places I love?????Hell NO. We need the oil, but I'll have my guns and I like that outcome better than everybody running around in electric cars and having a few extra bucks in the bank because HILLARY got us all union jobs and lowered our taxes. LIVE FREE OR DIE.

P.S. Oh yeah....T-F I'll use my freedom of speech while I still can to let you know that I think you being a MOD on this site is B.S. you use your power to warn and refrain those who dont see it your way......Our MOD's should have a biased and judgement free attitude when it comes to dealing with arguments or handing out warnings. You've shown your true colors, I'll be sending founder my thoughts about you.....Its my right!
P.S.S. Dude, let me know how you or your kids enjoy that inheritance tax...Oh yeah Bush did do a few things right.Or are you a UNION RANCHER? I'm pretty tired of everyone bashing just one man..... It takes a hell of alot of people to do what has been done. What about the war? Your always on that wagon, was it a right thing to do.....HELL YES. Was it coducted the way it should have been?NO Should we have gotten more intell before we went in? YES.I dont think any right minded citizen is happy about the way it turned out and I am sorry we had to lose so many of our finest but war is uncertain. Would it have been better to let Saddam gain more power?????Know you guys want to let some jack-a$$ liberal run the show with IRAN and these other countries gaining power? Just what we need, another WEAK LETS TALK ABOUT PEACE LIBERAL in office. That way in 4 or 8 years we can go through the post Bill Clinton crap again.... Did you forget what happened right at the end of his 8 years???? Great, lets give Osama, and all the other terrorist's 8 years to rebuild what we have destroyed in the last 8 and that way we can start all over..........................................................................................................................
 
477be2ea6092df45.jpg



"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
Oh yeah....To Dude and T-F, I'm sure you guy's are stand up guys but I do not agree with you. Dont take it personally. I'm just attacking your way of thinking.....I think were all used to it. In reality our different views are what keep this country from going under....BALANCE


If huntin is a sport.....Well your lookin at an athlete!
 
202 why am I not surprised.

Can you prove Iraq has anything to do with no more SUCCESSFUL terrorist attacks? there have been attempt but law enforcement stopped them not the military. what about Al Qaida everywhere else in the world? only Iraq counts? or do you still think Iraq is where Bin Laden's from and is today?

Violating the Geneva Convention is fine with you? so if other counties do it to our soldiers that's fair enough right?

Libby is a liar, crook and a cheat. you do know " Da Man " writes creepy porn books with young girls in a cage getting raped by a bear? but it's for their training to become prostitutes so that makes perfect sense right? your moral warrior pardoned this creep, what a heros they are.
 
>
477be2ea6092df45.jpg

Never mind my last post then, your proving my point just as well as I could have. No real idea's just sarcastic remarks and comments.Lets complain and do nothing about it...Right? Whoevers in office is to blame!
>
>"Roadless areas, in general, represent some
>of the best fish and
>wildlife habitat on public lands.
> The bad news is
>that there is nothing positive
>about a road where fish
>and wildlife habitat are concerned
>-- absolutely nothing." (B&C
>Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair
>Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).








If huntin is a sport.....Well your lookin at an athlete!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-08 AT 12:31PM (MST)[p]well, you gotta admit it makes you laugh - just like it's making you and others laugh right now.

It's all with a grain of salt, we have a good time on MM talking between all of us, dont let it get to you.

Have a smile on your face, the glass is half full bud, not half empty!

God bless you,
 
>202 why am I not surprised.
>
>
> Can you prove Iraq has
>anything to do with no
>more SUCCESSFUL terrorist attacks? there
>have been attempt but law
>enforcement stopped them not the
>military. what about Al Qaida
>everywhere else in the world?
>only Iraq counts? or do
>you still think Iraq is
>where Bin Laden's from and
>is today?
>
> Violating the Geneva Convention is
>fine with you? so if
>other counties do it to
>our soldiers that's fair enough
>right?
>
> Libby is a liar, crook
>and a cheat. you do
>know " Da Man "
>writes creepy porn books with
>young girls in a cage
>getting raped by a bear?
>but it's for their training
>to become prostitutes so that
>makes perfect sense right? your
>moral warrior pardoned this creep,
>what a heros they are.
>



AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhahahahahahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
You crack me up Dude!

�Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.�
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
Oh and might I add that things are going quite well in Iraq.



�Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.�
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-08 AT 01:01PM (MST)[p]"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
- Daniel Webster
 
202 things are going better in Iraq, and worse in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Palistine, Syria and who knows about Iran. where has Iraq solved anything other than a dictator being replaced by a corrupt and ineffective government? I'm not saying Iraq isn't getting less violent but you have yet to justify the cost in blood and dollars, nobody has.

You didn't say anything about your Da Mans book, if a well known dem had written something like that I think you'd have plenty to say. I know his book is old news but the way the moral warriors pick and choose their issues is amusing to say the least. bash gays but admire a bear on girl, peeing in front of a deer's nose before having sex with it porn writer politian. I hope all his sick thoughts are just fiction but to even imagine that kind of stuff would make me seek help,I wouldn't even admit it let alone write it and have it published. even if I could get past the fact he helped rat out a CIA agent and was pardoned for lying to protect the people who pardoned him he's just too twisted for me to admire.
 
Seems to me that Bolton AND Mcellian both wrote scathing books about the dysfunctional Bush administration. . . . O but that would be because they too dont understand the importance of protecting our civil liberties and safety from our enemies. . .
 
Dude I believe there is more substance to show that the amount of Al Quaida followers and mid level leaders killed in Iraq and Afganistan will show more credit that it has stopped or severly slowed down possible attacks on our country. You would have a harder way to go to show that it has not been effective in slowing down or stopping attacks.
As for other countries violating the Geneva Accord on war crimes. where have you been, what about the G.I.s taken hostage and tortured and killed in Iraq. what about the films of our helicopter pilots being dragged in the street after being slashed up in Africa. What about the troops in Afganistan being captured and killed after being tortured.
Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire, but water boarding is not the same as what has been done to some of our troops and civilians. I will be honest to admit that it jerks my chain for mealy mouth liberals in this country to scream to high heaven about water boarding terroists when they remain quite about some of the things that have been done to our troops and civilians when they are captured by the enemy.
maybe seeing this happening to your fellow squad mate is the reason why some of our troops have stepped over the line and shot up some civilians while in a firefight. Our troops also do not grab women and children to use as shields in a firefight as the Al Quaida fightes have done on several occasions. Or force a family to take in Al Quaida fighters into their house knowing full well that the house will be shelled when they fire from it. Then they bug out and leave the family to die in the barrage and have their propaganda people yell about the civilians that were killed by the great satan from the U.S. Then our liberals here start yelling about our troops being killers and murderers. does that sound familar to you.
I agree Libby is a liar and deserved the punishment he got, but look at how many skated on also receiving their just punishment and their is numerous democrats in that bunch along with members of the GOP. Hillary Clinton is one of the biggest ones who skated, and I can not fathom how any one in their right mind would want her for a president. You also made a good point in your post about electing politicians based on their character. If that would happen today, 75% of the democrats would be out of office, and about 50% of the Gop would be out. We will never see that day but it is wishful thinking on the ideal world.
RELH
 
" 202 things are going better in Iraq, and worse in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Palistine, Syria and who knows about Iran. where has Iraq solved anything other than a dictator being replaced by a corrupt and ineffective government? I'm not saying Iraq isn't getting less violent but you have yet to justify the cost in blood and dollars, nobody has.

You didn't say anything about your Da Mans book, if a well known dem had written something like that I think you'd have plenty to say. I know his book is old news but the way the moral warriors pick and choose their issues is amusing to say the least. bash gays but admire a bear on girl, peeing in front of a deer's nose before having sex with it porn writer politian. I hope all his sick thoughts are just fiction but to even imagine that kind of stuff would make me seek help,I wouldn't even admit it let alone write it and have it published. even if I could get past the fact he helped rat out a CIA agent and was pardoned for lying to protect the people who pardoned him he's just too twisted for me to admire. "

Number one Dude whith a friendly country to US in the middle of the sh%$ it makes great sence. Iraq will play out in history as a masterful plan that was key to protection of you and ours.

Number two, you claim every other country around Iraq is going to sh^% and being taken over by terrorist. What better place for us to put the A whoopin but in their back yard.

Dude you can't see the forest for the trees.

Number three I am un-informed about this book you speak of. Please give title so I can investigate. Then I will explain that to you also!




?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
HD,

Just a few corrections. Libby wasn't pardoned, There is no country called Palestine.

Like it or not the Constitution allows the President to commute and pardon whom he pleases. It does not say there has to be any kind of valid legal arguement or reason.

So Libby's remains and will remain a convicted felon. In addition he was not the one who ratted out Plame. He got in hot water for lying about who did.

As for the rest of the list, it could be made about every President every year, going back to Wilson.

I do think the it is stupid to say that the VP's office is not part of the Executive Branch. My 5th grader knows better then that. I also do not like administration going around the FISA court and violating the law against evesdropping on U.S. citizens.

Torture and waterboarding are things that should be reviewed. How do you trust any intel gathered by torture? That is what I was always taught.

Gonzales is gone and has had his career as well as his creditablility destroyed.

One of the most eloquent and succint defenses of our country and it's legal system I have ever heard was given by Lt. Cmdr. Charles Swift, the Navy attorney who defended alleged al-Qaida member, Salim Ahmed Hamdan.

I can't find the clip I wanted but here is a farily good on of him.

I will keep looking.

Nemont
 
RELH I can agree with you that Al Qaida doesn't play by the rules but I don't see how that means we don't have to. if we lower ourselves to their level then we're no better, and deserve no more respect or support from others. Even as hyped up on the war as MCain is he understands this.

Nemont you're splitting hairs. Palestine is a geographical area with Palistinians living in it, they'ld be living where Israel is today if we hadn't taken it from them. Libby had his sentence commuted by Bush so while not quite as good as a pardon if I ever go to prison I'd be happy with it. what do you want to bet he gets a full pardon when Bush leaves office, along with a bunch of other loyal low lifes. too bad he can't pardon in advance, most of his administration better flee to Mexico next Jan.

202 you're either super optimistic or ignorant, we'll have to wait and see if your delusions have any merritt.

Da Man's book is titled " The Apprentice " and if Donald Trump is in it he's probably getting raped by a skunk or something. I never read the book just out takes, too freaked out for me but you enjoy.
 
HD,
So are you opposed to the Constitutional power of the President to issue pardons and reprieves?

I will take that bet that Libby does not get a pardon. If he is not pardoned you owe me a bottle of Pendleton's and if he is I will send you a bottle of what ever you like. Libby has gotten all the love from GWB he is going to get.

It wasn't just "we" who helped establish the country of Israel. I know that is a convient and simplistic view of it but the post war period there was a feeling that the Jews were owed a homeland to call their own. Argue against that idea if you want but the reality is that Israel is there and the U.S. will continue to support her regardless of who is president or who controls congress.

There is not a country called Palestine. Would be much easier if there was but we and the Europeans do not like how the Palestinian's run their country. Therefore there continues to be strife. There is no way that radical Palistinians can accept peace with Israel, they have nothing to gain and everything to lose. Israel has no way to make peace with a people who could care less if they live or die. Way off topic.

Anyway in about a year you will have to send me a bottle of Pendleton's. If you want you can deliver it in the fall after harvest and we can either do some pheasant hunting or walleye fishing.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-08 AT 05:01PM (MST)[p]I'm up for a little cast-n-blast, so rig the rods and load the shotguns NeMont, I'll be over there to make sure it's s civil hand off, and I'll even capture a few photos to memorialize the occasion for the guys on MM!
 
You shouldn't have made that bet, I'm an avid bird hunter with a couple German Shorthairs. but Pendleton? I even tried that in the Let'er Buck Room and it was to raspy for me when I was half drunk. I'll bring Crown for T and myself.
 
Boy! did Dude let you off the hook, since you left that bottle open to all comers, he could have named off a $ 10,000 bottle of imported vintage wine. I think you will collect on your bottle from Dude, but you should not have left it open like that for insurance, just in case he collects.

RELH
 
I wasn't real worried about HD wanting to drink a vintage wine.

Nothing wrong with Pendleton's, not a headache in a whole bottle of that stuff.

The drive over will be more expensive then anything else. We have lots of birds and could get in a sharptail, hun and pheasant hunt.

The bet is on. Tfinal you are the referee.

Nemont
 
And don't forget....''I don't know how that document from the national archives fell into my sock...It wasn't criminal intent it was uh uh uh sloppy organization yeah that's it''....Oh wait, that wasn't the Bush administration, that was Sandy Berger(lar) aka Clinton admin stealing incriminating memos from the archives.
 
I think Burger was stupid but he did that on his own, where did Clinton try to make excuses up for that idiotic move? I'm not saying he did not try something, I just never saw where Clinton tried to cover it up.
 
TF,

I'm quite certain that the majority of Americans know that Clinton is the master of cover-ups, dishonesty, and getting away with lying under oath (no prison sentence for him, huh...interesting?). Also, intersting is that even though I have been off this website for quite some time, that I knew TF would still be on the usual Liberal Band Wagon of Bush Bashing. At least your consistent TF......Hey thats one trait you have in common with President Bush......consistency. Now that should make you proud!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-08 AT 06:19PM (MST)[p]Okayyyyyyy, so youre picking on me because the opinions in the list are untrue, or did I miss something? Stick around, i'll be picking on the new leader too. For me it's not personally about Bush, it's about our country and the Presidency. Bush happens to be the decider who dug the holes that now we will pay to fill. . .

Please, next time address the subject, unless all there really is, is old clinton news. . .
 
Him and a lot of Senators and Congressmen from both sides of the aisle who supported action (at least when it was politically expedient to do so). Lets not forget that Bush did not arbitrarily set us on this path alone.
 
Oh, do tell us now how we got on this path, would it have anything to do with NOT telling the truth at the UN, or do you think that General Powell just decided it was time to retire and go home? Wow, I cant believe there are people who openly try to suggest that it was congress that pushed the war - for those that due, I think they really dont understand what happened or more likely, they choose to participate in the willful social denial of truth. . .
 
Go do some homework and you'll find that our intel came primarily from Clinton appointments. Some of the same appointments that pointed toward OBL and the attack on the USS Cole which also pointed toward the importance of taking custody of him from the Saudi's when Clinton had the chance. For you to accuse Bush of being the sole proprietor of the mistakes of this world show how shallow your thinking is. But I guess it is the job of the Congress to be the meek and wash their hands of any action they voted on once it is no longer politically expedient for them to do so.

BTW, I believe the UN inspectors had something to do with the final resolution which resulted in taking militarty action and now I guess you going to speculate that somehow Bush and the Republican party has mind control over the ultra conservative UN!!!

Go read the record...go watch some archives from CSPAN..yes there were those in Congress who pushed for it umm...before they voted against it...and for it..or against it...are you to suggest that the wee little congressman have no mental culpability?? You make me laugh out loud T-shot..that is a good one!!
 
I know it's really clintons fault that 9/11 happened at all and more alarming, he's keeping Bush and our army from capturing OBL. . .

Wait, let me get you some more cool-aid. . .
 
"Oh and might I add that things are going quite well in Iraq."

Brilliant statement typically.02. We're f'ing near where we were at before dumb-dumb and friends went after the WRONG target. Osama is just laughing his Saudi ass off right now.

RUS
 
Yes and I can hardly wait for the dem to take office. I can see it now, two days after the ball is over and the new pictures are on the desk in the oval office, the headlines will read after a lengthy phone call involving diplomatic talks, OBL has turned himself in to authorities to answer for his crimes against america. Hopefully T will have passed the bar by then and can represent him with the "Bush made me do it" defense. Please pass the Kool Aide when you done with it T.
 
Do you suppose if we had launched a military offensive on a stratigically neutral target like oh I don't know New Zealand, OBL would have been making videos warning us to get out? Obviously he has/had no connections to Iraq.
 
So what is your point 1911? Mine is the rally cry now in the USA is "we are winning" "Winning What???" the war on terror??? Bullsh!t!!! we don't even know where to fight it! 4000 of our best & brightest dead. Same sh!t as vietnam!

This country needs a leader (right now) I personally don't know who that is, but it sure ain't George Bush and it sure ain't Harry Reid!

Christ! Where is Linclon or FDR when you need them!

RUS
 
Point is I will accept that Bush has messed up. But he has also done some things right. At least the best way he knew how because candidly it is a complex war with an enemy we have never faced that has no explicit ties to any particular target. That being said since they made the first strike I have not had to build a fallout shelter in my backyard yet. I can't help but think that is no accident.
 
Maybe OBL is like the buck with 15 inch bases...we have to wait for him to get back from the taxidermist out of respect. :)
 
I'D SAY SOMETHING!!!

BUT RUS HAS ALREADY SAID IT!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
"they made the first strike"

There you go! 1911 my friend .... now define THEY, and let's BOMB their asses off!!!!

Post Script: 1911, you probably don't think we're friends! I don't like bobcat either! LOL

RUS
 
I knew if we played at this long enough bessy would drop by for a word. . . .
 
clorideRus;

You better be very careful about wanting a leader like FDR. Go back in history and you will find that FDR was very much a "Hawk" when it came to going to war.
FDR wanted to get involved into WW11 long before Pearl Harbor. He wanted to take on Hilter when the Germans overran Poland and France. This is documented with his talks to Churchhill. His big problem was the vast marjority of American citizens did not want to get involved in a war in Europe. Sounds a little like today concerning the middle east.
After Pearl Harbor, he also declared war on Germany even though it was Japan that attacked us. Another tibit of history. Hilter did not want to get involved in a war with us until he had conquered all of Europe and Russia. His plan was to take us on after he conquered those countries and had their vital resorces. His time table was to attack us in 1944 after he felt he would have further advanced his super weapons such as the ME-102, V-2 Rockets and long range bombers and the atomic bomb. Darn if that does not sound like Iran.
I have to agree with you, FDR was a good leader, but liberals would not have liked the fact he was a "hawk" and not a "Dove" when it came to going to war. The only thing that helped him get his wishes was the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and the majority of the population in this country changed their tune big time about going to war and getting revenge.
I am also glad that we did not end up going by Hitler's timetable, he may have became strong enought that today we would be speaking German instead of English. History has a way of repeating itself over and over.

RELH
 
You guys here something ?????? School Bells?



If huntin is a sport.....Well your lookin at an athlete!
 
Yep, and since I'm the buss driver, sit down and hang on, when I stop the buss at school, i'll tell you to get off but until then, stay in your seat!
 
>Yep, and since I'm the buss
>driver, sit down and hang
>on, when I stop the
>buss at school, i'll tell
>you to get off but
>until then, stay in your
>seat!


Nope, different bus. Yours is too short, LOL





If huntin is a sport.....Well your lookin at an athlete!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-08 AT 10:47AM (MST)[p]So the lesson RELH is trying to make is FDR and Truman were dems who knew when to fight, were to fight and how to fight. on the other hand Bush doesn't know where to fight or how to fight. that is what you were saying right? or did I just read the truth into your story by mistake?
 
I also believe there WWII was about humans, GW's war is about revenge, power, and oil.
 
Every one of us just believes what we want so are'nt we just throwin jabs now? I'm done arguing and commenting on anything political.UPS just delivered my new Space Rain suit from Cabelas, I'm gonna go outside and try it out since this is probably the worst condidtions they'll ever see. We'll be arguing bout politics till huntin season.




If huntin is a sport.....Well your lookin at an athlete!
 
so the thousands that died at the hands of radical muslims does not count if we accept your argument. As for Dudes statement, you can take my post two ways. Your way is one argument, and history later showing Bush was right about taking on Afganistan and Iraq is another.
Tfinal oil is a big consideration in todays political decisions. It was the fear of pissing off the Saudies and they cutting our oil off that led to Slick Willie deciding not to strike Osama's terr camp. Seems like oil is a big thing with your Dems also.

RELH
 
of course oil is a big deal, you'd be a fool to discount it, but as has been discussed 100 x or more here, I dont remember Bush telling us that the reason he wanted to cause the death of 100,000 of thousands of people was for their oil.
 
Its ok RELH, I found out where T-F and Dude are gettin there info. Hey T-F remember what you said about not believing everything you read.


taliban_cosmotaliban.gif


If huntin is a sport.....Well your lookin at an athlete!
 
Maybe if Bush had read this publication before we attacked Iraq he would have known Sunni and Shiite don't get along too well. that may have saved a few American lives right there. most of what he knew about Muslims he learned on Saturday morning cartoons, send him a copy .
 
Better yet, because Hardway is the publisher and editor, send him a couple free subscriptions. . .
 

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